So I just Read the New X-men Legacy 262 and I have to say, it is shocking how hypocritical Wolverine has become. Everyone at Westchester for that matter seems to have amnesia about how things have come to pass. When Hope first arrived at Utopia, Cyclops shielded her like a fragile piece of glass, constantly tell her not to get involved in anything and keeping her in the background. He even temporarily removed Rogue from the roster and reprimanded her for allowing Hope to get involved with the fight with Bastion (even then Hope forced Rogues hand). Afterwards, Hope demanded her own team and later in a brilliant display of power let Cyclops know she can do whatever she wants. Yet if you listen to the conventional wisdom, Cyclops is the one who is forcing Hope and her team to become soldiers, as if she and her team have no free will of their own. Wolverine's words were quite ironic "All he talks about is how we are Targets, How we gotta be ready for war and what we're doing here is reckless and stupid"

Umm.. Yea Pretty much Wolvie.. That sounds about right lol. How many times since Hope has arrived has both Westchester and Utopia been attacked? Hell, how many times were they attacked BEFORE Hope arrived. I mean seriously am I not understanding something? When did he and the rest of the squad become so incredibly Naive? I especially love the line where Wolverine says "This aint a classroom its a battlefield, your letting your personal feelings compromise the mission" umm... really? After whining about how Cyclops is too militaristic in his thinking you say that?? It's getting to the point where I am beginning to loathe Wolverines character. It's almost as if he is having some type of nervous breakdown. Problem is there doesn't seem to be anyone defending Cyclops actual position. He has become scapegoat #1 The Schism serious wouldn't be so difficult to swallow if everything wasn't so one-sided.

He is a hypocrite.

Short answer: He is.

So are Professor X, Magneto, Cyclops, Storm, Beast etc.

Cyclops is the least hypocritical of them all.

The point is that he doesn't want Kids fighting, that's what he meant by "This Ain't a Classroom, its a battlefield". He doesn't want the Kids to fight, he wants the adults to do the fighting for them instead.

And Cyclops hasn't become a scapegoat, as a matter of fact, most of the elder X-Men remained with Cyclops.

What I don't like about Wolverine was when he said "he's got them brainwashed that they think they're soldiers". Well he's got the kids in his school brainwashed into thinking that they don't have a target on their backs and that they can live a normal life.

@Steps said:

What I don't like about Wolverine was when he said "he's got them brainwashed that they think they're soldiers". Well he's got the kids in his school brainwashed into thinking that they don't have a target on their backs and that they can live a normal life.

He's also the man who's wondered around with female, teenaged side-kicks for years.

@Steps said:

What I don't like about Wolverine was when he said "he's got them brainwashed that they think they're soldiers". Well he's got the kids in his school brainwashed into thinking that they don't have a target on their backs and that they can live a normal life.

Exactly!!

Lets not forget this little word of advise from Logan

@John Valentine said:

@Steps said:

What I don't like about Wolverine was when he said "he's got them brainwashed that they think they're soldiers". Well he's got the kids in his school brainwashed into thinking that they don't have a target on their backs and that they can live a normal life.

He's also the man who's wondered around with female, teenaged side-kicks for years.

I've already addressed this in a different topic long ago. Logan has been known to be a real manwhore, the girls are underaged, Logan has decelerated aging, girls become legal, Logan still won't need Viagra by then. Logan uses his manwhore powers and hits that.

Obviously Logan builds a bond with them so that when they grow older he can hit that :P

@BewilderingBeing said:

@Steps said:

What I don't like about Wolverine was when he said "he's got them brainwashed that they think they're soldiers". Well he's got the kids in his school brainwashed into thinking that they don't have a target on their backs and that they can live a normal life.

Exactly!!

I wouldn't have had a problem with it if Wolverine didn't act all high and mighty as he said it but he did.

@Steps said:

@BewilderingBeing said:

@Steps said:

What I don't like about Wolverine was when he said "he's got them brainwashed that they think they're soldiers". Well he's got the kids in his school brainwashed into thinking that they don't have a target on their backs and that they can live a normal life.

Exactly!!

I wouldn't have had a problem with it if Wolverine didn't act all high and mighty as he said it but he did.

This.

@InnerVenom123 said:

He is a hypocrite.

Don't forget Beast. He is also a hypocrite.

Almost forgot about how in New X-men, Wolverine's advise to Scott regarding the kids and what they're going through. "Either they learn or the die". But when Idie is watching Sentinels on TV and Scott wants her to learn what the threat looks like Wolverine gets on his high horse and says kids shouldn't watch these things.

@John Valentine said:

Short answer: He is.

So are Professor X, Magneto, Cyclops, Storm, Beast etc.

Cyclops is the least hypocritical of them all.

This.

@ReVamp: Yeah Wolverine only wants himself and teenaged girls in combat situations

@joshmightbe said:

@ReVamp: Yeah Wolverine only wants himself and teenaged girls in combat situations

Explain?

@ReVamp: Kitty Pryde, Jubilee, Armor, X-23, Amiko

@joshmightbe said:

@ReVamp: Yeah Wolverine only wants himself and teenaged girls in combat situations

@joshmightbe said:

@ReVamp: Kitty Pryde, Jubilee, Armor, X-23, Amiko

Is he doing that now? No.

I've gone through this many times, he's not against them being in combat situations, he's just against children dealing with this level of treatment and living their lives as soldiers. As for the scan, because people are misunderstanding it, he's saying that if Armor gets in danger then she shouldn't risk her life trying to capture him alive and should do what she has to if that ever interferes with her life.

@ReVamp: My point is that Wolverine's sudden interest in keeping these kids safe was kind of out of the blue and in the past he has placed many kids in dangerous situations, though not as many kids as Batman has endangered so at least he's not the worst about it

@joshmightbe: It was kind of out of the blue but I think it was a direct reaction of Nightcrawler dying as well as him seeing Cyclops go "too far" (I'm not going to discuss that, its obviously biased) and he decided to be opposition.

@ReVamp: Scott ask of Idie, "do what she had to". So no it's not a misunderstanding, same thing different out come, Armor didn't have to make that choice in that situation.

This is talk about hypocrisy, not who wrong or right because they both share that equally

@Onihana said:

@ReVamp: Scott ask of Idie, "do what she had to". So no it's not a misunderstanding, same thing different out come, Armor didn't have to make that choice in that situation.

This is talk about hypocrisy, not who wrong or right because they both share that equally

This isn't a talk about whether Scott is a hypocrite, so that situation with Idie has nothing to do. He said that IF Armor had to make a decision, she shouldn't risk her life.

@ReVamp said:

@joshmightbe: It was kind of out of the blue but I think it was a direct reaction of Nightcrawler dying as well as him seeing Cyclops go "too far" (I'm not going to discuss that, its obviously biased) and he decided to be opposition.

I get the impression that it's something he's come to realize over the past few years, specifically following M-Day.

For example, he initially objected to having X-23 on X-Force, which was directly after Messiah Complex (2008). (But he continued to have Elixir, a mind-lost Warren and a pregnant and traumatized Rahne on his squad).

@ReVamp said:

@joshmightbe said:

@ReVamp: Kitty Pryde, Jubilee, Armor, X-23, Amiko

Is he doing that now? No.

I've gone through this many times, he's not against them being in combat situations, he's just against children dealing with this level of treatment and living their lives as soldiers. As for the scan, because people are misunderstanding it, he's saying that if Armor gets in danger then she shouldn't risk her life trying to capture him alive and should do what she has to if that ever interferes with her life.

Sorry maybe some confusion between what i said but maybe this will help. This what i was speaking about it has nothing to do with Scott telling her to "do what she had to" it is Logan reaction to the situation, and his reaction is hippocratic.

@John Valentine said:

@ReVamp said:

@joshmightbe: It was kind of out of the blue but I think it was a direct reaction of Nightcrawler dying as well as him seeing Cyclops go "too far" (I'm not going to discuss that, its obviously biased) and he decided to be opposition.

I get the impression that it's something he's come to realize over the past few years, specifically following M-Day.

For example, he initially objected to having X-23 on X-Force, which was directly after Messiah Complex (2008). (But he continued to have Elixir, a mind-lost Warren and a pregnant and traumatized Rahne on his squad).

I agree. Also, Warren and Rahne are adults and Elixir was just healing at home base. Not saying its morally right, but its not the set of morals that are being discussed.

@Onihana said:

Sorry maybe some confusion between what i said but maybe this will help. This what i was speaking about it has nothing to do with Scott telling her to "do what she had to" it is Logan reaction to the situation, and his reaction is hippocratic.

Alright. Now explain your point. Why do you think its hypocritical? (I'm not saying its not, but I have yet to see a valid reason in this thread)

@ReVamp said:

@John Valentine said:

@ReVamp said:

@joshmightbe: It was kind of out of the blue but I think it was a direct reaction of Nightcrawler dying as well as him seeing Cyclops go "too far" (I'm not going to discuss that, its obviously biased) and he decided to be opposition.

I get the impression that it's something he's come to realize over the past few years, specifically following M-Day.

For example, he initially objected to having X-23 on X-Force, which was directly after Messiah Complex (2008). (But he continued to have Elixir, a mind-lost Warren and a pregnant and traumatized Rahne on his squad).

I agree. Also, Warren and Rahne are adults and Elixir was just healing at home base. Not saying its morally right, but its not the set of morals that are being discussed.

Elixir was actually used in field missions; During Old Ghosts, Messiah War, Not Forgotten and Necrosha.

@Onihana said:

Lets not forget this little word of advise from Logan

Hilarious.. I knew he was a Hypocrite but wow.. Also isn't there a bit of Irony that Wolverine, a man who has probably killed hundreds in his lifetime is lecturing anyone on morality? Has Cyclops even killed anyone? Other than his own wife as she begged him to?

@BewilderingBeing said:

Has Cyclops even killed anyone? Other than his own wife as she begged him to?

He mercifully killed Ugly John, everyone's favourite multi-faced Australian mutant.

He's also killed aliens, lots of aliens. I'm sure he's probably crippled people through the use of his powers (either directly or causing rubble to fall on him etc) too. But, most morally relevant in this situation, he's sentenced X-Force to kill people. Also, the issue in question is really Scott's willingness to allow children to fight for his/mutantkind's cause.

@John Valentine said:

Elixir was actually used in field missions; During Old Ghosts, Messiah War, Not Forgotten and Necrosha.

IIRC he wasn't used willingly, didn't that sh*t just happen? (I don't remember)

@ReVamp: Every one is a hypocrite in comics, we no this, nothing you can do about it.

Logan tells Armor that "Cyke's a good guy and you should listen to him, but if it comes down to it with some bastard out there, you kill him without even thinking about it." He is telling that to as kid that is 16 or so years old. With in that issue Armor didn't have to make the choice to kill someone, wasn't needed.

Idie now in a situation were her and other peoples life's on the line and Scott tells Idie "to do what you feel you have to", so She ends up killing them.

The same thought pattern, different words.

So the reason I say it's a hippocracy is that he is telling/showing two different people two do, two different things. Difference is Armor didn't have to kill anyone and he had Logan with her at the same time.

While Idie is alone, scared in a life or death situation, and he wants her to do nothing. Not only is it hippocratical it's in my option irresponsible.

@Onihana:

He is telling that to as kid that is 16 or so years old. With in that issue Armor didn't have to make the choice to kill someone, wasn't needed.

Yes, she did. That's the point. If her life was ever at risk, he was telling her that she didn't have to hold back. Ie, its better that you stay alive but we end up capturing the target dead than you dying just because you were trying to keep the target safe.

Idie now in a situation were her and other peoples life's on the line and Scott tells Idie "to do what you feel you have to", so She ends up killing them.

No, because Idie was safe. Its just the others that were knocked out.

The same thought pattern, different words.
So the reason I say it's a hippocracy is that he is telling/showing two different people two do, two different things.

He wasn't the situations were completely different, with completely different people.

Difference is Armor didn't have to kill anyone and he had Logan with her at the same time.

He wasn't telling her to kill, he was telling her to keep herself safe. That's what he wants, the safety of the X-Children. If Armor had to kill, to keep herself safe, instead of capturing the target alive (which is harder) then she should do that. Idie on the other hand was hidden during this time and Wolvie and Cyke were heading in that direction.

While Idie is alone, scared in a life or death situation, and he wants her to do nothing.

She wasn't in a life or death situation. She was hidden and help was coming.

@Onihana said:

@ReVamp: Every one is a hypocrite in comics, we no this, nothing you can do about it.

Logan tells Armor that "Cyke's a good guy and you should listen to him, but if it comes down to it with some bastard out there, you kill him without even thinking about it." He is telling that to as kid that is 16 or so years old. With in that issue Armor didn't have to make the choice to kill someone, wasn't needed.

Idie now in a situation were her and other peoples life's on the line and Scott tells Idie "to do what you feel you have to", so She ends up killing them.

The same thought pattern, different words.

So the reason I say it's a hippocracy is that he is telling/showing two different people two do, two different things. Difference is Armor didn't have to kill anyone and he had Logan with her at the same time.

While Idie is alone, scared in a life or death situation, and he wants her to do nothing. Not only is it hippocratical it's in my option irresponsible.

This, I couldn't have said it better myself.

@hectorsquall: Then perhaps you could defend the position as well?

@ReVamp

Where is it said he was keeping Armor safe within in any of that?

Idie was not safe is was hiding behind a showcase surrounded by people. With a bomb, we don't no if it was set, if it was we don't know the time on it, we do know it goes off.

Gallery

@ReVamp:

No seriously,

@Onihana said:

Idie now in a situation were her and other peoples life's on the line and Scott tells Idie "to do what you feel you have to", so She ends up killing them.

That pretty much sums it up. Maybe she was hiding and wasn't in a life or death situation, but her friends where going to be killed and there was no way for Wolverine to be here in time to save them. (He was in a bar drinking 5 minutes before)

Cyclops basically told her to kill the bad guys, but that was that or seeing her friends get killed because she didn't act, and THAT would have traumatized her.

Wolverine is an hypocrite because she saved lives out there, yes she killed the bad guys but ask anybody, if they could save their friends by killing bad guys, they would do it, even if they are teenagers.

@hectorsquall: I don't mind being wrong. But I countered the points in a manner which I think it valid.

@ReVamp: Yes, your points were valid and I agree with what you said about Onihana's post, but I still think that Wolverine is an hypocrite and I defended my position.

PS: The pic was just a joke by the way, I didn't really mean it :)

Logan is a hypocrite, and I love the fact that his school is consistently attacked, proving it's unsafe for children to attend.

@BewilderingBeing: she was already in a bad situation! what was he supposed to say: dont kill, be killed?? damn some people. she was as he stated not in the front line so she didnt have to take the bulk of it only what got past them. and whats this with complaining about him mentoring girls ?? so what? all of them turned out good, they learned a lot from him, sure they were sometimes put in danger but he never let them get hurt and he never tried anything with them, that pedobear pic was uncalled for.

and the x-force comments: psylocke was helping and offering control to warren and he wanted in and rhane didnt start out pregnant when she joined, it happened.

I don't think hypocrite was the intended direction. It was that people change. Though, when someone changes, grows, learns, ect, they are a hypocrite to everyone outside them by default, as well as a liar and host of other things due to simply not acting as they did before. If I recall the motivation was set in Wolverine's Revenge when he not only discovered he had misbegotten children, but his actions and ignorance (as well as his own hands) caused their deaths. Wolverine displays this personality shift directly after that. Outside they were setting the foundation to sell an X-Men title where they're cash cow Wolverine was the central star, running with the Wolverine as guest star sells books and other characters concept (which actually works well), and the writer clearly didn't cover every detail (which would make for a very boring comic), nor could lay out the characters entire history anyways (unless time travel really works, I don't know).

It seems like every few weeks there's a forum post about how one character or another is a hypocrite.  I find it curious that so much attention is paid to Logan displaying this particular personality flaw as opposed to being a casual killer?
 
This is really more a matter of a change in writing or editing staff.  It's just character-coding to fit the creator's outlook.

@John Valentine said:

Short answer: He is.

So are Professor X, Magneto, Cyclops, Storm, Beast etc.

Cyclops is the least hypocritical of them all.

Pretty much. Which is why Schism is horrible if you take it the least bit seriously.

@MrMiracle77 said:

It seems like every few weeks there's a forum post about how one character or another is a hypocrite. I find it curious that so much attention is paid to Logan displaying this particular personality flaw as opposed to being a casual killer? This is really more a matter of a change in writing or editing staff. It's just character-coding to fit the creator's outlook.

I would say this is a bad thing, though. If random writers just ignored a characters' history and established personality just to make them take positions that aren't borne up by their experiences/outlooks outside their pet storylines, it undermines everything they are trying to achieve.

@ReVamp said:

@joshmightbe said:

@ReVamp: Kitty Pryde, Jubilee, Armor, X-23, Amiko

Is he doing that now? No.

I've gone through this many times, he's not against them being in combat situations, he's just against children dealing with this level of treatment and living their lives as soldiers. As for the scan, because people are misunderstanding it, he's saying that if Armor gets in danger then she shouldn't risk her life trying to capture him alive and should do what she has to if that ever interferes with her life.

My feelings exactly. He also has this thing about wanting to be the sinner for all the mutants, so no one else has to be the one.

He's not a hypocrite the same way a city in desperate need of taxi drivers won't start letting 7 year olds become taxi drivers even though the need for taxi drivers is really high. Except here's the other thing, hypocrisy can be tricky. Its not that unreasonable for some characters to have an air of hypocrisy about them, and because of shifting writers almost all the X-Men are. Which is good, because it echoes real life people. So it grounds them a bit and gives them flaws. Wolverine is really old and thinks life experience entitles his do as I say not as I have done attitude and the validity if which can vary issue to issue. Cyclops use to be vehemently against killing enemies no matter what, until writers thought he was too plain and boring and tried to make him more edgy. One can say that's hypocrisy, one can say that they tried to make him more popular by making him more like Wolverine, or one could say that as a tactician and leader he grew with time and made a conscious decision to change his view or his philosophy just evolved over time etc etc similar things could be said of Storm, Xavier, Magneto - almost any character with more than one writer. 

The Wolverine versus Cyclops premise is poorly conceived in general. He served on X-force for ages right under all the X-men's noses, if anything he's one of Scott's main co-conspirators. He willingly carried out vendettas Scott had under the guise of wanting to protect Laura from becoming a blood-thirsty mercenary yet surely one would think a "warrior" of his caliber could've found some other way to wriggle her out of that situation. He also killed his best friend's mother (Mystique) simply because she betrayed him just aside of FOREVER ago and had no qualms whatsoever about bypassing the law to put her down. Really? Shouldn't a terrorist go to SHIELD and not the X-men? And funnily enough, Magneto has killed far more people than Mystique and Scott's never sic'd Wolverine on him. If Wolverine were really so moral he would've seen the flimsy sense of logic holding together his sense of justice far earlier on.

Basically, Logan and Scott are both quite dim and deserve to be off in there own separate two-person faction while the rest of the X-men take care of business. That won't happen so long as Wolverine "sells" comics but since he's in every single goddamn one along with Cyke...how exactly are we to know they're really adding all that much anyways? There isn't another option.

@Steps said:

@John Valentine said:

@Steps said:

What I don't like about Wolverine was when he said "he's got them brainwashed that they think they're soldiers". Well he's got the kids in his school brainwashed into thinking that they don't have a target on their backs and that they can live a normal life.

He's also the man who's wondered around with female, teenaged side-kicks for years.

I've already addressed this in a different topic long ago. Logan has been known to be a real manwhore, the girls are underaged, Logan has decelerated aging, girls become legal, Logan still won't need Viagra by then. Logan uses his manwhore powers and hits that.

Obviously Logan builds a bond with them so that when they grow older he can hit that :P

/facepalm

@WildValentine said:

@Steps said:

@John Valentine said:

@Steps said:

What I don't like about Wolverine was when he said "he's got them brainwashed that they think they're soldiers". Well he's got the kids in his school brainwashed into thinking that they don't have a target on their backs and that they can live a normal life.

He's also the man who's wondered around with female, teenaged side-kicks for years.

I've already addressed this in a different topic long ago. Logan has been known to be a real manwhore, the girls are underaged, Logan has decelerated aging, girls become legal, Logan still won't need Viagra by then. Logan uses his manwhore powers and hits that.

Obviously Logan builds a bond with them so that when they grow older he can hit that :P

/facepalm

me thinks you think me serious