@dangallant984: I understand , for me it just doesn't work, I grew up with them as a couple.
X-Men
Team » X-Men appears in 13410 issues.
The X-Men are a superhero team of mutants founded by Professor Charles Xavier. They are dedicated to helping fellow mutants and sworn to protect a world that fears and hates them.
How do you feel, when popular couples and friendships are ruined
@akbogert said:
@dangallant984: If you read clear statements that I understand other people do not share my perspective, and still say I seem to "feel pretty entitled to [my] opinion of what other people should and shouldn't do," then nothing more I say will be of any benefit. As it turns out, having a non-relativistic worldview does mean I believe some things are categorically right and categorically wrong. Intrinsic to that belief is an understanding that yes, there are things people do that I believe they absolutely should not do. All I've said here is that people who do not share my belief ought to phrase their own ceremonies in a way which reflects those alternate beliefs. If you truly feel that I am out of line for denouncing blatant hypocrisy, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to recant anything I've said. As it stands, I believe this particular exchange has outlived its usefulness, and is contributing nothing positive to the overall thread. If you'd like to pursue it further, feel free to PM me, though again I get a sense that there's little to be gained. The subject of this thread is a lot broader than just marriages, or even romance, and it's certainly not about philosophy or religion.
and why should they do that? for you?
and you still haven't answered my question, which makes me think you haven't really thought about it.
*sniff* and that hurts my feelings..
@Avenger85: Political soap box. Mockery. I could go on.
@DarkxSeraph said:
"Kids" aren't really the target audience for Comics anymore. Save the 'Adventures' series or the like. I mean, really... do you think X-Force: Sex and Violence was a kid's book?
I agree, but at the same time that lack of mainstream appeal detracts sales and long term readers.
@dangallant984: Well actually Im not "unhappy" about it, it is just all the more reason to express myself by not buying the titles. So "unhappy" might be a strong term to use. While I do know some "inconsistent" people for the most part everyone I know is the essentially same person they have always been with very few going through some kind of major catharsis of some sort, which honestly does not show very well in comics. However to me, pulls me back to reality to read the inconsistency, it reaffirms my belief instead of suspending it. It can be very polarizing.
@chasereis: Yeah you got a point there.
Anyways, do you think that via ANXM Young Scott/Jean will get back, and Kitty-Collossus too ?
oh hell, They even broke up HAVOC & POLARIS LOL
@dangallant984: I dont mean to intrude on your conversation, but the answer is (to me) it exists for the sake of the couple and no one else. However beyond that frame I'm not sure what you might asking additionally.
@Avenger85: I really hated that Iceman and Polaris thing, I feel ya on that one.
I actually kind of like it. It gets so boring seeing the same old couples. It's fun to shake things up a little, like with Bobby and Kitty. Bobby isn't pathetically hung up on Lorna anymore, and Kitty isn't dating someone who's more hung up on his sister than his girlfriend. Win- Win.
I personally never liked it whenever my favorite couples and friendships are all broken up since I have become so fond of them over the years. The friendship I probably missed the most was the friendship between Wolverine, Nightcrawler and Colossus since they are so hilarious together. Ever since Nightcrawler died, I haven't really seen Wolverine and Colossus really talk with each other that much and it's sad because I loved it when they talked with each other. I really hope in the future stories, we get to see Nightcrawler, Colossus and Wolverine come back together as friends again.
As for couples, oh boy, I'm just so angry at Marvel at the moment that I can't really read any of the newer stories without getting so upset at how these couples ended up at. The couples I really miss are Kitty/Colossus, Rogue/Gambit, Emma Frost/Cyclops and many more. I really wish that these couples would get back together again and Marvel at least tries to attempt to make interesting stories about these couples without resorting to breaking them up just to keep things interesting.
Jean and Scott, well it was okay. it feels like it was needed. Jean turning into Dark Phoenix, and died for multiple times. I see the reason why writers need to break their relationship.
Emma and Scott, this. I really don't understand why he (Bendis) has to destroy their relationship. I feel like Bendis has some issues with Scott turning into a villainous character. Seriously, why? I wish AvX didn't really happen, that event was bull****.
And please bring back Kurt! I love his character.
@Rabbitearsblog said:
As for couples, oh boy, I'm just so angry at Marvel at the moment that I can't really read any of the newer stories without getting so upset at how these couples ended up at. The couples I really miss are Kitty/Colossus, Rogue/Gambit, Emma Frost/Cyclops and many more. I really wish that these couples would get back together again and Marvel at least tries to attempt to make interesting stories about these couples without resorting to breaking them up just to keep things interesting.
I guess, for me, the long and the short of it is that I'm interested in these characters whether they are in relationships with each other or not, and in the case of some of these characters (say, Gambit and Rogue), I actually find them more interesting separately.
I mean, back in the 80's, which a lot of people still think of as the X-men's golden age, there were no superhero couplings within the X-men, and the characters were arguably at their most interesting. And for characters like Cyclops, Xavier, and even Wolverine, getting married was actually a reason to leave the team.
@chasereis said:
@PhoenixoftheTides: You mean in Secret Wars Piotr x Kitty breakup?
Yes. This is a good example because the reasons for the break up, Piotr falling in love with the alien healer, was not handled in a way that I would like, but how Kitty dealt with it was done pretty well. This was that issue where Kitty was telling Piotr what she thought an adult would say, while the readers could see her emotional turmoil in thought bubbles. So that was an example of the catalyst being lame but the fallout feeling legitimate, so it's 50/50. An example of a 100% bad handling would be Storm and Black Panther just breaking up out of the blue with stilted dialogue before, during and after the incident.
@dangallant984 said:
@Rabbitearsblog said:
As for couples, oh boy, I'm just so angry at Marvel at the moment that I can't really read any of the newer stories without getting so upset at how these couples ended up at. The couples I really miss are Kitty/Colossus, Rogue/Gambit, Emma Frost/Cyclops and many more. I really wish that these couples would get back together again and Marvel at least tries to attempt to make interesting stories about these couples without resorting to breaking them up just to keep things interesting.
I guess, for me, the long and the short of it is that I'm interested in these characters whether they are in relationships with each other or not, and in the case of some of these characters (say, Gambit and Rogue), I actually find them more interesting separately.
I mean, back in the 80's, which a lot of people still think of as the X-men's golden age, there were no superhero couplings within the X-men, and the characters were arguably at their most interesting. And for characters like Cyclops, Xavier, and even Wolverine, getting married was actually a reason to leave the team.
I liked the idea about how the X-Men characters were actually thinking about getting married since it felt so natural at the time. Even though it's interesting right now to see what the characters would do when they're not in a relationship, everything just feels so forced in order to create some kind of drama or story for the characters.
@PhoenixoftheTides: Yes. I see your point. This particular incident didn't bother me as much as Scott and Jean, as Piotr and Kitty were very young and the "mistake" felt mostly organic. However the way it was written was slightly open ended too, which you don't see much anymore in "X"-universe couples. Storm and BP was a giant joke from the start, sorry all but it was a marketing marriage from hell.
Interesting tidbit. Every single relationship, both couples and friendships, listed by the OP takes place in the X-Men comic books. Every single one.
Ensemble cast books typically focus a lot on the inner team dynamics, instead of just the villain of the week. If you pick up a Wolverine comic book with Wolverine and Sabretooth on the comic, you know they're going to scrap for 10 pages. If you pick up an Uncanny X-Men comic book with Wolverine and Sabretooth on the cover, Wolverine is probably going to have some other X-Man trying to talk some sense into him, and the two of them will have a disagreement of philosphy. That's the nature of team books.
I think rather than complaining that those team books aren't allowed to stagnate and passively maintain the status quo, we should applaud the writing which was so good to make us really care about these relationships. If two characters break up and you don't care, then that means that their entire relationship was pretty much a failed story.
Just like in real life, couples come and go. I, for one, am glad that Marvel has pushed a little harder to make these relationships matter, unlike some other titles where they basically play some reality show dating game of trading partners every couple of months like it doesn't matter.
@Sharkbite said:
Ensemble cast books typically focus a lot on the inner team dynamics, instead of just the villain of the week. If you pick up a Wolverine comic book with Wolverine and Sabretooth on the comic, you know they're going to scrap for 10 pages. If you pick up an Uncanny X-Men comic book with Wolverine and Sabretooth on the cover, Wolverine is probably going to have some other X-Man trying to talk some sense into him, and the two of them will have a disagreement of philosphy. That's the nature of team books.
I think rather than complaining that those team books aren't allowed to stagnate and passively maintain the status quo, we should applaud the writing which was so good to make us really care about these relationships. If two characters break up and you don't care, then that means that their entire relationship was pretty much a failed story.
Just like in real life, couples come and go. I, for one, am glad that Marvel has pushed a little harder to make these relationships matter, unlike some other titles where they basically play some reality show dating game of trading partners every couple of months like it doesn't matter.
this; I agree with all of this.
@dangallant984: I don't, because it does truly fit the comics industry practices as a whole, especially with the big two. Even statistically, it is impossible for every comics relationship / marriage to end, even in Hollywood. Comics tend to (tritely) cater to single people, because that is their target audience. Single people with disposable income. Not trying to offend single people with time and money. I'm just stating empirically proven data.
The reason people get upset is we as fans becomes invested in the characters and their relationships over time. I get really irritated when changes are made and it is almost at the whim of a writer and things change even if there was nothing leading up to it. Schism is a great example where big changes came out of nowhere. Up until then Logan was in lock step with Cyclops decisions. He even lead a death squad for him. It was only until schism that Wolverine suddenly had this completely contrived revelation that the young mutants should not be uses and soldiers and live so harshly. This was clear an editorial decision but they executed it so poorly that very few people were happy with it.
@chasereis said:
@dangallant984: I don't, because it does truly fit the comics industry practices as a whole, especially with the big two. Even statistically, it is impossible for every comics relationship / marriage to end, even in Hollywood. Comics tend to (tritely) cater to single people, because that is their target audience. Single people with disposable income. Not trying to offend single people with time and money. I'm just stating empirically proven data.
I don't disagree with any of that, it just doesn't effect my view of it one way or the other.
My only concern is whether or not the story is worthwhile; the how and why of it much less so.
i like luke cage & jessica jones they are an interesting couple and they seem like a real couple. black panther and storm i don't know much about their relationship except, that they are divorced and to me their relationship as a marriage couple never got the full development like cyclops & jean grey.
@chasereis said:
@dangallant984: Ha ha I KNEW you were gonna say that...getting predictable in your old age, mon ami.
yeah, it's a growing concern of mine.. but hopefully, eventually enough people will know what I'm going to say that I won't have to. :P
@chasereis said:
@dangallant984: So meaning if I ask you a question I shouldn't expect a reply or that I should take a betting pool to see who close it will be to the mark?
no, but my reply wasn't to a question, in that case, it was to a statement.
I'm always happy to answer questions if I can.
@dangallant984: Damn I knew you going to say that too. Perhaps you are a latent psionic who is telepathically (subconsciously) beaming your answer prior to typing it straight into my brain! ANYWAY...still it would be a real break from the norm to see a permanent coupling. Whether or not they should remain in the spotlight because of key demographics might be another issue (no pun intended).
Break ups seem to be the go to for writers cause i think after a certain point one gets tired of seeing/writing a pair together and want to experiment with them, and they can get something easily emotional out of a break up without having to dig deep into the well.You pretty much have to be already married ala a reed/sue to survive.I try not to care much,you win some(magneto/rouge break up)you lose some (storm/T'challa break up)Surprised Bucky/widow aren't up there.They screwed that in such a silly way
@chasereis said:
@dangallant984: Damn I knew you going to say that too. Perhaps you are a latent psionic who is telepathically (subconsciously) beaming your answer prior to typing it straight into my brain! ANYWAY...still it would be a real break from the norm to see a permanent coupling. Whether or not they should remain in the spotlight because of key demographics might be another issue (no pun intended).
I do like it when characters leave together. Havoc & Polaris, Banshee & Moira, Forge & Mystique, Angel & Psylocke, Angel & Beak, even Cyclops & Jean a few times; it makes you feel like those characters are getting their happy endings without becoming stagnant in the spotlight.
The X-Men is the most over-the-top franchise in terms of relationships. Not that this is necessarily bad.
@chasereis said:
@dangallant984: Indeed while there is no such thing as "happy ending", it is better the relegate the characters to a "normal" human ending of settling down to some variation or level.
exactly. it's watching their relationships play out in the spotlight *looks over at Gambit and Rogue, shakes head* that makes them so tedious, stagnant, and generally uninteresting.
@chasereis: I guess 'normal' translates to "boring" for Marvel writers lol.
I mean, just think what major cataclysm would happen if Scott/Jean, Havok/Polaris, Archangel/Psylocke, Kitty/Colossus one day said, "Hey, forget all this crazy superhero business, why don't we just take a break from it for a while and settle down, doing something normal and raise a family etc".
Answer : nothing much lol. They'd just retire and live a normal life while other superheroes could take their place and do super-heroic shit.
Claremont actually planned this for Cyclops, but the editors wanted him to not ride into the sunset with his girlfriend, so they created the whole Madelyn incident for him...
@chasereis said:
@dangallant984: Older characters once aligned properly need to move OUT of the spotlight and into supporting roles.
That's how it generally has worked in the past, although that doesn't mean they have to leave the story altogether; I'm a pretty big fan of these characters settling back into more support type roles, like how Abigail and the Beast seem to be.
It also selfishly makes me hope that Storm, Psylocke, Wolverine, and Kitty never find lasting happiness :P
@dangallant984: Well I dont (necessarily) mean a "ride off into the sunset", but REALLY these writers need to quit switching out characters as "main" trying to share the spotlight between the ENTIRE cast. Honestly Xavier, Scott, Jean, Bobby, Warren, Hank, Alex, Lorna, Ororo and to some degree Logan NEED to be supporting cast ONLY.
Actually I agree with Ororo and Logan but would dispute Kitty and Betsy (it is very whimsical but it would so awesome for the hot asian ninja girl to end up with Cypher as original intended).
Now they ended Aquaman-Mera in JL # 17 too :(.
Yeah, comics do only cater to single people these days. Maybe that's because people who are not single and in lon-term relationships are too mature to read this tripe ?
LOL just joking there...
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