@time: Well if they didn't there wouldn't be anything to read, thats not to say that the way that they destroy relationships is always good but you can't expect relationships to be constants lasting for ever

Surprisingl, the "break up" i felt the most disappointed by was

Cyclops and Wolverine

From rivals, to frenemies, to mutual respect. it took them DECADES to build, and TWO years to destroy (Schism & AVX)

what a shame.

I dont want relationships to be broken but i can see why it is needed. and i was wondering if there is any chance that the relationship between cable and hope would be broken. or maybe cable and cyclops.

Just because they destroyed the relationships once, doesn't mean that they can't build them back up again. I'm hoping for Scott/Jean, Kitty/Collossus & Psylocke/Archangel to get built back.

I think Marvel will once they get their fill of the Drama from the breakup & wanna go back to the classics...

Relationships ending, like Jean and Scott, or Gambit and Rogue,rarely ever bother me, because generally it stems from/leads to actual character growth, which, for me, is the most interesting thing about the characters. It keeps them from getting stagnant.

Friendships dissolving, like Cyclops and Beast, tend to frustrate me more, although it usually stems from the same thing, characters developing in ideological opposition, or growing as individuals but in different directions. But really, that's at the foundation of all X-men stories, ie, Xavier and Magneto. Friends make for more bitter enemies, because you see a little of yourself in them.

If it's organic, I'm OK with it. Cyclops and Jean falling apart because they were poison for each other was something that made sense and was evident since well before they were married.

Things like Scott and Emma being destroyed because Bendis is a cretin frustrate the Hell out of me.

That's one I really was bummed about. Scott an Logan. Their chemistry was so great for a while. Never besties but almost brothers. Certainly a better relationship than Scott actual brothers. The break ups reall don't bother me. Plenty of mutated fish in the sea especially after Phoenix.

*notes X-23 and Hellion should be on that list. Shakes fist at Liu. Then again... shakes fist at people who lay the foundation by screwing Hellion over*

@chasereis: "After so much s*** Scott like any other man in his situation needs a stable constant in life to keep himself balanced"

This.

Scott snapping & going off the reservation should be no surprise to anyone, given all the shit he's been through. So what if you can shoot lasers from your eyes ? That does not exclude you from being able to marry and live life like a normal family man till you're dead.

Typical Marvel forced soap opera crap.

@chasereis: lol yeah

@chasereis said:

Some things are better left untouched. Scott and Jean is the best and biggest example. After so much s*** Scott like any other man in his situation needs a stable constant in life to keep himself balanced. Everyone settles down at some point even in comics to break something like that apart is base stupidity. Tossing female after female at cyclops is by and large tiresome. It was exhausting in the 80's and was even worse in 2K. To top that off Scott becomes best friends with Logan, what the hell was that. Clearly Logan is either far more underhanded for consoling the cheating enemy and to secretly pursuing Jean on his own or maybe he never loved Jean after all and she was just a piece of a** in the end. Were I in Logan position, with Logan's temperament Schism should have happen the moment Logan thought Scott betrayed Jean in New X-Men, but that never happened. Very poor X-Men plots indeed.

whoa. I had no idea you were so passionate about this.

To be fair to Logan, he never thought Scott and Jean were good for each other; he may have respected them enough to butt out of it and be happy for them, it was none of his business, after all, but he definitely made his feelings known about Scott's betrayal in Whedon's run.

Let's just look at Cyclops and Wolverine's relationship, briefly: Wolverine quits his job leading Alpha Flight to be put under the command of a bossy kid with a fraction of his life experience, and then he falls for that kid's girlfriend, who, by his estimation, is way too mature to be wasting her time with Cyclops. But he respects her, and thus respects her decision.

Skip ahead to when Logan finds out that Jean is still alive: yeah, he goes for her again, but by this time Cyclops has already gotten married and had a kid, and then ditched them; Logan, at this point, has every reason to think Jean would be better off with him. But, again, that's not her decision, and he respects that.

Eventually, Cyclops and Wolverine are on the same team again and actually learn to respect each other. With this mutual respect established, Wolverine chooses to be happy for his two friends when they get married. (This, I'm assuming, is where you would leave the relationship between these three characters, back in the early 90's)

And that is a nice happy ending and all, but it's also where Jean and Scott's characters started to stagnate. Turns out Wolverine was right, they were holding each other back. Maybe they could've worked it out after Scott cheated on her, and maybe they would've if Jean hadn't died, but she did. So was Scott wrong to have an affair with Emma? yes, sure, that was wrong, but still very human and understandable. These things are never as black and white as we want to see them.

And, why would Logan pass judgement on Cyclops at this point? if anything, this only proved what he already thought about Scott and Jean, that they were ultimately not right for each other, and, as Scott's friend (because he was also that) he probably had some sympathy for him, at least equal to his disappointment that he had been right.

But was he wrong to be with Emma after Jean died? I don't think so. And I think they were a great couple.

And, yeah, Wolverine, obviously still grieving Jean's death, took issue with this, which is also understandable, but also not really any of his business. So, without Jean to be an issue between them, they eventually moved past their old rivalry to regard each other with a renewed sense of respect and finally see each other as equals, and eventually friends.

And I think it's the perceived betrayal of that friendship, from both of them, that has made them such bitter enemies.

@time: It's all part of the drama of reading comics (or any form of entertainment). We read comics for drama ultimately. If relationships were rock solid, that's not a terribly interesting read.

I'm still recovering from the Kitty and Colossus break up

@akbogert said:

@dangallant984: I think it's true that there are destructive relationships that do need to be dealt with. For example, while in general I'm quite opposed to the concept of divorce (what God has brought together, let no man separate, etc. etc.), people (often, but not always, women) in physically or emotionally abusive relationships should absolutely be able to get out of that endangering situation. I don't really think that was the case with Jean & Scott (because neither of them has ever struck me as being actually cruel/evil), but as my experience in old X-Men stories is slim-to-none, I'll defer to others on that debate. The point is that marriage is not to be taken lightly, and "it's just not working out" or "we just don't see each other like we used to" is a crap excuse for terminating one.

Comics are free to reflect all different walks of life, of course, but it just rubs me the wrong way that most marriages in comics seem to be doomed to an eventual end. Why isn't marital bliss considered an ideal along with the other ways in which these characters are idolized?

No offence meant by this, but bringing your religious beliefs into this won't score any points with me.

I don't think there's any reason whatsoever that two people should remain together if they are not happy together. Someone shouldn't have to justify why they don't want to be with someone, that they no longer want to be should be enough.

That said, I do think that a lasting relationship with another person you care about should be considered ideal, but things change, people change, and if someone isn't happy doing what they're doing, or being with who they're with, then I think they owe it to themselves to change.

@akbogert: Yeah man. Marriage is not just a business deal that can be made or broken anytime you want some "change". it's a vow, but everyone has his own values, so no point in debating something like this TBH.

I'm not talking to you now. Remember?

Heh. Yeah. And I posted on that thread, too. :P

@akbogert said:

@dangallant984: None taken -- simply explaining my personal reason for disliking divorce, and besides marriage is historically a religious institution. But that's the last from me on that subject, because there's no possible benefit to pursuing it further.

On a broader note, fighting through hard times, disagreements, and the loss of "honeymoon stage" feelings for one another to keep a marriage together is actually one of the hardest things a person can do. Committing to an oath or vow -- for that's what is exchanged at a wedding, a vow -- is a big deal, and upholding that commitment regardless of how hard or uncomfortable it may be makes for a far stronger and more interesting character than one who bails because of inconvenience. Just from a narrative perspective, I think divorce is a weak way to progress a character's story; it lets him/her cop out on one of the most difficult challenges real life has to offer.

Sorry, when I read "disliking divorce", I hear "thinking I'm entitled to an opinion about other people's right to choose how to be happy with their own lives", and I guess I find that offensive.

From a writing stand point, you may have a point. But I believe in people's right to change their mind, and live their own life, and I don't think it's anyone's place to tell someone they should be with someone if they don't want to be.

@chasereis: I really dont wanna start a firestorm for stating this point, but just look at it this way : Comics are read by kids, and in a way they do learn a bit about values & morals from it, especially from comics like X-Men, where morals & values is what it's all about, not just ass kicking & laser beams etc. I don't mean to start a Political Correctness argument here, but sometimes its nice to encourage the values of things like Marriage etc. It's a vow for life, and you don't just waltz away from it just because you need a bit of change.. If you want realistic, then, well, look at all the couples that have been married for decades together and still have a healthy relationship. What's wrong with that ? Why can't Marvel let things like this be ? Character development is a lazy excuse for making 2 people bail out of a relationship, just because it was "boring". I'm not a religious person AT ALL, but I still hold some values & principles.

But enough of that, I just hope Bendis makes the Young Scott/Jean make up & do it right this time, although from the last panel in #7, it looks more like a break up than the beginning of a make-up lol

And Pete-MJ ? What the hell was that all about ? The break up was completely nonsense IMHO.

@chasereis: What other reasons ? please elaborate, if you don't mind.

"Kids" aren't really the target audience for Comics anymore. Save the 'Adventures' series or the like.

I mean, really... do you think X-Force: Sex and Violence was a kid's book?

@chasereis: the stories you're talking about, I think, are timeless and classic, and very much do still exist. Does that mean that the status quo from one great age should remain immutable forever? that new stories shouldn't happen? that characters shouldn't change and grow over time?

I think I'm starting to see your issue with Morrison, here.

And yet, in some ways, you are very right. Not all creators are going to be respectful of the histories of the characters, and sometimes that's a shame, it makes for bad stories, and so on, and then sometimes that's the ripple that makes the whole tapestry more colourful. Take a character like She-Hulk; she revels in how inconsistently her world is written, and she's one of my favourite characters for it.

Nobody wants to see characters they like do something that they never thought they would, it can seem out of character, inconsistent, and, yes, as often as not, is the product of careless writing. But once it's happened, it's happened; it's part of the story, and you move on from there.

And why not? that's what actual people do. Most real people, in my experience, are terribly inconsistent; they do things out of character all the time, they regret doing some things, and not doing others, and they don't have time travel or super science or coming back from the dead to do anything about it. So, I guess for me, it doesn't seem that crazy.

And sometimes a really good story will find it's impetus in a really bad one, also, just like real life.

I guess, ultimately, to me, it's just really not worth making myself unhappy about.

@DarkxSeraph: Even Videogames rated ESRB M are played by kids now. Movies, Comics, everything gets into the hands of those that are not their target audience. Lets not kid ourselves here. Nothing anyone can do about it.

But anyways, that's your opinion, and this is mine. I don't wanna get into one of those debates lol.

Right... you're talking about who can pick them up. I'm talking about target audience. We're talking apples and oranges.

There is no doubt that kids will get into things that they are not the target audience for, but you're suggesting that books should be written to cater to those who they are not really written for. That's like asking that Black Ops 2 be made with elementary school students in mind, just in case they pick it up.

*small shrug*

@Akbogert : @DarkxSeraph: To be fair, Sex & Violence was a Parental Advisory book; plenty of others, however, are rated All Ages or Teen."

True, but even the base X-Force book was rough on the violence side. Furthermore, the themes explored even in Spidey's books aren't kid friendly (e.g. the controversial 'is it rape if SpOck has sex with MJ' debate prodded by it).

@akbogert: you seem as if you feel pretty entitled to your opinion of what other people should and shouldn't do, so I'm only going to ask, for whose benefit is the sanctity of marriage?

@akbogert said:

@dangallant984 said:

@akbogert: you seem as if you feel pretty entitled to your opinion of what other people should and shouldn't do, so I'm only going to ask, for whose benefit is the sanctity of marriage?

@akbogert said:

Comics are free to reflect all different walks of life

@akbogert said:

Again, people can and will live as they please. We quite agree on that.

Someone isn't reading.

No, I read all that. Thrice, now.

Do you have an answer for my question?

I'm angry about Colossus and Kitty now, they shouldn't be seperated at all. To try and incorporate a romance from a movie( Xmen 3) Iceman and Kitty into comics is backwards and a bad idea. The comics stories should be incorporated into the movies, it's been Colossus and Kitty for as long as I can remember.

@evilvegeta74: It should always be Comics to Movies, not movies to comics, but w/e, if people wanna pay money to buy turd, they WILL be sold turd.

@evilvegeta74: I don't need for Kitty and Colossus to always be together, hey, they're still young, but I do agree that the whole thing with Iceman seemed unnecessarily contrived. It was probably just to show Kitty trying to move on.