Just finished Gillen's run on Generation Hope, and two issues by Asmus. I want to say I kinda enjoyed reading it. Gillen's in universe introspects, individual voices and thematically introduced concepts through them always impressed me in a good way and here it was no exclusion. Kenji's expressionism through art, Transonic's growing up intellectual, Velocidad's I think immaturity, even shallow Primal and Oya were handled best way they could be. Idie's cliched self-perception of "Woe is me I'm monster" started to be at least understandable after witnessing what is going inside her mind in a Schism tie-in, and Primal had his development too. Cameo from Evangeline Whedon was interesting with Sixth and Seventh Lights having their first appearances in unusual ways.

It wasn't groundbreaking, but it was a well-written and self-contained mutant metaphor exposition.

i liked it too

Nope! It isn't that bad, but it isn't that good.

I disagree.

While I'll give points toward characters like Kenji and Primal. I found characterization to.be a problem overall.

I was never sure if I was supposed to trust bluegirl or not since she would say something about disliking or betraying Hope one minute and then it wouldn't be a factor at all the next. It was easy to completely forget what her character was up to since her concerns were never dealt with until the rushed ending.

Adult's were idiots... I mean to a new level in some aspects with the level of things that the team got away with. And then there were times when they almost seemed to be getting lectured.

And most importantly Hope was unlikeable. She was entitled, angry and domineering from the start with a hint of "do no wrong". I mean I get that she's the mutant Messiah, and as such a lot of the time your going to be coming of as perfect...but there are times when Hope just needed to be humbled as a character and yet she just kept getting of scott-free or proving everyone wrong. She basically dominates Utopia and anyone who doesn't like her is wrong to. By the end of the book I was on Kenji's side because a lot of what he was complaining about was true.

Its strange to say it considering the facts, but the Hope in this book is almost completely different from the Hope from the X-tinction team of the time. With that one being more innocent teen whose proactive and capable, and this one being infallible, controlling and unsympathetic. The lack of struggle or adversity for Hope soured the run and the character which is bad since she was the main focus and the other characters had some nice stuff to build on with more time.

It isn't the worst book but it certainly isn't the best

@koays:

Just finished reading the whole series. Funny that I forgot to mention the character that had this book with her name in the title. I agree that she was absolutely unlikable and point is, I actually liked that. It was an interesting way to develop the main protagonist (?) through annoyance, ambiguity and self-obsession. It freed your prism for own interpretations of who this 'messiah' truly was. And her revolting nature was in my opinion there only to show how others will follow her no matter what, so 'adults are idiots' wasn't set in stone for that matter. Emma was portrayed poorly I agree, she lost control too many times without any consequences, but for Scott everything going on was in character with his devotion to her nature. Laurie was just a smart, yet lost kid with identity issues. Her irresolution was understandable acknowledging the nature of what was going on and her little significance in the scope that was about to expand. Kenji was different because of how he perceived her natural authority over them that he unambiguously desired to completely dismiss, and yes his reasons were understandable, but only exposed one side of the coin, as it was pointed out in the very end.

Hope in no way was shown to be perfect, hell the whole Dark Hope thing you and Hawk always talk about was right there on panel and had a reasonable precedent behind it.

Well that's a good interpretation of Hope for one. And i guess reading back on it it's not as glaring as it was....but for it to be the first look at Hope as a character after years of build up i'd like to think they'd ease into the whole jerk@ss characterization she had going on slower, because she had zero likability early on and she was the character people had waited years to read about. I just feel that if anyone other then Kitty had acknowledged some of the subtext with Hope and provided her with some reasonable opposition it would've made a better impression.

Really subtext is a big problem with the book though.

Scott bends over backwards for her and she never gets in trouble but still he sends Kitty to the team and removes Rogue f because he's suspicious of her powers. Was he always suspicious and just playing friendly or did he decide it was an acceptable risk? Same thing with Laura and Kenji where they go so long between plots that you forget they are working together since its so out of focus.

I think it's obvious that this run was wrapped up before it's time, since all of the Lights seem very distinct but under developed. And had the final part of Hope's story (in place of AvX) been about her and Lights then alot of this would've been awesome groundwork layed for these characters (especially given my and Hawk's Dark Messiah theories). But i feel like it still needed another 5-10 issues or so to really be anywhere near good, since alot of its best areas that you've pointed out were only briefly touched on... so while a character like Laura might've been the perfect viewpoint for the struggle of loving/controlled by Hope it didnt feel like she'd earned the change of heart by the end of the book.

It was an okay series, though, the best bits weren't about Hope at all. Zero was an awesome character.

cause thats how a teenager acts like according to marvel, lol. also how would a writer write about teenagers when there in there 40's lol........

@koays:

Well that's a good interpretation of Hope for one. And i guess reading back on it it's not as glaring as it was....but for it to be the first look at Hope as a character after years of build up i'd like to think they'd ease into the whole jerk@ss characterization she had going on slower, because she had zero likability early on and she was the character people had waited years to read about. I just feel that if anyone other then Kitty had acknowledged some of the subtext with Hope and provided her with some reasonable opposition it would've made a better impression.

Hmm... I think it has more to do with your expectations from, already revealed to be, unjustified hype built around the character and how you wanted this character to be perceived. I mean, I totally get that, it's kinda the same with me - the revelations, the unique position, the title, all culminated into this imperfectly developed girl. Thing is, vagueness is the only pattern that is certain for her, and that's the problem. I just tried to find the right words to describe her while typing, but there's just too much mutually exclusive aspects that it is insane for a character that was supposed to be so prominent.

Really subtext is a big problem with the book though.

Maybe, it's not. Maybe, they wanted to build SOMETHING, but the AvX sanction happened and everything had to be rushed into the final arc without the grand and definitive details we needed to understand where she stands in her own eyes, and ours as readers.

Scott bends over backwards for her and she never gets in trouble but still he sends Kitty to the team and removes Rogue f because he's suspicious of her powers. Was he always suspicious and just playing friendly or did he decide it was an acceptable risk? Same thing with Laura and Kenji where they go so long between plots that you forget they are working together since its so out of focus.

I think it's obvious that this run was wrapped up before it's time, since all of the Lights seem very distinct but under developed. And had the final part of Hope's story (in place of AvX) been about her and Lights then alot of this would've been awesome groundwork layed for these characters (especially given my and Hawk's Dark Messiah theories). But i feel like it still needed another 5-10 issues or so to really be anywhere near good, since alot of its best areas that you've pointed out were only briefly touched on... so while a character like Laura might've been the perfect viewpoint for the struggle of loving/controlled by Hope it didnt feel like she'd earned the change of heart by the end of the book.

In general I agree. I only read it once as of now, but the very thought and desire to reread this run already shows that good writing was involved, well, to me at least.

@adamtrmm: Well your 100% write about the AvX thing. You can sort of tell that by the time schism was done the book was being forced out of relevance by a change of plans.

Really though i think it's kind of weird how there are so many things going in so many directions with Hope in this book, and yet her appearances in Fractions previous work and even in Gillen's Uncanny at the same time was a bit more streamlined. It just seems like a misfire with trying to make a new character deeper, instead of just going with what you've already got in other places.

I liked it at the time but I've come to realize it was more of a case of wanting to like it. They had some good ideas but it just kept missing the spot with me now that I look back on it. I really was routing for Hope.

@koays:

Remember her conversation with Xavier and Magneto? It was pretty interesting pov. To me, I can't say that about Asmus really for same reasons this book wasn't as good as it was (and it's not about creativity) like we pointed out, but I still give kudos to Gillen for giving other characters their own, almost unique, voices, plus the activation of 6th and 7th Lights was also original and very interesting to read about. That's where this book has succeeded imo.

"Nihilism finds an unreceptive audience in the preborn"

...

"Eat. Fight. Mate."

I mean, if he made Primal work for me, that's already an achievement, cause until I read this book I wanted him on the bus with Aaron's and Bendis' pets. Now I kinda don't haha

@adamtrmm: Don't get me wrong. This book was well written. The characters and plot are enjoyable and there are a number of scenes that stand out as good points. But when I say it's not good, i generally mean by Pre- Aaron/Bendis standards. With Aaron and Bendis "bad" is having no direction, no characterization and any signs that somebody might say or do something that could lead to a character arc being praised as a turning point. Pre-Aaron/Bendis bad was just not being as good as you could be.

With that I'd argue that Gen Hope is not good in the same way that Young X-Men wasn't that good. They both have unique and diverse characters and plots but could be so much better. To me they should both be considered the bare minimum of where writing should be for the students/younger X-Men....and yet Wolverine and the X-Men under Aaron is about a mile beneath them.

Gen Hope isn't bad. It's just pathetic.

@koays:

With that I'd argue that Gen Hope is not good in the same way that Young X-Men wasn't that good. They both have unique and diverse characters and plots but could be so much better. To me they should both be considered the bare minimum of where writing should be for the students/younger X-Men....and yet Wolverine and the X-Men under Aaron is about a mile beneath them.

I kinda disagree though. YXM was just generic. A mediocrity. GenH wasn't that, it was flawed, but not mediocre. It raised good points and had interesting writing at least.

Now about Aaron, let's just avoid that topic haha

Lol, well you at least where i'm coming from though right? They both could've been so much better but just didn't amount to much. Sure Gen Hope was definitely the more interesting one and was less at fault for it's failings, but if they start lining people up to order a relaunch for a title....i'm not getting on the line for either of them.

I'd be standing on the New X-Men line giving judgmental stares to the people on the other lines.

Of course. Young X-men was a post K/Y New X-men relaunch basically, the stakes and expectations were high and the result was... well, whatever it was. Damn, now you made me hate this crap even more :( I'm too damn hanged over to feel any worse so it's better now then another time lol

I absolutely agree, GenHope had their momentum but they don't now, unless Dark Hope resolution at its pure hardcoreness awaits us, with New X-men as the main opposition! It's either THIS under Gillen or New Academy under K/Y!

Ima dreamer huh?

Lol dreamer doesnt cut it close when it comes to New X-Men fans.

I almost made a thread recommending a Brian Wood return until i realized the majority of my positive points were about the use of New X-Men in his book.

Though if the X-Men keep all 4 of their titles post Uncanny 600, we'll have 3 no writer titles and no visible direction so maybe now is the time to dream!

@koays:

Lol dreamer doesnt cut it close when it comes to New X-Men fans.

Yeah, we had it rough.. We really did haha

I almost made a thread recommending a Brian Wood return until i realized the majority of my positive points were about the use of New X-Men in his book.

All in all, did you like his XX-men stuff? Because to me, it's not even somehow near what he did with Security Team (?) in X-men vol.3. That run was really gold.

Though if the X-Men keep all 4 of their titles post Uncanny 600, we'll have 3 no writer titles and no visible direction so maybe now is the time to dream!

My bald skepticism tells me it's time to tremble and not to dream lol

@adamtrmm: Lol it doesnt fill me with confidence that the alot of the better X-Board posters have no confidence in the X-Men post Secret Wars.

Honestly when it comes to Wood I wasn't awed by his stuff. But at the same time most of his bad things were really the fault of the crossover and being relabeled a Marvel Now jump on point. The guy is a magnet on all his runs for editorial interference....So i can forgive him for that.

Really his XX-Men run had good writing and alot going on for all the characters, and if he had more time after they brought in Monet and dropped the others then I saw more potential in his run and team then I did any of the other books. As for whats actually on panel...the team dynamic really worked in his last arc and he was being very creative in how he divided up the cast into student/mentor roles...but it's not nearly as smooth as his Security team run, and like his Ultimate Comics: X-Men run alot of his big storylines and character arcs just sort of fizzled out into nothing.

I wouldn't mind seeing him back on it though since he's clearly a long time planner but can deliver in the short term department. He's the only person who's written a modern Jubilee i care for.

@koays:

Lol it doesnt fill me with confidence that the alot of the better X-Board posters have no confidence in the X-Men post Secret Wars.

I really have no idea what to even think tbh.

Honestly when it comes to Wood I wasn't awed by his stuff. But at the same time most of his bad things were really the fault of the crossover and being relabeled a Marvel Now jump on point. The guy is a magnet on all his runs for editorial interference....So i can forgive him for that.

I don't know if it's awed, but I absolutely loved Security Team arcs. Basically, his only masterpiece.

The only editorial interference I can think of happened during Marvel Now XX era, are you talking about anything else?

Really his XX-Men run had good writing and alot going on for all the characters, and if he had more time after they brought in Monet and dropped the others then I saw more potential in his run and team then I did any of the other books. As for whats actually on panel...the team dynamic really worked in his last arc and he was being very creative in how he divided up the cast into student/mentor roles...but it's not nearly as smooth as his Security team run, and like his Ultimate Comics: X-Men run alot of his big storylines and character arcs just sort of fizzled out into nothing.

Now about his MN run I don't think I can say anything positive, to me it was really bad. You could say that character development/interactions were good at least, but were they? Rachel/Storm conflict was forced and I don't feel it was true to their characters. Well, from the point of "I didn't even know we left the school so I'm going to JGC!" nothing was for Rachel (I mean, "we're at war so we kill our enemies" mentality from RaFoSE? No? Of course, because "I didn't even know we left the school!"... gawd) a constructive and consecutive development, and here Wood made no exception, he made her a voice of opposition he wanted for dynamics of his forming story, basically a plot device, not the character she is supposed to be. And Storm? After all that pathos HE himself wrote she now is ready to kill her friend? Nah, it was all messy and didn't work for me from the very beginning.

I will judge his Ultimate run when I'll read more on it, to be completely fair.

I wouldn't mind seeing him back on it though since he's clearly a long time planner but can deliver in the short term department. He's the only person who's written a modern Jubilee i care for.

If it's ST well-thought and neat dynamics then I'm all for, but now I'll have a reason to worry.

@adamtrmm: Well really look at it this way. AvX ended his security team. He had a mandatory crossover with BotA and lost Kitty and Rogue to other books all after his first arc...then he had to turn his book into a jump on point for Marvel now that meant repeatingHis first arcs villain sooner then he probably should've. Even his ultimate arc was rushed to an end do to Cataclysm. Still he got a couple good Issues despite the let down of Maddie and Selene in that XX-Men arc and the incoherent Rachel and Storm stuff. And his first and last arcs were solid, with the last arc recovering greatly once he cleaned up the problems from the previous one.

The funny thing is that Rogue and Rachel both objected to Storm at first so the dynamics werent so much Rachel vs Storm with everyone else ignoring it but seemingly a actual division within the team. Still it's his own fault for forcing it and making Rachel come off annoying.

Idk if it was really going against the pathos he'd established so.much as Storms own morals and character being put on a scale against the world and her hesitating. Rachel just didn't think its ever worth considering compromising when a teammate is involved. So I got the initial conflict with both sides having merit, though it basically devolved into meaningless snark.

I maintain he had a strong beginning and end but having your cast flipped twice will hurt anyone's run. Though a return for him would likely turn out much better because the character and team dynamics have been built on a lot since he left.

It was great! Velocidad was really generic and the weak link, but Idie's story was heavy and natural and I loved the suspense of the Kenji & Laurie/Hope tension. The story and character dynamics were strong, but the group's fatal flaw was unfortunately the grotesque, copycat aesthetic of its characters, aside from Idie, who went on to headline two future series with less success.

The vocal online fans want to read about the attractive adventures of Hellion, Elixir, etc. no matter how cliche their personalities were.

@selina_sublime: I'll give you Hellion, as his character arc wasn't anything new at first and arguably never really became unique. But how is Elixir cliche? He's three dimensional no matter how you look at him and never fit a character type.

Also i feel like a strong dynamic requires the entire team to have unique ways of fitting in together, which is hard to do when everyone's number one relationship was Hope. How do Velocidad and Idie interact? How do Kenji and Primal? It's hard to answer since no one really got too much attention aside from when Hope was focusing on them.

Teon/Primal has to be one of my least favorite X-men characters. His powers just are so basic and almost reduce him to a child. He could be living in a psych ward with the way he acts. And I know during his trial he explained himself but geez this character just came off as so offensive towards people with mental disabilities, it almost glorifies it.

@koays:

Well really look at it this way. AvX ended his security team. He had a mandatory crossover with BotA and lost Kitty and Rogue to other books all after his first arc...then he had to turn his book into a jump on point for Marvel now that meant repeatingHis first arcs villain sooner then he probably should've. Even his ultimate arc was rushed to an end do to Cataclysm. Still he got a couple good Issues despite the let down of Maddie and Selene in that XX-Men arc and the incoherent Rachel and Storm stuff. And his first and last arcs were solid, with the last arc recovering greatly once he cleaned up the problems from the previous one.

But, while I agree that editorial interference and mandates are not cool and do totally justify the mess that is forced, he still had something like 15 (minus BOTA) issues of his own product to develop and explore entirely (as it is possible) on his own terms and he still failed to deliver. For a perspective, 15 issues it's like what, 3 arcs? Gillen's entire run was basically 4 arcs (of his own developments) with one of those four being utter crap, Gillen still succeeded to become one of those X-writers. Another point for a perspective if I may, Security Team run again. As you pointed out, there was also mandatory over it's end. But it's the end that made the resolution for this adventure so intense. It's the success to play not on his own terms and make it the best it could've been acknowledging where it was leading and from where it all originated.

You know what, forget everything I wrote, most likely, you're right. Maybe the real failure was the whole premise? Maybe he needed his own lineup on his own terms. And then maybe there would've been no Villainsues and Plot Guns with ludicrous resurrections.

The funny thing is that Rogue and Rachel both objected to Storm at first so the dynamics werent so much Rachel vs Storm with everyone else ignoring it but seemingly a actual division within the team. Still it's his own fault for forcing it and making Rachel come off annoying.

I don't know what to add kinda, I just didn't feel the characters and their motivations. Everything (this word again) felt forced and unnecessary.

Idk if it was really going against the pathos he'd established so.much as Storms own morals and character being put on a scale against the world and her hesitating. Rachel just didn't think its ever worth considering compromising when a teammate is involved. So I got the initial conflict with both sides having merit, though it basically devolved into meaningless snark.

Maybe it's me but I feel there's a problem with current Storm's characterization, they decided to push her so hard without any direction and actual motivation. For somebody who's considered to be the leader of the good X-men she doesn't offer that much I feel. It's not about the character, but the writers and it was basically Wood's job right here to define and do you think he succeeded? Because I can't tell.

I maintain he had a strong beginning and end but having your cast flipped twice will hurt anyone's run. Though a return for him would likely turn out much better because the character and team dynamics have been built on a lot since he left.

He made the all-femme team happen without making it feel forced or self-absorbed, that I'm willingly giving him lol But, Rachel and John Sublime?...

1.- Well you've got a point there. At the end of the day was his run great? No. Was it good? No, but it was passable given the standards of the time. There are A LOT of ideas in his run that I flat out loved. Jubilee developing into a potential leader, the inclusion of the X-students as back up to the team, his use of Beast, the way the line up never seems like its missing a male member, heck even Arkea was fine in her first arc. If you look at it from a arc by arc perspective it sucks, but Woods story sorta just flowed from one thing into another with pieces like Shogo, Rachel and Storm, and JGS internal issues carrying from one story to the next.

His run failed as a whole, but i'd argue that it's best issues on their own were better then the security teams best issues individually, he just fumbled after the crossover and couldn't regain his footing. I mean he seemed at a complete loss at what to do with Omega Sentinel after Rogue left other then say she was a cop repeatedly to justify her inclusion.

2.- I'm halfway on that point... I think if anything he handled the gimmick so well it wasn't noticeable. The initial team of Rogue, Kitty, Rachel, Psylocke, Jubilee and Storm would've been awesome simply because of how well he handled the characters. The choice of enemy, tie-ins, and other interruptions though he could complete be done with.

3.- "there's a problem with Storm's current characterization" Lol that's what people say when they're trying to get rained on by CV's Legion of Droplets....i mean Storm fans. Personally.....i thought that Storm needed to be brought down a peg after Wood's Security run. I mean don't get me wrong he defined her as strong and unique in her interpretation of things and always thinking of the impacts....but she basically came off as her way or the highway so deal with it. It's partially why I didn't have a problem with Rachel going at her, since everyone else seemed to accept it. As far as Wood's portrayal in Vol 4. .....It's quite clear that her hesitation to lead came out of no where, especially given he was the last one to write her.

But her earlier interpretation in the beginning as just being the most senior member, but being called on to make a One Life vs The World decision and hesitating seemed in character. And even afterwards when she became leader in the final arc she sort of dealt with it in a natural way.

It's just that second Arkea arc, that makes me just say NO. He didn't do her justice, because in the middle of the mission with Rachel critiquing her she should've handled it the way she did when Colossus did the same thing and confront the problem. It would've even given Rachel a chance to call her out with a legitimate beef over her leadership rather then..."I was just waiting for you to take charge"

4.-Lol well look if your gonna bring up that mess, i'm not even gonna debate this anymore. I'm still trying to figure out the attraction even without the whole "You killed my Mom" angle.

@koays:

"there's a problem with Storm's current characterization" Lol that's what people say when they're trying to get rained on by CV's Legion of Droplets...

Pfft. Don't you remember my "Should Storm's position as the leader be questioned?" thread? I shrugged it all off. B)

Personally.....i thought that Storm needed to be brought down a peg after Wood's Security run. I mean don't get me wrong he defined her as strong and unique in her interpretation of things and always thinking of the impacts....but she basically came off as her way or the highway so deal with it. It's partially why I didn't have a problem with Rachel going at her, since everyone else seemed to accept it. As far as Wood's portrayal in Vol 4. .....It's quite clear that her hesitation to lead came out of no where, especially given he was the last one to write her.

I don't think it was really "my way or..." thing when she didn't fully trust Scott, more like her current modus operandi. And I didn't mind that, it made sense story wise and characteristically I think. And Colossus' well-defined and strong argumentation of the opposition to her made it balanced so Storm didn't come out as just preachy and self-righteous Majesty, and more like a 3-d. character with her own doubts and uncertainties. Once again, the book was basically Colossus/Storm, others were secondary (doesn't mean insignificant though) and political views they shared those days and how it contrasts with their friendship.

What I felt was missing though it's that Piotr's Cyttorak influence was never mentioned even though he was overly assertive from his typical self.

But her earlier interpretation in the beginning as just being the most senior member, but being called on to make a One Life vs The World decision and hesitating seemed in character. And even afterwards when she became leader in the final arc she sort of dealt with it in a natural way.

Now that I remembered that "Storm thread" of mine, I also know how could Wood make Rachel questioning Storm more in the context instead of just because. She was in the right mood to feel uncertainty for her leadership status, just not for the right reasons.

It's just that second Arkea arc, that makes me just say NO. He didn't do her justice, because in the middle of the mission with Rachel critiquing her she should've handled it the way she did when Colossus did the same thing and confront the problem. It would've even given Rachel a chance to call her out with a legitimate beef over her leadership rather then..."I was just waiting for you to take charge"

lol that's where I felt Wood was over his head with critique he just wanted it all end.

@adamtrmm: Lol i remember vividly the Storm questioning thread.... that pretty much confirmed the CV equation that (Storm+Criticism= Cyclops is a Douche) no matter what the context. Still, good times on the X-boards...

She didn't trust Scott sure, but being secretive and lying to her team all so that she had the final decision on a game changing play kind of bothered me. Especially given it was just Colossus who complained and how no one else thought it was worth saying anything about. It's good writing for a conflict don't get me wrong....but it just sort of made her seem untouchable when she does what she wants and no-sells consequence. So i was all for Rachel becoming disenchanted with Storm over a bad decision and eventually beginning to see the holes in her leadership. I mean people have questioned Xavier, Cyclops, Cable etc but Storm never had someone say "You don't have all the answers".

Though your write, I'm sure if Colossus had stuck around and the book kept going post AvX, then it would've been great to see him be the guy who doesn't go along with Storm easily but isnt always write because alot of it is just his Juggernaut side looking for conflict.

"She was in the right mood to feel uncertainty for her leadership status, just not for the right reasons."

Basically yea. The moment she was about to take out Karima she completely justified having an arc on doubt and a lack of confidence both from herself, and from others. Heck Rachel being the one to do it was perfect considering the issues people had with her character being in the JGS at the time. The only thing is that it was loss in the stream of things and her big moment of self questioning was "Do I have the write to make the team of X-Men I'm sort of in charge with an official team". It's like 1) Yes your the Headmisstress. 2) I didn't even know you had to do that. And 3) Why after everything you've been through is making the team official your crisis of consciousness?

Lol as I said, there's alot of ideas to like in this run but the second arc is just crippling and the way Wood did a soft reboot as soon as it was over tells you alot. But still Jubilee, New X-Men, and his ability to do more then one thing with character arcs (having Rachel feud with Storm, while also dealing with *shiver* Sublime/Jubilee dealing with Shogo while also handling Bling) will have me look on him better then i will Aaron when it comes to using his setting and source material.

@koays:

Lol i remember vividly the Storm questioning thread.... that pretty much confirmed the CV equation that (Storm+Criticism= Cyclops is a Douche) no matter what the context. Still, good times on the X-boards...

Indeed. What happened since then?

She didn't trust Scott sure, but being secretive and lying to her team all so that she had the final decision on a game changing play kind of bothered me. Especially given it was just Colossus who complained and how no one else thought it was worth saying anything about. It's good writing for a conflict don't get me wrong....but it just sort of made her seem untouchable when she does what she wants and no-sells consequence. So i was all for Rachel becoming disenchanted with Storm over a bad decision and eventually beginning to see the holes in her leadership. I mean people have questioned Xavier, Cyclops, Cable etc but Storm never had someone say "You don't have all the answers".

Well it's the complex of that story that you had to decide for yourself what side you're picking and I don't think I agree that everybody on that team chose Storm's side. Psylocke did, yeah, but then Domino chose Colossus (after they were revealed to have a thing) with Pixie as the voice of innocence that was a kind of classic X-POV. And the second Magik stepped in you already knew how the balance was shaken and in whose favor. No matter what how reasonable Storm's points were in story, the story itself has never taken her side and that's what I absolutely adored, that's how you write quality X-tales!

So in this story Storm did have her good amount of being questioned.

Though your write, I'm sure if Colossus had stuck around and the book kept going post AvX, then it would've been great to see him be the guy who doesn't go along with Storm easily but isnt always write because alot of it is just his Juggernaut side looking for conflict.

So you think he was under the influence in this tale? Sorry, maybe I misunderstood.

Basically yea. The moment she was about to take out Karima she completely justified having an arc on doubt and a lack of confidence both from herself, and from others. Heck Rachel being the one to do it was perfect considering the issues people had with her character being in the JGS at the time. The only thing is that it was loss in the stream of things and her big moment of self questioning was "Do I have the write to make the team of X-Men I'm sort of in charge with an official team". It's like 1) Yes your the Headmisstress. 2) I didn't even know you had to do that. And 3) Why after everything you've been through is making the team official your crisis of consciousness?

That's exactly what I couldn't comprehend, after a very neat introspect into the difference between the factions of the Schism (even though it was within the same one and that's why it was so natural) and how their motivations made friendships be fissured, I couldn't feel that new little feud be real anymore. The issues were farfetched and characters acted too hostile for its own sake.

lol I say all-femme and a school wasn't his thing. I mean, Kymera? Really?

@adamtrmm: Lol hmm well half the people seem to have left, maybe 4-5 good posters that still regularly hit the threads (us included). And the majority of the new threads are Bendis related.... So Yea, things sort of got dull. Still the hardest working board on the site(I mean who else argues whether segregation can be justified?) just repetitive... Plus I mean kinda hard to stick around when the site won't let you post anything on the entire board....smh

I guess its a good point that even if her actions were questionable and even wrong in some eyes it is very neutral. I looked back at the old Storm debates and I can kind of see that a lot of my "Storm is untouchable" ideas may have more to do with arguing with those defending the choice then how the issue was written. Have to dig up Woods team again to check though.

I'm pretty sure Colossus was under the influence. I mean it wasn't brought up by Wood, but since he'd put on the helmet he'd been more aggressive and edgy,and in other books especially late Fraction and Gillen's around that time it was a factor. Though strangely enough I was reading X-Men Hellbound and his behavior in that had me thinking that he was Under Juggernaut influence but it was still around Second Coming....maybe it was just a low key character trait.

Oh Yea your definitely right about it being unnaturally hostile. But i'd still argue that his first arc, and even everything up until Psylocke went looking for Hispanc Deathstrike was at least flowing better.

As for the roster....idk. He used his characters well, and until Kitty and Rogue left things were great. I'd argue his problems came more from plot then from the female cast, because really his was the best Jubilee in years.

Kymera was doomed the moment she decided to stay in this timeline, because no one wants another "child from the future",story arc.

@koays:

Didn't get your note, and nobody else's pretty much.

I guess its a good point that even if her actions were questionable and even wrong in some eyes it is very neutral. I looked back at the old Storm debates and I can kind of see that a lot of my "Storm is untouchable" ideas may have more to do with arguing with those defending the choice then how the issue was written. Have to dig up Woods team again to check though.

I also reread it from time to time, and there ain't many stories I can praise this way these days...

I'm pretty sure Colossus was under the influence. I mean it wasn't brought up by Wood, but since he'd put on the helmet he'd been more aggressive and edgy,and in other books especially late Fraction and Gillen's around that time it was a factor. Though strangely enough I was reading X-Men Hellbound and his behavior in that had me thinking that he was Under Juggernaut influence but it was still around Second Coming....maybe it was just a low key character trait.

I've read he intended Warpath to be in Colossus' place in the beginning, but then realized (or was said to) he needed someone more... prominent(?) instead.

I think no one really did anything significant with Colossus right until Gillen and Wood, besides being overreacting towards Illyana's issue and "artistically" grieving for Kitty, he didn't have any character development, but the final resolution with Magik worked for me. It was a great shake-up he needed since that's the portrayal he was receiving. And now he's back with the status quo. I always said Yost needs a Kyle at his side, he isn't that great without him, but I actually consider he did well with Hellbound and Colossus' portrayal was basically determinative right there.

As for the roster....idk. He used his characters well, and until Kitty and Rogue left things were great. I'd argue his problems came more from plot then from the female cast, because really his was the best Jubilee in years.

I meant he needed his own cast and his own ideas for a change, but I just finished his Ultimate run and I see things differently so this point kind of irrelevant now.

@adamtrmm: I usually do a reread of some stuff from Whedon's run till Second Coming, but I haven't felt the need to add to that listing because so much stuff ends prematurely. A case could've been made that Bendis' run would've been better on a reread but now its....Yea.

Lol when you really think about it Warpath would've been horrible for the spot Colossus was in so I'm glad they switched him out.

I think Colossus' arc during Fractions run was pretty solid. I mean every time we got a focus on him it showed him having a more difficult time dealing with Kitty and then everyone else's loss over the course of the run to the point that he was livid when he got someone back and loss them. It's just that the nature of the writing meant everything was spread out so thin it could be overlooked.

You don't like Yost current portrayal?

Also thoughts on Wood's Ultimate X-Men?

@koays:

I usually do a reread of some stuff from Whedon's run till Second Coming, but I haven't felt the need to add to that listing because so much stuff ends prematurely. A case could've been made that Bendis' run would've been better on a reread but now its....Yea.

I'm afraid there will be no place for me when the franchise will retain its status quo, with X-men united, X-force and X-factor cancelled and Magneto becoming repetitive. Decimation made me look differently at the whole comics industry in my early 20s when I was basically at the end of my service and before that I only read as a kid. I mean, all the skepticism and cynicism (to say it gently and undetailed) that the military fills you with and now you find yourself researching something that is generally considered the medium for kiddies? Of course "the boy" (you can find me on a Battles forum at times haha) and "the dreamer" within me have never vanished, otherwise... you know, it's still comics for god's sake lol so with other little factors combined awaking these dormant parasites within myself I was still a person with a pretty well defined taste in cinema and literature, now falling for something that I was supposed to outgrow years ago? Yes, that's how astonished I was when I somehow learned that a sworn boy-scout has turned into an anti-villain because he had to adapt to this new reality, basically sacrificing his ideals for something that is above him and anybody else personally. The allegory and symbolism behind this made me THAT amazed I avoided all the side silliness that there's no secret dominates the industry. I started to look for THIS kind of comics, firstly, in exploring what has turned Cyclops into who he WAS SUPPOSED to be now (Bendis, you fun-killer.....) and with X-force, New X-men v.2, Extinction team and some other very good stuff, but above the titles; the controversy and edginess, untypical, maybe even post-superheroics X-brand, convinced me then that it is absolutely relevant for those who look for more, let's say, mature, for the lack of a better word, concepts and mythoi. There's a lot more to this, but that's my little "in a nutshell" haha

Why did I write down all of this? Well you mentioned Dec era and I had that flashback and became somewhat nostalgic over my then anticipations and now uncertain with the result.

So yeah I love me some Decimation era books rereading as well, for the reasons I've stated.

About your disappointment of Bendis, I'll only ask why did it take you so long?

Lol when you really think about it Warpath would've been horrible for the spot Colossus was in so I'm glad they switched him out.

You know, I'm all for Warpath to have his prime time and hell this one would kick him right into challenging the top Alister would be fun and above that, definitive, but with that said, there's no denial in how easily he could've been just shrugged off, same can't be said about Colossus - avoiding the fact of his deserved prominence, when guy wants people to listen he gets very assertive in doing so.

I think Colossus' arc during Fractions run was pretty solid. I mean every time we got a focus on him it showed him having a more difficult time dealing with Kitty and then everyone else's loss over the course of the run to the point that he was livid when he got someone back and loss them. It's just that the nature of the writing meant everything was spread out so thin it could be overlooked.

The arc with Tattooed Man or something? Well I barely remember that, and when talking about Fraction it's for the better. I mean I do respect that guy was all ideas and did a lot to define that era for the X-men in their politics and status, but his characters voices were just, well, off. I can't think about a single character (Cyclops included, his Dec-lops was the weakest) I was enjoying under his pen. Maybe Emma/Namor/Shaw thing was somewhat OK, but that's about it.

You don't like Yost current portrayal?

I have a theory that inside the Kyle/Yost tandem, Kyle is the major creative power simply because I've read some stuff that Yost did solo, and well, it's only sometimes getting close to the mediocrity from the duo. I've read some of the Scarlet Spider, maybe it's because I'm not a fan, but Kaine is simply one of these characters that you can recognize for his great potential. What Yost did was just generic. Recent New Warriors? Again not a fan (even though some characters and concepts from there have the potential, again, the depowered mutant squad run especially, so I was ready to relate), but Gawd, how much more unimaginative it could've been? It's like all young superhero comic book cliches thrown into one place without any attempt to be just a little creative. But, it's all irrelevant right? Let's get back to the X that truly matters. The Evolutionary arc? There's no playing around, guys enjoy their killings and I've even supported their decisions in doing so, but hell eradicating the Neo was a misstep. Another angle in mutant identification that easily could've been explored through comparison and plurality is now simply dead and gone, same with Evolutionaries, great design and concept for a villains in general ended up being generic and now as far as I know, also wasted. It was an OK story but I'm not sure it was worth the price.

Now, for the Amazing. First of all, I hate Colossus wearing that thing he's wearing right now lol And I don't have that respect for comic book classics, so it won't be spared from my criticism of a character looking so ludicrous in 2015 for the sake of some tribute for an outdated archetype. Now for the serious stuff, I liked the first two issues of the Juggernaut story, even ignoring the fact of Colossus' forbearance towards Storm's butthurt bravado and Scarlet Witch's seemingly absolutely natural presence inside the School territory, I just decided to let the story take me in, flow with it until the end, so I'll prefer to judge it factually by this arc's end.

About Colossus' portrayal, well I like the assertive, rage issues and artistically burdened Piotr, typical altruist for the sake of it isn't my thing and that's what Yost is doing for him right now, so... yea.

As a side note though, he jobbed a lot of characters. That's my weakness, I love when every character are being given their justice powerwise. That's why, no matter how out of place it was, I prefer a currently depowered Magneto than a ridiculously odious fully powered yet somehow completely absent-minded about his own capabilities Mags Carey, Fraction and Gillen wrote.

Also thoughts on Wood's Ultimate X-Men?

Maybe a more appropriate thread? Because I've already got to wordy on you I feel haha

I hated that iDie had the same powers as de-powered power suit Angel.

I also hated the lack of Nightcrawler and how nude woman was all "Hope is my BFF, because she saved me, even though I can fly."

@adamtrmm: Wow -_-.....so Yea I swear I responded to this a day ago and now I'm discouraged, I'll get back to this

@koays:

The B-agent is back? ><

lol no problem man.