@natejoseph09 said:

Ugh Rogueneto makes me want to barf.

boom. what he said.

Yeah. Magneto did rip that admantium out of your body and commit horrible acts.

Colossus cheated on Kitty that time and hurt there relationship.

I don't know what everyone else thinks but this stuff sounds stupid. It's like the X-Men story unfolded since the 60's and Colossus cheated cause he couldn't help it. These writers SUCK YO,

Colossus cheated. It's complicated. One of the members SLEPT with someone else after getting back from a mission. It's stupid sounding.

Rogueneto is the stupidest one. If Marvel really things we just want to see this relationship unfold away from Romy because whatever stupid reason the writer has, they're nuts. Well sorry fans. Gambit lost. Rogues heart chose Erik Lessiuresomedudyhead.

I don't know. Even when they start over the stupidest stuff seems to have to come up. If you take all the cheating and sleeping around and random acts of unforgivable murder... it will be 2015 and somebody'll pop in and say, "Don't forget, that one isn't always faithful and the man doesn't always do what's right in murder situations." Oh! Thanks for all the one page stupidity. Each book needs a head turner. HEy tuRN your head. This guy is a Cheater or some other life scarring thing.

Like if they add something stupid to every single issue. Some one cheats, someone crosses the line, someone dies, or someone had a hidden affair. Tell me how we aren't going to be coughing up this stupid stuff 8 years from now? Like one page and no decent story or reason. Just one line explaining there frustration or something. So now in the future we got to reflect on what kind of person they are and the things they've officially done? Those one page twists suck! We can't even think of Colossus and Kitty without thinking of a man who cheats.

G-Man? I am sorry I am asking this,.. but what can we do or what does it mean if every issue gets one page of something like cheating or secret affairs or immoral choices? That means each character gets like pointless junk and scrutiny for the next 10 years right? Man that's stupid.

Rogue and Magneto is freaking gross.... WW2 ended 66 years ago and Magneto was atleast 10-15 when it ended. So he should be pushing around 80years old and Rogue looks like she is in her early to mid 30's. That is just nasty. I accepted the relationship in Age of Apocalypse since we did not know the history of that universe and for all we know Magneto could have had some deaging process done to him or he could have even jump the time line and dropped a few decades off his age. That is why I liked when they made Joseph a younger clone of Magneto.

All I keep on thinking about is Anna Nicole Smith when she was married to that old ass rich guy...Freaking Gross!

The X-Men have shown odd flashes of maturity in how they handle relationships lately. Regenesis read like a realistic portrayal of a divorce, with the main feeling expressed by the separating adult partners being relief that it was over. It was left to the children to show anger.

As for the couples that are being damaged by the schism, they resemble many real-world married couples I know who find themselves working in different towns due to the recession. They haven't split up, but they can't be together for work-related reasons.

Carey has given Rogue and Magneto the most deft and mature romantic relationship that I've seen any X-Couple have in a very long time. It's been a pleasure to watch two such strong-willed individuals spark and clash without losing an inch of what makes them unique. I fear the next writer will probably break them up simply because he (wanna bet it's a "he") simply won't be up to the task of writing them that well.

@CrabbyLioness said:

The X-Men have shown odd flashes of maturity in how they handle relationships lately. Regenesis read like a realistic portrayal of a divorce, with the main feeling expressed by the separating adult partners being relief that it was over. It was left to the children to show anger.

As for the couples that are being damaged by the schism, they resemble many real-world married couples I know who find themselves working in different towns due to the recession. They haven't split up, but they can't be together for work-related reasons.

Carey has given Rogue and Magneto the most deft and mature romantic relationship that I've seen any X-Couple have in a very long time. It's been a pleasure to watch two such strong-willed individuals spark and clash without losing an inch of what makes them unique. I fear the next writer will probably break them up simply because he (wanna bet it's a "he") simply won't be up to the task of writing them that well.

I agree about the Rogue and Magneto relationship. It's like when Joss Whedon wrote Colossus/Shadowcat's relationship in "Astonishing X-Men." It was such a refreshing read seeing how Colossus and Kitty matured throughout their relationship, but of course, another writer had to come in and mess up a really good relationship they had going on.

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@natejoseph09 said:

Ugh Rogueneto makes me want to barf.

It not any different from all those rich older guys with younger beautiful women, he just happens to be powerful instead of rich. But what wonder is what Magneto's kids think of that

Yeah, I wonder how Quicksilver and Scarlett Witch would feel about Magneto dating Rogue.

If I was any of them I would figure not very good. My father sleeping with woman who could any moment drain his life and is know for pass love with thief, ah. But what got be awkward is Polaris she was in the X-Men with Rogue, it like working in Microsoft and dating Steve Job's daughter, it just don't feel right

Yeah, I would have been worried for my father if the person he was dating was capable of draining his life force without him knowing about it.

Maybe if they could make their relationship solid but nothing in the X-Men world is solid it not like a bad thing people move on but there bit of exageration just about everyone dated everyone at one moment or another

Yeah, it always seems so awkward to me that whenever a couple breaks up in the X-Men universe, they are always dating someone else only to end up breaking up with that person and going back to the person they broke up with in the first place. I wonder why the writers won't just let the couple either stay together permanently or break up permanently? It would be so much easier if the couples already made up their minds about who they want to date or break up with.

That always bother me and like this now we see Cyclops with Storm and previously there was Storm and Forge and she and Wolverine and the list goes on. I figure she was still with Black Panther but that show how long it lasted, the other side is that his couples last a bit but if they have a kid they last quite long until the kid is age or incredible powerful and they must do something to take care of it, such Cable in Cyclops side

Yeah, it's sad whenever one of the couples have a kid, the moment they have to do something to control their child's powers, they automatically break up once their child is gone.

How many times is that child somehow aged to adulthood? Countless times and mean the relationship between Magneto and Rogue I actually find it more real there both broken people it not good it all but I seen it happen, as for child if they had one it would be the first in 616 for Rogue but not sure if he/she would not just be killed off or like said aged automatically which if you ask me cheapens the character

Yeah, I don't understand why they are always aging the child. They should just let the child grow slowly and see how the couple handles a baby in the dangerous types of situations that they are thrown in.

I would think that be the best to show character progression as parent but then they do with Franklin Richard he is forever a young boy never aging not to say most characters this days never shown pregnant

Oh yeah, that would be a bit annoying in the long run. It would be interesting if one of these X-Men characters acuall

would actually get married. Which X-Men couples do you think should stay married?

Wow that incredible hard question it like choosing between having your kid killed or your wife, ah let see. Havok and Polaris if you still consider them part of the X-Men first it would make the Summer family finally related to the Eisenhardt (Magneto's family) and I know it was suppose to happen in the past but Havok sort of walked out on Polaris, and let me tell you from experience it hard but you get over it. Maybe they out to give second try and for that early comment about Mangeto been too old remember he was 'de-aged and re-aged' by Alpha the Ultimate Mutant so his like 80 but his body more like that of 40 year old, the same for Xavier when he lost his body and he got new one

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@natejoseph09 said:

Ugh Rogueneto makes me want to barf.

It not any different from all those rich older guys with younger beautiful women, he just happens to be powerful instead of rich. But what wonder is what Magneto's kids think of that

Yeah, I wonder how Quicksilver and Scarlett Witch would feel about Magneto dating Rogue.

If I was any of them I would figure not very good. My father sleeping with woman who could any moment drain his life and is know for pass love with thief, ah. But what got be awkward is Polaris she was in the X-Men with Rogue, it like working in Microsoft and dating Steve Job's daughter, it just don't feel right

Yeah, I would have been worried for my father if the person he was dating was capable of draining his life force without him knowing about it.

Maybe if they could make their relationship solid but nothing in the X-Men world is solid it not like a bad thing people move on but there bit of exageration just about everyone dated everyone at one moment or another

Yeah, it always seems so awkward to me that whenever a couple breaks up in the X-Men universe, they are always dating someone else only to end up breaking up with that person and going back to the person they broke up with in the first place. I wonder why the writers won't just let the couple either stay together permanently or break up permanently? It would be so much easier if the couples already made up their minds about who they want to date or break up with.

That always bother me and like this now we see Cyclops with Storm and previously there was Storm and Forge and she and Wolverine and the list goes on. I figure she was still with Black Panther but that show how long it lasted, the other side is that his couples last a bit but if they have a kid they last quite long until the kid is age or incredible powerful and they must do something to take care of it, such Cable in Cyclops side

Yeah, it's sad whenever one of the couples have a kid, the moment they have to do something to control their child's powers, they automatically break up once their child is gone.

How many times is that child somehow aged to adulthood? Countless times and mean the relationship between Magneto and Rogue I actually find it more real there both broken people it not good it all but I seen it happen, as for child if they had one it would be the first in 616 for Rogue but not sure if he/she would not just be killed off or like said aged automatically which if you ask me cheapens the character

Yeah, I don't understand why they are always aging the child. They should just let the child grow slowly and see how the couple handles a baby in the dangerous types of situations that they are thrown in.

I would think that be the best to show character progression as parent but then they do with Franklin Richard he is forever a young boy never aging not to say most characters this days never shown pregnant

Oh yeah, that would be a bit annoying in the long run. It would be interesting if one of these X-Men characters acuall

would actually get married. Which X-Men couples do you think should stay married?

Wow that incredible hard question it like choosing between having your kid killed or your wife, ah let see. Havok and Polaris if you still consider them part of the X-Men first it would make the Summer family finally related to the Eisenhardt (Magneto's family) and I know it was suppose to happen in the past but Havok sort of walked out on Polaris, and let me tell you from experience it hard but you get over it. Maybe they out to give second try and for that early comment about Mangeto been too old remember he was 'de-aged and re-aged' by Alpha the Ultimate Mutant so his like 80 but his body more like that of 40 year old, the same for Xavier when he lost his body and he got new one

Havok and Polaris were pretty good together!

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@natejoseph09 said:

Ugh Rogueneto makes me want to barf.

It not any different from all those rich older guys with younger beautiful women, he just happens to be powerful instead of rich. But what wonder is what Magneto's kids think of that

Yeah, I wonder how Quicksilver and Scarlett Witch would feel about Magneto dating Rogue.

If I was any of them I would figure not very good. My father sleeping with woman who could any moment drain his life and is know for pass love with thief, ah. But what got be awkward is Polaris she was in the X-Men with Rogue, it like working in Microsoft and dating Steve Job's daughter, it just don't feel right

Yeah, I would have been worried for my father if the person he was dating was capable of draining his life force without him knowing about it.

Maybe if they could make their relationship solid but nothing in the X-Men world is solid it not like a bad thing people move on but there bit of exageration just about everyone dated everyone at one moment or another

Yeah, it always seems so awkward to me that whenever a couple breaks up in the X-Men universe, they are always dating someone else only to end up breaking up with that person and going back to the person they broke up with in the first place. I wonder why the writers won't just let the couple either stay together permanently or break up permanently? It would be so much easier if the couples already made up their minds about who they want to date or break up with.

That always bother me and like this now we see Cyclops with Storm and previously there was Storm and Forge and she and Wolverine and the list goes on. I figure she was still with Black Panther but that show how long it lasted, the other side is that his couples last a bit but if they have a kid they last quite long until the kid is age or incredible powerful and they must do something to take care of it, such Cable in Cyclops side

Yeah, it's sad whenever one of the couples have a kid, the moment they have to do something to control their child's powers, they automatically break up once their child is gone.

How many times is that child somehow aged to adulthood? Countless times and mean the relationship between Magneto and Rogue I actually find it more real there both broken people it not good it all but I seen it happen, as for child if they had one it would be the first in 616 for Rogue but not sure if he/she would not just be killed off or like said aged automatically which if you ask me cheapens the character

Yeah, I don't understand why they are always aging the child. They should just let the child grow slowly and see how the couple handles a baby in the dangerous types of situations that they are thrown in.

I would think that be the best to show character progression as parent but then they do with Franklin Richard he is forever a young boy never aging not to say most characters this days never shown pregnant

Oh yeah, that would be a bit annoying in the long run. It would be interesting if one of these X-Men characters acuall

would actually get married. Which X-Men couples do you think should stay married?

Wow that incredible hard question it like choosing between having your kid killed or your wife, ah let see. Havok and Polaris if you still consider them part of the X-Men first it would make the Summer family finally related to the Eisenhardt (Magneto's family) and I know it was suppose to happen in the past but Havok sort of walked out on Polaris, and let me tell you from experience it hard but you get over it. Maybe they out to give second try and for that early comment about Mangeto been too old remember he was 'de-aged and re-aged' by Alpha the Ultimate Mutant so his like 80 but his body more like that of 40 year old, the same for Xavier when he lost his body and he got new one

Havok and Polaris were pretty good together!

If she came from space pregnant and had child I would call him Christopher Eric Summer after both grandparents maybe make one of the Lights or something you know they keep making new character that show up and there families are like 'sure take my child, oh it fine never see them again'

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@natejoseph09 said:

Ugh Rogueneto makes me want to barf.

It not any different from all those rich older guys with younger beautiful women, he just happens to be powerful instead of rich. But what wonder is what Magneto's kids think of that

Yeah, I wonder how Quicksilver and Scarlett Witch would feel about Magneto dating Rogue.

If I was any of them I would figure not very good. My father sleeping with woman who could any moment drain his life and is know for pass love with thief, ah. But what got be awkward is Polaris she was in the X-Men with Rogue, it like working in Microsoft and dating Steve Job's daughter, it just don't feel right

Yeah, I would have been worried for my father if the person he was dating was capable of draining his life force without him knowing about it.

Maybe if they could make their relationship solid but nothing in the X-Men world is solid it not like a bad thing people move on but there bit of exageration just about everyone dated everyone at one moment or another

Yeah, it always seems so awkward to me that whenever a couple breaks up in the X-Men universe, they are always dating someone else only to end up breaking up with that person and going back to the person they broke up with in the first place. I wonder why the writers won't just let the couple either stay together permanently or break up permanently? It would be so much easier if the couples already made up their minds about who they want to date or break up with.

That always bother me and like this now we see Cyclops with Storm and previously there was Storm and Forge and she and Wolverine and the list goes on. I figure she was still with Black Panther but that show how long it lasted, the other side is that his couples last a bit but if they have a kid they last quite long until the kid is age or incredible powerful and they must do something to take care of it, such Cable in Cyclops side

Yeah, it's sad whenever one of the couples have a kid, the moment they have to do something to control their child's powers, they automatically break up once their child is gone.

How many times is that child somehow aged to adulthood? Countless times and mean the relationship between Magneto and Rogue I actually find it more real there both broken people it not good it all but I seen it happen, as for child if they had one it would be the first in 616 for Rogue but not sure if he/she would not just be killed off or like said aged automatically which if you ask me cheapens the character

Yeah, I don't understand why they are always aging the child. They should just let the child grow slowly and see how the couple handles a baby in the dangerous types of situations that they are thrown in.

I would think that be the best to show character progression as parent but then they do with Franklin Richard he is forever a young boy never aging not to say most characters this days never shown pregnant

Oh yeah, that would be a bit annoying in the long run. It would be interesting if one of these X-Men characters acuall

would actually get married. Which X-Men couples do you think should stay married?

Wow that incredible hard question it like choosing between having your kid killed or your wife, ah let see. Havok and Polaris if you still consider them part of the X-Men first it would make the Summer family finally related to the Eisenhardt (Magneto's family) and I know it was suppose to happen in the past but Havok sort of walked out on Polaris, and let me tell you from experience it hard but you get over it. Maybe they out to give second try and for that early comment about Mangeto been too old remember he was 'de-aged and re-aged' by Alpha the Ultimate Mutant so his like 80 but his body more like that of 40 year old, the same for Xavier when he lost his body and he got new one

Havok and Polaris were pretty good together!

If she came from space pregnant and had child I would call him Christopher Eric Summer after both grandparents maybe make one of the Lights or something you know they keep making new character that show up and there families are like 'sure take my child, oh it fine never see them again'

LOL!! That's so cute!

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@CrabbyLioness said:

The X-Men have shown odd flashes of maturity in how they handle relationships lately. Regenesis read like a realistic portrayal of a divorce, with the main feeling expressed by the separating adult partners being relief that it was over. It was left to the children to show anger.

As for the couples that are being damaged by the schism, they resemble many real-world married couples I know who find themselves working in different towns due to the recession. They haven't split up, but they can't be together for work-related reasons.

Carey has given Rogue and Magneto the most deft and mature romantic relationship that I've seen any X-Couple have in a very long time. It's been a pleasure to watch two such strong-willed individuals spark and clash without losing an inch of what makes them unique. I fear the next writer will probably break them up simply because he (wanna bet it's a "he") simply won't be up to the task of writing them that well.

I agree about the Rogue and Magneto relationship. It's like when Joss Whedon wrote Colossus/Shadowcat's relationship in "Astonishing X-Men." It was such a refreshing read seeing how Colossus and Kitty matured throughout their relationship, but of course, another writer had to come in and mess up a really good relationship they had going on.

I fear sophisticated handling of relationships isn't something comic book editors look for in writers. Pity that. They might sell more if they did.

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Leliel said:

@natejoseph09 said:

Ugh Rogueneto makes me want to barf.

It not any different from all those rich older guys with younger beautiful women, he just happens to be powerful instead of rich. But what wonder is what Magneto's kids think of that

Yeah, I wonder how Quicksilver and Scarlett Witch would feel about Magneto dating Rogue.

If I was any of them I would figure not very good. My father sleeping with woman who could any moment drain his life and is know for pass love with thief, ah. But what got be awkward is Polaris she was in the X-Men with Rogue, it like working in Microsoft and dating Steve Job's daughter, it just don't feel right

Yeah, I would have been worried for my father if the person he was dating was capable of draining his life force without him knowing about it.

Maybe if they could make their relationship solid but nothing in the X-Men world is solid it not like a bad thing people move on but there bit of exageration just about everyone dated everyone at one moment or another

Yeah, it always seems so awkward to me that whenever a couple breaks up in the X-Men universe, they are always dating someone else only to end up breaking up with that person and going back to the person they broke up with in the first place. I wonder why the writers won't just let the couple either stay together permanently or break up permanently? It would be so much easier if the couples already made up their minds about who they want to date or break up with.

That always bother me and like this now we see Cyclops with Storm and previously there was Storm and Forge and she and Wolverine and the list goes on. I figure she was still with Black Panther but that show how long it lasted, the other side is that his couples last a bit but if they have a kid they last quite long until the kid is age or incredible powerful and they must do something to take care of it, such Cable in Cyclops side

Yeah, it's sad whenever one of the couples have a kid, the moment they have to do something to control their child's powers, they automatically break up once their child is gone.

How many times is that child somehow aged to adulthood? Countless times and mean the relationship between Magneto and Rogue I actually find it more real there both broken people it not good it all but I seen it happen, as for child if they had one it would be the first in 616 for Rogue but not sure if he/she would not just be killed off or like said aged automatically which if you ask me cheapens the character

Yeah, I don't understand why they are always aging the child. They should just let the child grow slowly and see how the couple handles a baby in the dangerous types of situations that they are thrown in.

I would think that be the best to show character progression as parent but then they do with Franklin Richard he is forever a young boy never aging not to say most characters this days never shown pregnant

Oh yeah, that would be a bit annoying in the long run. It would be interesting if one of these X-Men characters acuall

would actually get married. Which X-Men couples do you think should stay married?

Wow that incredible hard question it like choosing between having your kid killed or your wife, ah let see. Havok and Polaris if you still consider them part of the X-Men first it would make the Summer family finally related to the Eisenhardt (Magneto's family) and I know it was suppose to happen in the past but Havok sort of walked out on Polaris, and let me tell you from experience it hard but you get over it. Maybe they out to give second try and for that early comment about Mangeto been too old remember he was 'de-aged and re-aged' by Alpha the Ultimate Mutant so his like 80 but his body more like that of 40 year old, the same for Xavier when he lost his body and he got new one

Havok and Polaris were pretty good together!

If she came from space pregnant and had child I would call him Christopher Eric Summer after both grandparents maybe make one of the Lights or something you know they keep making new character that show up and there families are like 'sure take my child, oh it fine never see them again'

LOL!! That's so cute!

Talking about Havok I'm shock the guy never got chosen to become a Herald of Galactus you know with him been able to absorbed cosmic energies which would make for great Herald or light snack for the world eater

@CrabbyLioness said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@CrabbyLioness said:

The X-Men have shown odd flashes of maturity in how they handle relationships lately. Regenesis read like a realistic portrayal of a divorce, with the main feeling expressed by the separating adult partners being relief that it was over. It was left to the children to show anger.

As for the couples that are being damaged by the schism, they resemble many real-world married couples I know who find themselves working in different towns due to the recession. They haven't split up, but they can't be together for work-related reasons.

Carey has given Rogue and Magneto the most deft and mature romantic relationship that I've seen any X-Couple have in a very long time. It's been a pleasure to watch two such strong-willed individuals spark and clash without losing an inch of what makes them unique. I fear the next writer will probably break them up simply because he (wanna bet it's a "he") simply won't be up to the task of writing them that well.

I agree about the Rogue and Magneto relationship. It's like when Joss Whedon wrote Colossus/Shadowcat's relationship in "Astonishing X-Men." It was such a refreshing read seeing how Colossus and Kitty matured throughout their relationship, but of course, another writer had to come in and mess up a really good relationship they had going on.

I fear sophisticated handling of relationships isn't something comic book editors look for in writers. Pity that. They might sell more if they did.

Yeah, I think so too because Joss Whedon's run of "Astonishing X-Men" sell really well, but it might be because everyone knew that he worked on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" so that was able to get some attention. I can't think of any other comic book that sell well through having characters having good relationships except for Chris Claremont's earlier run of "X-Men."

uhhh here's an unresolved plot for you: WHERE'S WARREN!(Yes I know I'm being fanboyish)

@TheCrowbar said:

uhhh heres an unresolved plot for you: WHERE'S WARREN!(Yes I know I'm being fanboyish)

Oh yeah! When is he coming back?

Wasn't Magneto the one that killed Jean? So him being a member of the school named after the woman he killed would be pretty bad.

Still, the Rogue/Magneto/Gambit triangle is just a mess. One of the most groan inducing "storylines" to come out of the X-book for a while. Can't believe they allowed it to drag out for as long as it has. I wish Gambit would forget about Rogue and move on, but I guess since both are in Legacy after Schism that will probably not happen. But watch, Carey in his final issue isn't going to have the two of them get back together and is going to have her choose Mags or continue to have her not choose either of them... ugh.

@Michiel76 said:

@JonesDeini said:

@Duo_forbidden said:

@ArturoCalaKayVee: That's my thoughts exactly.

Chucks's had no say so in the mutant community ever since writers saw fit to assassinate his character circa deadly genesis.

Exactly what i'm thinking. Wherever he ends up he will be the odd one out. At the school he can't but feel that he's on the sidelines with wolverine being headmaster, he might just have a teaching job but thats it i guess, still wolverine has no telepaths at the school so he may come in handy there.

But on Utopia he has to live with his archnemesis/friend Magneto, and there is no love lost between Scott and him. He sure can't agree with Scotts methods. Than there is the small fact that he used to have feelings for Jean Grey in secret (eeew) and Scott hasn't forgotten her either although he's with Emma now (which is absurd, a strong woman like Emma would never be second choice imo) And of course all telepaths are on Utopia, so he is obsolete.

He can't go back into space cause Lilandra is dead (and she dumped him anyway) so the only thing to do is retire at this moment.

It's sad that a character that was once so powerfull a leader and basically good is now completly destroyed by some writers and he's now more of a shadow to his former self. I thought it was good to see some character flaws at the time, but they completly burned him to the ground.

So wait is he dead or is he just chilling in a corner while this all goes down?

@Munsu: well it wasnt really Magneto that killed her it was Xorn who thought he was Magneto

@Michiel76 said:

@JonesDeini said:

@Duo_forbidden said:

@ArturoCalaKayVee: That's my thoughts exactly.

Chucks's had no say so in the mutant community ever since writers saw fit to assassinate his character circa deadly genesis.

Exactly what i'm thinking. Wherever he ends up he will be the odd one out. At the school he can't but feel that he's on the sidelines with wolverine being headmaster, he might just have a teaching job but thats it i guess, still wolverine has no telepaths at the school so he may come in handy there.

But on Utopia he has to live with his archnemesis/friend Magneto, and there is no love lost between Scott and him. He sure can't agree with Scotts methods. Than there is the small fact that he used to have feelings for Jean Grey in secret (eeew) and Scott hasn't forgotten her either although he's with Emma now (which is absurd, a strong woman like Emma would never be second choice imo) And of course all telepaths are on Utopia, so he is obsolete.

He can't go back into space cause Lilandra is dead (and she dumped him anyway) so the only thing to do is retire at this moment.

It's sad that a character that was once so powerfull a leader and basically good is now completly destroyed by some writers and he's now more of a shadow to his former self. I thought it was good to see some character flaws at the time, but they completly burned him to the ground.

So wait is he dead or is he just chilling in a corner while this all goes down?

@Mutant God: Hrm, I thought it was already revealed he was Xorn. Guess I need to reread some of it then.

@Munsu: Morrison wanted it to be Magneto and have him killed off by Wolverine. Marvel Editorial allowed it and then lost their minds and reversed their decision after Morrison left the book. Morrison has been screwed by Marvel editorial and DC editorial (Countdown)

It definately makes for a good read and great drama.. but Wolverine is really being shockingly Naive. He is single handedly dooming their species and for what? To have a pissing contest with Cyclops? The Irony is that this was all brought on by Wolverine being unable to accept that the "Children" have to fight. There is no choice in that matter. While Cyclops and Wolverine fought, who saved their butts?? The kids that he didn't want to fight. There was no guarantee that bomb he planted would have even destroyed it. There is a reason the school is in ruins.. even more ironic the last time the school was standing how much "children" died? 10+?

How about this one: who's actually funding Wolverine's school? Archangel is off being evil and Emma is with Scott.

Rogue being attracted to Magneto at this point in her life is blatant character derailment. For some reason, Marvel just doesn't want Magneto to be held accountable for any of the reprehensible things he's done, so poor Rogue has to get stuck in a relationship with him to legitimize his standing amongst the X-Men.

**** you, Marvel Comics!

@jrock85 said:

Rogue being attracted to Magneto at this point in her life is blatant character derailment. For some reason, Marvel just doesn't want Magneto to be held accountable for any of the reprehensible things he's done, so poor Rogue has to get stuck in a relationship with him to legitimize his standing amongst the X-Men.

**** you, Marvel Comics

Rogue and Magneto have been attracted to each other for years. I'm pleased to see this time they're getting a proper romance where they are treated as equals.

As far as Magneto's accountability goes, Magneto believes that he has acted as a soldier to preserve the lives and liberty of his people. He has come to realize that his overzealous actions in that regard have alienated him from his family and hurt his people more than it has helped them. He has been working to atone for what he has done to both those groups for years now.

At some time (say, somewhere in Young's upcoming mini-series) it may occur to him that he also needs to atone for what he has done to the greater human race. We shall see what happens then.

*No Transonic and Hope relationship*

SCREW YOU COMICVINE!

Magneto is 80 years old at least. They need to stop that plot and bury it.  Creepy

@Metatron_Da_Don said:

Magneto is 80 years old at least. They need to stop that plot and bury it. Creepy

Am I the only one who finds it unsettling?

I have to wonder why, as I was taught age should be no barrier between consenting adults. Ageism seems creepy to me. Besides, Magneto has been de-aged and due to the nature of her power Rogue has lived more lives than her own.

The irony in the fact that Cyclops' side is the "whatever it takes" side and Wolverine's is "let kids be kids," is that the younger two generations of mutants, New Mutant alumn and Hope and the five lights are on Cyclops side.

@mickeyangel: @mickeyangel said:

The irony in the fact that Cyclops' side is the "whatever it takes" side and Wolverine's is "let kids be kids," is that the younger two generations of mutants, New Mutant alumn and Hope and the five lights are on Cyclops side.

Typical teenagers. They always want everyone to think they're older and cooler than they really are.

I havnt read xmen since like 2008/2009 around the time of legacy and the messiah complex. I thought a lot of these charecters where dead? They should just stop trying to be dramatic by killing off charecters just to bring them back six months latter. But if you ask me it all kinda has a pre age of apocolips feel to it all. Maybe an age of Cyclops instead? Maybe. Beast go back to the school so he can have a bunch of youngmutants to experiment on and storm staying with cyclops to throw a wrenchhh in his evil plans?I bet whatever they plan it wont matter in a few months. I would like to add i have read the first ten issues of the wolverine led xforce and in my opinion that felt like the only x title worth reading all the best killers in the xmens stableripping up bodies was the right placefor  wolvorine.

@mickeyangel: Not quite. Four of five Lights went with Cyclops, as did most of the New Mutants. But the majority of the Young X-men, Cannonball, Husk, and Oya took off with Wolverine to Westchester. That's about hlf and half, I reckon. But I wouldn't be surprised if that doesn't stay that way for long...Transonic for one would make a lot more sense on Wolverine's side...

@CrabbyLioness: Rogue rejected Magneto over 20 years ago for his atrocities, and hasn't given a crap about him since; so I find it to be very contrived for her to all of sudden be able to disregard all the innocent blood on his hands, or him all of sudden wanting to be redeemed for his crimes. Don't get me wrong. Magneto is definitely a sympathetic villain, but his actions have made him irredeemable IMO.

I think the most important unresolved issue here is: Why is the guy running the black ops biz quitting the army to form a school, and keep the black ops running??? Wolverine is acting WAY out of character here, this thing really doesn't make sense :( Not to mention X-23, Gambit, Jubilee, Danger, Sebastian Shaw... this cats shouldn't be X-Men at all!

@spikevalentine said:

I think the most important unresolved issue here is: Why is the guy running the black ops biz quitting the army to form a school, and keep the black ops running??? Wolverine is acting WAY out of character here, this thing really doesn't make sense :( Not to mention X-23, Gambit, Jubilee, Danger, Sebastian Shaw... this cats shouldn't be X-Men at all!

I'm still trying to figure that out too...

Maybe the Avengers are paying for the school

could someone post info of jubilee in schism? thats the only part i never got to pick up on

@zero6 said:

could someone post info of jubilee in schism? thats the only part i never got to pick up on

That's what I'm trying to figure out too. Hopefully, things will go back to normal after this event.

That Rogue and Magneto stuff needs to be killed.

I think the most important unresolved issue here is: Why is the guy running the black ops biz quitting the army to form a school, and keep the black ops running??? Wolverine is acting WAY out of character here, this thing really doesn't make sense :( Not to mention X-23, Gambit, Jubilee, Danger, Sebastian Shaw... this cats shouldn't be X-Men at all!

@HotSauceCommittee: No, not really, X-Force had X-23 (there was some drama, but then again...) and Elixir. He never had problems going into battle along with Kitty, Jubilee, Magik, the rejuvenated Ororo, and he even fought Marrow (she was 18 at most). Also, when Cyke told Xavier to "fuck-off" it was because Xavier took him and made him a soldier for his cause at a young age, does that make sense to you?

What has happened to Angel/Archangel? (I haven't read X-force) Last I heard he was in line to become Apocalypse in the dystopian timeline and some guy resembling Holocaust was there also.

@Or35ti said:

Great article.

@fodigg said:

As for these ongoing plots, the one that bothers me the most is Hank McCoy's self-righteous hypocrisy. In Secret Avengers he blew up an underground city with a nuclear device, killing quite a few people. If he's on the Secret Avengers and Wolverine is on X-Force (in addition to his killing sprees in his solo title) it just doesn't make sense for either of them to take this stand or to be this pleased with themselves. I still think Wolverine should have been swapped out for Storm. (Thread on that here.)

You have a really good point, my friend and I have to say I agree. I hate hypocrisy and when characters act differently when they are in more than one title. But I think the reason Wolverine wasn't swapped out for Storm (which admittedly would have made a lot more sense) is because Cyclops and Wolverine are the two most popular X-Men. I really wanna see Cyclops and Storm fight again for leadership but for a 5-issue tension building conflict it just had to be the two alpha males of the group.

Don't think that Hank is being hypocritical, at least not completely, as there are a few important differences with what he's doing in Secret Avengers and what Logan is doing in X-Force.

Logan's remit for X-Force is to stop the bad guys by killing them whereas Secret Avengers is just to stop the bad guys, but with the same general no-kill policy of the regular Avengers. Hank's team is only secret so they get the jump on the bad guys before they do bad things. X-Force is the same but, also needs to stay secret so that the mainstream X-Teams and Avengers don't find out they're killing people and shut them down.

In the 'nuked underground fortress' scenario Beast and the team were absolutely backed into a corner where it was a case of kill the bad guys or let humongous numbers of civilians die. Hank still had a moral problem with this but could see there was no other option.You could see that he was beating himself up about having to do it and it didn't come lightly to him. Given the same situation I don't think that the Avengers, New Avengers, X-Men, etc would have acted any differently. Contrast this with Logan's team. As mentioned, it's remit is to stop the bad guys by killing them. No half measures here, no qualms and not much room for taking a moral stand point or showing mercy as an option. I mean, X-force's first mission was to basically kill a kid because he might become Apocalypse. That's might, not "already was" or "can't stop from becoming". There's no way Hank and his SA team would have even had that on the table as a option!

In short, yes you can accuse Hank of being self-righteous and hypocritical, just not for the reasons outlined in the original post. I'd say there far more of an argument for calling him a hypocrite due to the fact that he's dating Agent Brand from SWORD, a lady who's ethics and attitude to killing closely resemble that of Logan!

@Daycrawler said:

Don't think that Hank is being hypocritical, at least not completely, as there are a few important differences with what he's doing in Secret Avengers and what Logan is doing in X-Force.

Logan's remit for X-Force is to stop the bad guys by killing them whereas Secret Avengers is just to stop the bad guys, but with the same general no-kill policy of the regular Avengers. Hank's team is only secret so they get the jump on the bad guys before they do bad things. X-Force is the same but, also needs to stay secret so that the mainstream X-Teams and Avengers don't find out they're killing people and shut them down.

In the 'nuked underground fortress' scenario Beast and the team were absolutely backed into a corner where it was a case of kill the bad guys or let humongous numbers of civilians die. Hank still had a moral problem with this but could see there was no other option.You could see that he was beating himself up about having to do it and it didn't come lightly to him. Given the same situation I don't think that the Avengers, New Avengers, X-Men, etc would have acted any differently. Contrast this with Logan's team. As mentioned, it's remit is to stop the bad guys by killing them. No half measures here, no qualms and not much room for taking a moral stand point or showing mercy as an option. I mean, X-force's first mission was to basically kill a kid because he might become Apocalypse. That's might, not "already was" or "can't stop from becoming". There's no way Hank and his SA team would have even had that on the table as a option!

In short, yes you can accuse Hank of being self-righteous and hypocritical, just not for the reasons outlined in the original post. I'd say there far more of an argument for calling him a hypocrite due to the fact that he's dating Agent Brand from SWORD, a lady who's ethics and attitude to killing closely resemble that of Logan!

I think that X-Force and the Secret Avengers are very similar in their intent, which is to covertly track down and eliminate potential threats rather than waiting for an attack. What I consider the "Outsiders" approach to super-heroing. They are far more aggressive than traditional superheroes before the issue of kill/no-kill is even brought up.

Regarding that issue, however, the Secret Avengers do kill. They go into missions with the full expectation that lethal force might be necessary. And not just the nuke situation, but generally. Hence why Super Soldier Steve Rogers feels it's necessary to justify not killing enemies when he gives "I want him alive" orders. This team does not follow the usual Avengers precedent of "no killing" by default. It has to be explicitly stated.

Don't get me wrong, I understand they're less "hey whoa yeah let's kill" than say, Deadpool, and don't consider themselves a hit squad or "mook" enemies to be fair game for wanton slaughter. They are different from X-Force, but only by matter of degree. The fact that Beastfeels bad about killing doesn't change his participation on a team like the Secret Avengers. Just as it's hypocritical to nag on Scott's approach to handling the X-Men and then buddy up to James Logan "X-Force" Howlett, it's hypocritical to join a team like the Secret Avengers and then wring his hands when they suddenly are put in a position where they have to serve their purpose by wielding lethal proactive violence.

@fodigg said:

@Daycrawler said:

Don't think that Hank is being hypocritical, at least not completely, as there are a few important differences with what he's doing in Secret Avengers and what Logan is doing in X-Force.

Logan's remit for X-Force is to stop the bad guys by killing them whereas Secret Avengers is just to stop the bad guys, but with the same general no-kill policy of the regular Avengers. Hank's team is only secret so they get the jump on the bad guys before they do bad things. X-Force is the same but, also needs to stay secret so that the mainstream X-Teams and Avengers don't find out they're killing people and shut them down.

In the 'nuked underground fortress' scenario Beast and the team were absolutely backed into a corner where it was a case of kill the bad guys or let humongous numbers of civilians die. Hank still had a moral problem with this but could see there was no other option.You could see that he was beating himself up about having to do it and it didn't come lightly to him. Given the same situation I don't think that the Avengers, New Avengers, X-Men, etc would have acted any differently. Contrast this with Logan's team. As mentioned, it's remit is to stop the bad guys by killing them. No half measures here, no qualms and not much room for taking a moral stand point or showing mercy as an option. I mean, X-force's first mission was to basically kill a kid because he might become Apocalypse. That's might, not "already was" or "can't stop from becoming". There's no way Hank and his SA team would have even had that on the table as a option!

In short, yes you can accuse Hank of being self-righteous and hypocritical, just not for the reasons outlined in the original post. I'd say there far more of an argument for calling him a hypocrite due to the fact that he's dating Agent Brand from SWORD, a lady who's ethics and attitude to killing closely resemble that of Logan!

I think that X-Force and the Secret Avengers are very similar in their intent, which is to covertly track down and eliminate potential threats rather than waiting for an attack. What I consider the "Outsiders" approach to super-heroing. They are far more aggressive than traditional superheroes before the issue of kill/no-kill is even brought up.

Regarding that issue, however, the Secret Avengers do kill. They go into missions with the full expectation that lethal force might be necessary. And not just the nuke situation, but generally. Hence why Super Soldier Steve Rogers feels it's necessary to justify not killing enemies when he gives "I want him alive" orders. This team does not follow the usual Avengers precedent of "no killing" by default. It has to be explicitly stated.

Don't get me wrong, I understand they're less "hey whoa yeah let's kill" than say, Deadpool, and don't consider themselves a hit squad or "mook" enemies to be fair game for wanton slaughter. They are different from X-Force, but only by matter of degree. The fact that Beastfeels bad about killing doesn't change his participation on a team like the Secret Avengers. Just as it's hypocritical to nag on Scott's approach to handling the X-Men and then buddy up to James Logan "X-Force" Howlett, it's hypocritical to join a team like the Secret Avengers and then wring his hands when they suddenly are put in a position where they have to serve their purpose by wielding lethal proactive violence.

Fair points, though I do feel that if your on a team with Steve Rogers as the lead then you know your not on an out and out kill squad and that killing is a definite no-no unless absolutely unavoidable. Still a far cry from Logan's team. Killing has ever been Steve's M.O. , though if pushed to a point where there's no other option, he will (as will pretty much any hero I'm sure - they're not faultless saints). I see the "I want him alive" order more of a warning/reminder to some of the more, shall we say 'pro-active' members of his team from actually taking things too far and killing, rather than an order to explicitly state that "this time, don't kill!. I mean, he's got Moon Knight (loopy), Valkyrie (Asgardian warrior, no qualms in killing in battle) and Black Widow (spy/assassin) on his team, so of course he's going to re-iterate that bad guys should be brought in alive. I think that the SA's mandate is to stop threat, without killing if at all possible, as opposed to stop the threat and killing is an expected and acceptable action if it comes up.

Still think SA's are poles apart from X-Force on the point of killing. Yeah it's a matter of degree, but I think it's a very large degree and enough of a degree which means Hank isn't a hypocrite. Naive and blinded by the Avengers brand and Steve's involvement perhaps, but not a hypocrite. The point that would make him a hypocrite is if he joined the SA's where Steve said "Okay guys, were going to seek out bad guys and stop their plans before they get anywhere, and we will have to kill people. Don't hesitate to if you need to". To my knowledge, this hasn't been said by anyone. Sure, there's the implicitness of having to kill bad guys when being in the team, but that can be said of any of the X-Men and Avengers teams. Put yourself into violent conflict with bad guys and it's inevitable, whether your aim is to kill or not! X-Force on the otherhand practically have killing bad guys written down in a charter and are happy to play judge, jury and executioner. Big difference.

I agree that X-Force and Secret Avengers have similar mandates, but I still reckon the the SA's would have an clear no kill policy and that this is one of the major distinctions between them and X-Force and Hank and Logan. Besides the whole killing/X-Force issue, Hank has a number of other grievances with Scott that he doesn't have with Logan, e.g. the militaristic running of Utopia, accepting Magneto on the team, using kids/team members as pawns and acceptable to lose (e.g. NightCrawler). X-Force was just the biggest and last in a long line of disagreements that Hank had with Scott. At the moment he shares much more common ground with Logan than Scott. That's not to say he's forgiven Logan for X-Force and they will be best buddies though. I'm sure he's siding with Logan for reasons that are less to do with Logan himself and more to do with the original ideals of the X-Men and Xaviers dream. It'll be interesting to see if he stays on the Secret Avengers too. If he doesn't, then perhaps his discomfort on the recent mission with Moon Night/Black Widow/etc has burst the bubble of naivety there and made him want to take a step back from being on any team where killing may be even a remote possibility. Instead, he'll return to teaching at the school full time?

@Daycrawler said:

@fodigg said:

I think that X-Force and the Secret Avengers are very similar in their intent, which is to covertly track down and eliminate potential threats rather than waiting for an attack. What I consider the "Outsiders" approach to super-heroing. They are far more aggressive than traditional superheroes before the issue of kill/no-kill is even brought up.

Regarding that issue, however, the Secret Avengers do kill. They go into missions with the full expectation that lethal force might be necessary. And not just the nuke situation, but generally. Hence why Super Soldier Steve Rogers feels it's necessary to justify not killing enemies when he gives "I want him alive" orders. This team does not follow the usual Avengers precedent of "no killing" by default. It has to be explicitly stated.

Don't get me wrong, I understand they're less "hey whoa yeah let's kill" than say, Deadpool, and don't consider themselves a hit squad or "mook" enemies to be fair game for wanton slaughter. They are different from X-Force, but only by matter of degree. The fact that Beastfeels bad about killing doesn't change his participation on a team like the Secret Avengers. Just as it's hypocritical to nag on Scott's approach to handling the X-Men and then buddy up to James Logan "X-Force" Howlett, it's hypocritical to join a team like the Secret Avengers and then wring his hands when they suddenly are put in a position where they have to serve their purpose by wielding lethal proactive violence.

Fair points, though I do feel that if your on a team with Steve Rogers as the lead then you know your not on an out and out kill squad and that killing is a definite no-no unless absolutely unavoidable. Still a far cry from Logan's team. Killing has ever been Steve's M.O. , though if pushed to a point where there's no other option, he will (as will pretty much any hero I'm sure - they're not faultless saints). I see the "I want him alive" order more of a warning/reminder to some of the more, shall we say 'pro-active' members of his team from actually taking things too far and killing, rather than an order to explicitly state that "this time, don't kill!. I mean, he's got Moon Knight (loopy), Valkyrie (Asgardian warrior, no qualms in killing in battle) and Black Widow (spy/assassin) on his team, so of course he's going to re-iterate that bad guys should be brought in alive. I think that the SA's mandate is to stop threat, without killing if at all possible, as opposed to stop the threat and killing is an expected and acceptable action if it comes up.

Still think SA's are poles apart from X-Force on the point of killing. Yeah it's a matter of degree, but I think it's a very large degree and enough of a degree which means Hank isn't a hypocrite. Naive and blinded by the Avengers brand and Steve's involvement perhaps, but not a hypocrite. The point that would make him a hypocrite is if he joined the SA's where Steve said "Okay guys, were going to seek out bad guys and stop their plans before they get anywhere, and we will have to kill people. Don't hesitate to if you need to". To my knowledge, this hasn't been said by anyone. Sure, there's the implicitness of having to kill bad guys when being in the team, but that can be said of any of the X-Men and Avengers teams. Put yourself into violent conflict with bad guys and it's inevitable, whether your aim is to kill or not! X-Force on the otherhand practically have killing bad guys written down in a charter and are happy to play judge, jury and executioner. Big difference.

I agree that X-Force and Secret Avengers have similar mandates, but I still reckon the the SA's would have an clear no kill policy and that this is one of the major distinctions between them and X-Force and Hank and Logan. Besides the whole killing/X-Force issue, Hank has a number of other grievances with Scott that he doesn't have with Logan, e.g. the militaristic running of Utopia, accepting Magneto on the team, using kids/team members as pawns and acceptable to lose (e.g. NightCrawler). X-Force was just the biggest and last in a long line of disagreements that Hank had with Scott. At the moment he shares much more common ground with Logan than Scott. That's not to say he's forgiven Logan for X-Force and they will be best buddies though. I'm sure he's siding with Logan for reasons that are less to do with Logan himself and more to do with the original ideals of the X-Men and Xaviers dream. It'll be interesting to see if he stays on the Secret Avengers too. If he doesn't, then perhaps his discomfort on the recent mission with Moon Night/Black Widow/etc has burst the bubble of naivety there and made him want to take a step back from being on any team where killing may be even a remote possibility. Instead, he'll return to teaching at the school full time?

I think it's kind of interesting that you're saying the inclusion of Rogers means it's not a vicious team, but then go on to admit that Rogers kills when he has to and then list all the "pro-active" killers that are also members. I actually think the nature of the roster is in my favor here. As for your hypothetical recruitment quote, I don't think it's been said anywhere, no, but I do think that's exactly the attitude considering their actions and dialogue. Also, Hank sticks around even after taking lives. I think it's pretty clear what the Secret Avengers are when Hank makes that decision. (Actually, I'm not sure if he stays on Hawkeye's team. I think he does but I can't remember for sure. Okay, judging by the cover art here he does.)

Again, I do see the difference but the intent is the same for both teams and the difference between being willing to kill and being willing to kill a lot is not so different in my opinion. Remember, Hank is not only on the Secret Avengers, but joining with the man who led (and still leads, although Hank may not know that) X-Force and that means he's tacitly approving X-Force or at the very least arbitrarily laying the blame exclusively on Scott.

Perhaps he is siding with Logan simply because that's who's building the school and that means he's willing to sort-of overlook Wolverine's involvement with X-Men (as well as his solo adventures), but I'd argue that that is hypocritical in itself.

---

Hank's affiliations are all against him. He:

• Sides with Wolverine over Cyclops because Cyclops ordered X-Force for a time even though Wolverine has been "X-Force-ish" since forever and wasn't exactly a bystander in the actions of the team.
• Joins Secret Avengers even though it's basically the Avengers version of X-Force, the difference being it's less brutal but otherwise has the same exact mandate and has killed.
• Works with/dates SWORD director Abigail Brand who was willing to keep Colossus imprisoned and torture him for years because, hey, greater good and all that.
• When he was trying to cure the M-Day effect he seeks the help of the most despicable villains, including the Dark Beast.

Hank just, he's a contradiction to begin with because he's supposed to be a pacifist and yet he beats people up. But hey, how else do you do a superhero pacifist? Then he has numerous associations with people who are definitely NOT pacifists. Then he's pressed into committing actions that definitely NOT something a pacifist would ever do. Again, okay, it's a stretch but I can take it because why else do you write a pacifist onto a team book like this except to challenge him by putting him in situations where that pacifism will be called into question? That's all acceptable to me. I get that.

Except then he has this one, hard-liner stand against Cyclops for seemingly no reason other than he feels that Scott should not be like that. Yet Hank doesn't make any effort to sever his own darker ties or to hold anyone else to the same bar that he holds Scott. And now, even after Scott has ended and disavowed X-Force, Hank continues to stand against him and disparage him to the point where he's even calling him up to taunt the division of the X-Men. When the WHOLE time he has not altered his own behavior. The WHOLE time he still has close connections with all these vicious persons. The WHOLE time he's still an active member on a black-ops team.

But hey, siding with Wolverine allows him to play school teacher and continue to rail against Scott and act like the blood on his own hands doesn't stink. And that's fine, I guess, but it IS hypocritical.

@fodigg said:

@Daycrawler said:

@fodigg said:

I think that X-Force and the Secret Avengers are very similar in their intent, which is to covertly track down and eliminate potential threats rather than waiting for an attack. What I consider the "Outsiders" approach to super-heroing. They are far more aggressive than traditional superheroes before the issue of kill/no-kill is even brought up.

Regarding that issue, however, the Secret Avengers do kill. They go into missions with the full expectation that lethal force might be necessary. And not just the nuke situation, but generally. Hence why Super Soldier Steve Rogers feels it's necessary to justify not killing enemies when he gives "I want him alive" orders. This team does not follow the usual Avengers precedent of "no killing" by default. It has to be explicitly stated.

Don't get me wrong, I understand they're less "hey whoa yeah let's kill" than say, Deadpool, and don't consider themselves a hit squad or "mook" enemies to be fair game for wanton slaughter. They are different from X-Force, but only by matter of degree. The fact that Beastfeels bad about killing doesn't change his participation on a team like the Secret Avengers. Just as it's hypocritical to nag on Scott's approach to handling the X-Men and then buddy up to James Logan "X-Force" Howlett, it's hypocritical to join a team like the Secret Avengers and then wring his hands when they suddenly are put in a position where they have to serve their purpose by wielding lethal proactive violence.

Fair points, though I do feel that if your on a team with Steve Rogers as the lead then you know your not on an out and out kill squad and that killing is a definite no-no unless absolutely unavoidable. Still a far cry from Logan's team. Killing has ever been Steve's M.O. , though if pushed to a point where there's no other option, he will (as will pretty much any hero I'm sure - they're not faultless saints). I see the "I want him alive" order more of a warning/reminder to some of the more, shall we say 'pro-active' members of his team from actually taking things too far and killing, rather than an order to explicitly state that "this time, don't kill!. I mean, he's got Moon Knight (loopy), Valkyrie (Asgardian warrior, no qualms in killing in battle) and Black Widow (spy/assassin) on his team, so of course he's going to re-iterate that bad guys should be brought in alive. I think that the SA's mandate is to stop threat, without killing if at all possible, as opposed to stop the threat and killing is an expected and acceptable action if it comes up.

Still think SA's are poles apart from X-Force on the point of killing. Yeah it's a matter of degree, but I think it's a very large degree and enough of a degree which means Hank isn't a hypocrite. Naive and blinded by the Avengers brand and Steve's involvement perhaps, but not a hypocrite. The point that would make him a hypocrite is if he joined the SA's where Steve said "Okay guys, were going to seek out bad guys and stop their plans before they get anywhere, and we will have to kill people. Don't hesitate to if you need to". To my knowledge, this hasn't been said by anyone. Sure, there's the implicitness of having to kill bad guys when being in the team, but that can be said of any of the X-Men and Avengers teams. Put yourself into violent conflict with bad guys and it's inevitable, whether your aim is to kill or not! X-Force on the otherhand practically have killing bad guys written down in a charter and are happy to play judge, jury and executioner. Big difference.

I agree that X-Force and Secret Avengers have similar mandates, but I still reckon the the SA's would have an clear no kill policy and that this is one of the major distinctions between them and X-Force and Hank and Logan. Besides the whole killing/X-Force issue, Hank has a number of other grievances with Scott that he doesn't have with Logan, e.g. the militaristic running of Utopia, accepting Magneto on the team, using kids/team members as pawns and acceptable to lose (e.g. NightCrawler). X-Force was just the biggest and last in a long line of disagreements that Hank had with Scott. At the moment he shares much more common ground with Logan than Scott. That's not to say he's forgiven Logan for X-Force and they will be best buddies though. I'm sure he's siding with Logan for reasons that are less to do with Logan himself and more to do with the original ideals of the X-Men and Xaviers dream. It'll be interesting to see if he stays on the Secret Avengers too. If he doesn't, then perhaps his discomfort on the recent mission with Moon Night/Black Widow/etc has burst the bubble of naivety there and made him want to take a step back from being on any team where killing may be even a remote possibility. Instead, he'll return to teaching at the school full time?

I think it's kind of interesting that you're saying the inclusion of Rogers means it's not a vicious team, but then go on to admit that Rogers kills when he has to and then list all the "pro-active" killers that are also members. I actually think the nature of the roster is in my favor here. As for your hypothetical recruitment quote, I don't think it's been said anywhere, no, but I do think that's exactly the attitude considering their actions and dialogue. Also, Hank sticks around even after taking lives. I think it's pretty clear what the Secret Avengers are when Hank makes that decision. (Actually, I'm not sure if he stays on Hawkeye's team. I think he does but I can't remember for sure. Okay, judging by the cover art here he does.)

Again, I do see the difference but the intent is the same for both teams and the difference between being willing to kill and being willing to kill a lot is not so different in my opinion. Remember, Hank is not only on the Secret Avengers, but joining with the man who led (and still leads, although Hank may not know that) X-Force and that means he's tacitly approving X-Force or at the very least arbitrarily laying the blame exclusively on Scott.

Perhaps he is siding with Logan simply because that's who's building the school and that means he's willing to sort-of overlook Wolverine's involvement with X-Men (as well as his solo adventures), but I'd argue that that is hypocritical in itself.

---

Hank's affiliations are all against him. He:

• Sides with Wolverine over Cyclops because Cyclops ordered X-Force for a time even though Wolverine has been "X-Force-ish" since forever and wasn't exactly a bystander in the actions of the team.
• Joins Secret Avengers even though it's basically the Avengers version of X-Force, the difference being it's less brutal but otherwise has the same exact mandate and has killed.
• Works with/dates SWORD director Abigail Brand who was willing to keep Colossus imprisoned and torture him for years because, hey, greater good and all that.
• When he was trying to cure the M-Day effect he seeks the help of the most despicable villains, including the Dark Beast.

Hank just, he's a contradiction to begin with because he's supposed to be a pacifist and yet he beats people up. But hey, how else do you do a superhero pacifist? Then he has numerous associations with people who are definitely NOT pacifists. Then he's pressed into committing actions that definitely NOT something a pacifist would ever do. Again, okay, it's a stretch but I can take it because why else do you write a pacifist onto a team book like this except to challenge him by putting him in situations where that pacifism will be called into question? That's all acceptable to me. I get that.

Except then he has this one, hard-liner stand against Cyclops for seemingly no reason other than he feels that Scott should not be like that. Yet Hank doesn't make any effort to sever his own darker ties or to hold anyone else to the same bar that he holds Scott. And now, even after Scott has ended and disavowed X-Force, Hank continues to stand against him and disparage him to the point where he's even calling him up to taunt the division of the X-Men. When the WHOLE time he has not altered his own behavior. The WHOLE time he still has close connections with all these vicious persons. The WHOLE time he's still an active member on a black-ops team.

But hey, siding with Wolverine allows him to play school teacher and continue to rail against Scott and act like the blood on his own hands doesn't stink. And that's fine, I guess, but it IS hypocritical.

Good points sir! However, I was really only focusing on the issue of people calling Hank a hypocrite due to his Secret Avengers membership and the perceived wrongness of that team when compared to X-Force. I'd already raised the point that he had Abigail Brand as a girlfriend and that this was definitely hypocritical of him. Had forgotten about the Endangered Species stuff, well remembered. Agree with you on this point too. And he was a dipsh!t for taunting Scott on the phone in Regenesis.

Like I said, I don't think he's joining Logan at the school cos he's made up with Logan or now condones/pardons his actions. My guess is that it's due to the larger ideals of the school and his wish to ensure that it works. It's a lesser of two evils kinda deal going down here - best interests of Mutantkind over his own issue (though he basically should've done what Logan is doing now rather than leaving Utopia in a huff!). What Logan is doing is what Hank thinks is, for once, a good idea. It will be hypocritical of him to go back to the school and be cosy with Logan. My guess/hope will be that it's written as a frosty relationship with an underlying degree of mistrust and resentment from Hanks point of view. If it's not this way, then yeah, McCoy's a grade A hypocrite! Would also be hypocritical of McCoy to still complain about mutantkind heading in the wrong direction under Scott and then do nothing when an opportunity arises to help someone, even Logan, work towards a more brighter, optimistic future.

It could be that he's being so hard-line against Scott due to their long standing friendship and shared ideals prior to this. For Hank, what Scott has done/condoned is such a radical departure from the Scott he knew that it's hard to to take and hurts. Spiteful things are said and done when people are emotionally hurt. Lets not forget that Scott also let Hank be tortured by Osborn longer then need be, purely for strategic reasons. That would leave a bitter streak a mile wide in most people. In short I can see reasons why Scott seems to be a particular target for Hanks rage and anger when Logan isn't so much. Hank would have been way less surprised to learn that Logan was on a kill team than he would have been to learn that Scott sanctioned it.

Superhero pacifist. Hmm, get what you mean. You could almost level the same criticism against Spidey being on the regular Avengers with Wolvie. Okay he's unware about X-Force but he knows enough about Wolvie to know he's a killer who could kill whilst on an Avengers mission. Going back to your point about the 'vicious' team members, I didn't describe them as this. I just pointed out that some of them are former killers. To me, vicious means Daken or Bullseye, and that's not a comparison I was making. I was not suggesting that was why they were recruited to SA either. All I was saying is that Steve was just cautioning against killing as he was well aware of their past and things can happen in the heat of the moment. It'd be the same as Iron Man reigning in Wolvie or Rulk in the regular Avengers. Having these guys on Secret Avengers doesn't mean an unspoken acceptance within the team that killing is fine any time you like. Rather, he's picking experts in their field - Black Widow (espionage/infiltration), Valkyrie (heavy hitter), Moon Knight (stealth and combat prowess), etc - rather than for their skills in killing people. Lets face it, all flavors of Avengers have had dodgy people on the roster at some point. I think that a throw-away comment like "I want him alive" and some dead bad guys in a few stories doesn't equate to an explicit and accepted stance on killing bad guys being okay. Sure SAs had to kill, but it was in an extreme no-win situation (the underground base nuke) and Hank was visibly upset and doubt-filled about it. I still maintain that this is miles away from what X-Force do in terms of how they approach killing and black ops in general.With X-Force it's black and white re: the need to kill, whereas with SA it's not at all and is to be avoided if possible. I mean, the in the same story about the underground city that get's nuked, they're all armed with non-lethal weapons (the dart gun tranqs). Not exactly the sign of a kill squad or even a team that goes out always thinking they may have to kill. Plus, when Ant-Man came on board, Steve was putting it on the table as a step towards redemption for him (same for Moon Knight too I think), a path away from being a bad guy. Doesn't sound like Steve would then turn round and say "okay, your a good guy now, but you gotta kill people, even though your were not a killer when you were a bad guy". Not exactly redemptive.

In short, yes Secret Avengers may be in more situations where they have to contemplate killing, but not that much more than regular Avengers and certainly nowhere near as much as X-Force given that they actively seek it out! As stated before, all superhero teams will face the question of 'to kill or not to kill?' anyway. With X-Force, their mission statement is 'stop the bad guys by killing them' whereas Secret Avengers is 'Stop the bad guys' - nothing has been written state out-right or strongly imply that killing is okay or expected for SA.

@Daycrawler:

Great post! It is, however, very long so I'm going to segment it a bit in my reply and only quote certain points. Please don't think I'm trying to cherry-pick quotes or ignoring the stuff I don't explicitly quote.

I was really only focusing on the issue of people calling Hank a hypocrite due to his Secret Avengers membership and the perceived wrongness of that team when compared to X-Force.

My apologies, I was just kind of riffing off of him being hypocritical about the whole situation.

I don't think he's joining Logan at the school cos he's made up with Logan or now condones/pardons his actions. My guess is that it's due to the larger ideals of the school and his wish to ensure that it works. It's a lesser of two evils kinda deal going down here - best interests of Mutantkind over his own issue (though he basically should've done what Logan is doing now rather than leaving Utopia in a huff!).

I think this is a great point. My problem is not that Hank doesn't like what Scott is doing and wants to go rejoin the school. My problem is that he doesn't like what Scott is doing and is 1) on a black ops steam, in addition to other questionable associations, and 2) is rejoining a school led by Wolverine.

I think it would've made a lot more sense if he'd restarted the school immediately after leaving instead of, you know, joining SWORD and Secret Avengers. But then I think a number of other characters might have been a better choice than Wolverine for his perspective (thread plug). But of course sales needs it to be Wolverine cause he's the most popular character. And I suppose casting against expectations can be interesting. It worked in Wolverine and the X-Men.

Lesser of two evils is a good way to spin it, but that's not what I saw in Regenesis where he basically says "I'm so in, girlfriend" to Logan.

It could be that he's being so hard-line against Scott due to their long standing friendship and shared ideals prior to this. For Hank, what Scott has done/condoned is such a radical departure from the Scott he knew that it's hard to to take and hurts. Spiteful things are said and done when people are emotionally hurt. Lets not forget that Scott also let Hank be tortured by Osborn longer then need be, purely for strategic reasons. That would leave a bitter streak a mile wide in most people.

I'd actually forgotten about the torture thing. That does make his embitterment toward Scott more understandable but I would argue would not make him any less hypocritical. And if I'm recalling it correctly, the context of that seemed to make it pretty justifiable. I don't remember the exact strategic reason given for it, but I recall thinking it seemed pretty defensible at the time that I read it. That it wasn't "we're to busy right now" or something.

Superhero pacifist. Hmm, get what you mean.

Yeah, I'm not sure how else to describe the archetype. I mean, no I'm-gonna-punch-you-in-the-face superhero is a literal pacifist, but within the context of superhero characters there's definitely a hard-line "no killing, no compromises" sub-set including the likes of Beast and Spider-Man. I thought the 90s X-Men cartoon did an interesting portrayal of that side of Hank when they had him willingly staying in prison so he could have his day in court.

You could almost level the same criticism against Spidey being on the regular Avengers with Wolvie. Okay he's unware about X-Force but he knows enough about Wolvie to know he's a killer who could kill whilst on an Avengers mission.

You could, but Avengers are still "no kill" and we do see him speaking up vehemently against any talk of killing, and he's so against working with Victoria Hand that even I think it gets a little annoying. We haven't really seen that with Hank. Then again, we've seen Spidey have team-ups even with Punisher so yeah I'd argue he's not perfect.

Going back to your point about the 'vicious' team members, I didn't describe them as this. I just pointed out that some of them are former killers. To me, vicious means Daken or Bullseye, and that's not a comparison I was making. I was not suggesting that was why they were recruited to SA either. All I was saying is that Steve was just cautioning against killing as he was well aware of their past and things can happen in the heat of the moment. It'd be the same as Iron Man reigning in Wolvie or Rulk in the regular Avengers. Having these guys on Secret Avengers doesn't mean an unspoken acceptance within the team that killing is fine any time you like. Rather, he's picking experts in their field - Black Widow (espionage/infiltration), Valkyrie (heavy hitter), Moon Knight (stealth and combat prowess), etc - rather than for their skills in killing people. Lets face it, all flavors of Avengers have had dodgy people on the roster at some point. I think that a throw-away comment like "I want him alive" and some dead bad guys in a few stories doesn't equate to an explicit and accepted stance on killing bad guys being okay.

Okay, I can understand that. I agree that Secret Avengers don't go out of their way to kill or go on missions where the explicit goal is to kill people, unlike X-Force. It was not my intention to argue that. And I also agree that having members on the team who have killed or are considered violent doesn't necessarily make everyone on a team culpable as killers or else I think everyone in the Marvel universe would be to blame for something or other. Deadpool has a lot of team-ups, for example.

However, I do still think that the modus operandi of Secret Avengers is "if it's necessary to kill, kill," which is very different from standard Avengers and Hank's supposed philosophy. I maintain that it's not that different being willing to kill and being willing to kill a lot. Remember, X-Force doesn't indiscriminately kill either (or at least, are not supposed to) and even they have had ethical qualms about their missions. Heck, wasn't it Deadpool that spoke up against killing Apocalypse cause he was a kid? I still think that while SA is very different tone than XF, it is a black ops team with all that implies and I think Beast's participation on that team really robs him of the moral high ground when critiquing Scott about XF. (And that even without mentioning the inconsistency of giving Wolverine a pass.)

In short, yes Secret Avengers may be in more situations where they have to contemplate killing, but not that much more than regular Avengers and certainly nowhere near as much as X-Force given that they actively seek it out! As stated before, all superhero teams will face the question of 'to kill or not to kill?' anyway. With X-Force, their mission statement is 'stop the bad guys by killing them' whereas Secret Avengers is 'Stop the bad guys' - nothing has been written state out-right or strongly imply that killing is okay or expected for SA.

I understand the distinction here and I am not denying it. X-Force is a literal hit squad. It's missions are "kill this person." That's a step above Secret Avenger's usual missions which are more like "investigate this" or "shut down this enemy installation." I don't want you to think I'm denying that or disregarding that.

However, I don't see SA as the same as a regular super hero squad. I think they are willing to kill, we've seen them willing to kill, and with the exception of Beast, it's staffed by characters who have shown they are willing to kill. And Beast joins their ranks in the pages of the book. I don't see the Avengers or the X-Men or Fantastic Four in that light. Depending on the writer and situation that can crop up, of course (the recent Avengers Academy tie-in for Fear Itself for example, where two students kill enemies and are told by Tigress that they were right to do so and should be ready to do so again), but I think "combat is dangerous" is a far cry different from "let's find this enemy base and wipe it out, in secret."

I worry that I'm not articulating my point well enough. Maybe some metaphorical examples:

• Avengers (written normally), Fantastic Four, X-Men (written normally): No killing. Occasionally, someone is killed accidentally in a fight.
• Avengers (written "edgy"), X-Men (written "edgy"), Defenders: A cop being fired upon shoots back and kills the suspect. A cop sees a suspect pull a weapon and shoots first.
• Secret Avengers, Invaders: A police sniper taking out a hostage taker before he can harm the hostages. A SWAT team taking out a terrorist cell in a populated area--flashbangs and wrist-ties preferable, but weapons are live.
• X-Force: A SEAL team sent to wipe out a terrorist training camp in the desert in or near an active warzone. A drone strike on foreign territory to take out a political enemy.

I understand that SA isn't XF, but I do think it's wrong to put it on the same level as "regular" superhero teams. It is "black ops" even if it tries to play soft with suspects. I mean, if your mission is to locate, invade, and "take out" an enemy stronghold--well--how is the expectation not that some people are probably going to get ventilated?

@jrock85 said:

@CrabbyLioness: Rogue rejected Magneto over 20 years ago for his atrocities, and hasn't given a crap about him since; so I find it to be very contrived for her to all of sudden be able to disregard all the innocent blood on his hands, or him all of sudden wanting to be redeemed for his crimes. Don't get me wrong. Magneto is definitely a sympathetic villain, but his actions have made him irredeemable IMO.

@jrock85: No one who makes a conscious effort at redemption is irredeemable.

@fodigg said:

@fodigg said:

I worry that I'm not articulating my point well enough. Maybe some metaphorical examples:

• Avengers (written normally), Fantastic Four, X-Men (written normally): No killing. Occasionally, someone is killed accidentally in a fight.
• Avengers (written "edgy"), X-Men (written "edgy"), Defenders: A cop being fired upon shoots back and kills the suspect. A cop sees a suspect pull a weapon and shoots first.
• Secret Avengers,Invaders: A police sniper taking out a hostage taker before he can harm the hostages. A SWAT team taking out a terrorist cell in a populated area--flashbangs and wrist-ties preferable, but weapons are live.
• X-Force: A SEAL team sent to wipe out a terrorist training camp in the desert in or near an active warzone. A drone strike on foreign territory to take out a political enemy.

I understand that SA isn't XF, but I do think it's wrong to put it on the same level as "regular" superhero teams. It is "black ops" even if it tries to play soft with suspects. I mean, if your mission is to locate, invade, and "take out" an enemy stronghold--well--how is the expectation not that some people are probably going to get ventilated?

That's a great way of putting things, and now that you have, I kinda get where you're coming from. Hmmm. Have been pondering this and my defence of old Hank seems somewhat weakened! I've perhaps been viewing the Secret Avengers as being way more closer to the Avengers than X-Force than may be the case. Still think there's a chasm of a difference between them and Logan's squad mind you, but I see where you're coming from re: Hanks role and how that doesn't sit well with regards to his view points on Scott/Logan/X-Force.

Could go on at length with this as I still think that Hank has been hurt personally by what's gone down with him, Logan and Scott and that this is coloring his view. He's not just an out and out hypocrite. Unfortunately, my fingers hurt from typing and I got work in the morning. Probably will now stay awake thinking about all this, lol!

I'm done with 616. I'm going to DC.