Endangered Species - Or How to bring the mutants back

#1 Posted by Buckshot (18678 posts) - - Show Bio

There are mutants like Iceman that have bodies that are or can become something that is not flesh and blood. With people like that their powers can't be maintained through their X-Genes since, as living ice or whatever, they no longer have cells or DNA. Some can even be completely destroyed and remake themselves from things in the environment (continuing with Iceman as an example it would be moisture in the air or anywhere) which, since they originate outside the person's body couldn't even have once been DNA containing the person's X-Gene.

Beast is trying to duplicate the missing X-Gene in people hoping to recreate mutants. I think he should figure out how people who can use their powers without normal bodies (and therefore without the X-Gene) can do what they do and then duplicate that instead of just trying to make the gene.

Am I right? Wrong? Agree? Disagree? Your ideas?

#2 Posted by Copy (8336 posts) - - Show Bio

i think your right but about the whole thing of no dna like iceman maybe mutants are evolving

#3 Posted by Sketchtor (1396 posts) - - Show Bio

You've obviously thought about this a lot more than me. I say bring back 90's Beast, not the lion guy he is now.

#4 Posted by Iron Apollo (2199 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"There are mutants like Iceman that have bodies that are or can become something that is not flesh and blood. With people like that their powers can't be maintained through their X-Genes since, as living ice or whatever, they no longer have cells or DNA. Some can even be completely destroyed and remake themselves from things in the environment (continuing with Iceman as an example it would be moisture in the air or anywhere) which, since they originate outside the person's body couldn't even have *once* been DNA containing the person's X-Gene.Beast is trying to duplicate the missing X-Gene in people hoping to recreate mutants. I think he should figure out how people who can use their powers without normal bodies (and therefore without the X-Gene) can do what they do and then duplicate *that* instead of just trying to make the gene.Am I right? Wrong? Agree? Disagree? Your ideas?"

you have a good point, but don't they also say Icemans body when frozen is an organic ice structure, meaning there still is DNA, so it is Ice but its him as well.
Post Edited:2007-09-15 23:36:06

#5 Posted by Rotten gun (2509 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"There are mutants like Iceman that have bodies that are or can become something that is not flesh and blood. With people like that their powers can't be maintained through their X-Genes since, as living ice or whatever, they no longer have cells or DNA. Some can even be completely destroyed and remake themselves from things in the environment (continuing with Iceman as an example it would be moisture in the air or anywhere) which, since they originate outside the person's body couldn't even have *once* been DNA containing the person's X-Gene. Beast is trying to duplicate the missing X-Gene in people hoping to recreate mutants. I think he should figure out how people who can use their powers without normal bodies (and therefore without the X-Gene) can do what they do and then duplicate *that* instead of just trying to make the gene. Am I right? Wrong? Agree? Disagree? Your ideas?"

so wouldn't that make ice man a form of consciousness projecting a physical form rather than an actual physical being?

#6 Posted by Buckshot (18678 posts) - - Show Bio

Iron Apollo says:

"you have a good point, but don't they also say Icemans body when frozen is an organic ice structure, meaning there still is DNA, so it is Ice but its him as well.
Post Edited:2007-09-15 23:36:06"

Good point, but that's why I included this:

"Some can even be completely destroyed and remake themselves from things in the environment (continuing with Iceman as an example it would be moisture in the air or anywhere) which, since they originate outside the person's body couldn't even have *once* been DNA containing the person's X-Gene."

He's remade himself out of normal air that was around him and also out of the liquid in another person's body, so how would his DNA get into the moisture that doesn't come from his body?

And that also goes for people like Emma Frost, Dust, Rockslide, Mercury (I think the only one who's clearly said to be made of something inorganic), psychics that can leave their bodies indefinitely (that might be because of their psychic abilities though), and others. I think Emma might be "organic as well" and Mercury might have a normal brain inside her(?), but I'm sure there are others I'm just not thinking of now.

Rotten gun says:

"so wouldn't that make ice man a form of consciousness projecting a physical form rather than an actual physical being?"

Dunno, maybe. Beast should look into that. They (Marvel) haven't said that's what his deal is though.
Post Edited:2007-09-16 00:03:37

#7 Posted by Iron Apollo (2199 posts) - - Show Bio

true, but can't iceman turn himself into organic ice, as well as make ice out of water air vapor, or whatever, meaning when he remakes himself in air vapor, he holds his dna at a molecular level, or when he moves through water,

I don't know about other charaters, but I think bobby has control of both himself as organic ice/h2o, and inorganic when making ice.
Post Edited:2007-09-16 00:15:07

#8 Posted by Buckshot (18678 posts) - - Show Bio

Iron Apollo says:

"true, but can't iceman turn himself into organic ice, as well as make ice out of water air vapor, or whatever, meaning when he remakes himself in air vapor, he holds his dna at a molecular level, or when he moves through water,I don't know about other charaters, but I think bobby has control of both himself as organic ice/h2o, and inorganic when making ice.
Post Edited:2007-09-16 00:15:07"

I haven't seen that said anywhere (that he converts the normal moisture into organic ice) but I guess it's possible. Still though, if that's what Iceman is doing, he's basically creating life. He's taking normal water and turning that into "organic ice" with his DNA in it, and then when he's done fighting as ice, he turns that into a flesh and blood Bobby Drake. Aside from that though, he's not the only one who can abandon his human form.

#9 Posted by Copy (8336 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"Iron Apollo says:
"true, but can't iceman turn himself into organic ice, as well as make ice out of water air vapor, or whatever, meaning when he remakes himself in air vapor, he holds his dna at a molecular level, or when he moves through water, I don't know about other charaters, but I think bobby has control of both himself as organic ice/h2o, and inorganic when making ice.
Post Edited:2007-09-16 00:15:07"
I haven't seen that said anywhere (that he converts the normal moisture into organic ice) but I guess it's possible. Still though, if that's what Iceman is doing, he's basically creating life. He's taking normal water and turning that into "organic ice" with his DNA in it, and then when he's done fighting as ice, he turns that into a flesh and blood Bobby Drake. Aside from that though, he's not the only one who can abandon his human form."

can't Colossus leave his human form like when he turns into metal and if he bleeds its only energy

#10 Posted by Darkchild (41441 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"Iron Apollo says:
"true, but can't iceman turn himself into organic ice, as well as make ice out of water air vapor, or whatever, meaning when he remakes himself in air vapor, he holds his dna at a molecular level, or when he moves through water,I don't know about other charaters, but I think bobby has control of both himself as organic ice/h2o, and inorganic when making ice.
Post Edited:2007-09-16 00:15:07"

I haven't seen that said anywhere (that he converts the normal moisture into organic ice) but I guess it's possible. Still though, if that's what Iceman is doing, he's basically creating life. He's taking normal water and turning that into "organic ice" with his DNA in it, and then when he's done fighting as ice, he turns that into a flesh and blood Bobby Drake. Aside from that though, he's not the only one who can abandon his human form."

this would also back up the belief that he is an omega level mutant who is ever evolving

#11 Posted by Buckshot (18678 posts) - - Show Bio

Darkchild says:

"this would also back up the belief that he is an omega level mutant who is ever evolving"

Buckshot says:

"Aside from that though, he's not the only one who can abandon his human form."
#12 Posted by Batz (2 posts) - - Show Bio

What about Rogue. Wouldn't she change her DNA every time she absorbs someones power. Even more so when she absorbs a power like Colossus'.

#13 Posted by Darkchild (41441 posts) - - Show Bio

Batz says:

"What about Rogue. Wouldn't she change her DNA every time she absorbs someones power. Even more so when she absorbs a power like Colossus'."

no theirs nothing happening to her DNA

#14 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"Iron Apollo says:
"true, but can't iceman turn himself into organic ice, as well as make ice out of water air vapor, or whatever, meaning when he remakes himself in air vapor, he holds his dna at a molecular level, or when he moves through water, I don't know about other charaters, but I think bobby has control of both himself as organic ice/h2o, and inorganic when making ice.
Post Edited:2007-09-16 00:15:07"
I haven't seen that said anywhere (that he converts the normal moisture into organic ice) but I guess it's possible. Still though, if that's what Iceman is doing, he's basically creating life. He's taking normal water and turning that into "organic ice" with his DNA in it, and then when he's done fighting as ice, he turns that into a flesh and blood Bobby Drake. Aside from that though, he's not the only one who can abandon his human form."

I wouldnt call that creating life. If he created other individuals that's one thing, but this is his consciousness or his spirit recreating his body out of the molecules (water molecules) that he can control.

I think any of them that can abandon their human form are able to do this. They subconsciously hold their dna patterns and when resuming their normal forms, by reconstructing them out of existing material, the then build their dna into those forms to end up with a perfect replica of their original bodies.

#15 Posted by Buckshot (18678 posts) - - Show Bio

Forever says:

"I wouldnt call that creating life. If he created other individuals that's one thing, but this is his consciousness or his spirit recreating his body out of the molecules (water molecules) that he can control."

How is it anything less than creating life? He's turning water into a living, breathing human being. Doesn't make it any less impressive just because he's only making himself.

Forever says:

"I think any of them that can abandon their human form are able to do this. They subconsciously hold their dna patterns and when resuming their normal forms, by reconstructing them out of existing material, the then build their dna into those forms to end up with a perfect replica of their original bodies."

Even if that's what they're doing, how are they turning whatever material they're made out of back into a human body?

How are they creating all the amino acids, bases and nucleotides that they need for DNA out of sand, ice, rocks, etc? Take Iceman again. He can start out as random water molecules and become flesh again. How does he turn normal water into DNA, a brain, a heart, etc? And getting back to my original point, how are they even using their powers at all when they have no physical form? The ability to use their powers comes from their genes, so how are they using them when they no longer have genes?

#16 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"How is it anything less than creating life? He's turning water into a living, breathing human being. Doesn't make it any less impressive just because he's only making himself."

When I think of creating life I think of me creating you. Or you creating me. Me recreating myself isnt me actually creating life. Even if I use the building blocks of life, if I am just recreating myself in another location, then I'm not actually creating life. For me that's no more than using a transporter, where you are broken down here and recreated over there.

Buckshot says:

"Even if that's what they're doing, how are they turning whatever material they're made out of back into a human body? How are they creating all the amino acids, bases and nucleotides that they need for DNA out of sand, ice, rocks, etc? Take Iceman again. He can start out as random water molecules and become flesh again. How does he turn normal water into DNA, a brain, a heart, etc? And getting back to my original point, how are they even using their powers at all when they have no physical form? The ability to use their powers comes from their genes, so how are they using them when they no longer have genes?"

Iceman appears to be doing it through a limited molecular control. Instead of having control over all molecules, like the molecule man, Iceman has control over water molecules, even when they are in their crystaline-ice shapes. So he can bend those molecules to his will and possibly turn them into anything. Possibly. But we do know that he can turn them into the organic form that his soul usually inhabits.

On your original point, their powers should be tied to their bodies. There is a genetic mutation that affords them all these powers in the first place so those powers should be tied to their genes and therefore their bodies. I agree with that and have no explanation as to how that would occur. Unless their genetic mutation unlocked a degree of control on a spiritual level, allowing them to tie their powers to their souls as opposed to their bodies.

Of course you know the real answer is that the writers never thought about it. They are writing fiction and wanted to have a higher level of mutant then previously existed. Mutants who are so skilled with their powers that they are practically unkillable. So they just went ahead with that, ignoring coming up with any explanations.

#17 Posted by Chameleone (8710 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes Mercury is inorganic, but can she even be considered a form of life

#18 Posted by Buckshot (18678 posts) - - Show Bio

Forever says:

"When I think of creating life I think of me creating you. Or you creating me. Me recreating myself isnt me actually creating life. Even if I use the building blocks of life, if I am just recreating myself in another location, then I'm not actually creating life. For me that's no more than using a transporter, where you are broken down here and recreated over there."

I see that differently. Transporting the parts that make up me and rebuilding them somewhere else (like when he moved himself through a lake) is lesser than and separate, in my mind, from building a new me out of parts that were never in the original (like when he makes a body out of someone else's liquids).

Forever says:

"Iceman appears to be doing it through a limited molecular control. Instead of having control over all molecules, like the molecule man, Iceman has control over water molecules, even when they are in their crystaline-ice shapes. So he can bend those molecules to his will and possibly turn them into anything. Possibly. But we do know that he can turn them into the organic form that his soul usually inhabits.On your original point, their powers should be tied to their bodies. There is a genetic mutation that affords them all these powers in the first place so those powers should be tied to their genes and therefore their bodies. I agree with that and have no explanation as to how that would occur. Unless their genetic mutation unlocked a degree of control on a spiritual level, allowing them to tie their powers to their souls as opposed to their bodies."

He's turning water into functioning human bodies (which he shouldn't be able to do anyway since his powers come from his body). If he has the power to do that, there's so much more that he could be doing. (Not saying I want to see it, he's already hella powerful, but it's there.) That last line you wrote is something I thought about since it's really the only way I can imagine some of them using their powers without bodies. Don't see much support for it beyond some half thought out ideas about psychics though.

Forever says:

"Of course you know the real answer is that the writers never thought about it. They are writing fiction and wanted to have a higher level of mutant then previously existed. Mutants who are so skilled with their powers that they are practically unkillable. So they just went ahead with that, ignoring coming up with any explanations."

Yeah, I know, but what I'm saying is I think they could take something they've never really thought about and use it to solve their current problem (assuming they don't already have a solution) or at the very least, it could be an idea that's fleshed out a little while Beast is going around trying to figure out what makes a mutant so he can bring them back.

#19 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"I see that differently. Transporting the parts that make up me and rebuilding them somewhere else (like when he moved himself through a lake) is lesser than and separate, in my mind, from building a new me out of parts that were never in the original (like when he makes a body out of someone else's liquids)."

It is somewhat more than a transporter though I still see it as falling short of creating life. But that's really neither here nor there.

Buckshot says:

"He's turning water into functioning human bodies (which he shouldn't be able to do anyway since his powers come from his body). If he has the power to do that, there's so much more that he could be doing. (Not saying I want to see it, he's already hella powerful, but it's there.) That last line you wrote is something I thought about since it's really the only way I can imagine some of them using their powers without bodies. Don't see much support for it beyond some half thought out ideas about psychics though."

I would hate to see him any more powerful than he is. I'm glad they increased his powers though. He was a bit of a lightweight before. The answer would have to lie somewhere along the lines of them carrying their powers with their spirits (consciousness). Like you, I cant think of anything else.

Buckshot says:

"Yeah, I know, but what I'm saying is I think they could take something they've never really thought about and use it to solve their current problem (assuming they don't already have a solution) or at the very least, it could be an idea that's fleshed out a little while Beast is going around trying to figure out what makes a mutant so he can bring them back."

That would be very interesting if they already had a solution and slowly unveiled it. But I think that would lead to even more complications. If Beast were to discover that secret, and it lead to him being able to restore the powers of the mutants who had lost theirs, then you would think that he would eventually figure out how to turn normal mutants into omega class mutants. That would be something I would only want to see in an alternate timeline story.

#20 Posted by Buckshot (18678 posts) - - Show Bio

Forever says:

"Buckshot says:
"Forever says:
"Unless their genetic mutation unlocked a degree of control on a spiritual level, allowing them to tie their powers to their souls as opposed to their bodies."

That is something I thought about since it's really the only way I can imagine some of them using their powers without bodies. Don't see much support for it beyond some half thought out ideas about psychics though."

The answer would have to lie somewhere along the lines of them carrying their powers with their spirits (consciousness). Like you, I cant think of anything else."

Read New X-Men 42.

#21 Posted by Buckshot (18678 posts) - - Show Bio

Not only is it a good issue (I always like New X-Men) but it includes this:

#22 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio

Buckshot says:

"Not only is it a good issue (I always like New X-Men) but it includes this:
"

lol. I'm going to check it out and get back to you. It sounds very interesting.

#23 Posted by Chameleone (8710 posts) - - Show Bio

i love New X-Men, just i hate the new artist in the form of Skottie Young. I like the animation from Childhoods end arc to mercury falling arc.

#24 Posted by ClawRavenscroft (98 posts) - - Show Bio

Easy how to bring them back, make more children. ^^

I like it that there are not so much anymore. They became just way to much and know it can be intersting again.

#25 Posted by Darkchild (41441 posts) - - Show Bio

ClawRavenscroft says:

"Easy how to bring them back, make more children. ^^I like it that there are not so much anymore. They became just way to much and know it can be intersting again."

funny comment yes but sound no. The X gene was wiped out entirly for now. but soon a child will be born so i dont know how its gonna work

#26 Posted by ClawRavenscroft (98 posts) - - Show Bio

Darkchild says:

"ClawRavenscroft says:
"Easy how to bring them back, make more children. ^^I like it that there are not so much anymore. They became just way to much and know it can be intersting again."

funny comment yes but sound no. The X gene was wiped out entirly for now. but soon a child will be born so i dont know how its gonna work"

I'm sure a child of two mutant will already become a mutant, so they could produce more that way.

#27 Posted by Darkchild (41441 posts) - - Show Bio

ClawRavenscroft says:

"Darkchild says:
"ClawRavenscroft says:
"Easy how to bring them back, make more children. ^^I like it that there are not so much anymore. They became just way to much and know it can be intersting again."

funny comment yes but sound no. The X gene was wiped out entirly for now. but soon a child will be born so i dont know how its gonna work"

I'm sure a child of two mutant will already become a mutant, so they could produce more that way."

nope none. i mean in the coming Arc MEssiah yes. But now no

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