i feel like phoenix 5 tries their best (well, except namor maybe and even namor, as has been said in comics, just being namor, he is just way more powerful) avengers keep popping up and provoke them and when they are pissed off it's because they are possessed by phoenix...

even when there are only emma and scott left, scott seemed pretty sane to me. so i can't imagine how he could go crazy and destroy the world if p5 were to stay five or at least four people.

i feel like story tries too hard to make me believe p5 is really evil without enough proof. i mean colossus asked kitty to a date... it is just kitty keep pushing, keep pushing, that he might lose it, that he doesnt wanna admit but he changed and a man can take only so much nagging!

i mean dude phoenix + cyttorak possessed and ask girls to date still! i call that perfectly normal. sure, he is ultra powerful and the date happening in the seafloor while the sea splitted in two and kept that way by colossus' godly power. he is just trying to impress the girl though.

also have to say avx added wolverine to my long list of hated characters. like emma said, freaking fixed-minded cave man...

I somewhat agree with you ad long as you stay in the limited series. I the AvX Avengers Cap made a really good case for the Pheonix 5 to be depowored. In the AvX it only hinted @ how the Pheonix 5 were becoming corrupted & that was why the Pheinix 5 needed to be stopped. Cap & Wolverine knew the Pheinix force was going to corrupt The 5 but the series did a poor job of carrying the point across.

Both sides of the issue have merit: The Phoenix IS highly dangerous, and to some extent, humanity SHOULD figure out it's problems on it's own, not just have them all fixed by all powerful entities. The Avengers, in that regard, were correct.

On the other side: The five also have merit. They know the Phoenix better than anyone, so if they say that it'll bring back the mutants, it should at least be considered. And they DO genuinely try to help the world on a scale the Avengers never did as soon as they have the power.

Hell, even Reed Richards admitted that the Phoenix Five would be fine if the Avengers just left them alone.

Where the event failed, and it DID fail, oh so badly, was in the portrayal: Like you said, we were never given reason to hate or even dislike the Phoenix Five. Their actions seem pretty reasonable, (with the exception of Namor trashing Wakanda and Colossus giving whales legs) even benevolent. And on the other side of the spectrum, we're never given the impression the Avengers know what the f*** they're doing. They always seem to be playing it by ear and getting their a**es kicked because of it. They don't seem to have a plan so much as a series of suicide missions for no gain.

And the aftermath of it all is even MORE stupid, with Cyclops killing Xavier in a moment of insane anger caused by the Phoenix Force. But him killing Xavier isn't the stupid bit: It's how everyone BLAMES him for it. Jean WIPED OUT A STAR SYSTEM. SHE ATE STARS. LIKE SKITTLES. Yet everyone thinks of HER as a saint. Scarlet Witch, same story, she kills TWO Avengers, everyone loses their minds. But Cyclops kills one person, a man like a father to him, a man nobody in their right minds would believe him capable of murdering in HIS right mind, and he's an awful person, who needs to be hunted down and locked up.

It is ridiculous. And Wolverine's continuing grudge against Scott is even MORE ridiculous. In it's portrayal, writing, and reasoning.

It was boring, imo, I liked the random Rogue is a strange land tie in though

As far as events go, I actually think it is a pretty good one. Maybe that is just because Iron fist got a little bit of a part and that makes me favorable towards it!

Some things I don't know if I can consider problems more so than character evolution. Wolverine for example. He has been a total asshat since schism so it just reinforces this point through every action he takes in the comics. The whole AvX saga made me kind of hate the Avengers, which I assume was not its intended purpose.

Plus - this Avengers world proclamation just means they are all total and utter hypocrites anyway....

indeed! when you make reed richards say something like that and when you go make all the rest of the avengers do complete opposite attacking p5, what the hell are you trying to do as a story teller? do you mean, hey, i know it is stupid (as i make reed say it) but gotta make money write stories and sell psylocke vs daredevil!!! thing vs namor!!! stuff.

i guess.

I give the event some credit because it brought me back into comics since I had been on a hiatus since pretty much the 90's stuff. When i heard AVX was happening, I went back and purchased all the tpb of what I had missed in Xmen and some of the Avengers stuff.

As for the event itself, i wouldn't say it was terrible, but i feel it could have been done better. For one it was not necessary to have so many tie-ins and for the event to span so long. It got bogged down and just felt unduly stretched out. I also think certain things with the event and the lead up to it could/should have been done differently and it would have been more profound. For instance, and I've said this before, the Schism should have occurred after and as a result of this event. Having a fundamental split over what to do with and what happened with the Phoenix and then adding in the different ideals of Cyclops and Wolverine ( I would have changed this to Cyclops vs Storm) this IMO would have made for a more profound and acceptable Schism.

I thought the inclusion of Hope was ok at best. When I heard about the event I immediately thought about Jean Grey. I thought Hope was not well enough established for this compared to Jean. While I want a big story with Hope I didnt think this was it. I hated the K'un-Lun part of the story.

This event was crap. Everyone was written OOC just justify this piece of crap event. All ask is that Avengers and X-men stay separate, but nope we have to have a pointless Versus event to sell to those Marvel vs Capcom fans. If the event taught me anything its that Avengers should stay clear of mutant problems and X-men away from all Marvel Universe problems. That way X-fans won't lose their characters to pointless deaths even if its deserving (cough, Rogue). That and both teams should remain hateful to each other like real between activist groups and police you don't see them working side by side, why? Because they are to different with varied mind sets and ethics and thats how it should remain between the Avengers and X-men cold, distant and hateful.

First I liked to go on record saying AVX sucked, with the exception of getting to watch the Avengers getting manhandled all over Earth. Next I'd like to address this...

@jonsmith: And the aftermath of it all is even MORE stupid, with Cyclops killing Xavier in a moment of insane anger caused by the Phoenix Force. But him killing Xavier isn't the stupid bit: It's how everyone BLAMES him for it. Jean WIPED OUT A STAR SYSTEM. SHE ATE STARS. LIKE SKITTLES. Yet everyone thinks of HER as a saint. Scarlet Witch, same story, she kills TWO Avengers, everyone loses their minds. But Cyclops kills one person, a man like a father to him, a man nobody in their right minds would believe him capable of murdering in HIS right mind, and he's an awful person, who needs to be hunted down and locked up.

I have seen comments like this all over the internet, and I still don't understand. The Phoenix was retconned, so only readers know about the original story, but we should all know the retconned facts of the Phoenix saga. D'bari was not destroyed and that was the end of it. People seem to forget that "Jean" was brought to justice for Dark Phoenix on an intergalactic scale. Alien races were pissed and the Shi'ar came to Earth to kill her. Through cunning she was granted a trial which ended in her death, only to find out it was not the mutant Jean Grey that was responsible for any of what happened anyway, it was the Phoenix Force in a Jean Grey meatsuit. Her soul then had to experience the death and thoughts of all the D'Bari firsthand in Deaths realm and she was made to build them an afterlife. The only thing Jean was guilty of was giving the Phoenix a chance to duplicate her body and taking a piece of her soul. It was that piece that ended the threat of Dark Phoenix. She was then forced to take the memories. Even still the last survivor of D'Bari came after her, the Shi'ar killed her entire family and apparently past Jean has to go on trial in spite of the trial that was already held for the real Dark Phoenix. Scotts crime was not killing Xavier, it was taking the world hostage and basically tearing it apart to make a new one by the end of AVX, or did you forget all of that?

Jean Grey can't be held accountable for what the Phoenix did using her face, because it was not the real Jean Grey. Scott on the other hand was in his own body using the power of the Phoenix to do what he wanted with it. The Phoenix didn't come to Earth to make a utopia, it came to restart the Xgene, anything outside of restarting the gene were only made possible by the desires of the Phoenix 5 under the direction of Scott. Dark Phoenix as Jean Grey died a heroes death, due to a piece of Jean Grey gaining control, there are no similarities between what happened to the "Jean Grey" Dark Phoenix and the Scott Dark Phoenix.

As for Wanda she did way more than kill two Avengers. She wiped out the mutant gene, and halted evolution against the cosmic order, that is why the Phoenix even got involved, did you read the story involving Unit? This was not the first time somebody used a spell like hers to stop evolution, ending with the Phoenix coming to break said spell. Her doing that killed many mutants, not to mention the untold amount of realities that were destroyed by the Chaoswave, which was created by her tampering with the fabric of reality, because she couldn't deal with the fact that outside of demonic magic there was no real way for her to have children with a robot, then they have the nerve to paint her as one of the main heroes in the AVX. It only happened because of her, like Hope told her.

You seem to be downplaying what Scott and Wanda really did in order to make Jean seem more "evil". Scott and Wanda put billions of lives at risk, including their own friends and family on their home planet. When faced with the mere potential of harming her loved ones and her home world, Jean took the Phoenix out.

@lordofallhumans: I wouldn't compare Scott and Wanda though. I think Scott under the control of the Phoenix gave into rage. Rage at the Avengers trying to stop them as they were making the world "better" and rage at Xavier seemingly siding with the Avengers. In that moment he lost it.

@hawk2916: Outside of both of them being responsible for their actions, I'm not comparing them. The way I read AVX Scott gave into frustration, from always trying to do the right thing. Scott had a vision and good intentions he was looking at a bigger picture. Everybody else thought they were the big picture guys trying to save the world while ignoring all the good the Phoenix had done in its history. The instead focused on one instance of the Dark Phoenix and jumped to conclusions. Phoenix has saved them far more than it has been a threat, and whenever it became a threat it was due to outside forces trying to control it it like the Hellfire club and the Avengers. Everybody conveniently forgot about the M'Kraan crystal, Inferno, the majority of Rachel's life in 616, Endsong and Warsong. In all of those instances the Phoenix saved lives, the world, the universe and beyond. Wanda just gave in to her own selfish desires, she wanted her fake kids and all of creation paid the price.

I can agree with that. Which is why I dont get alot of the Cyclops hate. His actions were entirely understandable.

Actually, if we think about it, everyone got what they wanted. Avengers fans got their ultimate authority more-heroes-than-youll-ever-be Avengers, who in the end of the day were right even when they weren't.

Not all of the X-fans were pleased with Cyclops and his direction, but those who did got even more kick-ass Summers with whole the world against him he did what he believed was right and finally achieved his goal, again remaining oppressed and misunderstood, again against the world.

And for those who didn't like post-HoM X-direction, they've got the school back with the "good" mutants and the most popular ultimate authority Wolverine as head of it! Who was called a traitor, but who cares? He's Wolverine, he's always right, everyone will love him in the end :)

The more I think about this sh*tty story, the more disgusted I am becoming.

One thing I learned Bendis clarly was more of X-fan on this event that's why it was written so one sided. But the good thing that came from this event is now Bendis is writing for the X-titles. Avengers fan no longer have to put up with his garbage and the X-fans get Bendis everybody wins.

@tigerkaya: Thats not a good thing for X-fans bro.You cant possibly be a fan of the Xmen if you are saying something like that. LOL go back to Avengers boards

@hawk2916: I thought you X-fans loved what Bendis is bringing. Hell I thought most of you would be happy to to seeY Chromosome Wolverine get it on with young Cyclops. Besides now you X-fans get to suffer just as Avengers fans did with him. It will be a complete full circle.

@tigerkaya: Nah. who told you that lie. I didnt like Bendis in Avengers and I dont like him on xmen. You gotta be joking about x23 and young cyclops lol. First of all the whole idea of the O5 is stupid and ridiculous... so we dont have to go any further into any discussion about the characters

@hawk2916: Fair enough, just as long as the X-men stop stealing villains and terrorist organizations from other teams and heroes. The X-men are far better off fighting Purifiers and knock off versions of Weapon X.

@tigerkaya: Yeah, but it seems to me that more Xmen get stolen to be in the Avengers than anything else. I love both but I prefer to keep them separate. The only presence the Xmen should have in Avengers is in the New Avengers/Illuminati, and then it should be either Magneto, Cyclops or Storm, maybe even Havok but not Beast

This exactly. All i would add is that the avengers blamed scott because he wanted to try to train hope to control the entity but then the avengers ended up doing the same thing. Cyclops knew the phoenix would bring mutants back and it did even iron man said he knew it would work to cyclops towards the end

IMO the Avengers have no merit at all. They should have left it alone. They have 0 knowledge or experience with the Phoenix. The Phoenix is only dangerous when people try to keep it from doing what it has to do. In Marvel, cosmic forces and entities have roles in the the universe, that are beyond what humanity can fathom. The idea that humanity should figure out it's own problems is laughable when such beings exist. Humanity has a role and that is to produce members powerful enough to replace the cosmic forces for the next universe ,in Marvel mortal races are nothing more than the science projects of the Celestials. Just by having Thor on the team spits in the face of the "humanity should figure out it's own problems" when it comes to the Avengers, he is not part of humanity. Phoenix should have destroyed the Avengers for their hubris, but they had a movie coming out so they survived and even after being wrong and responsible for all the damage done by the Phoenix possessed they are seen as the good guys in the story. This story was horrible and turned mutants into petty traitors that will turn against their own just so the Avengers can look like the heroes, even though they were harboring a genocidal maniac that caused all this mess with three words, "No More Mutants". Since Marvel likes using the Phoenix so much, my only wish is that they have Jean burn 616 away and start over. Maybe young Jean trapped in the "future" will cause the M'Kraan crystal to destroy the mulitiverse since nobody will be there to seal it.

I liked it less than a cafe americano and more than a needle in the eye.

Remember when the Avengers never came to save Genosha or when the X-men never came to help in Kang Dynasty or Ultron Unlimited, both events had millions dying and both teams were doing their story. Good times and the moral of it all Avengers never interfered in mutant problems and X-men never interfered in Marvel related problems. If a millions of mutants die thats an X-men problem if millions of humans die its an Avengers problem. That way less team ups between the two and less Versus stories.

The Xmen never interfered in Marvel related problems? What does that even mean? The Xmen are part of Marvel everything they have been involved in is Marvel related. Them being mutants makes people turn a blind eye to the countless times they have saved Earth and the universe as a whole. Millions of mutants dying may not concern the Avengers, but millions of humans dying concerns the Xmen. The majority of them are directly related to humans, and millions of humans dying means millions of potential mutants will not be born. The Xmen only stop concerning themselves with humans because an Avenger made sure no more mutants could be born, one of the dumbest stories ever IMO. Wanda has, for the most part, not associated with her own race for decades, decides they are the problem, gains godlike power and wipes them out, and nobody cared. The government responds by forcing all remaining mutants into a concentration camp, making them targets to the mutant hating world. The Phoenix comes and gives a few mutants godlike power, and they for the most part help the world, but they are criminals because they weren't Avengers mutants.

@lordofallhumans said:

When I say Marvel related problem I mean crime, magic invasion from alternate dimension and space. The X-men only need to concern themselves with mutant related problems as it should be. Besides X-men should be used to getting the short of the stick of misery its what their best at. I don't consider Disassembled and House of M good writing because I found it horribly written with everyone written OOC. Besides Wanda was forgiven when that weird energy turned her crazy its no different than Jean blowing up an entire galaxy and blaming on the Space chicken so pull that double standard crap you X-fan. I was content with both team neither interfering in the others business but nope we just had to have the two play out a pointless versus fight. Hell I I was even content when Avengers not give two craps about 2 million mutants dying on a daily basis. Besides you X-fans are no different you probably rooted for Namor as he killed million in Wakanda and the X-men playing judge dread killing every human that accidentally killed a mutant.

No, even the fights were disappointing.

The interesting thing about this event is the fan response. I write for a boxing new site and often cover fights, press conferences etc. One thing we say in the boxing industry... is that the most memorable and history making fights have several elements: 1. Strong fan-bases on either side 2. Good action 3. Some sort of controversy 4. The result changes the landscape or status quo While many of us may dislike the event, I think going by that criteria, Marvel hit the jackpot. And while it definitely could have been done better it certainly had a more profound effect on the Marvel U than many other things. In my opinion that is exactly what an event should do... affect everything, which is largely why I feel events should be few and far between. In all honesty I still think this event should have been the 50th anniversary thing and that the Schism should have veen a part of it or come as a result of it. I also think the story could have been done in a way that pitted the Avengers and Xmen against each other in a way that just showcased a difference in ideals in a certain situation as opposed to it being about who's right or who's wrong

Even the Avengers don't deal with crime on all levels. The Xmen have dealt with magic and extradimensional invasions, such as Inferno, and Black Sun. I don't agree with the idea that the Xmen should be considered separate from their own world because they are mutants. I'm not talking about their position from the viewpoint of a Marvel denizen, I'm talking about how readers seem to think they live or should live in a different universe. What Wanda did is nothing like what Dark Phoenix did. First off Jean did nothing and still is being blamed and hunted for crimes she didn't commit, so before you go using X-fan like an insult get your facts straight. Dark Phoenix didn't kill her own people, but Wanda did, there is no comparison. As an "X-fan", I don't like Namor and felt his presence among mutants was contrived as he has more ties to the FF and Avengers, so I was not rooting for him and was glad he was taken out of the story early, had he not been so arrogant he could have just wiped the Avengers and Wakanda off the face of the Earth in one shot. The only mutant that was harming humans for crimes against mutants was Emma Frost, and had more to do with her being a villain at her core regardless of how much good she has done in the last few years. The Avengers should have stayed dead after Onslaught, that way none of their fanwanked crossovers would exist. The Phoenix in AVX was not a threat until the Avengers decided they knew what was best for a race they have largely ignored.

She killed an ENTIRE galaxy of innocents she lost control of her new found powers and has the blood of millions no different than Wanda. So don't give me that bull she killed she is innocent of nothing. Bull crap, Onslaught was a mutant problem and the X-men should have been the ones to sacrifice themselves but gee I guess all the heroes should sacrifice themselves to make the X-men lives even more miserably than usual. I now look forward to more of your favorite X-men dying. If you thought seeing Rogue died pissed you off well I look forward to seeing more of your favorites die horrific deaths. By the way my favorite part in Decimation was seeing Chamber on life support after losing his powers his entire chest exposed and virtually immobile. In fact I loved seeing all the mutants in pain if just to see you X-fans more pissed off. Its like I said X-men mythos should go heroes reborn and live away from Marvel U.

Like I said get your facts straight. Dark Phoenix destroyed that star system, the mutant Jean Grey was not Dark Phoenix. There was nothing new about her powers, she had been impersonating Jean for quite some time, what she lost control over was herself not her powers. The mutants couldn't sacrifice themselves because the presence of mutants running into his final form would have made him unstoppable. Non-mutants were needed to give him a physical form so that the Xmen could finally take him out, also showing that it only takes a handful of Xmen to destroy every Hero on Earth. What are talking about? I don't give a crap about Rogue dying she has been crappy for years now ever since she lost her Ms. Marvel powers IMO and never gave a crap about Chamber. Are you just some child trying to make this an X-fan vs Avengers fan issue. Do you think your nigh idiotic comments are getting to me? I assure they are not, all you have proved is that your knowledge of the Xmen is limited and that you seem to think liking the Xmen is some kind of insult.

@lordofallhumans: you mean that retcon every marvel writer and editor are ignoring and just going by Jean had omnipotent power lost and still killed trillions. Nope she is still in the same boat as Wanda killed millions and both are trying redeem themselves. As to Onslaught well it was a crappy event conceived by X-writers but I truly believe the X-men should have been the ones to die. Besides you brought up this Avengers fans vs X-fans when you wanted all the super humans killed by Onslaught so don't play that game of innocence. Besides get used to more mutants dying come in two years and the bodies of mutants will probably fill a crater.

@tigerkaya: Bro why do you hate the xmen? And why even be on an x-board? I mean you actually sound like an ex x-fan, so what pissed you off.

Lol, I think you're much more angry considering that our X-hero Rogue killed off your favorite genocidal self-hating mutie, even with the cost of her life, but you know, that's how heroes should always act. Of course it didn't stop her from doing another atrocity.

I think the team that thought AvX up probably thought it was a really good idea and it probably did look like one before they starting actually writing the comics because it deffinately went down hill. X-men are the best part of the marvel universe in my opinion and I loved seeing Cable own a whole Avengers team by himself in Xsanction.

@adamtrmm: Yes it is sad but difference is Rogue is still dead and had she stayed on Wood's X-men title none of that would have happen. Heck it might have furthered Uncanny Avengers a Cancellation quickly with so many X-fans flocking towards X-men.

@hawk2916: Simple I got of and tired of the X-writers throwing the Avengers under a bus just to show off how much of the underdog and rebellious the X-men were. They mention how much oh Genosha why weren't you there yet no mention of Kang Dynasty. It just pissed me how much X-writers love riding the X-men are are miserable and should always be right. But most of all I hate the X-men for acting as if they should have the most attention when they themselves have been throughout recent years isolated themselves from the entire Marvel U. To me they don't get a say when they have been stuck in their cycle of prejudice focus stories in the X-mytho's. So from there I left and never turned back. As to whether I was an X-Fan I was from the cartoon, Messiah Complex, and Yost X-Force.

Jaded indoctrination only ever produces a skewed perception. Any time the Avengers' apparent negligence towards mutant matters were a topic of discussion, there was a valid and thick-narrative conducive reason behind it. Usually for resonant pathos between the readers and the characters involved. There was no constant throwing under the bus as you might have seen in your world except for justified stances against the Avengers conveniently popping in when they thought best.

Being as objective as possible, they very much did deserve all the name-dropping they could have received. Because really and truly, Earth's Mightiest Heroes weren't exactly doing their job when people of the Earth needed them most.

@ageofhurricane: well Cyclops has made it clear mutant problems are an X-men problem and the Avengers are just respected his demands so if a bus load of mutant students die on Cyclops watch so be it. The fact you can't accept is not surprising.

The story has not been officially re-retconned so as it stands it was not the real Jean Grey that destroyed that star system. Even if it had been she was already redeemed because she died at the end of that story and saved the universe that Dark Phoenix would have eventually destroyed. Before her return she was made to experience the deaths caused by Dark Phoenix and made to build afterlives for the dead aliens. Upon returning to Marvel, she was attacked by the last son of D'bair and her entire family was killed later. She has paid for her crimes on multiple fronts.

You started the X-fan comments before I even made my first comment in this thread, and several time before I mentioned Onslaught. Then you follow up with the comment about me "playing the innocence game" by making more comments that show you have only come here to troll "X-fans" by telling us to get ready for more mutant deaths. You stop playing that game, I was never playing only stating my opinion about their fates after Onslaught. When faced with the suggestion of sending a superhero team to another universe, Marvel decided to do that to the Avengers after Onslaught instead of the Xmen, because they were more popular at the time, and that is why the Xmen didn't die.

@lordofallhumans: hmmm nope she still in the same boat as Wanda killed millions and went mad and both trying redeem themselves. Yes I'm aware of Onslaught debacle reasons but I still find it was the X-men's mess they should have been the ones to sacrifice themselves. Given how many fans would to have the chance to see Lee draw the team again rebooted and all.

@tigerkaya: No, Jean was redeemed on a personal level, an intergalactic level and a cosmic level on panel. Wanda was not, their boats are two different cruise lines.

I moght be in the minority when I say I loved AvX I just felt they dropped the ball by not calling it Avengers/X-Men War!...

I feels what you are saying, the P5 were just trying to make the world a better place and what they were doing in fact did they created Utopias where there was once barren land but they forced it on the world which is somewhat tyrannical.

Hickman and Fraction wrote the better issues

@lordofallhumans: and I say otherwise but of course an X-Fan like you are considered hypocrites so your response is unsurprising.