Yes, it's one of those threads again and please DO NOT make this into an a Emma Frost versus Jean Grey thread... I think there may be 5 on the battle forums alone...

I believe that Jean Grey may be viewed as boring and uninteresting by some but I believe her character was necessary in Scott's life...

Jean Grey: Cyclops initially started out as the leader of the X-Men, but was shy, boring, quiet and a "Boy Scout"... Jean was attractive and popular... Unlikely pair but she had something called the "Phoenix" inside of her, which made emotions stronger than before, especially negative ones so when Jean and Scott were together, it was good...

Jean helped Scott go from shy and quiet to the confident leader of the X-Men, a very important foundation in order for Scott to become the general of mutant kind as some may say...

Scott helped Jean control the Phoenix, he reminded her and maybe each other their humanity, something very crucial in order to control the Phoenix, as displayed in AvX...

Emma Frost: The lovely Ms Frost, what can I say about you... Emma was initially the White Queen of the Hellfire Club until she quit, started teaching a couple of kids on her own of which some of them died, survived an army of Sentinels and triggered her diamond mutation... She decided to go full time with the X-Men... While doing so, she decided to help Scott with his marriage issues with Jean, which resulted in a telepathic affair and the rest is history but how did she help him...

Emma helped Scott to become the leader of ALL mutants, X-Men or non X-Men and helped him to see that in a world which is seemingly Black and White, there are some greys... She gave him the confidence, abilities and skills in order to make sure even Magneto step downed to him....

Scott helped Emma by helping her with her insecurities regarding her position as an X-Women... Being a former villain in a gang of superheroes raises a lot of question in someone's mind and when Emma felt she wasn't good enough for the X-Men, Scott reminded her she was and when Scott thought that he wasn't good enough to lead mutants, Emma reminded him that he was..

In conclusion: Both women were needed and essential...

There you go folks my arguments for the purpose of Emma and Jean in Scott's life.

HOWEVER, having said that there were other events in Scott's life which made him the badass he is today... Becoming the host of Apocalypse, House of M, Decimation etc...

BUT, of the purpose of the thread, we are discussing Emma and Jean's influences so can Scott's other life instances not be discussed in detail please...

Discuss Away!!!

@awesomeperson: Dude, this is going to become a Jean vs Emma thing, it always does.

@squares: I know but if the mods or vines start blaming me for starting it... It is clearly written in the description I made that I didn't want it to turn into an Emma vs Jean thing...

Good point.

yup totally lol and time made enough of them, even more than me.

@hopesummersforthefuture: As far as I'm concerned, you guys on the X-men forum passed 'enough' a long time ago and have now crossed into 'excessive'.

whenever she was around...i felt like scott was not even taken into account in x men stories

i cant remember a book with both scott and jean where jean is not the main focus

scotts an after thought when he is with jean

with emma i feel like scott is more of an individual

with jean.......its all about jean

@awesomeperson: is this was real life jean would have picked warren because he was rich and confident even full of himself. Scott would have faded in the background. my sister like jean with logan or warren.

mean but true but when "jean" turned dark phoenix, scott still loved her anyways

@squares: it didn't turn into an "Emma vs Jean" thread. It turned into a "Lets all hate Jean Grey" thread...

Yay...

@awesomeperson: We have a ton of those already, too.

I can agree with this...while with jean Scott was field leader yes, but never an actual leader. He was very much tied to her. While she was around he was all about her... When she "died" the first time he left the team.

Contrast that with his time spent with Emma. He starts gaining more and more of a voice, growing from field leader to full leader of the x-men...then eventually to the de facto leader of the mutant people.

Both women of course had a huge impact on him. But I would argue that jean made Scott weaker. When she died the first time he left the team, and even the latest time she died he was going to quit again had white-crown jean not given him the mental push to "live" and move on with Emma.

Contrast that to his time with Emma. Instead if caving in or remaining static, he instead grew as a leader. She made him stronger. And despite not being together he is remaining dedicated to his cause.

jean grey, jean grey jean grey..........is awesome

Anything from the original X-Factor until around and even after "The Search for Cyclops" has both of them getting about the same amount of development. She only really dwarfed him in New X-Men, though that's mostly because Cyclops was the least realized main character in that book.

Hold back is a very bad way to phrase it.

During her return in the 1st X-Factor book we saw her push Scott and arguably all of the Original X-Men members into taking a stance to protect mutants that even the X-Men may not have agreed with (much like Scott's Uncanny team are today).

During the course of the book we saw Cyclops' leadership and family dynamic change as he adapted to playing mentor to young students, father to baby Cable, and captain to a team that had all grown up and were all searching for there places in life. Including Jean who was trying to establish herself back in Cyke's life.

AFTER they rejoined the X-Men he was delegated to field leader, while Xavier was the overall leader of the team. So he didn't really have much reason to look after each individual member since the role of "Team Dad" was back in Xavier's court.

The only real stories Cyclops AND Jean got major roles in were closing up loop holes like "Cable being raised in the Future" and Cyclops' relationship to Cable. And keep in mind that at this point Cyclops had literally spent most of the late 80's looking for and raising his son before he was forced to give him up to save him. So continuing that plot wasn't as much about Jean as it was about the guy dealing with the most tragic thing that had happened to him that hadn't been retconned away.

I think alot of the times people confuse Jean holing Scott back with them having to share the spotlight with eachother since their were about 16 X-Men rotating just two books for most of that time...leaving very little room for the two to be explored separately when it's easier to lump them in together. Compare that to Cyclops and Emma who had Astonishing X-Men as a title for them, and four other books for all the other X-Men characters to be explored in. It's a symptom of the 90's that there was a lot less character development and more indept over the top stories and Scott and Jean both suffered from it and didn't do much other then play team roles.

Just remember that for a while the book was so crowded that Scott and Jean got kicked into a spinoff. But when they actually had time to develop them, both characters grew from it. With Jean getting entire character arcs to deal with being replaced by the Phoenix, replaced by Maddie, becoming a step mom, and playing den mother to the X-Factor kids (whose name escapes me) as well supporting roles in other characters arcs. While Cyclops was literally getting development all over the place from day one of All New All Different X-Men until Xavier returned to the X-Men in the 90s and he was back to square one.

@koays: the phoenix came between jean and scott. Jean was hold back by scott so she had to die to get away from him and go full phoenix ie here comes tomorrow.

I really don't like that story but that is the way Morrison phrased it.

Really though if you take the Phoenix out of the equation Jean's development was heading more to her running the Xavier Institute and possibly the X-Men (given how Scott was so unimportant during those days) before she died. So really she was doing better then him before she ascended.

thats true but i dont think @oldnightcrawler would agree

@koays: Its funny how things are. Cyclops was in jean's shadow and now people are complaining that emma is in scott's shadow....0.0

@hopesummersforthefuture: I think it's funny that no one noticed the 10 issues this year where Scott didn't do much in his own title accept give orders.

All of X-Men were in Wolverine's shadow till now.

@koays: do u think CAP should have let cyclops take the red skull to try to get xavier out? The avengers want to put red skull in jail?!?!!?!?!?!?!?

@hopesummersforthefuture: That wasn't going to happen. The Axis effect has already messed with their minds and made them confrontational. Really though they should've let the Avengers take him while they went and got Rachel(who should've been there already considering Ahab was the first guy they fought). The Avengers are closely affiliated with the Government so technically they're like the police while the X-Men are a private detective agency in this moment.

mmmm.. Morison was the only one to make me think Jean had the chops to take over the school.

but then he kind of screwed the pooch in that regard.

To be fair Morrison made Jean more interesting than she'd been since the 70's, maybe Beast and Emma too.. but used every other character as a parody,, an in-cannon parody that made sense, which the unread still hate him for, but he gets props for returning Cyclops to relevance, and making dull characters cool again.

In my mind, he probably could have saved Phoenix, but chose not to; regardless of what he did with the characters after, what he did in that story has been undone and debased for the younger part of a generation. sss'just weird to me..

ya

Emma beats Jean as she has more control over powers and can use the mind thing to get Armani jeans (colour grey) mixed up and Jean then kills herself

Of course not!

Jean can't hold Scott back because Bendis was cleary: Cyclops will redeem himself, but he will do so in a way totally unimaginable.

Having said that, Jean is Phoenix and she don't stopped Scott to kill Xavier. She help him to release the Phoenix Force only when he was about to lose control. If she was a real person, it doesn't seems to me a behaviour that a woman would have if her man act in a way that she disapprove.

What I mean is if Jean is the White Phoenix of the Crown, in other world she is one with Phoenix, the autors of Avengers versus X-Men didn't have portrait her like she was annoyed by the Scott behaviour. We italians usually say: deafening silence when a person decides to not intervene in a discussion, although that person would have the authority to intervene and his non-intervention favors one of the parties.

Well during Avengere versus X-Men the silence of Jean about Scott was a deafening silence.

No but then again emma is in scott's shadow so payback's a B%^&h

@ec2277: Nicely said...

I'm sure Scott would back up his #%&% for Jean. I think in some occation she did hold Scott back like when he's over reacting or something. Can't really remember, but yea.

Omg Scott fans, stop living through that character.

So after getting banned from CBR, you're bringing your trademark Cyclops and Marvel hate to Comicvine now ?

jean didnt hold scott back.

It is not jean's fault that the writers and many of the readers find her more interesting. 1st she is POWERFUL. 2 she has the phoenix. scott's powers are redundant when he is with jean. let's admit that it was a lame excuse that the writers made the phoenix feed on scott's optic blast when clearly it can feed on anything, star, any creature's life force etc. Jean didn't hold scott back, he just can't outshine jean.

writers had to kill jean so that scott can have his 15 minutes of fame. He did have his time on schism to avx.

What happened when the o5 came to the present? jean outshone scott again. She became the leader of the o5 and the all new x-men series became all about jean. Scott was even sent off to space so that he could have his space to shine in outer space. hehe. just my opinion. I love scott too

maybe jean and scott were supposed to stop the phoenix by letting cyclops feed the phoenix is optic blast??????

and you avengers85 bring your trolling others, lol?

Keeping it real.

LOL

No, Jean didn't hold him back at all. She helped Scott come out of his shell, true, but his impact in her life wasn't just helping her control the Phoenix. Jean Grey isn't and has never been all about the Phoenix. I think it can be summed up neatly to say that they made each other happy, because they appreciated and respected each other until the end.

True

what do you think of this thread? @malachi_munroe

Nope

Scott makes it all about Jean. So scott holds back Jean

Scott said everytime she looked at jean, she still sees the same teenage jean he fell in love with. He couldn't accept the drastic changes and growth that has been happening to jean. Having accepted her PHOENIX DESTINY and stepping up to lead the x-men because charles saw lthe confidence and the makings of a new leader in the new JEAN.

Honestly, the marriage crumbled when scott wasn't able to accept the changes in jean. The changes that made her better than him. He lost his PRIDE.

Oh my God, he is a character of a comic book, not a real person!

It sufficient change the writer and it changes the character.

With Morrison Cyclops was an idiot and no one understood why he was the leader of the X-Men. Whit Fraction he was a true leader, able to carry on their shoulders the fate of an entire race. With Bendis he is a man torn between his sense of guilt and the need to be strong to protect his people.

Also Jean change with the author: before Morrison was a woman who lived for his husband, with Morrison was a woman almost totally disinterested his husband, because his only purpose was being the embodiment of the Phoenix. After Morrison She was useless because the writers transformed Emma Frost in another Jean.

Then we have had stories like Phoenix Endsong, in which the Jean's feeling about Scott are unchanged, but she is resigned to the fact that Scott had chose Emma.

Then who is Jean, who is Scott, what is their reality?

Obviously I prefer the representation of Scott made by Fraction and the representation of Jean made in Phoenix Endsong (although I don't like it), because I think the characterization made by Morrison is a distortion both of Scott and of Jean. A characterization that repudiates 30 years of previous stories, without adding new elements on which to build a new evolution of characters. Also I think Morrison had indeed impoverished the X-Men killing Jean and putting Emma in her place.

But these are only my opinion, totally off-topic.

I don't think so. They helped eachother to where they are.

@ec2277: Everything you said, seriously. I hate when people 'hate' a character that is written by so many people that give them varying, sometimes embellished characteristics.

Jean never held Scott back or vise versa: I taking a lot of the stupidity out of it (that asinine love triangle for starters) they were both just good people trying to cope with crazy changes and a marriage.

I hate how the Phoenix has become Jeans defining characteristic to some people, it completely overshadows so many of her better traits.

@hopesummersforthefuture said:

what do you think of this thread? @malachi_munroe

@avenger85 said:

ya

Nope

Scott makes it all about Jean. So scott holds back Jean

lol is that the best you can come up with ?

Guys, your flame is boring.

well said

cool

Jean tried to reach out but didn't exert much effort needed because she got caught up in everything that has been happening to herself and around her.

I am under the perception that Jean kept the douche-bag at bay in Scott, loosing her he basically started to become his dad. (Who I am quick to remind was perfectly fine with leaving his kids in orphanages and foster homes while he went on space adventures)