Could the X-men survive without Wolverine, Cyclops, and Magneto?

#1 Posted by Silver_Raven (351 posts) - - Show Bio

When people question or doubt the possibility of a book about "X-Women", it makes me wonder why the X-men are still such a patriarchy? When Professor X was still their leader and father-figure it was fine, but when he was dismissed, and the died, the X-men have still remained led by white males, on every team and the two books that did have two female leaders (X-men and New Mutants) were canceled!

There are others with the leadership and vision to guide the X-men and they don't need a dick to do so. But the three alpha males i listed have been the centre of the X-books for years and none of them make any more sense at the top with all that has happened and all the marvelous hypocrisy. So if Marvel wanted to really change it all up they would have Wolverine get kicked out of the X-men but remain only an Avenger, kill off Cyclops because he really should be dead by now, and return Magneto to his villainous ways. Then we can have others like the X-women rise up and lead for a change, and it would acceptable to see beta males rise up too and get their chance as well.

So, could the X-books still be as successful with those guys gone? And would the X-world be that affected?

#2 Posted by Joygirl (19927 posts) - - Show Bio

I dunno, let's see. *throws all three into the sun*

#3 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5871 posts) - - Show Bio

@Joygirl said:

I dunno, let's see. *throws all three into the sun*

LOL!!!

#4 Posted by spidermonkey2099 (615 posts) - - Show Bio

I think you'd have some initial backlash, but if the stories were good I think people would get over it. The ultimate universe has pretty much done this with Kitty Pryde leading a group of X-Men after so many other X-Men died in previous arcs, and I think that's still a pretty popular title.

#5 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5871 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with spidermonkey that there will be some backlash from Cyclops, Wolverine and Magneto fans, but if the stories are really good, then the X-Men universe could survive without Wolverine, Cyclops and Magneto. The real challenge is what kind of stories can you tell with the other X-Men characters that would interest the fans. The X-Men universe has many X-Men characters that are just as popular as these three like Storm, Colossus, Kitty Pryde, Iceman, Nightcrawler, Jean Grey, Rogue, Gambit and many others. As long as the stories being told around them are interesting to the fans, then they would be able to carry the X-Men titles for many years.

#6 Posted by dangallant984 (1282 posts) - - Show Bio

@spidermonkey2099: @Rabbitearsblog: agreed.

While I do love all three of these characters, and would hate to see them disappear altogether, I also hate how characters like Storm and Kitty have been mostly sidelined since the late 80's, before which, they were the main characters.

For me, the Storm, Kitty, Rachel, Rogue, Nightcrawller and Colossus era will always be the most classic.

#7 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5871 posts) - - Show Bio

@dangallant984 said:

@spidermonkey2099: @Rabbitearsblog: agreed.

While I do love all three of these characters, and would hate to see them disappear altogether, I also hate how characters like Storm and Kitty have been mostly sidelined since the late 80's, before which, they were the main characters.

For me, the Storm, Kitty, Rachel, Rogue, Nightcrawller and Colossus era will always be the most classic.

I definitely agree with this!! It was during that era that all the X-Men got attention in all the story lines and they weren't heavily focused on Wolverine and Cyclops, like they are now.

#8 Posted by cattlebattle (12767 posts) - - Show Bio

There has been several series without any of those characters in it that preformed just fine....so yes.

#9 Posted by PhoenixoftheTides (3551 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes. They have before, actually.

@cattlebattle said:

There has been several series without any of those characters in it that preformed just fine....so yes.

:nods:

#10 Posted by XsPectre28 (719 posts) - - Show Bio

there are many x-men that are capable & are in a position to take over the leadership role(s) if cyclops or wolverine were removed. magneto is idk because i didnt really read his run as headmaster of the x-men decades ago but even in the the current run i dont feel magneto is or should not be a leader of the x-men. look at some of the multiple realities were others have stepped up & took on leader roles or just different roles all together. it all bases down to the writers & how that writer feels about the character. example storm is the second longest leader of the x-men i still feel that she should have taken wolverine's place as the other side of the schism but hey im not one of the writers thats has a hard on for wolverine

#11 Posted by Skaddix (3114 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes they would survive just fine. Sure Wolverine would hurt because of no multiple solos but no Scott or Magneto hardly going to hurt sales.

#12 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't imagine the franchise without Cyclops.

A X-men team? Sure, but the entirety of the X-men? Not so much,

#13 Posted by RawrImADragon (206 posts) - - Show Bio

It's not really that the X-Women would be horrible leaders, there are many strong female characters within the X-Men and I would love to see Storm or Jubilee lead a team, the only thing is Marvel knows its readership and they know what sells these days. In really any form of media it's more often than not a strong white dude leading the way. Almost all video games have a male protagonist, same with movies, tv shows, etc etc....

This is just the world you live in, like it or not.

#14 Posted by Smart_Dork_Dude (2638 posts) - - Show Bio

Sure

#15 Posted by GonnaRain (752 posts) - - Show Bio

Take Beast away with you too please.

#16 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5871 posts) - - Show Bio

@XsPectre28 said:

there are many x-men that are capable & are in a position to take over the leadership role(s) if cyclops or wolverine were removed. magneto is idk because i didnt really read his run as headmaster of the x-men decades ago but even in the the current run i dont feel magneto is or should not be a leader of the x-men. look at some of the multiple realities were others have stepped up & took on leader roles or just different roles all together. it all bases down to the writers & how that writer feels about the character. example storm is the second longest leader of the x-men i still feel that she should have taken wolverine's place as the other side of the schism but hey im not one of the writers thats has a hard on for wolverine

#17 Posted by Brazen_Intellect (1144 posts) - - Show Bio

At this point they would be better off without them.

As they are written they are far more detrimental to the cause than helpful

#18 Posted by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

@PhoenixoftheTides said:

Yes. They have before, actually.

@cattlebattle said:

There has been several series without any of those characters in it that preformed just fine....so yes.

:nods:

Exactly.

#19 Posted by Silver_Raven (351 posts) - - Show Bio

I know they are others who can lead; Storm, Cable, Psylocke, Havok, Warpath, Cannonball, Dani and Emma have done it before and can now. (If Jean or Kurt were really back i would include them too.)

But it would be nice to also other secondary characters given a chance, like Iceman, Shadowcat, Karma, Polaris, Domino, and Bishop (i hope he get's to be a good guy again).

#20 Posted by knighthood (1693 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, Yes, and Yes

#21 Posted by dangallant984 (1282 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@dangallant984 said:

@spidermonkey2099: @Rabbitearsblog: agreed.

While I do love all three of these characters, and would hate to see them disappear altogether, I also hate how characters like Storm and Kitty have been mostly sidelined since the late 80's, before which, they were the main characters.

For me, the Storm, Kitty, Rachel, Rogue, Nightcrawller and Colossus era will always be the most classic.

I definitely agree with this!! It was during that era that all the X-Men got attention in all the story lines and they weren't heavily focused on Wolverine and Cyclops, like they are now.

Yeah, exactly. And I think characters like Wolverine and Magneto especially, are far more potent not being in the spot light all the time. They just pack more punch, character-wise,in smaller doses, or as wild cards.

#22 Posted by cyberchop979 (451 posts) - - Show Bio

Yup.

#23 Edited by lorex (954 posts) - - Show Bio

I am sure the X-Men could survive without them. It would take some time to establish some characters in new leadership positions and for a new heirarchy to form. Not that it will ever happen because Marvel will never do something that drastic.

#24 Posted by karetaker (1565 posts) - - Show Bio

if the question is could they the answer is yes.they dont need to die they need to change

#25 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5871 posts) - - Show Bio

@dangallant984 said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@dangallant984 said:

@spidermonkey2099: @Rabbitearsblog: agreed.

While I do love all three of these characters, and would hate to see them disappear altogether, I also hate how characters like Storm and Kitty have been mostly sidelined since the late 80's, before which, they were the main characters.

For me, the Storm, Kitty, Rachel, Rogue, Nightcrawller and Colossus era will always be the most classic.

I definitely agree with this!! It was during that era that all the X-Men got attention in all the story lines and they weren't heavily focused on Wolverine and Cyclops, like they are now.

Yeah, exactly. And I think characters like Wolverine and Magneto especially, are far more potent not being in the spot light all the time. They just pack more punch, character-wise,in smaller doses, or as wild cards.

I agree. I guess that's why I loved Joss Whedon's run on "Astonishing X-Men" because Wolverine wasn't used too much, but he was still a great character in that series.

#26 Posted by dangallant984 (1282 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbitearsblog: every character was pitch perfect in that book, each used for their strongest traits, and all in service of the story; it's too bad more writers didn't take his approach.

#27 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5871 posts) - - Show Bio

@dangallant984 said:

@Rabbitearsblog: every character was pitch perfect in that book, each used for their strongest traits, and all in service of the story; it's too bad more writers didn't take his approach.

I agree. I think that many X-Men stories now could be much better if some of the writers didn't keep playing favorites with the characters and actually wrote stories that benefited all the characters. Even though Joss Whedon's favorite character was Kitty Pryde, he never made the other X-Men characters look bad to boost up Kitty's character.

#28 Posted by dangallant984 (1282 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbitearsblog: and having all the main characters arguing all the time without it breaking up the team. Classic.

#29 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5871 posts) - - Show Bio

@dangallant984 said:

@Rabbitearsblog: and having all the main characters arguing all the time without it breaking up the team. Classic.

Yeah, now that was something I really enjoyed about Joss Whedon's run on Astonishing X-Men! You can actually get a more enjoyable dynamic when the team argues with each other, but still stay together rather than having them break up over some arguments.

#30 Posted by dangallant984 (1282 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbitearsblog: yeah, and the arguments help to both define the characters and tell the stories. I'd wager, off the top of my head, that all good X-men comics pivot on these clashes.

#31 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5871 posts) - - Show Bio

@dangallant984 said:

@Rabbitearsblog: yeah, and the arguments help to both define the characters and tell the stories. I'd wager, off the top of my head, that all good X-men comics pivot on these clashes.

I agree. Kitty and Emma may have fought a lot during this series, but to me, it really defined their characters much closely and we can actually see their different viewpoints on how to deal with mutant affairs as a whole. When you don't have much conflict for the characters in the stories, it can be hard to see where the character is coming from and how they feel about this particular situation.

#32 Posted by poisonfleur (3041 posts) - - Show Bio

@knighthood said:

Yes, Yes, and Yes

#33 Posted by Trigen (1 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't really see it being a sexism/racism thing like you're implying in the initial post... I don't think the writers at marvel are sitting there talking about the glorious master race or how to keep women down or any of that crap... Wolverine, Cyclops and Magneto are simply the most popular characters so they're the ones who get picked for most of the important plot points. There is nothing sinister about it... the reason other books with other leads have failed is probably for this very reason... if you make a book about unpopular or less popular characters the stories need to be damn good to get people interested. If you choose a really popular character as your lead you automatically get a decent amount of fans who will read nearly anything about that character hence you get more readers and more money...

#34 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5871 posts) - - Show Bio

@Trigen said:

I don't really see it being a sexism/racism thing like you're implying in the initial post... I don't think the writers at marvel are sitting there talking about the glorious master race or how to keep women down or any of that crap... Wolverine, Cyclops and Magneto are simply the most popular characters so they're the ones who get picked for most of the important plot points. There is nothing sinister about it... the reason other books with other leads have failed is probably for this very reason... if you make a book about unpopular or less popular characters the stories need to be damn good to get people interested. If you choose a really popular character as your lead you automatically get a decent amount of fans who will read nearly anything about that character hence you get more readers and more money...

I definitely agree with this! Wolverine, Cyclops and Magneto are very popular characters in the X-Men universe (might as well include Emma Frost in there also). Many fans will automatically pick up a story that feature these characters and that's what Marvel is doing to earn more profits. Like you mentioned, if there are going to be stories on the other X-Men characters, then the stories would really need to be good in order to get more fans for that character.

#35 Posted by Silver_Raven (351 posts) - - Show Bio

@Trigen: What's been crap is the last decade of X-books, and the lack of diversity and equality in the books and behind them doesn't make it better.

I know Marvel isn't intentionally racist and sexist, but they allow for a lot of subtle and covert messages that can alienate and offend. And with a title like the X-men, which is all about an oppressed minority, i would hope they would make an extra effort to be proactive and thoughtful about how portray other minorities. With all the strides made to be an inclusive, progressive, and multicultural collective, the main characters who get the more visibility, voice and agency are the team are the whitest of the white and as male as male can be. They real life privilege and power of white males get played out in the characters they get to do what ever they want without consequence or dissent, unless it comes from each other and therefore valid.

So do you understand how insulting that can be to a reader that is oppressed by said dominant group. I am so sick and tired of hearing about Magneto, Cyclops and Wolverine whining about their oppression and taking over the mutant movement as if the only ones who understand and are capable to lead. The more the X-men are a white men's fantasy about oppression the more of a bitch i will be and call them out on it.

As long as characters; like Storm, Dani Moonstar, Karma, Sunspot, Forge, Sunfire, Revanche (not the British psychic wearing her Japanese skin), Bishop, and Jubilee are a part of the majority then the less offensive and exclusive the concept of X-men will be. So Marvel has to stop pandering to white males, because it is just going to look like they are being kinda racist and sexist. (Marvel Now! better be listening.)

#36 Posted by Skaddix (3114 posts) - - Show Bio

Good point there nothing funnier then a white male whining about discrimination.

#37 Edited by Celineness (134 posts) - - Show Bio

In-universe, losing Magneto creates a pretty large gap in their arsenal. Losing Cyclops would be a a bit like the Avengers losing Captain America. It *shouldn't* mean much in terms of powers and abilities, but it would because of character and how people like Cyke get the important stuff done in the middle of a battle while the mighty forces of nature type characters cancel each other out around him.

Wolverine is an even more extreme case of Cyclops, in that his absence is a bit like the Justice League minus Batman. His most valuable power is the psychological effect he has on an enemy. It's preposterous that someone with his meagre abilities lasts more than a few seconds against some of the demi-gods the X-Men come up against, and you can prove this by reflecting on how comparatively weak someone else with his powers would be if they just weren't Wolverine (i.e. his personality, experience, attitude, etc). The X-Men could survive without him but would always be wondering after any bad decisions, near-misses and failures whether Wolverine would have gone just one step further or held out just one second longer to turn a bad result into victory. The team loses its "hero" or "drama" power.

Out-universe, no yes and yes. Despite years in the spotlight, Cyclops is still a placeholder character for a lot of readers. He's still painted with the blandness brush from the 90's and comes across as a cross between movie-Cyke and movie-Captain America. He's the straight man for the weird and wonderful others to bounce off of, but his face will never sell comics like Wolverine or Batman do. Magneto is also 100% dispensible, despite him being elevated slightly above the queue waiting outside the rotating door of stock comic book villains.

Again, Wolverine is more than that to Marvel, thanks to him riffing on Clint Eastwood, Jack Nicholson and The Dark Knight Returns' take on Batman since the early 90's. Dropping him from the X-books is an investment that they'd hope would pay off when he returned, but in the short term it would always add up to bad move and need to be a temporary change.

#38 Posted by fullmetalquach (94 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like it would be tough for the writers but it is possible. Those three arent some of the most recognizable and favorite mutants just because they are white males, but they are well known, well loved, and legitimately interesting characters. If they were originally females then maybe this wouldnt be the case because a long time ago comics were read by mostly men or kids, which is similar to today but id say less kids read them and more women than before. The characters might not have made it through the test of time because people back then would rather see male heroes than female heroes. If they were killed off or left the team and then replaced with a female character in the present and if the story was written well then i think it could work, but people will always want to have them get brought back due to their history with them

#39 Posted by dangallant984 (1282 posts) - - Show Bio

this is the X-men book I'm most interested in right now, so for me, this issue is kinda settled.

I know that this team will exist in a world where Wolverine, Cyclops and Magneto all represent key agencies, and I like that they do, but these are more the characters I want to see being the x-men.

#40 Posted by Silver_Raven (351 posts) - - Show Bio

@dangallant984: What, the issue isn't settled. X-men doesn't even come out until April, so the books are still going to be Wolverine and Cyclops centric. And i really do hope that this new book will elevate everyone of those X-women's profile, but i am curious to see where in the X-world this book will be. If it doesn't become a central book to counterbalance the "schism" between the alpha males, then X-men won't have much impact or power. It will just be another satallite book that doesn't affect the main story, like Astonishing or X-Factor. i want those X-women in X-men to be a third option for the X-men. If it isn't then the issue is not going to be settled.

#41 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5871 posts) - - Show Bio

@Silver_Raven said:

@dangallant984: What, the issue isn't settled. X-men doesn't even come out until April, so the books are still going to be Wolverine and Cyclops centric. And i really do hope that this new book will elevate everyone of those X-women's profile, but i am curious to see where in the X-world this book will be. If it doesn't become a central book to counterbalance the "schism" between the alpha males, then X-men won't have much impact or power. It will just be another satallite book that doesn't affect the main story, like Astonishing or X-Factor. i want those X-women in X-men to be a third option for the X-men. If it isn't then the issue is not going to be settled.

I have to agree. I am curious about whether or not the all female X-Team will take place in the universe. If it doesn't and it's kind of shoved to the side like Astonishing X-Men, then it might not have any kind of impact on the universe.

#42 Posted by dangallant984 (1282 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Silver_Raven said:

@dangallant984: What, the issue isn't settled. X-men doesn't even come out until April, so the books are still going to be Wolverine and Cyclops centric. And i really do hope that this new book will elevate everyone of those X-women's profile, but i am curious to see where in the X-world this book will be. If it doesn't become a central book to counterbalance the "schism" between the alpha males, then X-men won't have much impact or power. It will just be another satallite book that doesn't affect the main story, like Astonishing or X-Factor. i want those X-women in X-men to be a third option for the X-men. If it isn't then the issue is not going to be settled.

I have to agree. I am curious about whether or not the all female X-Team will take place in the universe. If it doesn't and it's kind of shoved to the side like Astonishing X-Men, then it might not have any kind of impact on the universe.

you guys are both right, of course. I more meant that it was settled for me.

the only way it will be settled, I guess, is if WE ALL SUPPORT THIS BOOK as much as we would the core titles, then they'll see that it is a core title. Your dollar's your vote, ladies, and there's a sweet new party to vote for.

#43 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5871 posts) - - Show Bio

@dangallant984 said:

@Rabbitearsblog said:

@Silver_Raven said:

@dangallant984: What, the issue isn't settled. X-men doesn't even come out until April, so the books are still going to be Wolverine and Cyclops centric. And i really do hope that this new book will elevate everyone of those X-women's profile, but i am curious to see where in the X-world this book will be. If it doesn't become a central book to counterbalance the "schism" between the alpha males, then X-men won't have much impact or power. It will just be another satallite book that doesn't affect the main story, like Astonishing or X-Factor. i want those X-women in X-men to be a third option for the X-men. If it isn't then the issue is not going to be settled.

I have to agree. I am curious about whether or not the all female X-Team will take place in the universe. If it doesn't and it's kind of shoved to the side like Astonishing X-Men, then it might not have any kind of impact on the universe.

you guys are both right, of course. I more meant that it was settled for me.

the only way it will be settled, I guess, is if WE ALL SUPPORT THIS BOOK as much as we would the core titles, then they'll see that it is a core title. Your dollar's your vote, ladies, and there's a sweet new party to vote for.

Hey! That might work!

#44 Posted by dangallant984 (1282 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rabbitearsblog: if we all do it, it will.

so don't forget to tell your friends!

#45 Posted by Aero_gt (840 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends on which era of X-Men we are talking about. Right now I could see it happening Thanks to what three three caused or contributed to the X-men. Wolverine woukd probably be the least needed, Kitty practically leads the Jean Grey school, Emma can do the leading of the other x-men, and Storm is incharge of the Not X-force portion. These three replace Scott, Erik, And James if the three just stopped existing.

#46 Posted by dangallant984 (1282 posts) - - Show Bio

@Aero_gt said:

Depends on which era of X-Men we are talking about. Right now I could see it happening Thanks to what three three caused or contributed to the X-men. Wolverine woukd probably be the least needed, Kitty practically leads the Jean Grey school, Emma can do the leading of the other x-men, and Storm is incharge of the Not X-force portion. These three replace Scott, Erik, And James if the three just stopped existing.

hadn't thought of it that way, but, yeah, pretty much.

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