Decimation served a few really good purposes for the Marvel Universe. First off, reducing the number of mutants prevented the creation of random new characters when there was a plethora of unused characters that are in comic limbo. Second it provided some great development to characters that were mostly being forgotten e.g. Jubilee and Moonstar. Lastly, if the mutants population didn't contract, more and more mutants would have been born and soon they would larger problem for the Marvel universe.

With mutants coming back, that means eventually the Marvel universe could face the same problems as it did a few years ago: too many mutants. In twenty-thirty years writers may do something similar, even if it is because of a lack of new ideas. It is not like there is a shortage of characters that could do it. There was already a witch hunt against Wiccan because he has the power to do it. Every time two superheroes have kids, the kid has to be overpowered, Franklin Richards is a great example. Not to mention a second Decimation in a couple decades would allow a lot of the older X-Men to be depowered and therefore retire and allow the younger X-Men a chance to finally take over.

Does anyone else foresee a second Decimation or Decimation like event occurring? Maybe a cure that is forced upon a large number of them, or another Legacy Virus. Killing off a lot of Mutants at once is not a new idea but Decimation did it at a grander scale.

You know what I find strange, the mutant race was supposed to be endangered species,  you know before Hope and scarlet Witch save it. However it didn't seem that way, mutants kept popping up from every where.

In reality, decimation probably only occured to give writers a chance to make a handful of characters (Chamber, Jubilee, Moonster) depowered while some where temporarily depowered (Magneto) which really proved useless to the actual story.

Decimation was a horrible idea, all it showed is that Marvel hires lazy writers that lack imagination. Lets wipe out a race because we can't come up with good stories any more. They get rid of mutants but there is still no shortage of non-mutants running around popping up all over the place. They could have easily made mutants excepted with a few bad apples, then that would deal with having to deal with too many mutants. Why not wipe out humans? There are humans born everyday too and there is no need to have them around because we can't think of stories for all of them. They are called extras, they don't need lines or even clearly drawn faces, it was a bad idea. Just because there are mutants born all the time does not mean they all warrant panel time or even a flashy power. They tried to get rid of mutants just to focus on the group of mutants that they wanted to be in the spotlight for these last few years. It flies in the face of the original idea behind creating the Xmen and mutants, a step towards racial harmony, lets forget what the Xmen stand for and wipe mutants out, then make then seem more like a terrorist cell, instead of a race of people just trying to survive. I'm glad Scott was right, I'm glad mutants are back, with such low numbers they hardly had any villians to fight anyway. How many more groups of humans with tech they should have no way of getting without help from a Marvel genius or the Government does it take before we are tired of that cliche?

@time said:

You know what I find strange, the mutant race was supposed to be endangered species, you know before Hope and scarlet Witch save it. However it didn't seem that way, mutants kept popping up from every where.

well, mutants are the major theme of the books, and there was still way less of them than there are people in the world.

it's also worth noting that this was actually the second or third time Marvel tried this, the first being the Mutant Massacre (but, again, none of the major characters got killed, only wounded). The Massacre was meant to do the same thing, but then they introduced Genosha (the first storyline of which was great) and so, theoretically, another whole culture of mutants. Then, later, they destroyed Genosha (again, without killing any actual characters).

So, I will say that, at least with the decimation (though mostly only depowering a bunch of less popular characters), they did actually do something that had real effects on the stories for several years.

But, I think at this point, I'm glad they're going in another direction.

@time: They eventually got passed being endangered and started showing up so often the main problem was making sure the humans didn't start killing them all.

I hope so. I don't like it when there are to many mutants. For me at least they stop feeling like a minority.

@Dernman said:

I hope so. I don't like it when there are to many mutants. For me at least they stop feeling like a minority.

That's kinda the point of being called the next stage in evolution, isn't it?

@Dernman said:

I hope so. I don't like it when there are to many mutants. For me at least they stop feeling like a minority.

That's kinda the point of being called the next stage in evolution, isn't it?

I hated Decimation more than appreciated. Like because the term was and has been traditionally used wrong in modern media and entertainment. Language evolves though so thats a petty gripe. Not so petty is the idea that X-Men stories were supposedly best when readers were presented with a handful of mutant characters that were facing prejudice and intolerance, in a similar context to the O5's situation (as opposed to the years under CC where there was a decent mutant population thriving)

There are many minority groups that face persecution and discrimination even with their minority group numbering in the millions. A few thousand mutants across the world should be okay. It alludes to the idea that for anyone in real life who has been discriminated or abused in real life for things like race, sex, gender, beliefs, sexuality, nationality? Yeah most of you are nameless and anonymous. The X-Men just happen to be a particular group of whom such people have banded together to defend/fight against such superficial prejudices, not just for themselves but all people. Thats why so many X-Men characters are distinct, and they are celebrated for their diversity. When Decimation happened, then the potential for more diversity and originality that comes with the nameless and anonymous mutants was essentially destroyed because which characters were the ones that by the majority kept powers? All the ones that have already been established and that are popular. Which happens to be a lot of American based characters and X-Men characters. For reasons not to do with nationality or team affiliation naturally, but because of real life practical reasons that are the consequence of wanting to reduce mutant population by so much.

Except I think Marvel decision makers realized this because X-Men sales numbers aren't as healthy as they could be. The reasoning that this could be that with the more mutants you have, the more of a subculture you establish as far as a loose group of characters that similarities are that they are different from what is considered "norm" and the more you draw on the fact that a lot of people like the X-Men because they identify with and recognize themselves and others as not the "norm" but still try to do good even if they are nameless and anonymous. Some writer could come along and establish too many mutant characters in which numbers would have to be lowered somehow but I really hope next time it is a literal decimation (like 10 percent reduction) rather than getting rid of everyone that isn't Wolverine, Storm, Cyclops, and Gambit.

Cool thread by the way. ^_^

@Dernman said:

@LordOfAllHumans said:

@Dernman said:

I hope so. I don't like it when there are to many mutants. For me at least they stop feeling like a minority.

That's kinda the point of being called the next stage in evolution, isn't it?

So? That's something that's always suppose to be that comes in the future. You lose most of what the X-Books are about if you ever let it come to that. It's about the journey not the destination. That's not even mentioning the other next steps of evolution that's been shown out there. One even actually being natural and not just created by the Celestials.

What the Xmen books were about is training the next generation of mutants to control their powers and fight evil mutants, you can't do that if there are no mutants. All natural stages of evolution are products of the Celetials experiments, it's their purpose in the universe. They took three groups and directly influenced them, to become Eternals, Deviants or seeding them with the potential to gain superpowers, either by way of mutation with an active X-gene or through other random mutations without one (which is why people like Spiderman and the Hulk didn't die from being exposed to the causes of their powers.), and they did this on many planets. The endgame of evolution on Earth are the omega level mutants, as the propose of evolution in Marvel is to replace the cosmic forces for the next universe. Stopping mutants from being born is what drew the Phoenix to Earth, another agent of evolution, if she didn't restart the X-gene then by their very nature the Celestials are supposed to come and judge the Earth, or the Phoenix could find them genetically obsolete and judge them, or Galactus would be allowed to consume Earth, because those three forces abhor stagnation and part of their jobs is to get rid of things that don't evolve or have run their course to keep balance in the universe. So your saying every few years we need the Phoenix to come to Earth and do this all over again?

I still don't see how having too many mutants becomes a problem for anybody as far as story telling is concerned, especially the way time passes in Marvel, it hardly moves at all, so we will never see a time where mutants become the dominate species, we'll only have instances where people think it's happening, even when there were 16,000,000 they only represented a fraction of the Earths population, there are cities on Earth that have more humans than that number, then there is the fact that however rare mutants can still give birth to normal human children. Mutants don't have to wiped out, those that are not important can be "extras" just like the billions of humans running around that never do anything special or add to the story. Marvel had no problem with telling stories before decimation, it's when they try to bring these nobody mutants into a story that they find problems because apparently they can't write anymore so they decide genocide is the answer. Mutants can be born or manifest powers without us having to be aware of every one of them.

What the Xmen books were about is training the next generation of mutants to control their powers and fight evil mutants, you can't do that if there are no mutants

All natural stages of evolution are products of the Celetials experiments, it's their purpose in the universe. 

   I still don't see how having too many mutants becomes a problem for anybody as far as story telling is concerned, especially the way time passes in Marvel, it hardly moves at all, so we will never see a time where mutants become the dominate species,   we'll only have instances where people think it's happening, even when there were 16,000,000 they only represented a fraction of the Earths population, there are cities on Earth that have more humans than that number, then there is the fact that however rare mutants can still give birth to normal human children.  Mutants don't have to wiped out, those that are not important can be "extras" just like the billions of humans running around that never do anything special or add to the story. Marvel had no problem with telling stories before decimation, it's when they try to bring these nobody mutants into a story that they find problems because apparently they can't write anymore so they decide genocide is the answer. Mutants can be born or manifest powers without us having to be aware of every one of them. 

@Dernman said:

What the Xmen books were about is training the next generation of mutants to control their powers and fight evil mutants, you can't do that if there are no mutants

What the mutant books were and are about is protecting a world that fears and hates them. It also deals win many minority issues. Something becomes less and less when they start feeling like the minority. Also I never said no more mutants. Nowhere did I state that they couldn't create more mutants. Just that there shouldn't be an over abundance.

All natural stages of evolution are products of the Celetials experiments, it's their purpose in the universe.

No that is false. There is natural evolution and there is the evolution that came about by the meddling of the Celetials. Also there was a group of humans that evolved and gained powers of there own that were not meddled with nor were they mutants. I forget the name.

I still don't see how having too many mutants becomes a problem for anybody as far as story telling is concerned, especially the way time passes in Marvel, it hardly moves at all, so we will never see a time where mutants become the dominate species, we'll only have instances where people think it's happening, even when there were 16,000,000 they only represented a fraction of the Earths population, there are cities on Earth that have more humans than that number, then there is the fact that however rare mutants can still give birth to normal human children. Mutants don't have to wiped out, those that are not important can be "extras" just like the billions of humans running around that never do anything special or add to the story. Marvel had no problem with telling stories before decimation, it's when they try to bring these nobody mutants into a story that they find problems because apparently they can't write anymore so they decide genocide is the answer. Mutants can be born or manifest powers without us having to be aware of every one of them.

It is a problem. They have failed to show balance in the Marvel universe. They are way to flippant in the creation of characters, their usage and the presentation of characters and story. It makes you feel like they are less of a minority and emerging species. I wont even get into how the failed balance in numbers and power levels have already effected the stories in the sense of them being in danger of the humans. THey keep getting to the point where it becomes less believable that they couldn't just run ruff shot over the humans taking over. Many people have said they felt these things in the past. Just because you don't feel like that doesn't mean others don't. The over abundance of mutant characters, their failed attempts at balance, and the problems they did face in telling their stories is in fact they admitted is one of the reasons why they keep coming up with ways to cut down the mutant population in different ways.

They were created to protect those that feared them, from evil mutants, Xavier created a school to teach them to control their powers, so they also wouldn't endanger those around them. When the number of mutants decrease then the number of "evil" mutants decreases as the majority of them will unite under a common goal, as we just witnessed in the past few years. Decreasing the number of mutants leads to crappy stories like the ones we have been seeing, so decimation didn't really make anything better, they told way better stories before it.

The only beings on Earth to evolve outside of the Celestials experiments were the Inhumans and they didn't evolve so much so as be experimented on by the Kree trying to follow in the footsteps of the Celestials, which means they already would have had the potential for benevolent mutations because they were just a random group of humans until the Kree got to them. Cosmic beings in Marvel are responsible for natural things, it is the purpose of the Celestials to seed life with the potential to evolve. So this group you are talking about was still experimented on by the Celestials because they seeded all mankind in the beginning, making them indirectly responsible for all evolution on the planet that is not altered by outside forces.

The should feel like less of minority, just like real minorities in the real world, our numbers increase with each passing generation. We don't experience comic book time so like I said the number of mutants can increase in our time for the next 100 years and mutants can still be the minority, in the comics. With powers like Magneto, Xavier and Apocalypse when there were a only handful of known mutants it wasn't believable that they couldn't "run ruff shot over the humans", but the humans also have the potential to mutate into superbeings (thanks to the Celetials), use magic and create tech and have mutants that police themselves to even the odds, plus superior numbers have always kept the "mutant menace" in check, that and most mutants don't even have powers that would make them a major threat and many are killed by gangs of humans with bats, pipes and rocks as weapons. Cutting down the mutant population through acts of genocide is extreme and uncalled for. As I said there are billions of humans we don't hear about and the way to fix the mutant problem is to not address every neophyte mutant just because you want to make a name for yourself by creating an "new" mutant.

They were created to protect those that feared them, from evil mutants, Xavier created a school to teach them to control their powers, so they also wouldn't endanger those around them. When the number of mutants decrease then the number of "evil" mutants decreases as the majority of them will unite under a common goal, as we just witnessed in the past few years. Decreasing the number of mutants leads to crappy stories like the ones we have been seeing, so decimation didn't really make anything better, they told way better stories before it.

he only beings on Earth to evolve outside of the Celestials experiments were the Inhumans

The should feel like less of minority, just like real minorities in the real world, our numbers increase with each passing generation. We don't experience comic book time so like I said the number of mutants can increase in our time for the next 100 years and mutants can still be the minority, in the comics.  

With powers like Magneto, Xavier and Apocalypse when there were a only handful of known mutants it wasn't believable that they couldn't "run ruff shot over the humans", but the humans also have the potential to mutate into superbeings (thanks to the Celetials), use magic and create tech and have mutants that police themselves to even the odds, plus superior numbers have always kept the "mutant menace" in check, that and most mutants don't even have powers that would make them a major threat and many are killed by gangs of humans with bats, pipes and rocks as weapons. Cutting down the mutant population through acts of genocide is extreme and uncalled for. As I said there are billions of humans we don't hear about and the way to fix the mutant problem is to not address every neophyte mutant just because you want to make a name for yourself by creating an "new" mutant. 

@Dernman: Ok, we are gonna disagree about the presence of mutants and so forth, cool.@Dernman said:

@LordOfAllHumans:

he only beings on Earth to evolve outside of the Celestials experiments were the Inhumans

I'm going to stop you right there. I didn't read beyond that because that is just false and it seems like your argument is based off that. THere were other groups out there that naturally evolved IIRC Vargas was part of one of the different groups. Not to mention the stories of other species that naturally evolved without Celestial tampering and I say tampering because that's what it is. Celestial cause an evolution for the purpose of creating what they want but it's on the side of natural evolution that would have happened without them interfering. The Celestials do cause some evolution in some species but they are not the embodiment of evolution in the universe.

Now on to Vargas and what he claims to be. He is an evolved form of human being, and from Earth, as far as we know since we know virtually nothing about what he really is. The First host came to Earth when humanity was new, they experimented on that new race. Vargas claims to be another stage in human evolution, but still human which means his evolution into whatever he is, was indirectly caused by the Celestials experiments to seed the human race with the potential to gain super powers. Eternals, Deviants, Humans that gain powers by things that would normally kill a person, Mutants, and all other offshoots of humanity, are the result of those experiments. Who are these other off-shoots of humans, you speak of? How does them not being directly tampered with by the Celestials, disprove that the Celestials are responsible for the evolution of humanity on Earth? The Eternals and Deviants were directly altered, and everybody else was seeded with potential. The Inhumans were only created because the Kree were interested in the Celestials experiments that gave humans the genetic potential to express super powers. I'm not saying they don't naturally evolve, I'm saying if not programmed at the dawn of humanity this would not be a certainty. Marvel is not a big bang and everything happened by itself universe, everything in the universe is secretly (the reader knows) maintained and guided by the cosmic forces given form and function. The Celestials first origins have them being daydreams of Eternity (the Universe) you don't get more natural than forces of nature taking form. If they were not responsible they would not send a series of Hosts to Earth to judge it, fortunately for Earth, the goddesses saw the potential and fought for them. Gaia and other goddesses used their magic to bring out the potential in a group of humans (Young Gods) to keep the Celestials from destoying the Earth, by showing them how their experiment bore fruit.

It happened once, it can happen again.

At the time of the Decimation the Marvel universe was pretty much divided between the X-Men and the Heroes with little interaction between them. The problem was the editors did not take into account how many mutants there were in the world and it was becoming impossible to ignore the fact that there were millions of mutants in the world. I think it was becoming too hard for the so called heroes, or more specifically their creative to continue to ignore the plight of the mutants. I mean the Avengers and the Fantastic work fairly close with the government so they had to be awair that the funding for the Sentinels in whole or in part had to come from the government. Nevermind groups like the church of humanity and the purifiers that also had to be getting some assistance from the government to have the resources and weaponry the had access to. So rather than have them do anything do anything about it they implemented the Decimation which I think was incredibly lazy and the easy way out. From there the X-Men went into survival mode almost under siege by hate groups or government agencies (HAMMER). Now with a tighter intergreation of the Marvel universe and the stated goal of Captain America to pay closer attention to the plight of mutants to prevent further injustices from occuring, it seems the mutants can no longer be ignored by Marvel. Whether or not that actually happens remains to be seen.

@lorex said:

At the time of the Decimation the Marvel universe was pretty much divided between the X-Men and the Heroes with little interaction between them. The problem was the editors did not take into account how many mutants there were in the world and it was becoming impossible to ignore the fact that there were millions of mutants in the world. I think it was becoming too hard for the so called heroes, or more specifically their creative to continue to ignore the plight of the mutants. I mean the Avengers and the Fantastic work fairly close with the government so they had to be awair that the funding for the Sentinels in whole or in part had to come from the government. Nevermind groups like the church of humanity and the purifiers that also had to be getting some assistance from the government to have the resources and weaponry the had access to. So rather than have them do anything do anything about it they implemented the Decimation which I think was incredibly lazy and the easy way out. From there the X-Men went into survival mode almost under siege by hate groups or government agencies (HAMMER). Now with a tighter intergreation of the Marvel universe and the stated goal of Captain America to pay closer attention to the plight of mutants to prevent further injustices from occuring, it seems the mutants can no longer be ignored by Marvel. Whether or not that actually happens remains to be seen.

I agree. I would had been happy about Captain America actually trying to do something for the mutant community, if only it didn't take place after AvX when the X-men and the Avengers were just fighting each other.