Character Progression Bad to Good, Good To Bad and just plain meh

#1 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

In talking to some of you I wanted to ask the question? What characters do you think in the X-Universe has shown the best growth? Or the worst? Who has always sucked from day one?

If possible refrain from character vs character (ie Jean Vs Emma, etc) but feel free to note foils and supporting characters that really make the character shine or lose luster.

I will start with my worst of the bunch, No-Girl and the Blob.

Both are equally worthless with little to no real progression or charisma (or seemingly interest) to justify their existences in the X-Universe.

#2 Posted by knighthood (1693 posts) - - Show Bio

Best Character Progression: Storm, Nightcrawler, & Kitty Pryde

#3 Posted by time (5072 posts) - - Show Bio
@knighthood said:

Best Character Progression: Storm, Nightcrawler, & Kitty Pryde
 
If we talking about growth,  well I think
 
Good to bad
Emma Frost
Jean Grey
Bishop
Gambit
Charles
Magneto
 
bad to good
Cyclops
Kitty
Magik
 
50/50
Rogue
Wolverine

#4 Edited by IllyanaRasputin (1118 posts) - - Show Bio

Good to Bad

Emma Frost, Gambit, Magneto, Rogue. All Students, Hellion, Surge, Prodigy, Dust.

Bad to Good

Psylocke, Cyclops, Magik

#5 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@IllyanaRasputin: Totally agree with your list except I've always found Magik was just awesome from the start really. Was one of my three reasons for reading new mutants in the eighties.

#6 Edited by John Valentine (16313 posts) - - Show Bio

@IllyanaRasputin said:

Mostly spot on. (Well, I don't think Surge, Dust or Prodigy have really changed that much tbh).

Good to Bad

  • Emma Frost (Since Astonishing X-Men Giant Sized)
  • Storm (Since marrying T'Challa)
  • Gambit (Since the 90s)
  • Rogue (She's just generally a fail)
  • Hellion (Since New X-Men)
  • Wolverine (Since 2010, especially with Schism and Marvel's NOW! direction)
  • X-23 (Since New X-Men/X-Force Vol. 3)
  • Beast (He's become so damn whiney since Decimation)
  • Cannonball (Since Messiah Complex)

Bad to Good

  • Psylocke (Since Uncanny X-Force Vol. 1)
  • Cyclops (Since 2001, especially since Astonishing X-Men in 2004 and Messiah Complex in 2007)
  • Magik (Since her return)
  • Iceman (Since Carey's X-Men Vol. 2)
  • Madrox (Since X-Factor)
  • Shatterstar (Since X-Factor)

Meh

Magneto

Strong Guy (Initially great in X-Factor, don't like the current direction)

#7 Edited by cattlebattle (13000 posts) - - Show Bio

 Just my opinion of course
 
Good to Bad: Wolverine, Rogue, Magneto, Cannonball, Marrow, M,
 
Bad to Good: Warpath, Iceman,Rachel Grey, Strong Guy
 
Sucked from day one: Deadpool, Hellion, Shatterstar, Cable
 
@chasereis said:


I will start with my worst of the bunch, No-Girl and the Blob.

As a Blob fan ( I am sure I'm alone :(   ) I have to say that he was at one time a good villain who was actually a threat and had development, it just seems after Claremont left no one cared much about him or his Brotherhood uh....brethren.
#8 Posted by DarkxSeraph (672 posts) - - Show Bio

Good to Bad:

Hellion has been destroyed. What was a great character just got... dumped on. Repeatedly. Now he's gone from a hero who lost his hands saving people to the class bully at JGSHL.

Rogue: Getting control of her powers was a long fight coming, and even when Xavier helped her--it seemed forced. Not a personal triumph, just a psychic surgery session and poof. Then, shaking up with Magneto? yeeeaaah.

Magneto: Way to wuss out, bro.

Bad to Good:

Iceman.

Kitty Pryde

Up and Down, semi-coasting?:

Cyclops.

#9 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle: Sorry on the blob...cant help ya bro. The rest of your list is awesome. Still on the fence with rogue though...

@John Valentine said:

  • Storm (Since marrying T'Challa)

Could NOT agree more.

#10 Posted by IllyanaRasputin (1118 posts) - - Show Bio

@chasereis: I also loved Magik, but I wasn't a fan of her when she got taken away in Second Coming back to Limbo. It just didn't seem realistic that she'd be scared to venture off back to Limbo that's where she is most powerful, so it was just a tad of inconsistency. Other than that though I loved her as a Phoenix Host and right now I'm not to thrilled with how she's acting oblivious to what's happening in All New X-Men, but then again that's Bendis' fault, bad dialogue.

#11 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

Kind of hard to determine who is "good to bad" considering the long history most of my favourite characters have. Just off the cuff, I would say the following:

Good to Bad:

Cyclops. (kind of obvious)

Emma. (this one make me the most annoyed)

Magneto. (this guy following anyone is just flat out wrong)

Beast. (he's too smart for what's going on.)

X-23. (what the hell is she doing with a bunch of kids. Epic fail.)

Daken. (from charismatic, unapologetic monster to puddle breather. This qualifies for epic fail more than X-23.)

Hellion. (kind of obvious, if it isn't, you're know nothing of the character.)

Elektra. (this is pure WTF.)

Amora. (this is even more pure WTF.)

Nightcrawler. (he's dead - f*ck you, Marvel.)

Xavier: (not only is he dead, his brain's been scooped and shoved into a maniac's "skull". Of the crimson variety. Again, f*ck you, Marvel.)

Bad to Good:

Kitty. (I suspect this won't last long.)

Magik. (about time she got out and about)

Psylocke. (she is as bad@ss and as independent as they come -- this was a long time in coming.)

Hawkeye. (liking what is going on with him now.)

Sif. (she is a warrior goddess, not hammer wielding eye candy - about time.)

Same-o, Same-o Which is Probably Worse:

Rogue. (at least she's free of her geriatric fetish.)

Gambit. (at least he's got some b*lls left - at least the one not clutched in the above's grip.)

Angel. (brain-evacuated. Could have been worse.)

Iceman. (hey, look at me, I can multiply...hey, look at me, nothing was made of it.)

Hope. (started out over-marketed, remained over-marketed, proved she will remain as such.)

Thor. (want to make your pet character suddenly bad@ss? He's your resident jobber. Being a god means nothing these days in terms of Marvel.)

Jean. (better off dead, better off alive, better off teenaged, better off just...I can't even finish this sentence. It's that boring.)

I can probably go on and on but I am considering only the last couple of years. To be fair, it's like a roller-coaster -- going good to bad to bad to good and on and on. All dependent on the writers, etc, etc.

#12 Posted by DarkxSeraph (672 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lykopis

"X-23. (what the hell is she doing with a bunch of kids. Epic fail.)

Daken. (from charismatic, unapologetic monster to puddle breather. This qualifies for epic fail more than X-23.)

Hellion. (kind of obvious, if it isn't, you're know nothing of the character.)"

Is it too early to say I love you? This... this this this.

#13 Posted by Daycrawler (554 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@IllyanaRasputin said:

Mostly spot on. (Well, I don't think Surge, Dust or Prodigy have really changed that much tbh).

Good to Bad

  • Emma Frost (Since Astonishing X-Men Giant Sized)
  • Storm (Since marrying T'Challa)
  • Gambit (Since the 90s)
  • Rogue (She's just generally a fail)
  • Hellion (Since New X-Men)
  • Wolverine (Since 2010, especially with Schism and Marvel's NOW! direction)
  • X-23 (Since New X-Men/X-Force Vol. 3)
  • Beast (He's become so damn whiney since Decimation)
  • Cannonball (Since Messiah Complex)

Bad to Good

  • Psylocke (Since Uncanny X-Force Vol. 1)
  • Cyclops (Since 2001, especially since Astonishing X-Men in 2004 and Messiah Complex in 2007)
  • Magik (Since her return)
  • Iceman (Since Carey's X-Men Vol. 2)
  • Madrox (Since X-Factor)
  • Shatterstar (Since X-Factor)

Meh

Magneto

Strong Guy (Initially great in X-Factor, don't like the current direction)

Yeah, pretty much agree with this, though I kinda like the general direction the Wolverine has taken as it kinda compliments Cyke's progression (yin and yang, etc, etc). Main failing with Wolverine's characteri progression is that it's been too patchy and disjointed if you factor in all his appearances. To me, if you read Aaron's Wolverine run, Remender's X-Force run, coupled with Schism and WATXM, then it all makes sense.

Would've been tempted to add Deadpool (bad-to-good) given how awesomely he was written by Remender, but looking at Marvel NOW, I'm guessing that was only a temporary blip.

Reaaaalllly hate Beast, the big furry hypocrite. He has his own specially category of good-to-WTF!?!?!

#14 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkxSeraph said:

@Lykopis"X-23. (what the hell is she doing with a bunch of kids. Epic fail.) Daken. (from charismatic, unapologetic monster to puddle breather. This qualifies for epic fail more than X-23.) Hellion. (kind of obvious, if it isn't, you're know nothing of the character.)"Is it too early to say I love you? This... this this this.

lol --- good to see someone else who agrees. ;)

#15 Posted by Daycrawler (554 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@DarkxSeraph said:

@Lykopis"X-23. (what the hell is she doing with a bunch of kids. Epic fail.) Daken. (from charismatic, unapologetic monster to puddle breather. This qualifies for epic fail more than X-23.) Hellion. (kind of obvious, if it isn't, you're know nothing of the character.)"Is it too early to say I love you? This... this this this.

lol --- good to see someone else who agrees. ;)

Daken got the death he deserved.

#16 Posted by DarkxSeraph (672 posts) - - Show Bio

I rather enjoyed Daken as a breath of fresh air. This guy played the Fantastic Four for fools, manipulated everyone around him, and was utterly, truly, heartless.

His story was alright, but he was a great character, imo. He should have been kept around as a nemesis.

#17 Posted by John Valentine (16313 posts) - - Show Bio

@Daycrawler said:

@John Valentine said:

@IllyanaRasputin said:

Mostly spot on. (Well, I don't think Surge, Dust or Prodigy have really changed that much tbh).

Good to Bad

  • Emma Frost (Since Astonishing X-Men Giant Sized)
  • Storm (Since marrying T'Challa)
  • Gambit (Since the 90s)
  • Rogue (She's just generally a fail)
  • Hellion (Since New X-Men)
  • Wolverine (Since 2010, especially with Schism and Marvel's NOW! direction)
  • X-23 (Since New X-Men/X-Force Vol. 3)
  • Beast (He's become so damn whiney since Decimation)
  • Cannonball (Since Messiah Complex)

Bad to Good

  • Psylocke (Since Uncanny X-Force Vol. 1)
  • Cyclops (Since 2001, especially since Astonishing X-Men in 2004 and Messiah Complex in 2007)
  • Magik (Since her return)
  • Iceman (Since Carey's X-Men Vol. 2)
  • Madrox (Since X-Factor)
  • Shatterstar (Since X-Factor)

Meh

Magneto

Strong Guy (Initially great in X-Factor, don't like the current direction)

Yeah, pretty much agree with this, though I kinda like the general direction the Wolverine has taken as it kinda compliments Cyke's progression (yin and yang, etc, etc). Main failing with Wolverine's characteri progression is that it's been too patchy and disjointed if you factor in all his appearances. To me, if you read Aaron's Wolverine run, Remender's X-Force run, coupled with Schism and WATXM, then it all makes sense.

Would've been tempted to add Deadpool (bad-to-good) given how awesomely he was written by Remender, but looking at Marvel NOW, I'm guessing that was only a temporary blip.

Reaaaalllly hate Beast, the big furry hypocrite. He has his own specially category of good-to-WTF!?!?!

Hmmmm.

Remender's X-Force did have the whole "Don't turn out like me" thing going on between Wolverine and Genesis when Evan was about to kill Sabertooth. Still, I don't think it makes 100% sense after the years of slaughter and all the horrible things he's done.

Remender's Deadpool was great, one of the few interpretations of the character I've actually enjoyed reading about. I like the characterisation of Wade's seriousness that exists beneath his joking facade, something that Remender put across so well.

Beast deserves to be in that "WTF" category. He hasn't done anything useful since M-Day. Maybe Scott would have turned out differently if his oldest friends hadn't abandoned him.

#18 Posted by John Valentine (16313 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkxSeraph said:

I rather enjoyed Daken as a breath of fresh air. This guy played the Fantastic Four for fools, manipulated everyone around him, and was utterly, truly, heartless. His story was alright, but he was a great character, imo. He should have been kept around as a nemesis.

I've never enjoyed Daken as a character. Found his presence to be forced and annoying.

#19 Posted by DarkxSeraph (672 posts) - - Show Bio

*swears that he can't @Reply at work*
"Remender's X-Force did have the whole "Don't turn out like me" thing going on between Wolverine and Genesis when Evan was about to kill Sabertooth. Still, I don't think it makes 100% sense after the years of slaughter and all the horrible things he's done."

Did you see his talk with laura after their brutal fight when she wanted to kill them both?

Can't remember the issues or series, I think the scans are somewhere around CV, though.

Essentially, Logan tells her that she can kill him if he wants, because everything he did was his choice. But, he won't let her kill herself because she had no choice and still can become better than she is.

This has been a theme for him, honestly. He knows he's the monster and killer. He doesn't need anyone else going that route unless they truly choose it. (ala: X-Force vol 3 when they are about to go on thier first mission and he gives the speech.)

#20 Posted by IllyanaRasputin (1118 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@Daycrawler said:

@John Valentine said:

@IllyanaRasputin said:

Mostly spot on. (Well, I don't think Surge, Dust or Prodigy have really changed that much tbh).

Good to Bad

  • Emma Frost (Since Astonishing X-Men Giant Sized)
  • Storm (Since marrying T'Challa)
  • Gambit (Since the 90s)
  • Rogue (She's just generally a fail)
  • Hellion (Since New X-Men)
  • Wolverine (Since 2010, especially with Schism and Marvel's NOW! direction)
  • X-23 (Since New X-Men/X-Force Vol. 3)
  • Beast (He's become so damn whiney since Decimation)
  • Cannonball (Since Messiah Complex)

Bad to Good

  • Psylocke (Since Uncanny X-Force Vol. 1)
  • Cyclops (Since 2001, especially since Astonishing X-Men in 2004 and Messiah Complex in 2007)
  • Magik (Since her return)
  • Iceman (Since Carey's X-Men Vol. 2)
  • Madrox (Since X-Factor)
  • Shatterstar (Since X-Factor)

Meh

Magneto

Strong Guy (Initially great in X-Factor, don't like the current direction)

Yeah, pretty much agree with this, though I kinda like the general direction the Wolverine has taken as it kinda compliments Cyke's progression (yin and yang, etc, etc). Main failing with Wolverine's characteri progression is that it's been too patchy and disjointed if you factor in all his appearances. To me, if you read Aaron's Wolverine run, Remender's X-Force run, coupled with Schism and WATXM, then it all makes sense.

Would've been tempted to add Deadpool (bad-to-good) given how awesomely he was written by Remender, but looking at Marvel NOW, I'm guessing that was only a temporary blip.

Reaaaalllly hate Beast, the big furry hypocrite. He has his own specially category of good-to-WTF!?!?!

Hmmmm.

Remender's X-Force did have the whole "Don't turn out like me" thing going on between Wolverine and Genesis when Evan was about to kill Sabertooth. Still, I don't think it makes 100% sense after the years of slaughter and all the horrible things he's done.

Remender's Deadpool was great, one of the few interpretations of the character I've actually enjoyed reading about. I like the characterisation of Wade's seriousness that exists beneath his joking facade, something that Remender put across so well.

Beast deserves to be in that "WTF" category. He hasn't done anything useful since M-Day. Maybe Scott would have turned out differently if his oldest friends hadn't abandoned him.

Agreed. I think things would have turned out 100% differently if Scott's oldest friends haven't turned on him. And no offence what have Wolverine and his side accomplished since breaking off from Utopia? Starting a school? Bullox!

#21 Posted by DarkxSeraph (672 posts) - - Show Bio

And fighting pre-teen Hellfire club! *gag*

#22 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

Maybe Scott would have turned out differently if his oldest friends hadn't abandoned him.

Don't see this one, sadly. The combination of poor writing, revolving door creative staff and general bad decisions Cyclops himself has made this was the only possible outcome. He broke himself, like we didn't see THAT coming in UXM 201.

#23 Posted by John Valentine (16313 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkxSeraph said:

*swears that he can't @Reply at work* "Remender's X-Force did have the whole "Don't turn out like me" thing going on between Wolverine and Genesis when Evan was about to kill Sabertooth. Still, I don't think it makes 100% sense after the years of slaughter and all the horrible things he's done." Did you see his talk with laura after their brutal fight when she wanted to kill them both? Can't remember the issues or series, I think the scans are somewhere around CV, though. Essentially, Logan tells her that she can kill him if he wants, because everything he did was his choice. But, he won't let her kill herself because she had no choice and still can become better than she is. This has been a theme for him, honestly. He knows he's the monster and killer. He doesn't need anyone else going that route unless they truly choose it. (ala: X-Force vol 3 when they are about to go on thier first mission and he gives the speech.)

It's in X-23: Innocence Lost.

Still, I don't like this whole "saint Logan, great headmaster" vibe going on. I don't think Logan should be the one to lead this cause. The only reason he is doing so is due to his popularity. There are better choices amongst the X-Men, a la Storm, who would make a more suitable choice as the compassionate leader/teacher of children (Well, so I thought. Maybe not in Marvel now).

It's clear that he's a killer. Even if he believes children shouldn't fight, his actions do not set a good precedent for them not to do so. Second to that, it's denying that they're targets. They're trying to make Wolverine the new Xavier, but he doesn't have the moral core that is compounded by his actions to support this. That's my issue.

#24 Posted by John Valentine (16313 posts) - - Show Bio

@chasereis said:

@John Valentine said:

Maybe Scott would have turned out differently if his oldest friends hadn't abandoned him.

Don't see this one, sadly. The combination of poor writing, revolving door creative staff and general bad decisions Cyclops himself has made this was the only possible outcome. He broke himself, like we didn't see THAT coming in UXM 201.

I don't actually have a problem with Scott's new direction.

#25 Posted by DarkxSeraph (672 posts) - - Show Bio

I see your point. The only way to make this work is pull him back and play up the war-torn veteren/sensei angle. But, popularity demands he take a role in the butt-kickin'. Plus, that's his final stage as a character, imo.

It is rather hypocritical of him to give this advice while actively continuing to do the things he tells others not to, and him opening the JGSHL is... strange, to say the least.

After seeing Kitty work with young Jean, I'd say she's a good candidate. Storm, we will see where she goes... but Kitty has always been a moral compass, imo.

#26 Posted by John Valentine (16313 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkxSeraph said:

I see your point. The only way to make this work is pull him back and play up the war-torn veteren/sensei angle. But, popularity demands he take a role in the butt-kickin'. Plus, that's his final stage as a character, imo. It is rather hypocritical of him to give this advice while actively continuing to do the things he tells others not to, and him opening the JGSHL is... strange, to say the least. After seeing Kitty work with young Jean, I'd say she's a good candidate. Storm, we will see where she goes... but Kitty has always been a moral compass, imo.

Exactly, the "man conquering his feral urges/controlled sensei" characterisation would be an acceptable one for Headmaster Logan. But alas, maybe his current dysfunctional depiction helps to add to the faux-comedy in this poor title.

I opted for Storm as she's typically been a leading figure in the X-Men and is perceivably more motherly than Kitty. That said, I'm not sure what her split with T'Challa and mohawk will do to her character.

Regardless of that, I think the whole "no child combat" approach with these characters is a ridiculous.

a) None of them are children (the youngest, Genesis, is still a teenager), most of the New X-Men kids are late teens.

b) All of them are targets.

c) Pretty much all of them have had to fight for their existence for a significant portion of their lives.

#27 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine: I dont really either but like I said equal and opposite reaction, ya know. That is how these things bite good people in the ass in the end.

@DarkxSeraph: Actually if you have time to go back and review them check those UXM issues 138-up. Not only is kitty the original replacement member for Jean, she was the only student then (this was pre-New Mutants). Now she is teaching her predecessor as Xavier would have. A lot of irony there, Bendis really seems to like the subtle nostalgia thing, not that I mind.

#28 Posted by John Valentine (16313 posts) - - Show Bio

@chasereis said:

@John Valentine: I dont really either but like I said equal and opposite reaction, ya know. That is how these things bite good people in the ass in the end.

I loved the "You are being the better man, so that I don't have to be" line from AvX:Consequences #5 in Scott's letter to Logan.

#29 Posted by acer51 (2248 posts) - - Show Bio

My favorite X-man is Cyclops, I've always liked him as a hero but since his fall to the way of anti-hero I've become a true fan of his.

I think his character development has been truly awesome.

#30 Posted by Spawn92 (285 posts) - - Show Bio

Worst? Marrow. Seriously, what happened to her?

#31 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine: That was a delicious bit of irony 40 years in the making wasnt it?

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