Ok so there's been alot of talk and back and forth discussion over the rumors floating around out there about the Xmen post-Secret wars. Ive recently heard that it was Marts idea and with him gone and now a new editor and rumored new writers, its kind of up in the air. I think all of us here have expressed our frustrations with the the Xmen's treatment but we still have some reservations about something major like this potentially happening. Like many of the new direction things Marvel has been trying, the concept is highly flawed but at least in my opinion not altogether garbage.

So just in the interest of discussion and brain-picking/storming or whatever... Let's just say that this is the mandate. How could it be done successfully? How would you make this concept work, if you had too?

I'll just start by saying I think that its partly the fault of the writers and editors and Marvel in general when it comes to the confusion about mutants and their being disliked while other superpowered individuals are loved. Part of me chalks it up to them looking to demonstrate how stupid hatred and racism is. But honestly the fear of the potential danger of someone reading or projecting thoughts into your mind or affecting the elements is understandable. I guess people could look at the Avengers as being heroes who use their powers for good, but they were once regular people who had something happen to them. They are not kids with powers that develop at puberty and who may be out of control when it comes to the use of powers. But still thats a fairly weak premise, at least in my opinion. Also the hatred is explainable if the focus is on mutant supplanting baseline humans as the dominant species almost as if mutants are the next stage of evolution and by their existence humans are in danger of becoming extinct or at least replaced.In fact the fear from the thought that mutants as a species were slowly going to take over and replace normal humans could be understandable. Still it would be hard to justify how people know a person is a mutant. When you really look at things, it really makes no sense what-so-ever to hate mutants but love the Avengers or FF or whatever. So with that background I can see the argument for simplifcation by the Xmen being separated from the Avengers, FF etc. In the past, especially when indulging my CompleX(lol), Ive been one that has rooted for the Xmen having their own universe. In fact I've wanted Image or IDW or Valiant or Dark Horse to just take over the Xmen and now Fantastic Four and let the Avengers have their own thing. I mean completely separate. But my problem with the whole mutants off world/new planet thing, is that a big part of their premise is in dealing with humans. So here's my take on how it could possibly be done, not that i agree with the idea but if we just had to do it....

I guess it would be more successful if half the population of baseline humans is also adversely affected by the Terrigen mist as well. I think that since the Inhumanity thing began many humans have died because of not being fit enough or able to survive Terrigenesis and so that could be the premise for many wanting to leave to avoid the potential adverse effects of that process. In other words there are some that don't want to be Inhumans or Nuhumans or whatever- they don't want to be deformed, or be discriminated against. Others are afraid to take a chance in going through the process successfully and would rather not take a risk of dying from it. If these humans were to relocate and find that mutants have had to do the same, the resulting conflict could be interesting and still keeping the hated and feared, mutant vs human concept.

The other thing is that, and Im speaking more for me personally, I was looking at the post- SW landscape as being one planet and one reality. I know that whole battleworld concept is a patchwork planet and while Secret Wars will change some things that doesnt mean that or at least I havent heard it said, that the post SW-Marvel U will be all in one reality/universe. Perhaps the Xmen will just be in another reality/universe with humans on an earth in that reality/universe, while the Avengers and Inhumans and GOTG will be in a separate reality/universe on earth. Sort of similar to the Ultimate and 616. Just looking at the X-related books like Inferno, X-tinction Agenda, as well as House of M, Old man Logan, Xmen 92 and even the Uncanny Avengers stuff- we could have a situation where the mutants just exist in another universe/reality after Secret wars ends and the Battleworld breaks apart or whatever. Again if done right this could keep the mutant vs human concept and actually allows for the expansion of the Xmen to some degree.

Plus, I dont think Counter-earth has returned as a concept just for no reason, so that may come into play. I guess what Im saying is, I can see advantages and disadvantages to the Xmen being separate. Separating them would go against all continuity and would end the history of the shared world the Xmen have existed in with Spiderman and the Avengers etc. It would also produce many hurdles for writers to overcome as far as logical storytelling goes. The advantages would or could possibly be less line-wide crossover events that force the Xmen and Avengers to be in them and as antagonist to each other. I think being on another planet or in another reality might make the Xmen more united and end the Schism (which is something I see most fans want) but still have distinct differences in concept and distinguishing factors as far as teams/books (which is also something I see that most fans want). If done right you dont lose the human element but the heroes concept might become slightly more easily understood. It would be a fresh start somewhat which is needed and we get to see whether a separate universe would really work. It also would set up for in the future a massive Marvel event in which the realities are combined again or the Xmen and humans on their planet/reality return to earth or some otherworldly threat poses the end for both realities/earths or whatever. That would be something that Marvel would love considering how they love events, plus it might give the fans a little bit of what they want, which is a bit of a break from event after event. Maybe this huge event would concide with Marvel and Fox reaching an agreement on the Xmen in the movie-verse or something.

Any thoughts?

ugh..
Well if we're going to assume it's true, I'd like to be positive about it.....I just don't want the X-Men to go to space.

Rather then debate all the obvious issues of the how and why of getting there, or even what form the "mutant metaphor" should/could take when the X-Men aren't on the planet....Let's just remember that the X-Men's bread and butter comes from "protecting the world that hates and fears them".

Now if you wanna take a closer look at it, you don't even have to go very far. People complain and moan about Bendis, but there's never any doubt that his Uncanny title is the most relevant to the story because it tackles the issue of "mutants and the world". The JGS books are all more focused and centered then Fraction's run...but Fraction's Utopia stories on his worst day is more relevant to the franchise then anything in Amazing, XX-Men, or Spider/Wolverine/Deadpool/Tooth and the X-Men could be. The reason being because "super-heroics" are what the X-Men do, not what they're about.


So it's pretty obvious why this won't be ideal in my book, but lets look at what could be done to make it work:

While "mutants exiled and seperated from humanity" seems very similar to Utopia.. one thing it gives us is a chance to explore an element that we hadn't explored during that period, because the X-Men hadn't really gone anywhere. And that element is- "What do humans and mutants do without eachother?"

That's a question that is never really looked at, but can be asked on multiple levels. What do the sentinel builders do with the mutants off world? Plot to blow up Planet-X? Attack Inhumans?

What do the Avengers do without their Z-Team? Do they try to fix the Mist problems? Do they note how much easier life is now that their aren't mutant problems?

What do the mutants, the Magentites, the Cyclops followers, Xavierites...what do all these sides do now that they've been kicked off the planet NOT by a human plot...but by freakin aliens? Who do they blame for their problems, and what goals do they set?

There's ALOT of things to address and really look at....a whole world to really be examined and built. The X-Men essentially become the Inhumans with a chance to build their own empire.

That's my best shot at the positive...but still alot of it is a retread of what we just did with Utopia...and even still...I just don't want the X-Men to go to space.

@koays: Yea. I dont want them in space either. But somewhat separate is not a terrible idea. Which why I was proposing the ideas of humans still being involved and it just being another earth in another reality or universe.

But really its a bad idea no matter how you spin it.

I liked the shared universe, but I don't think continuity is important beyond how it serves the story, so here's my thinking..

for most X-men stories, it doesn't matter that they live in the same world as other superheroes, so in X-men comics I don't think they need to.

Avengers comics, on the other hand, are by their nature a team-up book. And like, say, Superman vs. the Amazing Spider-Man, for the sake of crossovers, the rules that apply to specific characters' worlds need not apply for the sake of the story. So while X-men comics might be just as interesting set in a world without other superheroes, that doesn't mean the same rules need apply for Avengers comics. Basically every book can be set in it's own continuity. Some might be more shared than others, but that seems like it could/should be dictated by the needs of the story. X-men comics might be better served in a world that doesn't have other superheroes, but Avengers comics might be better served in a world that does have X-men.

DC seems to already be going in this direction, and Secret Wars seems like it could easily lead to that. Right now there's the conceit of Battle-World tying all of the books to one continuity, but there needn't be; any or all of them could just continue as stories set in their own worlds, any new story could be the start of a new world or -like we're seeing with BW- the revisiting of a world from an old story.

If anything it seems like DC is just acknowledging what fans have recognized for years: many if not most of their most beloved classics don't share a common continuity anyway.

Books/characters like Spider-Gwen or X-MEN '92 were never from the 616 to begin with, and, as far as we know, neither were Old Man Logan, Futures Imperfect, Days of Future Past, Spider-Man 2099, etc, etc, yet that doesn't stop any of those stories from being beloved classics -or even from crossing over with each other, if that's what the story's about.

Continuity should serve the story, not the other way around. There doesn't have to be a main or official continuity beyond whatever world the story itself is set. The idea that there does is really a pretty arbitrary one.

Well it does settle the question as to why people are cool with Asgardians, aliens and meta humans but build killer robots to hunt down mutants. Of course the inhumans are pretty much taking the mutants place so I guess the question will just change slightly.

It can work, but it's gonna take some serious effort from the creative team.

@oldnightcrawler: So do you think the idea of the Xmen going to another planet is a mistake or can it work? Also do you see he mutant/human element is important?

1. X-men go to other planets all the time. But that they are earthlings, humans, seems central to the theme. Earth should be where they live, I guess. That could be one with other superheroes on it or not, though, is all I meant.

2. to the X-men? it's one of -if not the- most important themes.

I agree. Thats why Im worried about this idea

@oldnightcrawler: Are you applying the same rule for continuity to the individual X-Books, or just the franchise in relation to the greater Marvel U? LIke if the supposed "Terrigen Mist kills Mutants" idea were to be the driving theme of the next Uncanny Vol., you'd be ok with a X-factor/force/ calibur title that was set in Manhattan without any reference to that plot.

I ask because I read alot of DC so I've come to recently enjoy the idea that Robo-Batman being important to batbooks doesnt mean that I have to see him in the Justice League (though their system has room to show how it would work). But as a rule i feel things like "Spider-man is Doc Ock" need to be acknowledged and kept up to speed with other books so that lessons and experiences gained from things aren't glossed over the next time Spidey teams up with someone who ends up getting mind controlled.

They aren't always cool with those beings. Hence Hulk busters, Spider Slayers, certain divisions of SHIELD etc.

@cattlebattle: The point is the Avengers get parades when they save the Earth while the X-Men get spat on when they do even if its just as public and clear they're the good guys. Also Spider-Slayers were never a response to a global concern they were built and entirely funded by a few dudes with a grudge against Spider-Man, Hulk busters were created for one specific guy and not an entire sub-species, and as far as Shield goes, its part of their job to respond to Super human threats and aside from Civil War they've always been hands off unless specifically required.

Sentinels on the other hand are designed for the sole purpose of tracking and detaining an entire group of people regardless of threat level just because they're different. Comparing Spider slayers to Sentinels is like comparing a serial killer to the Third Reich.

Sentinels are almost always manufactured and unleashed illegally by an individual or a shadow cabinet with a private agenda (Trask, Lang, Shaw,)......not any different from aforementioned spider slayers really.

Also, in most versions of the "Days of Future Past" scenarios, the Sentinels, and those that work with them, like Ahab or Nimrod for instance, exterminate anyone with super powers, not just mutants, because they realize prejudice against a certain group of people who have powers is not efficient. The issue where Nimrod first encounters the X-Men he actually attacks the Juggernaut, who is not a mutant, because he has a high threat level as an "enhanced human"

The whole "why do people hate mutants and like super humans in the Marvel U?? It doesn't make sense" is a big misconception. The X-Men comics have dealt with that very fact many times before, especially in the Claremont era. There is also a great number of instances where the government or people in general show prejudice against super humans like the Hulk, Spider-Man, Thor, Iron Man during the "Armor Wars" story.

The Avengers have been enemies of the government before as well. The have been wanted for treason and have actually sent "Freedom Force", a collective of mutants after them. Heck the whole point behind the "Civil War" story was the public not trusting super humans.

Yea but for the most part mutants are hated and feared more so than just superpowered individuals. Sure there are a few instances otherwise but in general most of the hatred is reserved for mutants.

All of a sudden the Marvel U just seems to have gotten quite crowded. The Inhumans are now set up as the hated and feared. Avengers are the heroes and government team. So where's the room for the Xmen now?

I really hate this because the Fantastic Four and the Inhumans would seem to be the perfect fits for your cosmic Marvel stuff. The Avengers could still continue to handle what they do. And the Xmen would still have their place as well. That to me is a shared universe everyone having their own place or niche but still able to deal with each other when necessary

Sure, why not?

Or X-men is set in it's own reality and Uncanny X-men is in a shared continuity with other characters, for example. I mean, there's usually at least 4 X-men books anyway, having any or all of them set in different realities could only make each of them that much more distinct from the others. So the Inhumans present a threat to the X-men in one story, there's no particular reason that has to be part of the story in every X-men book.

Dr.Spiderpus is one of those things that you want to see acknowledged because of all the great interactions he had with the rest of the MU, and it's a big part of what made him an interesting part of how Spider-man interacts with other characters. And those interactions can still happen in crossovers, but a crossover needn't be less because they aren't.

There's at least one version of Spider-man who beat the X-men single-handed in the 80's and several other versions since that have either never met them or are meeting them for the first time.Spider-man and the X-men is just one example of characters who have teamed-up several times over the decades, but plenty of those were them meeting for the first time in different situations. And there are still versions of both that have never met.

Like, whenever there's a new animated series for any comic character, it seems generally assumed that it will be it's own new reality, based on the characters and stories, but not expected to be completely faithful to the source material because it's an adaptation. When I read X-Men Classic Magneto was one of the heroes, when I read X-Men Adventures he was one of the villains, but both versions made sense in the context of their respective story; it's easy to say that 'Adventures was an adaptation of the 'Classic stories, but you could just as easily say that Claremont's Magneto was an adaptation of Stan Lee's. So I don't see why people expect continuity to be strictly upheld from one book to the next anyway.

@oldnightcrawler: But if Jean or Xavier or Wolverine is dead, shouldn't that carry across all books. I just don't think completely scrapping continuity and ignoring everything just for the sake of telling story is the way to go. I think it can be respected but still allow for great stories to be told. In fact I think that we'd have less opportunity to poke holes in stories and they'd at times be more concise if continuity was respected a bit more. I would save the stories that just float out in lala land for an Xtreme Xmen or Exiles type book

I would think the "mutants leave earth" thing would only work for a brief while, leading up to another so-called huge event. I've heard counter-earth which would definitely not be an uninhabited planet. I've even heard some moon named Europa.

The thing is...what stories do you get there? Maybe the dangers mutants face in seeking a home world could be one. Them building a society but still dealing prejudice among their own kind. A few trying to rule others. Maybe we get another cosmic type thing in which the Shiar or Kree or some other alien race decides to try and subjugate or conquer the planet to add to their empires. Perhaps something of value like Oil or Vibrabium or whatever is found in the planet and huge corporations decide to invade or take away the planet from mutant like what was done to the Native Americans and others. I guess you could have SHIELD or SWORD trying to control the planet or impose regulations on it in order to keep down paranoia. Perhaps they would still need supplies from earth which would constantly be under threat of hijacking or just being plain out stopped by opposition. And I guess somewhat similar to what Inferno is in SW right now, you could have mutants still being born on earth and kept hidden or in stasis or quarantined off in a camp or installation or something and every so often the Xmen would take excursions back to earth to rescue those mutants from the poisoned gas on the surface. And again maybe some humans seek to escape the dangers of terrigenesis and also decide to leave earth and seek to establish themselves in the new planet as well, causing conflict. I guess those types of stories could be of interest but the backdrop of wondering when the Xmen would get back to being Xmen would be a heavy one for any writer or editor to constantly deal with, especially considering how touchy many of them get in interviews and at the various open forums at comic cons. I guess that goes to support some of my theory that a heavily criticised writer like Bendis abruptly ended his run in part because of being fatigued from the heavy and constant scrutiny of everything he did. Maybe I'm placing too much emphasis on the fans and their reaction but Im sure Bendis for example wouldn't classify his time on Xmen as fun and one of his favorites. Now I know most likely the main reason for his departure is the take-off of his Powers series which again allows him more freedom being creator owned as opposed to the xmen and all the history behind it. I would think having your own characters and your own continuity would be much easier and highly preferred to borrowing someone else's toys and just adding your two cents in. If they were to go through with the mutant planet separate xmen idea, the next writer would be under tremendous scrutiny and pressure. And really who would want that?

I would think stories like that could be told but it just seems so far away from the purpose of the Xmen and so far from continuity and the status quo that its hard to see that being supported and accepted. Also it doesn't seem like there would be enough stories to really sustain the line for long. There would always be the inevitable question of when are the mutants going home. Not to mention his the story would have a weak premise considering his the Terrigen mist all of sudden being poisonous to mutants seems weakly contrived and not in line with continuity and history. And even if that was the case, as someone mentioned before, with so many elementals and healers and magic users and reality altering mutants around couldn't they do something? Storm could blow the clouds away or Elixir and Triage and Angel could just heal people or Iceman could go Lu-Apocalyspe style and send planet into an ice age to just cleanse it of the gas. Or the all the Phoenixes and reality warping and magic users the xmen deal with could just make it go away. It would be difficult to even bother to explain and kind of insulting to sensible fans for them to think they could just gloss over those things. But I say that and then look at the weakness of the premise that brought us the O5 now and tend to think they don't even really care anymore about telling concise stories.

Can it work? Hell yes, and I had a lot of manifests on this board to express how and why. But, do I want it right now? No. And I'm sure the so called All New All Different Marvel is not going to be the hyper creative, logically structured and vagueness shattering place I'm hoping it'll be, still I prefer to wait for this absolutely incredible shared world concept already established, and now seemingly fading away, to even slightly resemble what I have in my mind.

@adamtrmm: Explain?

@hawk2916:

How can it work? Well if I understand correctly, we're talking about mutants populating a new world which is a complete creative freedom since I can't really believe this said world will be completely unsettled by any other species. I mean, mutants without some other species to marginalize? Pfft. Seriously though, it's all an absolute freedom of direction and it can evolve into anything, I mean anything.

Now why wouldn't I want this to happen is because, while muties are my favorites, I do love the MU, and Earth in particular as well. And now, with Inhumans taking their own part in what was once basically a mutant only depiction of struggle, I can't see this segregation as anything else but a strict simplification, clearing the way for those who aren't good enough to make it all work TOGETHER.

imo of course

1. why? Jean and Wolverine are both dead in current 616 continuity, but they're both alive in X-men '92. All the X-men are dead except Wolverine in Old man Logan. Batman's dead in Batman comics, but he's still on the JLA. I don't think every book needs to follow the same story.

2. Continuity can be respected without there being one main continuity, is my point.

3. All the stories take place in imaginary worlds.

@oldnightcrawler: I see your point and I'm more inclined then ever to agree with it. But I feel like there are still levels of continuity that should probably be up held.

Like it would obviously strengthen the fan opinions of a creators integrity for them to just come out and say what stories a certain book will tie into, and having a story like Ultimate X-Men (the tail end with Kitty in charge, not the "we're so unlikeable you're happy we all died" part) really gave something to franchise when you don't wanna follow a certain story arc or the concequences of AvX/Axis/BotA or whatever. So i'm completely behind that.

But at the same time, even DC books sort of have levels of continuity with eachother (Batman, Bat/Supes, Superman, Supes/Wondy, Wonderwoman making up tier 1 and the main JL book being tier 2 for instance) where you know that things that happen in one will eventually trickle down to others even if it's only in reference following the conclusion of a story arc.

I think that the X-Men could greatly benefit from not being 100% linked with the everyday affairs of Marvel, but idk if i'd go so far as to say i'd want continuity too fluid amongst the books. I mean to me XX-Men was a better story then All New X-Men was 8/10 times, but All New X-Men was almost required to at least stay up on due to how closely it was tied in to Uncanny's plot, and in a way it improved the (questionable) quality of the story. A book like Amazing X-Men of about the same quality of All New X-Men is just irrelevant when you have a more fleshed out option that doesn't just read as disjointed tales by different writers.

@oldnightcrawler: I'm wasn't discussing the 616 vs that Secret Wars stuff. SW is an interruption right now. I'm speaking more in terns of the regular flow of things not a line wide shutdown event. In 616 say for instance, if Logan is dead in Amazing Xmen then he should not be still running around in Uncanny just for the sake of a story. And please don't try and make it fit by the silly 8 months earlier or later or whatever.

Now I agree with your point about there being one main continuity or not. I just think if books are set in the 616 then they should hold to that particular continuity while a book in the Ultimate Universe doesn't have to be bound by 616 rules but should hold continuity in its own universe.

I guess with the third point that was you being funny right.

eh, depends on the arc. Morrison's All Star Superman didn't follow the main continuity or have any lasting effects outside of itself. It used continuity the way a cartoon or movie would, as a resource rather than a restriction. And I think it was a better story because of it. Then there's stuff like The Killing Joke; it couldn't be part of the main continuity of the time (because of the ending), but still effected the main continuity for decades as the story in which Bat-girl gets shot.

Marvel already has pretty glaring examples of being just as fluid with continuity. I mean, we all assume that House of M happened to the heroes of the main continuity because of how it had lasting effects on so many books, right? And we can assume that the X-men featured in it are those from Whedon's Astonishing X-Men (it's even billed as an Astonishing X-men/New Avengers crossover on the cover) ..except those two books don't actually make sense in the same continuity (HoM would have to be after Gifted, because Colossus is alive, but if Colossus is alive, Beast should have a working cure for mutation, which means none of that story needs to have happened).

So it makes the most sense to say that HoM was in the main continuity (since it involved/effected the most characters) and that Astonishing' was an adaptation based on that continuity but not set in it. And, like Killing Joke, it still had lasting effects on continuity (for Kitty and Colossus, anyway), despite not being set in the main continuity. In a way, it's like Astonishing' was cannon for X-men fans, besides not part of the mainstream continuity, which is kind of cooler.

I don't see either as especially relevant, myself. I kept reading Uncanny' long after I'd dropped All-new', and I never felt like I was missing anything. In the long game they're only as relevant as future writers are inspired by them, in the now they're only as relevant as they are entertaining.

Probably All-new' will leave more of an impact on the landscape because it crossed over with pretty much every other character, but neither of them is going to be relevant if they don't do something worth revisiting by future writers, because they aren't either of them going to be remembered for being especially good.

1. I wasn't either, specifically, I just used those as examples because they're coming back. My point was just to use them as examples of why there doesn't need to be one main continuity, because any one book can establish it's own through the story, as both of them show because they were already stories set in their own continuity years ago.

2. ?

3. yeah, sure. If Wolverine's dead in Uncanny' and Uncanny's set in the same continuity as Amazing, he should be dead at the same time (or have some explanation for why people think he's dead in the other, whatever). I'm just saying that Amazing' and Uncanny' don't have to be in the same continuity just because they use the same/overlapping characters.

The thing with the Ultimate books (or 2099, or 1902, or Max, etc) was that there was only ever so many books in the same "line" anyway, so all of them worked as adaptations; whereas the assumption that every book that isn't part of a specific line is all considered the same (616) continuity, even if they contradict each other (which we know they do all the time).

Every other continuity, be it separate lines or adaptations, draws from the main continuity; but unlike them, the main draws from all of them as well. Because the main continuity is made up of everything that isn't part of a specific line, it's constantly shifting and evolving to maintain itself, which actually makes it the least solid of any continuity anyway.

@oldnightcrawler: Its just shabby and shoddy storytelling at this point. And they constantly try and use magic or time travel to explain away the laziness in writing. I won't play word games or talk in circles about continuity because stories flow better when they make sense and you can see where they are in the stream of time. It just makes for better and more concise reading and understanding. I feel like we wouldn't constantly need so many renumberings and reboots and these new jumping on points for new readers if they could simply follow a timeline of events and read things chronologically. Bottom line in my opinion is we have some weak storytelling and lazy writing right now. At times in work when I do editing for advance copy books the flow of the story and timeline is important or its easily dismissed as inaccurate. So maybe I look at things critically. But I shouldnt be able to poke holes in stories this easily. I will just say that this is certainly not the best time for x-fans.

Can the X-Men being in a separate world work? It possibly can, since the most complaints I've been hearing about the X-Men Universe is that it seems that only mutants are being hated even though there are other superheroes (like Hulk and Spider-Man) that could easily be mistaken for mutants and yet they barely get criticized for their powers by the human population (even though Spider-Man and Hulk do get a lot of grief from the public too, but for different reasons). If the X-Men were in a separate universe, then they could explore the issues of mutants being hated by society a little more closely without having to complicate things with the other superheroes being around and not being hated as much. On the other hand, if the X-Men were in a separate universe, then some of the characters who had strong ties with the other Marvel characters (Scarlett Witch and Quicksilver being related to Magneto and Rogue's relationship with Ms. Marvel) would have to be glossed over to separate the ties that the X-Men had with the other characters to make it work.

Well this theory is looking doubtful so unless has just become an Inhuman? Just announced: