BAD idea, Hank !!! ( ANXM 8 Spoilers )

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#1 Edited by Avenger85 (1816 posts) - - Show Bio

Hank must be regretting his little time-travel stunt now. Who expected Jean to start controlling ( Yes, CONTROLLING via brainwashing/mindwipe like Xavier did ) the team via her telepathy ? This seems like a start of a more ruthless, darker personality for Jean. She now has something in common with Current Scott's team. She might even join that team after mindreading Current Scott and what he's gone through. Seems like young Jean Grey is the new Emma Frost/ Bad Xavier ? The look of shock/fear on both the current and young X-Men teams in the last panel says it all.

Also, Little Scott really is becoming a badass leader now. The way he confronted Captain America and talked to him, shows that he's becoming the alpha male that he became in Whedon's run. This guy is going places, as he just grew a pair of BALLS. Logan, of all people is really IMPRESSED with him, that says it all. This issue shows why Cyke will always be a better leader than Jean, for the O5.

But since last issue/s final panel and this issue, I don't know where the relationship between young Scott and Jean will go. Maybe she will use her telepaty in a more aggressive way to help young Scott get stuff done ? Can't say wether that wedding invitation he gave her had a positive, or negative effect on it.

Bendis seems to be really twisting the characters here, making them alot different from their original versions. I have mixed feelings about this direction that he's going, TBH lol.

#2 Posted by Avenger85 (1816 posts) - - Show Bio

I also have to add, had Hank wanted to fix everything for REAL, and make sure Scott never went bonkers, he should simply have used the time machine to go back to the "Twelve" story, and not let Apocalypse merge with Cyclops. That would have solved ALOT of problems, and Cyclops would have still retained his sanity, team and marriage.

#3 Posted by DarkxSeraph (672 posts) - - Show Bio

Avenger- the problem with that is that it rewrites Marvel continuity immensely. Sure, it is the logical solution, but people really need to keep in mind what is feasible from a publisher/editor level.

Seriously.

#4 Edited by Avenger85 (1816 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkxSeraph: Yes i agree completely, but damn man, if you look at the mess Hank caused by getting the O5 here, I would not be surprised at all if we learned that bringing the O5 here somehow led to Ultron's victory and the AOU.

This issue was just hilarious, due to Hank's plan starting to backfire.

#5 Posted by Veitha (3314 posts) - - Show Bio

I've also thought that Jean Grey is very Emma Frost-ish... well, without the sense of humor, the revealing costumes and the murky past. But I really can't see her using her TP that way, maybe the Phoenix Force is coming back(I hope it's not returning)?? Or maybe it's just Bendis writing Jean as a young Emma Frost, and Emma as an old Jean Grey

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#6 Posted by Avenger85 (1816 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veitha: Yeah, but IMHO I just don't like it that way. No point in just having these 2 characters do a swap. It's a gimmick, that doesn't work in the long run.

I dunno how young Scott is gonna react to this new development, but if someone can set things right, it's him. This is the Scott I've been waiting to read about since the early 2000s...

#7 Posted by Veitha (3314 posts) - - Show Bio

@Avenger85 said:

@Veitha: Yeah, but IMHO I just don't like it that way. No point in just having these 2 characters do a swap. It's a gimmick, that doesn't work in the long run.

I dunno how young Scott is gonna react to this new development, but if someone can set things right, it's him. This is the Scott I've been waiting to read about since the early 2000s...

I agree. I hate the fact that he isn't writing Emma properly, she should be the Machiavellian one not Jean. Jean should be a strong character, but nice and gentle, especially with her teammates. He's writing the characters like they didn't have any kind of development before, like if they were new.

Scott is very cool, both adult Scott and young Scott are becoming cooler and cooler IMO.

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#8 Posted by Avenger85 (1816 posts) - - Show Bio

@Veitha: Young Scott proves that you don't lead by simple brainwashing. You lead by example. Look at the panel when Wolverine tells him " well done". All the X-Men are starting to respect the scrawny little bugger. Even Jean seems kinda swooning over him in the pic.

Hopefully there will be good times ahead for the poor bastard.

#9 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

"Bad Idea Hank" should be Beast's secondary codename.

#10 Posted by dangallant984 (1282 posts) - - Show Bio

@Avenger85 said:

Bendis seems to be really twisting the characters here, making them alot different from their original versions. I have mixed feelings about this direction that he's going, TBH lol.

@Avenger85: but they aren't the original characters, they're versions from a parallel universe; that's been established since the first issue.

#11 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@dangallant984: not to doubt you but can you cite the issue, page and panel?

#12 Posted by DarkxSeraph (672 posts) - - Show Bio

Eh... there was nothing stated that they were from a parallel universe. Heck, Bendis even was anal enough to weave the moment of their vanishing as springing from a particular issue of the original x-men run.

#13 Posted by Avenger85 (1816 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkxSeraph: Yes, the issue where Beast was chased by a mob, and arrived at the mansion quite pissed off & ready to quit, I think...

#14 Posted by Avenger85 (1816 posts) - - Show Bio

BTW I'm sure AgeOfHurricane is gonna LOVE reading this issue, LOL.

#15 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkxSeraph: Indeed. It would be utter an act of meaningless desperation were they not the actual group.

@Avenger85: Uncanny X-Men Issue #8, November 1964.

#16 Posted by fesak (7054 posts) - - Show Bio

In Marvel it's not possible to travel to the future in your own timeline.

To avoid creating a paradox, you'll always end up in a different reality from your own.

Moderator
#17 Edited by Avenger85 (1816 posts) - - Show Bio

@fesak: Yeah, but the changes you make still do affect your timeline a bit.

This one though, has been royally FUBAR'd by Beast, IMHO. Now I think bringing the O5 to the present was the biggest blunder committed by Beast...

#18 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@fesak: Not that I doubt that I was just looking for official confirmation of this phenomena in All New. Actually Marvel's entire reality is a giant continuity nightmare thus is already a paradox.

#19 Posted by dangallant984 (1282 posts) - - Show Bio

@dangallant984 said:

@Avenger85: but they aren't the original characters, they're versions from a parallel universe; that's been established since the first issue.

@chasereis said:

@dangallant984: not to doubt you but can you cite the issue, page and panel?

All new X-men #1, page 17, when Hank and Bobby storm into the den.

This Hank's speech is different than the speech that 616 Beast delivered in the X-men #8; similar, but different, so it must be a parallel universe.

#20 Posted by UltraBiel (328 posts) - - Show Bio

I would love to see Jean as a villain...became Black Queen on free will would be cool.

#21 Posted by GonnaRain (752 posts) - - Show Bio

The title explains perfectly how I feel after finishing issue #8... It was obvious Hank, and now you can see it for yourself, you screwed everything up and things will probably go downhill from here.

With this issue I now doubt that young!Cyke will switch sides and it seems more possible that it will end up being this new darker Jean.

#22 Edited by Havenless (1341 posts) - - Show Bio

@GonnaRain:

If young Jean and old Cyclops fall in love, I'm gonna flip. That would just totally destroy this solid book they've got going. To fix that mess would be impossible.

On a side note, if she does join Cyclops' 'Brotherhood', which original members go with her? I think Angel is so confused he could do just about anything and not shock us....

#23 Edited by GonnaRain (752 posts) - - Show Bio

@Havenless: If that happens I will just stare blankly at my wall, smile like a crazy man and then proceed to burn the book.

I believe the Cuckoos will go with them, specially since it will fill the Telepath spot that Emma left behind. Also probably Idie. At first I saw Quentin as a potential candidate, but now with all the President bs, and the new role he is "taking" as leader of the kids and whatnot, he will probably stay.

#24 Posted by Brazen_Intellect (1144 posts) - - Show Bio

Everyone knew this was a bad idea from the moment it was announced, please let this series end

#25 Posted by Avenger85 (1816 posts) - - Show Bio

Nah, I still believe young Scott is gonna help young Jean with her issues, and get back with her before leaving this timeline. That guy is becoming the old-school boyscout, that the original Jean fell in love with, so if anyone can bring her back to her old self, it's him.

Or else the repercussions on this timeline will be immense.

#26 Posted by SavageDragon (2252 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

"Bad Idea Hank" should be Beast's secondary codename.

So true.

or Facepalmbeast.

#27 Edited by Avenger85 (1816 posts) - - Show Bio

@GonnaRain: But look at it this way : If she joins Current Scott's team, and gives him the FULL mind-scan like she did Beast, she is gonna have a change of heart for real. There was waaaaay to much bias in Beast's mind, so she needs the whole picture. And then her interactions with Emma and Young Scott are gonna be nothing short of hilarious. And at least one onf the O5 are sure to join Scott. Not just from the JGS members, but it was specifically stated that it's gonna be one of the O5. Maybe more, but who knows.

#28 Posted by UltraBiel (328 posts) - - Show Bio

Has anyone here read last She-hulk ongoing? I wish the "time tribunal" that sued She-hulk for telling Hawkeye in the past he was gonna die, sued Beast too. I can't see how this could be a good idea!

#29 Posted by Madame_Mist (1325 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't wait till the O5 meet the Uncanny team. I would like to see a verses perhaps, because I think the O5 could seriously perhaps take 'em down. The only big threats on the Uncanny team seem to be Illyana and Scott.

#30 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

Why do I continue to live while this series is being published?

Is this Hell?

This must be Hell.

No wait, Hell would be more original.

This must be Hell by the Asylum.

#31 Posted by RustyRoy (12765 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't picked this up becoz I thought they were gonna make Scott look like a douche. Though I think interactions between young Scott and Emma will make interesting stories.

#32 Edited by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@dangallant984: Meaning since it is not verbatim it is parallel?

@FadeToBlackBolt: Geez man. Dramatis Personae today eh? Here "It will be ok". Feel better?

#33 Posted by GonnaRain (752 posts) - - Show Bio

@Avenger85: It's going to happen. She've read several X-Men minds so far (IIRC she read Storm's and Kitty's, no?) and it seems unlikely that she will return to her timeline without seeing everything about her future, about Scott, her relationship with Emma, and it's not like Scott will be the only one to blame for everything, since she herself wasn't a Saint most of the times. So, in the very bottom of my soul, I think she will kind of understand... I don't know.

But anyways, the only members I see joining Cyke's team are either Jean or Scott himself, Angel is more like a puppet of right now, Iceman a complete extra so far, and Hank won't leave his older self's side for sure, and anyways, the only two that will cause some kind of schock would be Jean or Scott.

#34 Posted by Queen's Halo (2431 posts) - - Show Bio

OK, is everyone aware everything that happens in this series is completely pointless? If you just paid attention and saw that the present day X-Men were surprised to see the past them meaning that when they will be eventually sent back they will have no memory of the events that happened. If they did, the past 50 years in comic book history would change at least. I doubt that Marvel will do that. So again - completely pointless.

#35 Posted by PhoenixoftheTides (3562 posts) - - Show Bio

@Avenger85 said:

Hank must be regretting his little time-travel stunt now. Who expected Jean to start controlling ( Yes, CONTROLLING via brainwashing/mindwipe like Xavier did ) the team via her telepathy ? This seems like a start of a more ruthless, darker personality for Jean. She now has something in common with Current Scott's team. She might even join that team after mindreading Current Scott and what he's gone through. Seems like young Jean Grey is the new Emma Frost/ Bad Xavier ? The look of shock/fear on both the current and young X-Men teams in the last panel says it all.

Also, Little Scott really is becoming a badass leader now. The way he confronted Captain America and talked to him, shows that he's becoming the alpha male that he became in Whedon's run. This guy is going places, as he just grew a pair of BALLS. Logan, of all people is really IMPRESSED with him, that says it all. This issue shows why Cyke will always be a better leader than Jean, for the O5.

But since last issue/s final panel and this issue, I don't know where the relationship between young Scott and Jean will go. Maybe she will use her telepaty in a more aggressive way to help young Scott get stuff done ? Can't say wether that wedding invitation he gave her had a positive, or negative effect on it.

Bendis seems to be really twisting the characters here, making them alot different from their original versions. I have mixed feelings about this direction that he's going, TBH lol.

@Veitha said:

I've also thought that Jean Grey is very Emma Frost-ish... well, without the sense of humor, the revealing costumes and the murky past. But I really can't see her using her TP that way, maybe the Phoenix Force is coming back(I hope it's not returning)?? Or maybe it's just Bendis writing Jean as a young Emma Frost, and Emma as an old Jean Grey

Yeah, I had mentioned in another thread that Jean had actually done this before: she had altered Kitty Pryde's mother and father's memories during the "Dark Phoenix Saga" and it was a sign to Ororo & Scott that she was becoming darker. Which is very interesting because Professor X used to do it all the time in the Original Team days and he did it again to Magneto years later, leading to the events of "Fatal Attractions".

To be honest, though, I always think of this as a logical endpoint for a telepath in the same way that characters with super senses use it to figure out what someone else's emotional state is or an empath would use their powers to calm down someone who is irrationally angry. I don't necessarily think modifying behavior is bad or dark - it's bad because it is very rarely by choice and is less effective than doing the same to a person who honestly wants help modifying their thoughts and behavior. Forcing someone to do something else or altering memories is actually a high level telepathic feat (most telepaths can only read or project thoughts), but characters who do something by their free will tend to make longer term changes than if a psychic forced them to do it. They can debate the morality of it all they want, but when you have mutants with larger scale powers who probably trigger larger scale damage because they use their powers in combat, I'm not convinced this is an evil or dark use of telepathy.

And the issue definitely shows why Cyclops is the best leader in the X-Men stable, IMO. Different characters bring different strengths, but Scott never took the shortcuts other X-squad leaders did, and he put in the work.

#36 Edited by CTG (229 posts) - - Show Bio

Just a little tidbit, I recently read an interview concerning WatXM, where it was said that we haven't seen the last of the interaction between Quire and Young Jean.

Her recent actions certainly seem right up Quire's alley.

#37 Posted by dangallant984 (1282 posts) - - Show Bio

@chasereis said:

@dangallant984: Meaning since it is not verbatim it is parallel?

exactly. It's not the same moment.

#38 Posted by IllyanaRasputin (1116 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm glad someone brought this topic up, I'm going to touch upon what I feel about the writing more or less with Jean & Emma. I totally agree with Veitha in the sense that Bendis is swapping character traits with Emma Frost and Jean Grey, however I see this as a natural chance for Jean Grey, where for Emma Frost I see this as a very wrong move. For Jean, she's been set in a world where her boyfriend (love of her life), has turned into the number one mutant terrorist, she's died, she's destroyed a world and murdered innocent people, and she's lost friends life right and centre. Let's not forget, Jean's only a teenager and she's confused, hurt, and wants to get to the bottom of how to fix the world she's living in and if anyone were to stand in her way with doing that she's going to take matters in her own hands. That being said, I do not agree that she had the power or knowledge to change Angel's thoughts so easily - she just received her powers and we've had no prior panels to her practicing on how to use them. I mean we know Rachel isn't training her... There has been no interaction with mother/daughter, Psylocke sure isn't because she's been hiatus from the school. That however only leaves our pink haired boy, Quentin. It would make sense if Quentin and her were getting closer and would make a lot more sense if she's acting out this way because she's been hanging out with him, that being said, it would be nice to see a development of their relationship spur if my theory is correct. As for her new character traits I definitely see the 21 year old Emma Frost in her when it comes to using her powers for personal gain, but then again almost every telepath we know in the comics use their powers for personal gain once in a while so I don't see the trouble in that, it's bound to happen one day in your life.

#39 Edited by Avenger85 (1816 posts) - - Show Bio

@CTG: Oh damn, I hope that is the last of their interaction !

I'd rather see her give young Scott a second chance at getting together than Quentin Quire. Scott needs to step up and take charge of his team ( and his girl ) like the real badass he is.

#40 Posted by DarkxSeraph (672 posts) - - Show Bio

@Gallant: "exactly. It's not the same moment."

I have to disagree. And I do so on the grounds that Hank would not have been nearly so somber about the fact that what he was doing was severly dangerous to space/time. If he was hoping to an alternate reality, there should have been no fear of ruining his own timeline (which was a concern shared by young hank).

The evidence in that regard, imo, voids your argument that it is an alternate earth due to lack of identical dialogue from the 60s book.

Avenger: I really hope you're not as sexist as the : "Scott needs to step up and take charge of his team ( and his girl ) like the real badass he is." implies. Jean doesn't 'belong' to him, and has never come off as a 'force me around emotionally because I need a man to take charge' woman. I actually hope, if nothing else, that young Scott get a hard lesson on that.

#41 Posted by Avenger85 (1816 posts) - - Show Bio

@PhoenixoftheTides: Yeah man, Scott was the man in this issue. Shows why he deserves to be THE leader of the X-Men.

@IllyanaRasputin: Oh please no. I really, really hope it's young Scott & Jean, not Quire.

#42 Edited by Avenger85 (1816 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkxSeraph: lol no man, I was not implying it that way. Sorry if it appeared sexist. I was just hoping that the younger versions of Scott & Jean can sort their differences out & get back. And Scott already got a hard lesson on that in ANXM #5.

#43 Posted by DarkxSeraph (672 posts) - - Show Bio

Cool.

#44 Edited by CTG (229 posts) - - Show Bio

Though I'm a huge fan of Cyclops/Jean, I don't mind the writers switching things up a bit. They've done it with Kitty/Iceman and now Colossus/Domino Since Cyclops and Emma are on the outs for now, I'd love to see an official Cyclops/Psylocke relationship get going.

#45 Posted by DarkxSeraph (672 posts) - - Show Bio

The one you blacked out makes me nauseated. Her and Logan were... just BA together.

#46 Edited by CTG (229 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkxSeraph said:

The one you blacked out makes me nauseated. Her and Logan were... just BA together.

As BA as it was, that's more of an arrangement than a relationship. Her and Colossus seem to be a legit budding relationship - especially since she told him he could just forget about it and he replied that he'd rather not. It brought a smile to her face.

#47 Posted by DarkxSeraph (672 posts) - - Show Bio

The type of character she is... arrangement is the closest to 'relationship' she should get. Not calling her a slut, but she has a very dangerous lifestyle and fast and edgy way of doingthings. That fits perfectly with Logan.

Honestly, the two of them were great with that sort of thing, and I think it fits both of them more than a serious 'I love you' relationship. They fit well with a 'I care about you, and if someone messes with you, let's f-them up!' And the other benefits that come with it.

#48 Edited by CTG (229 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkxSeraph: I think that's what's good about this new relationship. The characters are kinda evolving a bit. Does she seem like the type of girl he'd usually go for? Especially considering his ex? Not sure if you've read the pages, but it started more as a "blow off some steam" type thing, but ended up being a bit more. I think that her needing to convince him that the situation they were involved in didn't mean he had to carry so much guilt 24/7 allowed them both to see things from the other's perspective.

#49 Posted by Avenger85 (1816 posts) - - Show Bio

Y'know, I think it's time for Rachel to make her appearance.

The O5 and the JGS really have a ticking time-bomb amongst them now. And if there is anyone who can CONTROL and pacify a future Phoenix host, it's a former Phoenix host/telepath as strong as Rachel. A confrontation between them is bound to happen sometime soon. There's just no way the JGS would want a Dark Jean running amok like that.....

#50 Posted by Veitha (3314 posts) - - Show Bio

@PhoenixoftheTides said:

@Veitha said:

I've also thought that Jean Grey is very Emma Frost-ish... well, without the sense of humor, the revealing costumes and the murky past. But I really can't see her using her TP that way, maybe the Phoenix Force is coming back(I hope it's not returning)?? Or maybe it's just Bendis writing Jean as a young Emma Frost, and Emma as an old Jean Grey

Yeah, I had mentioned in another thread that Jean had actually done this before: she had altered Kitty Pryde's mother and father's memories during the "Dark Phoenix Saga" and it was a sign to Ororo & Scott that she was becoming darker. Which is very interesting because Professor X used to do it all the time in the Original Team days and he did it again to Magneto years later, leading to the events of "Fatal Attractions".

To be honest, though, I always think of this as a logical endpoint for a telepath in the same way that characters with super senses use it to figure out what someone else's emotional state is or an empath would use their powers to calm down someone who is irrationally angry. I don't necessarily think modifying behavior is bad or dark - it's bad because it is very rarely by choice and is less effective than doing the same to a person who honestly wants help modifying their thoughts and behavior. Forcing someone to do something else or altering memories is actually a high level telepathic feat (most telepaths can only read or project thoughts), but characters who do something by their free will tend to make longer term changes than if a psychic forced them to do it. They can debate the morality of it all they want, but when you have mutants with larger scale powers who probably trigger larger scale damage because they use their powers in combat, I'm not convinced this is an evil or dark use of telepathy.

And the issue definitely shows why Cyclops is the best leader in the X-Men stable, IMO. Different characters bring different strengths, but Scott never took the shortcuts other X-squad leaders did, and he put in the work.

I've got a bad feeling about this. Manipulating someone mind is not ethic IMO, but I don't say that I don't agree. Warren was a little out of his head, I would have changed his mind or calm him too, but I really can't see Jean doing such a thing. Emma would do that without remorse, Xavier too, but Jean wouldn't. I think that the fire bird or her Black Queen persona is coming back.

@IllyanaRasputin said:

I'm glad someone brought this topic up, I'm going to touch upon what I feel about the writing more or less with Jean & Emma. I totally agree with Veitha in the sense that Bendis is swapping character traits with Emma Frost and Jean Grey, however I see this as a natural chance for Jean Grey, where for Emma Frost I see this as a very wrong move. For Jean, she's been set in a world where her boyfriend (love of her life), has turned into the number one mutant terrorist, she's died, she's destroyed a world and murdered innocent people, and she's lost friends life right and centre. Let's not forget, Jean's only a teenager and she's confused, hurt, and wants to get to the bottom of how to fix the world she's living in and if anyone were to stand in her way with doing that she's going to take matters in her own hands. That being said, I do not agree that she had the power or knowledge to change Angel's thoughts so easily - she just received her powers and we've had no prior panels to her practicing on how to use them. I mean we know Rachel isn't training her... There has been no interaction with mother/daughter, Psylocke sure isn't because she's been hiatus from the school. That however only leaves our pink haired boy, Quentin. It would make sense if Quentin and her were getting closer and would make a lot more sense if she's acting out this way because she's been hanging out with him, that being said, it would be nice to see a development of their relationship spur if my theory is correct. As for her new character traits I definitely see the 21 year old Emma Frost in her when it comes to using her powers for personal gain, but then again almost every telepath we know in the comics use their powers for personal gain once in a while so I don't see the trouble in that, it's bound to happen one day in your life.

That's a good point, too. We've seen an example of learning using TP during Emma Frost's series. SHe spent years to learn how to manipulate someone's mind by her own, Jean's had her TP only for a few days, she shouldn't be able to do that so easily. The idea of her and Quentin working together is cool.

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