A message to the writers of X-men,X-force,X-whatever

#1 Posted by nonfiction91 (1704 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know if you secretly go to this site, I don't know if you even know CV exists but I am tired of you and need to vent

What is with knock offs of great characters? You give us a hippie angel in place of warren, which is just going to be a foreseeable drag.

You give us a nightcrawler without a penchant for the catholic church, so there no point to him what so ever, other than being another german asshole, which the marvel U just needs SO bad /sarcasm

You bring back Cable and he looks like red hulk if he was flesh colored, and give him an intense death only to have him just pop back up because you morons need a jumping off point to this no doubtedly useless x-men versus avengers fight, which just shows your pathetic attempt at boosting sales, like a 2 dollar whore that dyes her hair blue to draw more attention. Like we all don't see a lackluster ending coming filled with fights with no winners. and some minute change t the marvel U that you will dub "a change of immense proportions!" followed by cover art that depicts nothing going on in the story at hand, just to promote a movie-as your flogging masters at Disneyt command you. Casada might as well be on all fours in his draws with a horse reign in his mouth, with will eisner wagging a finger at him.

When are you guys going to stop drowning and start swimming? it's like watching wolverine in the ocean, you know he's gonna die, but the fact that wolverines drowning makes you think he might just deserve it.

its just cowardice! watching one of the big two get scared and throw whatever you can out of the deepest reaches of your cornhole because you are panicked over DC right now.

You guys are throwing out deadpool and wolverine titles like their candy corn on holloween, just to draw in the longtimers, which are slowly leaving you too!

My trollish point? WE can smell your FEAR! Stop being so WEAK! I can hear your hearts pounding in every damned panel you've put out since august and its just sickeningly pathetic

#2 Posted by MC_The_Strange (5 posts) - - Show Bio

Here, here!

#3 Posted by Shamelesslysupportinaznballers (553 posts) - - Show Bio

Didn't DC just do this for their entire universe?

#4 Posted by zombietag (1494 posts) - - Show Bio

um somebody here doesnt know much about the actual industry.

and ill say it before a thousand other people do: "if you don't like it, stop buying and reading it"

#5 Posted by John Valentine (16310 posts) - - Show Bio

Urgh, go away.

#6 Posted by karrob (4280 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow! You seem upset

#7 Posted by Video_Martian (5645 posts) - - Show Bio

Marvel screws with the X-Men the same way that DC screws with their entire universe.

#8 Posted by John Valentine (16310 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr.obvious said:

Marvel screws with the X-Men the same way that DC screws with their entire universe.

In both ways it's probably been beneficial.

#9 Posted by Pbott (210 posts) - - Show Bio

@nonfiction91 said:

I don't know if you secretly go to this site, I don't know if you even know CV exists but I am tired of you and need to vent

What is with knock offs of great characters? You give us a hippie angel in place of warren, which is just going to be a foreseeable drag.

You give us a nightcrawler without a penchant for the catholic church, so there no point to him what so ever, other than being another german asshole, which the marvel U just needs SO bad /sarcasm

You bring back Cable and he looks like red hulk if he was flesh colored, and give him an intense death only to have him just pop back up because you morons need a jumping off point to this no doubtedly useless x-men versus avengers fight, which just shows your pathetic attempt at boosting sales, like a 2 dollar whore that dyes her hair blue to draw more attention. Like we all don't see a lackluster ending coming filled with fights with no winners. and some minute change t the marvel U that you will dub "a change of immense proportions!" followed by cover art that depicts nothing going on in the story at hand, just to promote a movie-as your flogging masters at Disneyt command you. Casada might as well be on all fours in his draws with a horse reign in his mouth, with will eisner wagging a finger at him.

When are you guys going to stop drowning and start swimming? it's like watching wolverine in the ocean, you know he's gonna die, but the fact that wolverines drowning makes you think he might just deserve it.

its just cowardice! watching one of the big two get scared and throw whatever you can out of the deepest reaches of your cornhole because you are panicked over DC right now.

You guys are throwing out deadpool and wolverine titles like their candy corn on holloween, just to draw in the longtimers, which are slowly leaving you too!

My trollish point? WE can smell your FEAR! Stop being so WEAK! I can hear your hearts pounding in every damned panel you've put out since august and its just sickeningly pathetic

lol wow everyone read who wants a spot on example of comic fan who feels entitled to everything and has know idea how any industry works. First off calling anything a dumb knock off or dumb in any comic book is just stupid. technically everything is dumb in comic books, a guy in a bat suite is dumb, the whole idea of a group of people called x-men is stupid, and to call the new angel a drag?... we have only seen him in two issues give it some time, and you apparently have not been reading UXF or anything Remender has been reading because if you did you would know that anything he touches is gold. And you are right this whole cable thing does suck ( Because Loab is writing it), but you dont like it or anything else because marvel want to profit off it? Well last time i checked that's why comics and every other medium exists... TO MAKE money if they didnt there would be know comics because believe it or not Marvel is not made of people who just love working for free. So what should marvel do when they see character who sell well? oh ya well if we follow your logic they would decrease the number. I am not saying its bad to have an opinion, but what you are saying just defy s both logic and human nature.

#10 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33631 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow this went from some guy moaning about the X-Men to people moaning about the DC reboot, comic fans really are morons 

#11 Posted by cattlebattle (12830 posts) - - Show Bio

I love this OP 
 
I think its time to face facts, the X-Men died in about 2004...........R.I.P. X-Men

#12 Edited by _Zombie_ (10445 posts) - - Show Bio

@zombietag said:

um somebody here doesnt know much about the actual industry.

and ill say it before a thousand other people do: "if you don't like it, stop buying and reading it"

THIS. So much freaking this. Quit buying the damn books, and they'll stop making them. Until then, you have literally no right to complain.

Ignore it. Ignore it, and after awhile, if enough people follow suit, Marvel will feel the hurt, and they'll make changes.

@spiderbat87 said:

Wow this went from some guy moaning about the X-Men to people moaning about the DC reboot, comic fans really are morons

I'd be able to agree if you weren't speaking in annoyingly inaccurate generalizations.

#13 Posted by Daycrawler (554 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle said:

I love this OP I think its time to face facts, the X-Men died in about 2004...........R.I.P. X-Men

To you maybe, but that doesn't make it a fact. X-Factor? X-Force? Uncanny X-Force? Wolverine and the X-Men? Brubaker / Gillen Uncanny X-Men? Aaron Wolverine? Messiah Complex? Second Coming? Doesn't seem to me that the X-Men died in 2004. Sure, there's been some sh!t - Fraction, Necrosha, Vamps - but given the volume of X-books between 2004-present that's bound to happen. For me, the majority of it has been excellent. Schism and Regenesis in particular is taking things to a whole new level. When do you think the X-franchise was at it's strongest? Gotta say the opinions laid out by nonfiction91 aren't the most compelling evidence that the franchise is in trouble. The whole Angel and Nightcrawler situations are waaay to new to be able to properly comment on yet.

#14 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33631 posts) - - Show Bio
@ZombieBigfoot said:

@zombietag said:

um somebody here doesnt know much about the actual industry.

and ill say it before a thousand other people do: "if you don't like it, stop buying and reading it"

THIS. So much freaking this. Quit buying the damn books, and they'll stop making them. Until then, you have literally no right to complain.

Ignore it. Ignore it, and after awhile, if enough people follow suit, Marvel will feel the hurt, and they'll make changes.

@spiderbat87 said:

Wow this went from some guy moaning about the X-Men to people moaning about the DC reboot, comic fans really are morons

I'd be able to agree if you weren't speaking in annoyingly inaccurate generalizations.

well don't agree then.
#15 Posted by _Zombie_ (10445 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

@ZombieBigfoot said:

@zombietag said:

um somebody here doesnt know much about the actual industry.

and ill say it before a thousand other people do: "if you don't like it, stop buying and reading it"

THIS. So much freaking this. Quit buying the damn books, and they'll stop making them. Until then, you have literally no right to complain.

Ignore it. Ignore it, and after awhile, if enough people follow suit, Marvel will feel the hurt, and they'll make changes.

@spiderbat87 said:

Wow this went from some guy moaning about the X-Men to people moaning about the DC reboot, comic fans really are morons

I'd be able to agree if you weren't speaking in annoyingly inaccurate generalizations.

well don't agree then.

I fail to see how a few comic fans displaying something makes the fandom as a whole stupid.

#16 Posted by cattlebattle (12830 posts) - - Show Bio
@Daycrawler said:

@cattlebattle said:

I love this OP I think its time to face facts, the X-Men died in about 2004...........R.I.P. X-Men

To you maybe, but that doesn't make it a fact. X-Factor? X-Force? Uncanny X-Force? Wolverine and the X-Men? Brubaker / Gillen Uncanny X-Men? Aaron Wolverine? Messiah Complex? Second Coming? Doesn't seem to me that the X-Men died in 2004. Sure, there's been some sh!t - Fraction, Necrosha, Vamps - but given the volume of X-books between 2004-present that's bound to happen. For me, the majority of it has been excellent. Schism and Regenesis in particular is taking things to a whole new level. When do you think the X-franchise was at it's strongest? Gotta say the opinions laid out by nonfiction91 aren't the most compelling evidence that the franchise is in trouble. The whole Angel and Nightcrawler situations are waaay to new to be able to properly comment on yet.

It was at its strongest 1963- 2003. Ever since that its been questionable at best, I mean they were on an island for reasons that were kind of against their beliefs. Fighting dead characters (similar to a DC event that was happening simultaneously) Fighting Vampires (because Vampires are "in" I suppose). Then they really hit the wall so lets have the X-Men split into two groups, which is really nothing fresh being the X-men are always bickering and have had in fighting while their is several titles, They used to be Marvels number 1 attraction for a long time...not so much anymore
#17 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

lol

#18 Posted by Video_Martian (5645 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

Wow this went from some guy moaning about the X-Men to people moaning about the DC reboot, comic fans really are morons

We're NOT morons, we're just very nitpicky ;)

#19 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33631 posts) - - Show Bio
@ZombieBigfoot said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@ZombieBigfoot said:

@zombietag said:

um somebody here doesnt know much about the actual industry.

and ill say it before a thousand other people do: "if you don't like it, stop buying and reading it"

THIS. So much freaking this. Quit buying the damn books, and they'll stop making them. Until then, you have literally no right to complain.

Ignore it. Ignore it, and after awhile, if enough people follow suit, Marvel will feel the hurt, and they'll make changes.

@spiderbat87 said:

Wow this went from some guy moaning about the X-Men to people moaning about the DC reboot, comic fans really are morons

I'd be able to agree if you weren't speaking in annoyingly inaccurate generalizations.

well don't agree then.

I fail to see how a few comic fans displaying something makes the fandom as a whole stupid.

Well I'm not here to convince you otherwise. 
#20 Posted by Daycrawler (554 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle said:

@Daycrawler said:

@cattlebattle said:

I love this OP I think its time to face facts, the X-Men died in about 2004...........R.I.P. X-Men

To you maybe, but that doesn't make it a fact. X-Factor? X-Force? Uncanny X-Force? Wolverine and the X-Men? Brubaker / Gillen Uncanny X-Men? Aaron Wolverine? Messiah Complex? Second Coming? Doesn't seem to me that the X-Men died in 2004. Sure, there's been some sh!t - Fraction, Necrosha, Vamps - but given the volume of X-books between 2004-present that's bound to happen. For me, the majority of it has been excellent. Schism and Regenesis in particular is taking things to a whole new level. When do you think the X-franchise was at it's strongest? Gotta say the opinions laid out by nonfiction91 aren't the most compelling evidence that the franchise is in trouble. The whole Angel and Nightcrawler situations are waaay to new to be able to properly comment on yet.

It was at its strongest 1963- 2003. Ever since that its been questionable at best, I mean they were on an island for reasons that were kind of against their beliefs. Fighting dead characters (similar to a DC event that was happening simultaneously) Fighting Vampires (because Vampires are "in" I suppose). Then they really hit the wall so lets have the X-Men split into two groups, which is really nothing fresh being the X-men are always bickering and have had in fighting while their is several titles, They used to be Marvels number 1 attraction for a long time...not so much anymore

Man, I can remember a few crappy periods from 63 - 03! I recently read through Essential Wolverine (Hama stories from the 80's) and they're awful. Reeeeallly bad. Chuck Austen has been hugely derided for his work (though I admit to not having read his stuff) and even Claremont had some dodgy spells. Personally, I thought the weakest the franchise has been was 2000 - 2004. Sure, there was Morrisons awesome run, but there was a huge amount of material that ranged from mediocre (Claremont) to just plain terrible (Milligan). Even the art on Morrison's run of New X-Man was patchy and spoiled some great stories. The whole franchise lacked a direction and purpose then that it's regained since M-Day onwards. Can't comment on the 90's as I've yet to work my way through most of it. Just know that a lot of the art from back then makes my eyes bleed!

The fighting Vampires stuff has basically been a 6 part arc and then some annoying appearances by Vamp Jubilee. Necrosha was a smallish event. Agree both were horrible, but I don't think it signifies a franchise bereft of ideas and good stories when stacked up against the examples in my previous post. Also, I don't think them all retreating to Utopia goes against every X-Men's beliefs, some sure, but not all. It made perfect sense for them to abandon pursuing Xavier's dream with the amount of post M-Day troubles they were facing. My only problem with Utopia was that it went on too long before the split occurred. Split should have happened a lot sooner after Second Coming. I think the split and regenesis basically works off the fact that some X-Men want to return to Xavier's ideals whilst some don't. I think the split is a new twist on an old idea as this time it is a true ideological rift. To me, that gives us the best of both world (Xavier's dream back up and running, but so is Scott's take not sh!t isolationist stance) and opens up some great story telling opportunities.

#21 Posted by zombietag (1494 posts) - - Show Bio

okay i say this all the time but its something comic fans dont seem to understand. comics are a difficult industry to break into. you have to work hard, start from the bottom, and prove yourself over and over again to various groups of people including editors and fans.

why do i say this? because people who write or draw comics REALLY want to write or draw comics. they love comics. watch any interview on this website, i would 99% of the time its completely obvious that the writer or artist loves comics. theyve worked hard to do it for a living. that doesnt make comics good, but fans have got to stop acting like marvel puts out crap because they dont care about comics.

yes marvel and dc both put out some crap. it happens. but overall, i will say its impossible to say that they dont desire to put out quality comics.

and whys that? cuz they love comics AND quality comics sell. period. a lot of good comics get pushed aside unfortunately and dont do well, but for the comics that sell well and do well, i would say they are almost always good quality comics. again, not everytime but most of the time.

so marvel tries it both. to put out quality comics and to put out comics that sell. that makes sense. and yes, they are a company. more profit means theyre doing well and everyone is happier.

before you complain, try to put yourself in the creators / editors / publishers shoes and then reconsider.

#22 Posted by _Zombie_ (10445 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

@ZombieBigfoot said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@ZombieBigfoot said:

@zombietag said:

um somebody here doesnt know much about the actual industry.

and ill say it before a thousand other people do: "if you don't like it, stop buying and reading it"

THIS. So much freaking this. Quit buying the damn books, and they'll stop making them. Until then, you have literally no right to complain.

Ignore it. Ignore it, and after awhile, if enough people follow suit, Marvel will feel the hurt, and they'll make changes.

@spiderbat87 said:

Wow this went from some guy moaning about the X-Men to people moaning about the DC reboot, comic fans really are morons

I'd be able to agree if you weren't speaking in annoyingly inaccurate generalizations.

well don't agree then.

I fail to see how a few comic fans displaying something makes the fandom as a whole stupid.

Well I'm not here to convince you otherwise.

Fair enough. Least you admit to it.

#23 Edited by moywar700 (2775 posts) - - Show Bio

Do you really think marvel lurks around comic vine?

#24 Edited by nonfiction91 (1704 posts) - - Show Bio

@moywar700: nah I literally was just venting :P But I do think perhaps a few writers or artists visit on occasion, of course maybe I'm giving CV too much credit

did NOT expect so many people to reply, but I'm glad opinions are being made public

@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers said:

Didn't DC just do this for their entire universe?

yes, but arguably so. there is still a big schism of people that are in love with the old way and people who are enjoying the new way, either way, DC is working off of creativity, not nervousness and fear, and if you disagree with that we can at least come to the agreement that DC is showing a bit more backbone/courage when faced with the fear of losing customers.@mr.obvious said:

@spiderbat87 said:

Wow this went from some guy moaning about the X-Men to people moaning about the DC reboot, comic fans really are morons

We're NOT morons, we're just very nitpicky ;)

word

Also, I can't really stress this fact enough (especially to those of you who read the first sentence and then decided to write your own opinion based off of that) I don't like how every decision being made seems rash and not well thought thru, granted thats the beauty of comics, these quick decisions are like watching domino's fall, just one after the other, and seem to be inherently rooted in fear of the other of the big two, and not the growth of themselves

#25 Posted by cattlebattle (12830 posts) - - Show Bio
@Daycrawler said:

@cattlebattle said:

@Daycrawler said:

@cattlebattle said:


Man, I can remember a few crappy periods from 63 - 03! I recently read through Essential Wolverine (Hama stories from the 80's) and they're awful. Reeeeallly bad. Chuck Austen has been hugely derided for his work (though I admit to not having read his stuff) and even Claremont had some dodgy spells. Personally, I thought the weakest the franchise has been was 2000 - 2004. Sure, there was Morrisons awesome run, but there was a huge amount of material that ranged from mediocre (Claremont) to just plain terrible (Milligan). Even the art on Morrison's run of New X-Man was patchy and spoiled some great stories. The whole franchise lacked a direction and purpose then that it's regained since M-Day onwards. Can't comment on the 90's as I've yet to work my way through most of it. Just know that a lot of the art from back then makes my eyes bleed!

The fighting Vampires stuff has basically been a 6 part arc and then some annoying appearances by Vamp Jubilee. Necrosha was a smallish event. Agree both were horrible, but I don't think it signifies a franchise bereft of ideas and good stories when stacked up against the examples in my previous post. Also, I don't think them all retreating to Utopia goes against every X-Men's beliefs, some sure, but not all. It made perfect sense for them to abandon pursuing Xavier's dream with the amount of post M-Day troubles they were facing. My only problem with Utopia was that it went on too long before the split occurred. Split should have happened a lot sooner after Second Coming. I think the split and regenesis basically works off the fact that some X-Men want to return to Xavier's ideals whilst some don't. I think the split is a new twist on an old idea as this time it is a true ideological rift. To me, that gives us the best of both world (Xavier's dream back up and running, but so is Scott's take not sh!t isolationist stance) and opens up some great story telling opportunities.

Well I agree, when I say the X-men were strongest between 63-04 I don't mean every bit of it was shakespeare, I just mean it was generally a good title and didn't feel "forced" or as if they were trying to hard. It just flowed. Now of days it feels like they just launch story arcs and create new characters left and right, I mean there is like 12 new X-men a year and there is characters like Rockslide who have been around for about a decade and still has had the development of a shoe. Everything just feels random and anti climactic
 
I still think the whole Utopia idea was stupid, I mean the X-Men have always been about integration, they retreat to an island..where they might as well paint a target on it for their enemies, and separate themselves from society. Made no sense to me. 
 
I also agree that Schism opened up some good potential stories, but once again..they screwed themselves, they have like 8 different titles with 50 characters...its too much to keep track of or care about
#26 Posted by movieartman (1265 posts) - - Show Bio

Just So where clear this entire post has been made irelivent by the fact that UNCANNY X-FORCE THE DARK ANGEL SAGA IS ONE OF THE BEST X RELATED STORYS EVER!

#27 Edited by nonfiction91 (1704 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle said:

@Daycrawler said:

@cattlebattle said:

@Daycrawler said:

@cattlebattle said:

Man, I can remember a few crappy periods from 63 - 03! I recently read through Essential Wolverine (Hama stories from the 80's) and they're awful. Reeeeallly bad. Chuck Austen has been hugely derided for his work (though I admit to not having read his stuff) and even Claremont had some dodgy spells. Personally, I thought the weakest the franchise has been was 2000 - 2004. Sure, there was Morrisons awesome run, but there was a huge amount of material that ranged from mediocre (Claremont) to just plain terrible (Milligan). Even the art on Morrison's run of New X-Man was patchy and spoiled some great stories. The whole franchise lacked a direction and purpose then that it's regained since M-Day onwards. Can't comment on the 90's as I've yet to work my way through most of it. Just know that a lot of the art from back then makes my eyes bleed!

The fighting Vampires stuff has basically been a 6 part arc and then some annoying appearances by Vamp Jubilee. Necrosha was a smallish event. Agree both were horrible, but I don't think it signifies a franchise bereft of ideas and good stories when stacked up against the examples in my previous post. Also, I don't think them all retreating to Utopia goes against every X-Men's beliefs, some sure, but not all. It made perfect sense for them to abandon pursuing Xavier's dream with the amount of post M-Day troubles they were facing. My only problem with Utopia was that it went on too long before the split occurred. Split should have happened a lot sooner after Second Coming. I think the split and regenesis basically works off the fact that some X-Men want to return to Xavier's ideals whilst some don't. I think the split is a new twist on an old idea as this time it is a true ideological rift. To me, that gives us the best of both world (Xavier's dream back up and running, but so is Scott's take not sh!t isolationist stance) and opens up some great story telling opportunities.

Well I agree, when I say the X-men were strongest between 63-04 I don't mean every bit of it was shakespeare, I just mean it was generally a good title and didn't feel "forced" or as if they were trying to hard. It just flowed. Now of days it feels like they just launch story arcs and create new characters left and right, I mean there is like 12 new X-men a year and there is characters like Rockslide who have been around for about a decade and still has had the development of a shoe. Everything just feels random and anti climactic I still think the whole Utopia idea was stupid, I mean the X-Men have always been about integration, they retreat to an island..where they might as well paint a target on it for their enemies, and separate themselves from society. Made no sense to me. I also agree that Schism opened up some good potential stories, but once again..they screwed themselves, they have like 8 different titles with 50 characters...its too much to keep track of or care about

I somewhat agree, they are all over the place, and it doesnt do the characters, the arc, or the company justice. But utopia was a good choice, only because it gave fans the chance to say exactly what you did,why? Thats what I think mainly led to schism, people wondering what made Utopia an x-men releveant choice other than including the x-men themselves. Rockslide, there's a guy with massive potential I think they'll be exploring more so in depth with wolverine and the x-men. That was the entire point really I think, to have a story that sticks with the old styling of cyclops leading a warrior fight in the war for equality, or at least a war for acknowledgment and the school, which shows the growth of characters over time and the expansion of their abilities as well as personalities.@movieartman said:

Just So where clear this entire post has been made irelivent by the fact that UNCANNY X-FORCE THE DARK ANGEL SAGA IS ONE OF THE BEST X RELATED STORYS EVER!

mmmm....I agree it was one of the best in a while, but it doesnt make my point mute. I appreciate that having angel be mind wiped and reborn was better than an anti-climactic ok I'm better now, but it is a waste of time have to build on a character cemented into fandom. There is plenty of room for others, but now we have to watch the slowly gradual and most likely two year long reemergence of an already established character, which is just a waste of time, and is just easier rather than better, it comes down to laziness.

my point? they sacrificed a great fresh beginning with a great,albeit phoenix mimicked, ending

#28 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle said:

I love this OP I think its time to face facts, the X-Men died in about 2004...........R.I.P. X-Men

Nah. It died in 2008.

When Whedon was done, I was done. RIP my sweet X-Men. Maybe someday you'll make an uncanny comeback.

#29 Posted by jubilee042 (1353 posts) - - Show Bio

u seem upset

#30 Posted by Sir_Deadpool (461 posts) - - Show Bio

for me personally this is a great X-Men time we have now. It is interesting with the new Teams. Uncanny X-Force is maybe the greatest ongoing title in the whole Marvel Universe. Remender is great

and jason Aaron is also doing great things here. I cant say any negative things about what happens to the X-Men right now!

#31 Posted by Shamelesslysupportinaznballers (553 posts) - - Show Bio

@nonfiction91:

Maybe it's because you care more about the X-Universe so you are more passionate about it but whatever Marvel is doing, they are doing it to their entire universe and DC has been doing it and is doing it right now but more drastically. You complain about the change in character to Warren & bringing in Nightcrawler, what about all the different Robins & Batgirl incarnations we have had over the years? You're pissed that Cable looks like Rulk (probably because of the artist) but what about Superman and his armor? That's not Superman!!!! Superman doesn't need armor, arggghhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!

I don't mean to turn this into a pissing match on who does what better between DC & Marvel, but w/o these same changes and evolution in character, we wouldn't have Archangel or Oracle. Oh wait...damn.......

and i disagree completely about DC working off of creativity, not nervousness and fear. It's pretty easy to just wipe the slate clean and start over. I give them guts and balls to basically say what they had was a mess so they want to start over but if they wanted to be creative, they could've handled this transition a bit better than they have. They also wouldn't have done something like this if they felt like they were behind Marvel, which they were, and needed to do something drastic to bring in new readers. Smells a bit of nervousness and fear to me. Between the big 2, I think Marvel has the creativity down w/the Ultimates line.

#32 Posted by Video_Martian (5645 posts) - - Show Bio

The only good X-Men comic nowadays is Uncanny X-Force, imo

#33 Posted by Powerzone789 (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr.obvious said:

The only good X-Men comic nowadays is Uncanny X-Force, imo

This

#34 Posted by TheCheeseStabber (8116 posts) - - Show Bio

@moywar700: Marvels a creeper x3

#35 Posted by Daycrawler (554 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle said:

@Daycrawler said:

@cattlebattle said:

@Daycrawler said:

@cattlebattle said:

Man, I can remember a few crappy periods from 63 - 03! I recently read through Essential Wolverine (Hama stories from the 80's) and they're awful. Reeeeallly bad. Chuck Austen has been hugely derided for his work (though I admit to not having read his stuff) and even Claremont had some dodgy spells. Personally, I thought the weakest the franchise has been was 2000 - 2004. Sure, there was Morrisons awesome run, but there was a huge amount of material that ranged from mediocre (Claremont) to just plain terrible (Milligan). Even the art on Morrison's run of New X-Man was patchy and spoiled some great stories. The whole franchise lacked a direction and purpose then that it's regained since M-Day onwards. Can't comment on the 90's as I've yet to work my way through most of it. Just know that a lot of the art from back then makes my eyes bleed!

The fighting Vampires stuff has basically been a 6 part arc and then some annoying appearances by Vamp Jubilee. Necrosha was a smallish event. Agree both were horrible, but I don't think it signifies a franchise bereft of ideas and good stories when stacked up against the examples in my previous post. Also, I don't think them all retreating to Utopia goes against every X-Men's beliefs, some sure, but not all. It made perfect sense for them to abandon pursuing Xavier's dream with the amount of post M-Day troubles they were facing. My only problem with Utopia was that it went on too long before the split occurred. Split should have happened a lot sooner after Second Coming. I think the split and regenesis basically works off the fact that some X-Men want to return to Xavier's ideals whilst some don't. I think the split is a new twist on an old idea as this time it is a true ideological rift. To me, that gives us the best of both world (Xavier's dream back up and running, but so is Scott's take not sh!t isolationist stance) and opens up some great story telling opportunities.

Well I agree, when I say the X-men were strongest between 63-04 I don't mean every bit of it was shakespeare, I just mean it was generally a good title and didn't feel "forced" or as if they were trying to hard. It just flowed. Now of days it feels like they just launch story arcs and create new characters left and right, I mean there is like 12 new X-men a year and there is characters like Rockslide who have been around for about a decade and still has had the development of a shoe. Everything just feels random and anti climactic I still think the whole Utopia idea was stupid, I mean the X-Men have always been about integration, they retreat to an island..where they might as well paint a target on it for their enemies, and separate themselves from society. Made no sense to me. I also agree that Schism opened up some good potential stories, but once again..they screwed themselves, they have like 8 different titles with 50 characters...its too much to keep track of or care about

Utopia made sense to me initially, when the strategy was "F**k off Osborn" and they basically circled their wagons and said come at us and we'll hit back with everything we have. Like I said though, I thought they used that idea for too long though and the schism should have happened sooner than it did (basically after Second Coming). Utopia has it's plus and minus points I guess (strength in numbers = a plus, easy target = minus) and this is at least being reflected given that half the people have now left.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree about the strength or lack thereof with regards to plots and direction. I have thought the overall the storylines have been great and the plotting and sense of purpose the best it's been since the 80's. Guess the radical changes aren't everyones cup of tea though. :)

Do agree with you that there's a vast amount of underused characters. Really bugged me in the past as there were enough titles out there to give more people a chance to shine. I'm hoping that all the Schism/Regenesis stuff sorts that issue out. Have to say though, if all the popular characters are to be given a chance to shine then your probably going to need all the titles out there!

#36 Posted by cattlebattle (12830 posts) - - Show Bio
@Daycrawler said:

@cattlebattle said:


Do agree with you that there's a vast amount of underused characters. Really bugged me in the past as there were enough titles out there to give more people a chance to shine. I'm hoping that all the Schism/Regenesis stuff sorts that issue out. Have to say though, if all the popular characters are to be given a chance to shine then your probably going to need all the titles out there!

Thats the thing though, they have all these characters floating around all these titles and they primarily focus on the ones that are already substantial 
#37 Posted by Toddmasters (11 posts) - - Show Bio
@cattlebattle said:
@Daycrawler said:

@cattlebattle said:


Do agree with you that there's a vast amount of underused characters. Really bugged me in the past as there were enough titles out there to give more people a chance to shine. I'm hoping that all the Schism/Regenesis stuff sorts that issue out. Have to say though, if all the popular characters are to be given a chance to shine then your probably going to need all the titles out there!

Thats the thing though, they have all these characters floating around all these titles and they primarily focus on the ones that are already substantial 
I would suggest reading X-Factor and New Mutants if you would like the spotlight shined on some secondary characters, also Wolverine and X-men is doing pretty good at introducing new characters as well. 
#38 Posted by lorex (955 posts) - - Show Bio

The problem with Marvel and their use of the X-Men is back in the 90's when they crushed DC the X-Men were a large part of that success. Come forward a few decades now and the powers that be seem to only remember that Wolverine was part of that success 
and instead of focussing on character development and story the Marvel and the industry at large seems focused on writing for events and 4-5 issus mini arcs geared to the trade paperback market. While I still think th Schism and the follow up Regenesis was 
completely crap and unnecessary the initial signs of more focus on a broader based character development is welcomed. Unfortunately with news the Avengers vs X-Men story line coming soon I think the constant writing for events will continue which is a shame 
because the X-Men comics are in despirate need of better story telling instead of stunts/events which forces the attention back on  the leading characters, reducing the amount of attention paid to lesser used characters, reinforcing the event mentality. Also until 
Marvel/DIsney manages to regain control of of the X-Men movie rights I suspect the X-Men will be getting the short end of the editorial stick.

#39 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5894 posts) - - Show Bio

@lorex said:

The problem with Marvel and their use of the X-Men is back in the 90's when they crushed DC the X-Men were a large part of that success. Come forward a few decades now and the powers that be seem to only remember that Wolverine was part of that success and instead of focussing on character development and story the Marvel and the industry at large seems focused on writing for events and 4-5 issus mini arcs geared to the trade paperback market. While I still think th Schism and the follow up Regenesis was completely crap and unnecessary the initial signs of more focus on a broader based character development is welcomed. Unfortunately with news the Avengers vs X-Men story line coming soon I think the constant writing for events will continue which is a shame because the X-Men comics are in despirate need of better story telling instead of stunts/events which forces the attention back on the leading characters, reducing the amount of attention paid to lesser used characters, reinforcing the event mentality. Also until Marvel/DIsney manages to regain control of of the X-Men movie rights I suspect the X-Men will be getting the short end of the editorial stick.

I agree with all this! I think that while Schism did offer a chance for lesser known characters to get noticed, there's still the issue with the events and how they play into the storylines. If Marvel keeps on putting out more events for the X-Men, then the stories might never get developed further enough to either wrap up the story or expand more on the characters' backgrounds. If Marvel just lay off the events for awhile, then we would be able to have more character developments happen and more plot developments for the characters.

#40 Posted by Daycrawler (554 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle said:

@Daycrawler said:

@cattlebattle said:

Do agree with you that there's a vast amount of underused characters. Really bugged me in the past as there were enough titles out there to give more people a chance to shine. I'm hoping that all the Schism/Regenesis stuff sorts that issue out. Have to say though, if all the popular characters are to be given a chance to shine then your probably going to need all the titles out there!

Thats the thing though, they have all these characters floating around all these titles and they primarily focus on the ones that are already substantial

Very true. Thought Fraction was worst for this on Uncanny with his fanatical obsession with Scott, Emma and Namor, and hardly anyone else. Just read new issues of Legacy and WATXM and at least some of the New X-Men like Anole, Bling, Match, Mercury, etc are getting some face time. Fingers crossed this is expanded on. Iceman, Rachel, Cannonball, Husk and Beast seem to be back in focus again too which is good (And they're finally doing some interesting stuff again with Iceman's power).

#41 Posted by Daycrawler (554 posts) - - Show Bio

@Toddmasters said:

@cattlebattle said:
@Daycrawler said:

@cattlebattle said:

Do agree with you that there's a vast amount of underused characters. Really bugged me in the past as there were enough titles out there to give more people a chance to shine. I'm hoping that all the Schism/Regenesis stuff sorts that issue out. Have to say though, if all the popular characters are to be given a chance to shine then your probably going to need all the titles out there!

Thats the thing though, they have all these characters floating around all these titles and they primarily focus on the ones that are already substantial
I would suggest reading X-Factor and New Mutants if you would like the spotlight shined on some secondary characters, also Wolverine and X-men is doing pretty good at introducing new characters as well.

Just recently got into X-Factor actually and its awesome. Currently working my way through the trades now and I can't read them fast enough. Loving WATXM to, much to my surprise. Been reading New Mutants as well, but honestly not getting into it as much as I thought I would. Can't place it, but something is just missing from the title for me.

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