Why is mutant extinction a big deal?

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#1 Posted by ozeol (504 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyclops motives for the past couple of years have been mainly to ensure the survival of the mutant species. I always thought this a bit strange because in my mind there is no difference between mutants and humans with powers. So what if loads of people lost their powers? They didn't die because of it.

I'm sure if the Avengers lost their powers Captain America wouldn't move everyone to an island and try and create a separate nation etc.

Maybe its Xavier's fault: he should've taught Cyclops (and the others) to think of himself as human instead of a part of a separate species. Maybe the peaceful coexistence between humans and mutants would firstly need the x-men to not draw a line between the two.

#2 Posted by GillaDro (236 posts) - - Show Bio

It's mutant kind isn't it?

#3 Posted by ozeol (504 posts) - - Show Bio

@GillaDro: yup

#4 Posted by John Valentine (16296 posts) - - Show Bio

Silly.

#5 Posted by maesterwar (28 posts) - - Show Bio

I see what you are saying. I always though of mutants as the next evolutionary step of humanity. I mean it would seem logical to anyone residing in that world. Hatred for mutants I always thought stemmed from jealousy. Who wouldn't be jealous of the guy who could bench press a Buick or shoot lasers from his eye. Yes I can see the dangers of some massive mutant abilities, but,wouldn't they be equally as dangerous to mutants and humans alike?Unless you are invulnerable.If mutants were real and I didn't have a cool power I know I would be jealous as hell. Doesn't mean I would want to make them extinct. Cyclops leadership decisions are questionable. Why take your people and separate them from humanity, why try to differentiate yourself.Wouldn't that make you and easier target and a greater source of concern.With human and civil right movements that should have existed you would think they wouldn't want to be seen as different as some people don't want to be seen by the color of their skin or sexuality. I don't necessarily see mutant extinction as a big deal cause they are the next step and even if someone tries to eliminate all of the mutants as time shows they will be a resurgence again.

#6 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32862 posts) - - Show Bio

Beacuse mutants ARE a separate race, it would be like if all black pepole woke up white or vice versa

#7 Posted by Backflip (2256 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice to see you don't think genocide is a big deal ;)

#8 Edited by ozeol (504 posts) - - Show Bio

@Backflip: I meant it in the context of the mutant decimation, you know the comic book event? Mutants lost their powers but only a few actually died (like the guy who was exploring the inside of a volcano)

Thats the thing I don't see it as a species becoming extinct, its just that there are no more humans born with powers.

#9 Posted by Backflip (2256 posts) - - Show Bio

@ozeol said:

@Backflip: I meant it in the context of the mutant decimation, you know the comic book event? Mutants lost their powers but only a few actually died (like the guy who was exploring the inside of a volcano)

Thats the thing I don't see it as a species becoming extinct, its just that there are no more humans born with powers.

Well then you're missing out everything that happened inbetween decimation and Utopia. Like Stryker's attack, or The Government placing the X-Men under house arrest with Sentinels to 'protect them'. It's not like Cyclops just became militant over night.

#10 Posted by ozeol (504 posts) - - Show Bio

@Backflip: fair point

#11 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

Shouldn't the goal of "mutantkind" have been to integrate with everyone else? You'd think the X-Men would have been better off marrying non-mutants, procreating, etc.

Instead of a goal of showing "Hey, we have the same struggles and goals as anyone else" the X-Men decided to keep further segregating themselves from the rest of humanity and showing up only to blow things up.

#12 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crash_Recovery:

Replace mutant with Black and you'll see how messed up that logic is.

Also mutants did die, in poorer countries some mutants banded together to protect their towns and villages and they got slaughtered when they lost their powers.

Known mutants who didn't go to utopia were often murdered.

#13 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCrowbar: You're obviously focusing on the last 5 years of X-Men continuity specifically. Also, you can't replace one word with another, because it's not the same thing.

The X-Men live in a world where the Avengers are heroes. The difference between a hero whose powers are "Marvel accident" derived and gifted by genetics at birth are inconsequential.

Pulling away from society and becoming increasingly secretive, while at the same time pulling black-ops murders across the world don't do much to build a lot of public sympathy.

#14 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCrowbar: @Jonny_Anonymous:

sorry to tell you guys but Black, White, etc... aren't different races. Humankind is to early in the evolutionary ladder to actually have differentiating races among itself.

I think the OP has a point when he says Cyclops makes a big deal out of it. In a more rational point of view, mutants are the next step and so, can't be threatened. They should have just let time pass by and live among humans, because humans are the ones that in few years, with the increase of mutants and meta humans, will disappear, wether they want or not. The only chance regular humans have of not disappearing is either preserveing their culture and civilization through mutants and meta-humans, which would mean that basically it's just humans with powers (no big difference) or, just like that guy (Vargas - he said he was the "homo superior superior" ) evolve themselves into something else, which would still not be human, it would be just like the mutants, an off shoot, but it would be closer.

IN conclusion, for mutants to exist it doesn't mean humans have to disappear. No one has to, and if we think about it, what makes us human is more than just a bunch of genes and chromossomes.

Just like in our society, the problem is not that some people are different, the problem is that some people differentiate, see others as different just because of something the others have that they don't, that makes no difference in wether they act human or not towards others.

#15 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

Well said

#16 Posted by JediXMan (29663 posts) - - Show Bio

@Backflip said:

@ozeol said:

@Backflip: I meant it in the context of the mutant decimation, you know the comic book event? Mutants lost their powers but only a few actually died (like the guy who was exploring the inside of a volcano)

Thats the thing I don't see it as a species becoming extinct, its just that there are no more humans born with powers.

Well then you're missing out everything that happened inbetween decimation and Utopia. Like Stryker's attack, or The Government placing the X-Men under house arrest with Sentinels to 'protect them'. It's not like Cyclops just became militant over night.

This is actually why I kind of like Cyclops' attitude. I haven't read AvX yet, but Cyclops has been acting darker and more military for years now, especially with X-Force. I'm okay with that; it had been built up over many years of trials and, essentially, warfare until Scott just had enough.

#17 Posted by nickthedevil (11622 posts) - - Show Bio

X-men just need to stop b*tching

#18 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32862 posts) - - Show Bio
@Jorgevy: There is no increase in Mutants, they are decreasing 
#19 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

Mutants are decreasing, in part, due to their own seeming insistence on genetic purity.

Mutants are just humans, like you or me, but with an altered chromosome, whether they're the "next step in human evolution" as shown in the 616 or creations in a lab as shown in the Ultimate U, they're ultimately as human as any of us.

Rather than integrate, they've chosen to segregate from the rest of mankind and make a bigger and easier target of themselves.

Were Cyclops to move in next door to you, marry a dental hygienist and have two kids, he'd be doing more to help Mutants than blowing crap up.

#20 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jorgevy: That's cute. They are different races in the sociological definition which is defined by " Each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics."

Source: https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_nf=1&tok=2sRvQ_mGw2We-zpfsMrSOQ&cp=11&gs_id=4&xhr=t&q=define+race&pf=p&safe=off&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=define+race&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=f3803001d38086d7&biw=1517&bih=741

@Crash_Recovery: I'm pretty sure Sentinels existed before 2006. Those were government sanctioned killing machines specifically designed to hunt mutants. The entire basis of the mutants is to be a symbol of the black struggle for equality in the 1960's.

#21 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

The basis of the X-Men was the civil rights movement. Sentinels have also been around for a while..but all of what you just said acts as if the X-Men have never...evolved.

The X-Men, in the past few decades, have reached levels of acceptance and legitimacy that they didn't have previously. For the most part, they're "out", and people accept the likes of Wolverine and Beast (and more) as Avengers.

Yes, there are those who seek to kill Mutants, but the X-Men pull away rather than taking advantage of their superhuman allies, government connections (SHIELD, SWORD, etc) and so on.

For a group concerned with survival, grouping together in a small, easily attackable landmass, seems like a poor idea. Way to put all of your eggs in one basket.

#22 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crash_Recovery:

Yet countries are still buying sentinels like hotcakes.

The Avengers invaded Utopia.

Norman Osborn hunted them down.

In the 80's there was God Loves, Man Kills.

There was the "Fall of The Mutants" in 1988, government based discrimination against Mutants.

There's the entire Genosha enslavements of the '90s

Operation Zero Tolerance.

That was the last 30 years. Mutants aren't widely accepted, you have a few token mutants on the Avengers sure. But that's all they are, tokens.

#23 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jonny_Anonymous: what Crash said, but also, by being the next step, eventually, other mutants will appear even if the ones right now don't reproduce. Even if they aren't the exact same mutants, evolution keeps happening.

@TheCrowbar: not cute at all. One of the major causes of racism is when those kinds of definitions are used an thrown around even though they are incorrect and have a much better and proper name to use instead - Ethnies

#24 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jorgevy: Google disagrees with you.

#25 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCrowbar: Scholars disagree with google (or better yet, Wikipedia), so... I think Im good

#26 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

I think this is probably a matter of interpretation.

Like how some people say "Batman's a loner" and others say "Batman operates with a team".

The reality is that Batman does both.

The reality with the X-Men is that they're hunted. It's also true that they're accepted, and some have reached very high levels of status and acceptance.

#27 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jorgevy: I find it disturbing you think Wikipedia is better than Scholars. Also you've yet to source said scholars, you've only given opinions. The definitions given by google are peer reviewed. You may not like that race is defined that way, but it is. You want to call it ethnicity, fine, but then you'd need to prove mutants have similar or a share cultural history.

#28 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCrowbar said:

@Jorgevy: I find it disturbing you think Wikipedia is better than Scholars. Also you've yet to source said scholars, you've only given opinions. The definitions given by google are peer reviewed. You may not like that race is defined that way, but it is. You want to call it ethnicity, fine, but then you'd need to prove mutants have similar or a share cultural history.

great, Im ending this conversation here, since you just said I said Wikipedia is better than scholars (go re read it, please, you need to) and you said I need to reference said scholars, which I don't because if you 1) knew how to google, you'd find every reason why saying the human species has different races is wrong or 2) had actual biology classes in a school that doesn't feed the "race theory" idiocy

also, what? what? seriously. what does mutants have to do with ethnicities and cultural history? everyone here agrees mutants are a different race, a sub species, an off shoot of humans. The thing is, in a psychological or philosophical perspective, one can argument they are just as humans as anyone else, despite different genetics.

So, go search some anthropology and biology stuff; human evolution etc... and instead of treating everyone as different races, just see different individuals from different backgrounds.

PS: Hope you read everything nicely this time and don't, once again, distort everything I say

#29 Posted by Kairan1979 (16711 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, there are those who seek to kill Mutants, but the X-Men pull away rather than taking advantage of their superhuman allies, government connections (SHIELD, SWORD, etc) and so on.

These allies seems to turn blind eye on mutant haters. I don't remember Avengers going after Purifiers, or the government branding Purifiers as terrorists and opening manhunt on them. So Cyclop was forced to deal with genocidal religious zealots the only way he could - forming mutant death squad.
#30 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

You confused the word species and race. And I'm the bad guy? Oookay

@Jorgevy:

sorry to tell you guys but Black, White, etc... aren't different races. Humankind is to early in the evolutionary ladder to actually have differentiating races among itself.
#31 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

It's funny to see a thread about hatred over diferences move in that direction. has the right idea, I'm bowing out of this.

#32 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCrowbar: races = sub-species

human's sub species is: Homo Sapiens Sapiens, it's the same for everyone, even wikipedia says that.

@Crash_Recovery: thanks :D

#33 Posted by guttridgeb (4831 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

Beacuse mutants ARE a separate race, it would be like if all black pepole woke up white or vice versa
#34 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jorgevy said:

@TheCrowbar: races = sub-species

human's sub species is: Homo Sapiens Sapiens, it's the same for everyone, even wikipedia says that.

@Crash_Recovery: thanks :D

Okay, you don't see how that contradictory to your previous statement? What makes a race a subspecies?

"Organisms that belong to different subspecies of the same species are capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring, but they often do not interbreed in nature due to geographic isolationor other factors."

Blacks are a subspecies(so are whites before you get all hot). Interbreeding between the races of men didn't begin until mass travel was a viable option, even then it wasn't done on any mass scale. We overcame natural factors to allow that to happen.

Mutants are a race.

#35 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCrowbar: wow, blacks are a subs species? whites a sub species? yeah, Im done talking here, you certainly don't know what you are talking about. I already said, sub species is Homo Sapiens Sapiens, and species is Homo Sapiens. If you don't even know that, I feel sorry for anyone who goes to whatever school you went (or maybe it wasn't the school's fault, so, in that case, it's okay)

#36 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@ozeol said:

Cyclops motives for the past couple of years have been mainly to ensure the survival of the mutant species. I always thought this a bit strange because in my mind there is no difference between mutants and humans with powers. So what if loads of people lost their powers? They didn't die because of it.

I'm sure if the Avengers lost their powers Captain America wouldn't move everyone to an island and try and create a separate nation etc.

Maybe its Xavier's fault: he should've taught Cyclops (and the others) to think of himself as human instead of a part of a separate species. Maybe the peaceful coexistence between humans and mutants would firstly need the x-men to not draw a line between the two.

I have to agree. I don't see why the twilight of the mutants matters. Sure, he should work to return the mutant abilities to those who want them back, but if no more mutants are born going forward, so what?

#37 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

Oooh watch out ...

#38 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jorgevy said:

@TheCrowbar: wow, blacks are a subs species? whites a sub species? yeah, Im done talking here, you certainly don't know what you are talking about. I already said, sub species is Homo Sapiens Sapiens, and species is Homo Sapiens. If you don't even know that, I feel sorry for anyone who goes to whatever school you went (or maybe it wasn't the school's fault, so, in that case, it's okay)

Actually I graduated from the University of Washington 3 years ago. I know a lot more about genetics than your wikipedia article. Also it's not subs species, it's subspecies which is synonymous with race. Your pseudo-offended sensibility is irrelevant. There is a major physical differences between blacks and whites(which are used as an example, and that physical trait difference is skin color), to deny that is ignorant.

#39 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

This thread has gotten out of hand, and you're being pretty disrespectful talking down to Jorgevy. He's not blameless in this, but we can be adults here and back down.

It's comics folks, be cool.

Additionally, being educated isn't an excuse to slap others in the face with it. I have a Masters degree and I don't flaunt it. There are plenty of people that are very knowledgeable on a variety of subjects who may not have degrees in them.

Also, when you're making points about your education and calling people ignorant, it's a good idea to check your grammar and make sure you use "are major difference" rather than "is major differences."

#40 Edited by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheCrowbar:

sorry, but mistakes are common when you're writting in a foreign language, but I see you really had to target my spelling mistakes to try and make righteous argument out of there.

yes, there are differences, not denying it (even though these differences are so minor that they do not account for a whole different subspecies or race - we are too young of a species for that) (also, if we go by those differences, then blondes or people with green eyes are also other races, why not), but seriously, if you have a degree and know so much about genetics and keep arguing that Blacks and Whites and anything that the general populace in America considers a race, are different "races" or subspecies, even though homo sapiens sapiens is the subspecies for every single human being on Earth, then I don't know what to do with you.

If you are programmed and raised to believe in all of that it's okay, I get it, it's one of the many social problems America will have to deal with in the future as a nation, but I sincerely hoped that the education in the US, specially college, could free you and others from those stigmas

Now, for real, I am not replying, I have college classes tomorrow, need to sleep and I don't want to lose my time arguing with someone who accepts such things as scientific fact, when in fact, they are quite obviously not. Cya around, I'll stay here on my "equality side" and won't bother you again ;D

#41 Posted by Backflip (2256 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crash_Recovery said:

Additionally, being educated isn't an excuse to slap others in the face with it. I have a Masters degree and I don't flaunt it. There are plenty of people that are very knowledgeable on a variety of subjects who may not have degrees in them.

You're wrong to call out on 'flaunting' his education as it wasn't him who brought it up, but rather Jorgevy who initiated the aggression. So actually, you proceeding to be arsey to TheCrowbar just makes you look like a bit of a jerk. I'm not keen to see any love lost here, but both are at fault, and actually I'd be more inclined to say that Jorgevy has caused more of a disturbance (However, reacting is not an acceptable argument either...)

#42 Posted by Backflip (2256 posts) - - Show Bio

#43 Posted by Jorgevy (5114 posts) - - Show Bio

@Backflip: +1 mean girls is an awesome movie!

#44 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

Made my day, thanks

#45 Posted by thespideyguy (2645 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

Beacuse mutants ARE a separate race, it would be like if all black pepole woke up white or vice versa

You still said people

#46 Posted by Crash_Recovery (850 posts) - - Show Bio

@BlueLantern1995: That's what I've been trying to get at.

It's like hating people with naturally blue eyes but loving people with blue colored contacts.

Pretty asinine.

#47 Posted by Backflip (2256 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jorgevy: I'm not even ashamed to agree with you. Seriously, it's the most quotable movie ever.

#48 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, it seems that with Marvel now that lines between mutant and mutate will be blurred.

#49 Posted by Backflip (2256 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crash_Recovery: @BlueLantern1995: Because you're thinking of this on a really tiny scale and from an outsiders perspective.

Lets say that there are... 300 characters that pop up in Marvel books each month. Maybe, 20% of them are mutants. A further 40% gained their powers through other means and the rest are either street level, cosmic, or tech based. Even still, that means that only say 110 characters gained their powers through an altering of genetics.

If we say that as a whole, there are maybe even 10X that many character in the universe that don't appear regularly, it'd still only equal out at just over 1000. That's not enough people to fill a small town.

Mutants, before Cassandra Nova and Decimation, numbered at 32 million. That nearly accounts for the entire population of Canada.

So on such large scales, you'll see that mutants are still important because actually, people aren't getting superpowers. Not in high enough quantities. Using my very, very vague figures, you've got like a 1 in 50,000,000 chance of gaining super powers from external means.

(I apologize for the math, it's not exact, I'm a humanities boy, but you get the point.)

#50 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32862 posts) - - Show Bio
@thespideyguy said:

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

Beacuse mutants ARE a separate race, it would be like if all black pepole woke up white or vice versa

You still said people

Um yea?

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