Who is the best leader of the mutant pop.

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#1 Posted by Tyler Starke (4410 posts) - - Show Bio


#2 Posted by The Stegman (25054 posts) - - Show Bio

I picked Batman

#3 Posted by jhazzroucher (16153 posts) - - Show Bio

Ororo Munroe aka Storm.

#4 Posted by Billy Batson (58153 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman ftw.
BB

#5 Posted by TheGoldenOne (38849 posts) - - Show Bio
@The Stegman said:
I picked Batman
#6 Posted by VictorGrey (13466 posts) - - Show Bio

C'mon people, get real. lol.

#7 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheGoldenOne said:
@The Stegman said:
I picked Batman
Yup, this.  
 
Pretty obviously Batman. 
#8 Posted by John Valentine (16313 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

Ororo Munroe aka Storm.

What has Storm actually done for Mutantkind of any realy importance in recent years? Nothing. I get that you like the character, possibly a little too much, but be realistic.

#9 Posted by VictorGrey (13466 posts) - - Show Bio

Now I wish I was on the winning team, lol.

#10 Edited by jhazzroucher (16153 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

Ororo Munroe aka Storm.

What has Storm actually done for Mutantkind of any realy importance in recent years? Nothing. I get that you like the character, possibly a little too much, but be realistic.

In recent years, maybe other Storm fans can tell you. But I can say that it is Storm who believes in Professor X'es dream, the reason why Prof X created the X-Men.

Besides, Storm also shows as a good model for leaders.

Good leaders don't opt to kill.

#11 Posted by John Valentine (16313 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

Ororo Munroe aka Storm.

What has Storm actually done for Mutantkind of any realy importance in recent years? Nothing. I get that you like the character, possibly a little too much, but be realistic.

In recent years, maybe other Storm fans can tell you. But I can say that it is Storm who believes in Professor X'es dream, the reason why Prof X created the X-Men.

Besides, Storm also shows as a good model for leaders.

Good leaders don't opt to kill.

So, yes, she's done nothing.

There's a reason why Xavier's dream was never accomplished.

What about nearly killing Callisto? What about ripping out Marrow's heart? What difference does it make if a leader opts not to kill?

#12 Edited by jhazzroucher (16153 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

Ororo Munroe aka Storm.

What has Storm actually done for Mutantkind of any realy importance in recent years? Nothing. I get that you like the character, possibly a little too much, but be realistic.

In recent years, maybe other Storm fans can tell you. But I can say that it is Storm who believes in Professor X'es dream, the reason why Prof X created the X-Men.

Besides, Storm also shows as a good model for leaders.

Good leaders don't opt to kill.

So, yes, she's done nothing.

There's a reason why Xavier's dream was never accomplished.

What about nearly killing Callisto? What about ripping out Marrow's heart? What difference does it make if a leader opts not to kill?

Yes she did something. Unfortunately, you fail to see that a leader needs to have a heart.

There's always a better way to solve a problem. And there is a reason why they're the x-men: to fulfill the dream.

kill when necessary. But to form a team to search for a group of killers and kill them is something else.

and i don't think marrow died. I think Storm didn't want to kill her either. I think Marrow had 2 hearts and.... i forget the whole story so i can't explain further.

#13 Posted by John Valentine (16313 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

Ororo Munroe aka Storm.

What has Storm actually done for Mutantkind of any realy importance in recent years? Nothing. I get that you like the character, possibly a little too much, but be realistic.

In recent years, maybe other Storm fans can tell you. But I can say that it is Storm who believes in Professor X'es dream, the reason why Prof X created the X-Men.

Besides, Storm also shows as a good model for leaders.

Good leaders don't opt to kill.

So, yes, she's done nothing.

There's a reason why Xavier's dream was never accomplished.

What about nearly killing Callisto? What about ripping out Marrow's heart? What difference does it make if a leader opts not to kill?

Yes she did something. Unfortunately, you fail to see that a leader needs to have a heart.

There's always a better way to solve a problem. And there is a reason why they're the x-men: to fulfill the dream.

kill when necessary. But to form a team to search for a group of killers and kill them is something else.

Again, I've asked you what she's done and you haven't replied with anything.

A dream can be changed, and it should be contemporarily. If they'd followed Xavier's dream in recent years, they'd be dead.

#14 Posted by jhazzroucher (16153 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

Ororo Munroe aka Storm.

What has Storm actually done for Mutantkind of any realy importance in recent years? Nothing. I get that you like the character, possibly a little too much, but be realistic.

In recent years, maybe other Storm fans can tell you. But I can say that it is Storm who believes in Professor X'es dream, the reason why Prof X created the X-Men.

Besides, Storm also shows as a good model for leaders.

Good leaders don't opt to kill.

So, yes, she's done nothing.

There's a reason why Xavier's dream was never accomplished.

What about nearly killing Callisto? What about ripping out Marrow's heart? What difference does it make if a leader opts not to kill?

Yes she did something. Unfortunately, you fail to see that a leader needs to have a heart.

There's always a better way to solve a problem. And there is a reason why they're the x-men: to fulfill the dream.

kill when necessary. But to form a team to search for a group of killers and kill them is something else.

Again, I've asked you what she's done and you haven't replied with anything.

A dream can be changed, and it should be contemporarily. If they'd followed Xavier's dream in recent years, they'd be dead.

and i told you other Storm fans can give you. what i gave you are qualities of a good leader.

who said they will die? did the leader even attempted to go for the better option first? or perhaps that leader isn't good at it and preferred a different option.

and would Marvel actually allow the x-men to die?

Anyway, this is one issue which makes Storm different from other leaders. who says Prof X dream cannot become a reality?

#15 Posted by John Valentine (16313 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

Ororo Munroe aka Storm.

What has Storm actually done for Mutantkind of any realy importance in recent years? Nothing. I get that you like the character, possibly a little too much, but be realistic.

In recent years, maybe other Storm fans can tell you. But I can say that it is Storm who believes in Professor X'es dream, the reason why Prof X created the X-Men.

Besides, Storm also shows as a good model for leaders.

Good leaders don't opt to kill.

So, yes, she's done nothing.

There's a reason why Xavier's dream was never accomplished.

What about nearly killing Callisto? What about ripping out Marrow's heart? What difference does it make if a leader opts not to kill?

Yes she did something. Unfortunately, you fail to see that a leader needs to have a heart.

There's always a better way to solve a problem. And there is a reason why they're the x-men: to fulfill the dream.

kill when necessary. But to form a team to search for a group of killers and kill them is something else.

Again, I've asked you what she's done and you haven't replied with anything.

A dream can be changed, and it should be contemporarily. If they'd followed Xavier's dream in recent years, they'd be dead.

and i told you other Storm fans can give you. what i gave you are qualities of a good leader.

who said they will die? did the leader even attempted to go for the better option first? or perhaps that leader isn't good at it and preferred a different option.

and would Marvel actually allow the x-men to die?

Anyway, this is one issue which makes Storm different from other leaders. who says Prof X dream cannot become a reality?

Okay, cool. Cyclops and Magneto certainly display the qualities of a good leader too.

"Oh, hey, Purifiers, Bastion, Graydon Creed, Cameron Hodge, Leper Queen and Risman, let's talk things out. I'm sure we can get over your undying hate and determination to wipe out mutant-kind". Storm would not have found another way; there was no other way. Second to this, Cyclops and Wolverine had to make these hard decisions whilst Storm was off in Wakanda playing Queen.

Fourth wall logic is irrelevant in this situation, we're discussing events that have happened, not publishing practicalities. Of course Marvel's not going to let the main characters of one of their more popular franchises die.

Scans that are like fifteen years old, pre-M-day too, really do not prove your point.

#16 Posted by cyberninja (10413 posts) - - Show Bio

Definitely not Storm. 

#17 Posted by jhazzroucher (16153 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

Ororo Munroe aka Storm.

What has Storm actually done for Mutantkind of any realy importance in recent years? Nothing. I get that you like the character, possibly a little too much, but be realistic.

In recent years, maybe other Storm fans can tell you. But I can say that it is Storm who believes in Professor X'es dream, the reason why Prof X created the X-Men.

Besides, Storm also shows as a good model for leaders.

Good leaders don't opt to kill.

So, yes, she's done nothing.

There's a reason why Xavier's dream was never accomplished.

What about nearly killing Callisto? What about ripping out Marrow's heart? What difference does it make if a leader opts not to kill?

Yes she did something. Unfortunately, you fail to see that a leader needs to have a heart.

There's always a better way to solve a problem. And there is a reason why they're the x-men: to fulfill the dream.

kill when necessary. But to form a team to search for a group of killers and kill them is something else.

Again, I've asked you what she's done and you haven't replied with anything.

A dream can be changed, and it should be contemporarily. If they'd followed Xavier's dream in recent years, they'd be dead.

and i told you other Storm fans can give you. what i gave you are qualities of a good leader.

who said they will die? did the leader even attempted to go for the better option first? or perhaps that leader isn't good at it and preferred a different option.

and would Marvel actually allow the x-men to die?

Anyway, this is one issue which makes Storm different from other leaders. who says Prof X dream cannot become a reality?

Okay, cool. Cyclops and Magneto certainly display the qualities of a good leader too.

"Oh, hey, Purifiers, Bastion, Graydon Creed, Cameron Hodge, Leper Queen and Risman, let's talk things out. I'm sure we can get over your undying hate and determination to wipe out mutant-kind". Storm would not have found another way; there was no other way. Second to this, Cyclops and Wolverine had to make these hard decisions whilst Storm was off in Wakanda playing Queen.

Fourth wall logic is irrelevant in this situation, we're discussing events that have happened, not publishing practicalities. Of course Marvel's not going to let the main characters of one of their more popular franchises die.

Scans that are like fifteen years old, pre-M-day too, really do not prove your point.

Cyclops has gone too far. As for Magneto, his dream wasn't something that would bring equality and peace to both humans and mutants.

There was no other way for Cyclops, not Storm.

But i have a point. Marvel wouldn't let the x-men die. and real people like us would not want a leader who thinks killing is the answer.

But i'm fine if you don't want to acknowledge that. If they had Storm lead the x-men that time, they would still survive but on a different way because writers know what kind of leader Storm is.

anyway, i'm done.

#18 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

Granny Goodness.

#19 Posted by John Valentine (16313 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

Ororo Munroe aka Storm.

What has Storm actually done for Mutantkind of any realy importance in recent years? Nothing. I get that you like the character, possibly a little too much, but be realistic.

In recent years, maybe other Storm fans can tell you. But I can say that it is Storm who believes in Professor X'es dream, the reason why Prof X created the X-Men.

Besides, Storm also shows as a good model for leaders.

Good leaders don't opt to kill.

So, yes, she's done nothing.

There's a reason why Xavier's dream was never accomplished.

What about nearly killing Callisto? What about ripping out Marrow's heart? What difference does it make if a leader opts not to kill?

Yes she did something. Unfortunately, you fail to see that a leader needs to have a heart.

There's always a better way to solve a problem. And there is a reason why they're the x-men: to fulfill the dream.

kill when necessary. But to form a team to search for a group of killers and kill them is something else.

Again, I've asked you what she's done and you haven't replied with anything.

A dream can be changed, and it should be contemporarily. If they'd followed Xavier's dream in recent years, they'd be dead.

and i told you other Storm fans can give you. what i gave you are qualities of a good leader.

who said they will die? did the leader even attempted to go for the better option first? or perhaps that leader isn't good at it and preferred a different option.

and would Marvel actually allow the x-men to die?

Anyway, this is one issue which makes Storm different from other leaders. who says Prof X dream cannot become a reality?

Okay, cool. Cyclops and Magneto certainly display the qualities of a good leader too.

"Oh, hey, Purifiers, Bastion, Graydon Creed, Cameron Hodge, Leper Queen and Risman, let's talk things out. I'm sure we can get over your undying hate and determination to wipe out mutant-kind". Storm would not have found another way; there was no other way. Second to this, Cyclops and Wolverine had to make these hard decisions whilst Storm was off in Wakanda playing Queen.

Fourth wall logic is irrelevant in this situation, we're discussing events that have happened, not publishing practicalities. Of course Marvel's not going to let the main characters of one of their more popular franchises die.

Scans that are like fifteen years old, pre-M-day too, really do not prove your point.

Cyclops has gone too far. As for Magneto, his dream wasn't something that would bring equality and peace to both humans and mutants.

There was no other way for Cyclops, not Storm.

But i have a point. Marvel wouldn't let the x-men die. and real people like us would not want a leader who thinks killing is the answer.

But i'm fine if you don't want to acknowledge that. If they had Storm lead the x-men that time, they would still survive but on a different way because writers know what kind of leader Storm is.

anyway, i'm done.

The goal of Magneto's dream is not the question here. I don't think equality is on the table anymore, anyway. It's about survival now, something Cyclops has done, even if you claim he's gone "too far". How has he done this? I'd like to see how you invalidate all of the decisions he's made relevant to mutant survival.

How could Storm have possibly done anything different? You can't even describe anything of worth she's done in the last few years, let alone specifically describe how she would have non-lethally dealt with imminent and powerful threats that could have lead to the extinction of mutant kind.

You can't just say that Storm would have found another way.

Storm was too busy acting Queen in a time when her people needed her. It's nice that she was able to have a life of marriage and wealth. Cyclops has sacrificed many aspects of his life, friendships included, for the survival of mutantkind. She hasn't had to bear the responsibility of that. Cyclops has. Storm just turns up and plays hypocrite.

#20 Posted by jeanlucpicard (1845 posts) - - Show Bio

I saw Wolverine and had to pick it.

#21 Posted by YoggSaron (812 posts) - - Show Bio

You gotta love how Batman is leading the polls right now.

#22 Posted by _Zombie_ (10457 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman. The answer is always Batman.

#23 Edited by jhazzroucher (16153 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

Ororo Munroe aka Storm.

What has Storm actually done for Mutantkind of any realy importance in recent years? Nothing. I get that you like the character, possibly a little too much, but be realistic.

In recent years, maybe other Storm fans can tell you. But I can say that it is Storm who believes in Professor X'es dream, the reason why Prof X created the X-Men.

Besides, Storm also shows as a good model for leaders.

Good leaders don't opt to kill.

So, yes, she's done nothing.

There's a reason why Xavier's dream was never accomplished.

What about nearly killing Callisto? What about ripping out Marrow's heart? What difference does it make if a leader opts not to kill?

Yes she did something. Unfortunately, you fail to see that a leader needs to have a heart.

There's always a better way to solve a problem. And there is a reason why they're the x-men: to fulfill the dream.

kill when necessary. But to form a team to search for a group of killers and kill them is something else.

Again, I've asked you what she's done and you haven't replied with anything.

A dream can be changed, and it should be contemporarily. If they'd followed Xavier's dream in recent years, they'd be dead.

and i told you other Storm fans can give you. what i gave you are qualities of a good leader.

who said they will die? did the leader even attempted to go for the better option first? or perhaps that leader isn't good at it and preferred a different option.

and would Marvel actually allow the x-men to die?

Anyway, this is one issue which makes Storm different from other leaders. who says Prof X dream cannot become a reality?

Okay, cool. Cyclops and Magneto certainly display the qualities of a good leader too.

"Oh, hey, Purifiers, Bastion, Graydon Creed, Cameron Hodge, Leper Queen and Risman, let's talk things out. I'm sure we can get over your undying hate and determination to wipe out mutant-kind". Storm would not have found another way; there was no other way. Second to this, Cyclops and Wolverine had to make these hard decisions whilst Storm was off in Wakanda playing Queen.

Fourth wall logic is irrelevant in this situation, we're discussing events that have happened, not publishing practicalities. Of course Marvel's not going to let the main characters of one of their more popular franchises die.

Scans that are like fifteen years old, pre-M-day too, really do not prove your point.

Cyclops has gone too far. As for Magneto, his dream wasn't something that would bring equality and peace to both humans and mutants.

There was no other way for Cyclops, not Storm.

But i have a point. Marvel wouldn't let the x-men die. and real people like us would not want a leader who thinks killing is the answer.

But i'm fine if you don't want to acknowledge that. If they had Storm lead the x-men that time, they would still survive but on a different way because writers know what kind of leader Storm is.

anyway, i'm done.

The goal of Magneto's dream is not the question here. I don't think equality is on the table anymore, anyway. It's about survival now, something Cyclops has done, even if you claim he's gone "too far". How has he done this? I'd like to see how you invalidate all of the decisions he's made relevant to mutant survival.

How could Storm have possibly done anything different? You can't even describe anything of worth she's done in the last few years, let alone specifically describe how she would have non-lethally dealt with imminent and powerful threats that could have lead to the extinction of mutant kind.

You can't just say that Storm would have found another way.

Storm was too busy acting Queen in a time when her people needed her. It's nice that she was able to have a life of marriage and wealth. Cyclops has sacrificed many aspects of his life, friendships included, for the survival of mutantkind. She hasn't had to bear the responsibility of that. Cyclops has. Storm just turns up and plays hypocrite.

Cyclops has gone too far and that's a fact. He even asked Storm to stay with his side because Storm acts as the conscience to his team.

As for Magneto, he still has the tendency to show superiority. Well, i hope he really changed.

and why would you invalidate an issue which is more than 15 years old when that's still what Storm believes in? which is also the purpose of being an x-men.

And you just can't say if Storm has led the team, the mutants would die.

Cyclops is the leader and even he didn't tell her about the purpose of creating the x-force.

#24 Posted by John Valentine (16313 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

Cyclops has gone too far and that's a fact. He even asked Storm to stay with his side because Storm acts as the conscience to his team.

As for Magneto, he still has the tendency to show superiority. Well, i hope he really changed.

and why would you invalidate an issue which is more than 15 years old when that's still what Storm believes in? which is also the purpose of being an x-men.

And you just can't say if Storm has led the team, the mutants would die.

Cyclops is the leader and even he didn't tell her about the purpose of creating the x-force.

Give examples. Stop just saying things. Why has he gone to far? Examples where he acted unjustly when there was another, more moral course of action.

Again. Irrelevant. Showing superiority has nothing to do with his abilities as a leader. I'm prefer sure referring to oneself as a "Goddess" and being royalty displays superiority.

She believes in something that's no longer realistic, even now more so than ever, that's why. Professor X and Magneto have stated that their dreams are no longer the best course for mutantkind.

I'm saying that certain, more extreme measures were needed to ensure that more mutants wouldn't die. You said that Storm wouldn't employ these methods, but would somehow manage to do something else.

He didn't tell any of the X-Men, even Emma. Besides, it's not as though Storm was a regular member at the time.

#25 Posted by jhazzroucher (16153 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

Cyclops has gone too far and that's a fact. He even asked Storm to stay with his side because Storm acts as the conscience to his team.

As for Magneto, he still has the tendency to show superiority. Well, i hope he really changed.

and why would you invalidate an issue which is more than 15 years old when that's still what Storm believes in? which is also the purpose of being an x-men.

And you just can't say if Storm has led the team, the mutants would die.

Cyclops is the leader and even he didn't tell her about the purpose of creating the x-force.

Give examples. Stop just saying things. Why has he gone to far? Examples where he acted unjustly when there was another, more moral course of action.

Again. Irrelevant. Showing superiority has nothing to do with his abilities as a leader. I'm prefer sure referring to oneself as a "Goddess" and being royalty displays superiority.

She believes in something that's no longer realistic, even now more so than ever, that's why. Professor X and Magneto have stated that their dreams are no longer the best course for mutantkind.

I'm saying that certain, more extreme measures were needed to ensure that more mutants wouldn't die. You said that Storm wouldn't employ these methods, but would somehow manage to do something else.

He didn't tell any of the X-Men, even Emma. Besides, it's not as though Storm was a regular member at the time.

I gave examples of the qualities of being a good leader which Cyclops fails.

Forming the x-force to kill.

Well I can't really say something negative about Magneto cos i'm not certain of his change as a hero. BUt the fact of what he has been before, writers would tend to write him to be the way he was before , perhaps this time more lenient but I don't know if it's better than Cyke's or not.

When i said superiority, it's putting mutants above humans.

it MAY not be realistic, but still killing is not the right thing to do. and again, if it was Storm, it would have been better.

Storm would at least try it out before putting "killing" as an option. Though I don't think she would like the idea of creating a team to hunt down mutant-killers and kill them. Maybe during the battle she would opt to kill when necessary, but to search for those anti-mutant groups and attack and kill them, I don't think so.

Cyclops didn't tell the x-men because it is completely different from Prof X'es dream. If he wants it, then he should leave the team and form his own team, and not change the x-men dream.

So let's say Mark's mom was killed and found out the murderer a few weeks later. Mark will look for the murderer and kill him and hopefully nobody knows he killed her mom's killer.

That's against the law.

#26 Posted by THUNDERBOLT30 (10654 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

Ororo Munroe aka Storm.

Agreed. And I love Yardin's Storm. He is one of the best Storm artists. Wasn't this argument already done before anyway?

#27 Posted by _slim_ (13258 posts) - - Show Bio

H.

#28 Posted by krilling (2488 posts) - - Show Bio

What has Bats to do with mutan..oh wait now I get it!

I pick Batman.

#29 Edited by John Valentine (16313 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

Cyclops has gone too far and that's a fact. He even asked Storm to stay with his side because Storm acts as the conscience to his team.

As for Magneto, he still has the tendency to show superiority. Well, i hope he really changed.

and why would you invalidate an issue which is more than 15 years old when that's still what Storm believes in? which is also the purpose of being an x-men.

And you just can't say if Storm has led the team, the mutants would die.

Cyclops is the leader and even he didn't tell her about the purpose of creating the x-force.

Give examples. Stop just saying things. Why has he gone to far? Examples where he acted unjustly when there was another, more moral course of action.

Again. Irrelevant. Showing superiority has nothing to do with his abilities as a leader. I'm prefer sure referring to oneself as a "Goddess" and being royalty displays superiority.

She believes in something that's no longer realistic, even now more so than ever, that's why. Professor X and Magneto have stated that their dreams are no longer the best course for mutantkind.

I'm saying that certain, more extreme measures were needed to ensure that more mutants wouldn't die. You said that Storm wouldn't employ these methods, but would somehow manage to do something else.

He didn't tell any of the X-Men, even Emma. Besides, it's not as though Storm was a regular member at the time.

I gave examples of the qualities of being a good leader which Cyclops fails.

Forming the x-force to kill.

Well I can't really say something negative about Magneto cos i'm not certain of his change as a hero. BUt the fact of what he has been before, writers would tend to write him to be the way he was before , perhaps this time more lenient but I don't know if it's better than Cyke's or not.

When i said superiority, it's putting mutants above humans.

it MAY not be realistic, but still killing is not the right thing to do. and again, if it was Storm, it would have been better.

Storm would at least try it out before putting "killing" as an option. Though I don't think she would like the idea of creating a team to hunt down mutant-killers and kill them. Maybe during the battle she would opt to kill when necessary, but to search for those anti-mutant groups and attack and kill them, I don't think so.

Cyclops didn't tell the x-men because it is completely different from Prof X'es dream. If he wants it, then he should leave the team and form his own team, and not change the x-men dream.

So let's say Mark's mom was killed and found out the murderer a few weeks later. Mark will look for the murderer and kill him and hopefully nobody knows he killed her mom's killer.

That's against the law.

He's a bad leader because he's willing to kill in order to save his people? Why does that make him a bad leader? Plenty of real world leaders have been willing to kill. Caesar, Alexander the Great, Churchill, Napoleon etc. He's gone too far to try and save his race? Not yet. He's proactively tried to take down threats that could have wiped out his race and sacrificed a great deal because of it. I don't get how you can say that forming X-Force makes him a bad leader; it makes him anything but. Moreover, X-Force worked to stop harm to human-kind too. For example, the League of Humanity had planned to weaponise mutants and set them against human populations; they managed to do this with Beautiful Dreamer and Fever pitch resulting in the deaths of hundreds of humans. X-Force stopped them from allowing Hellion, Surge and Boom Boom to blow up, preventing the deaths of hundreds of other humans. Additionally, X-Force took down Selene a much greater threat to human-kind than most Marvel Universe villains.

You also fail to mention all the general good Cyclops does through both acts of public service (e.g. damage control post Second Coming) and general super-heroics with his X-Tinction team (e.g. recently saving San Francisco yet again!). If anything, Cyclops is, for a large part, a realistic representation of how a leader in this situation would act. Furthermore, he's a tactical genius. A much better military leader than Storm. Cyclops is a much more respected leader in the MU than Storm. Captain America cites him as one of the best leaders in existence.

Magneto has always been written as a great leader, so many characters in the Marvel Universe agree (including Iron Man, Professor X and Captain America). He's lead multiple bands of followers and a whole nation with millions of mutants, Genosha. A leader should prioritize the well-fare of their people above others. Just this week in X-Men Legacy Toad acknowledged how great a leader he was.

Storm nearly killed Marrow and Callisto, pathetic, outcast, sewer-dwelling mutants. She wasn't even doing it to protect her race. From what you've said, surely Storm should have found another way? Unless there wasn't another way..... Cyclops has tried negotiations, but there is no other way to take down threats that could lead to extinction of mutant kind. Do you not get this? The reality is that Storm didn't have to deal with this stuff; Storm pissed off and played Queen, abandoning her race in their time of greatest need and came back to play hypocrite. Cyclops was there for mutant kind and has managed, thus far, to keep them from becoming extinct by the hand of threats that wish to kill them.

The X-Men who are following Cyclops largely agree with or accept his current views, that's why they chose him over Wolverine. Even Storm accepts his current viewpoints enough to follow him. Irrelevant point. Professor X's dream is DATED. Anyone who would follow this in mutant kind's current state would ensure the the race's death. Professor X himself has acknowledge that this is no longer the best course for mutant kind.

Congratulations, murder is illegal. But this is a fight for survival. Cyclops should obey the laws and let his race roll over and die? NO. What would Storm do? Make a truce with them? NOT AN OPTION. There was no other option.

Also, if we're going down this route would can conclude that super-heroics would be illegal. It's vigilantism which results in assault. I'm sure there have been thousands of people killed/maimed/harmed by the actions of The Avengers, The Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Hulk and The X-Men.

It's obvious you like Storm and dislike Cyclops, but you can't ignore the facts. I have to ask, do you actually read X-Men comics? Have you been reading for the last five years or do you just read comics to read about Storm and ignore every other character? That's what it seems like. You haven't cited anything specific of recent years that's relevant.

In summary, Cyclops is objectively a good leader as he's this far ensured the survival of his race post M-Day by means that are non-ideal but necessary given the situation.

It's posters that you who actually make me dislike Storm and wish she'd just disappear. Then I realise your skewed representations of the character are exactly that, skewed and wrong, and do as much disservice to the character as those who frequently bash and slag her off.

#30 Edited by jhazzroucher (16153 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

Cyclops has gone too far and that's a fact. He even asked Storm to stay with his side because Storm acts as the conscience to his team.

As for Magneto, he still has the tendency to show superiority. Well, i hope he really changed.

and why would you invalidate an issue which is more than 15 years old when that's still what Storm believes in? which is also the purpose of being an x-men.

And you just can't say if Storm has led the team, the mutants would die.

Cyclops is the leader and even he didn't tell her about the purpose of creating the x-force.

Give examples. Stop just saying things. Why has he gone to far? Examples where he acted unjustly when there was another, more moral course of action.

Again. Irrelevant. Showing superiority has nothing to do with his abilities as a leader. I'm prefer sure referring to oneself as a "Goddess" and being royalty displays superiority.

She believes in something that's no longer realistic, even now more so than ever, that's why. Professor X and Magneto have stated that their dreams are no longer the best course for mutantkind.

I'm saying that certain, more extreme measures were needed to ensure that more mutants wouldn't die. You said that Storm wouldn't employ these methods, but would somehow manage to do something else.

He didn't tell any of the X-Men, even Emma. Besides, it's not as though Storm was a regular member at the time.

I gave examples of the qualities of being a good leader which Cyclops fails.

Forming the x-force to kill.

Well I can't really say something negative about Magneto cos i'm not certain of his change as a hero. BUt the fact of what he has been before, writers would tend to write him to be the way he was before , perhaps this time more lenient but I don't know if it's better than Cyke's or not.

When i said superiority, it's putting mutants above humans.

it MAY not be realistic, but still killing is not the right thing to do. and again, if it was Storm, it would have been better.

Storm would at least try it out before putting "killing" as an option. Though I don't think she would like the idea of creating a team to hunt down mutant-killers and kill them. Maybe during the battle she would opt to kill when necessary, but to search for those anti-mutant groups and attack and kill them, I don't think so.

Cyclops didn't tell the x-men because it is completely different from Prof X'es dream. If he wants it, then he should leave the team and form his own team, and not change the x-men dream.

So let's say Mark's mom was killed and found out the murderer a few weeks later. Mark will look for the murderer and kill him and hopefully nobody knows he killed her mom's killer.

That's against the law.

He's a bad leader because he's willing to kill in order to save his people? Why does that make him a bad leader? Plenty of real world leaders have been willing to kill. Caesar, Alexander the Great, Churchill, Napoleon etc. He's gone too far to try and save his race? Not yet. He's proactively tried to take down threats that could have wiped out his race and sacrificed a great deal because of it. I don't get how you can say that forming X-Force makes him a bad leader; it makes him anything but. Moreover, X-Force worked to stop harm to human-kind too. For example, the League of Humanity had planned to weaponise mutants and set them against human populations; they managed to do this with Beautiful Dreamer and Fever pitch resulting in the deaths of hundreds of humans. X-Force stopped them from allowing Hellion, Surge and Boom Boom to blow up, preventing the deaths of hundreds of other humans. Additionally, X-Force took down Selene a much greater threat to human-kind than most Marvel Universe villains.

You also fail to mention all the general good Cyclops does through both acts of public service (e.g. damage control post Second Coming) and general super-heroics with his X-Tinction team (e.g. recently saving San Francisco yet again!). If anything, Cyclops is, for a large part, a realistic representation of how a leader in this situation would act. Furthermore, he's a tactical genius. A much better military leader than Storm. Cyclops is a much more respected leader in the MU than Storm. Captain America cites him as one of the best leaders in existence.

Magneto has always been written as a great leader, so many characters in the Marvel Universe agree (including Iron Man, Professor X and Captain America). He's lead multiple bands of followers and a whole nation with millions of mutants, Genosha. A leader should prioritize the well-fare of their people above others. Just this week in X-Men Legacy Toad acknowledged how great a leader he was.

Storm nearly killed Marrow and Callisto, pathetic, outcast, sewer-dwelling mutants. She wasn't even doing it to protect her race. From what you've said, surely Storm should have found another way? Unless there wasn't another way..... Cyclops has tried negotiations, but there is no other way to take down threats that could lead to extinction of mutant kind. Do you not get this? The reality is that Storm didn't have to deal with this stuff; Storm pissed off and played Queen, abandoning her race in their time of greatest need and came back to play hypocrite. Cyclops was there for mutant kind and has managed, thus far, to keep them from becoming extinct by the hand of threats that wish to kill them.

The X-Men who are following Cyclops largely agree with or accept his current views, that's why they chose him over Wolverine. Even Storm accepts his current viewpoints enough to follow him. Irrelevant point. Professor X's dream is DATED. Anyone who would follow this in mutant kind's current state would ensure the the race's death. Professor X himself has acknowledge that this is no longer the best course for mutant kind.

Congratulations, murder is illegal. But this is a fight for survival. Cyclops should obey the laws and let his race roll over and die? NO. What would Storm do? Make a truce with them? NOT AN OPTION. There was no other option.

Also, if we're going down this route would can conclude that super-heroics would be illegal. It's vigilantism which results in assault. I'm sure there have been thousands of people killed/maimed/harmed by the actions of The Avengers, The Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Hulk and The X-Men.

It's obvious you like Storm and dislike Cyclops, but you can't ignore the facts. I have to ask, do you actually read X-Men comics? Have you been reading for the last five years or do you just read comics to read about Storm and ignore every other character? That's what it seems like. You haven't cited anything specific of recent years that's relevant.

In summary, Cyclops is objectively a good leader as he's this far ensured the survival of his race post M-Day by means that are non-ideal but necessary given the situation.

It's posters that you who actually make me dislike Storm and wish she'd just disappear. Then I realise your skewed representations of the character are exactly that, skewed and wrong, and do as much disservice to the character as those who frequently bash and slag her off.

So you're giving examples of leaders from the past? Leaders of today know that killing is not the answer. That's why we have countries who are united to each other (UN) to promote peace among all. Because they know that violence is not the answer.

I know Cyclops has done something good but he has done something bad which explains why I said he has gone too far as a leader.

Storm doesn't engage to a fight right away. She would call their attention that they come in peace.

I like Cyclops cos I actually like the idea of Storm and Cyclops romance. I love the X-Men very much that no matter how bad their films are, I watch it on theaters and buy their dvds. I don't hate the Avengers but I just prefer the X-Men.

That's where we differ. I don't dislike characters because of what people say. Especially if we're talking about the X-Men.

There is no good reason to dislike a comic character because of what real people are doing here. But then again, we differ in views.

#31 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7301 posts) - - Show Bio

Huh, well if Storm can't/shouldn't be a candidate then why the hell are Wolverine and Beast up there ? Neither have actually lead the MP compared to others, so to speak.

#32 Edited by John Valentine (16313 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

I know Cyclops has done something good but he has done something bad which explains why I said he has gone too far as a leader.

Storm doesn't engage to a fight right away. She would call their attention that they come in peace.

I like Cyclops cos I actually like the idea of Storm and Cyclops romance. I love the X-Men very much that no matter how bad their films are, I watch it on theaters and buy their dvds. I don't hate the Avengers but I just prefer the X-Men.

NO. What are you not getting? Peace was never an option. Yet again I have to explain to you that Storm wasn't even there to support her race or make these hard decision in time of need. Storm would never have been able to do anything else; no matter how great you think she is, the enemies of mutant-kind would not have allowed this.

The fact is that without Scott's measures the X-Men and mutant-kind wouldn't exist right now. End of. Cyclops has done some undesirable, but perfectly necessary things to ensure the future of the mutant race and he's sacrificed a great deal because of it. He's the first mutant ever to unite the mutant race.

#33 Posted by The Impersonator (5555 posts) - - Show Bio

#34 Posted by Fuchsia_Nightingale (10180 posts) - - Show Bio
Uncanny X-Men #1
#35 Posted by RogueOracle (242 posts) - - Show Bio

I like Cyke as leader of the X-Men, but I'm concerned at how long he will retain that leadership. Not many X-Men are happy with him and I'm concerned about his future. His current team are barely friends, and Emma's position is safe only due to Scott sadly, so she might feel a bit of a shake up. I miss 90s X-Men when they were family. In the end it's family that sticks together, and Scott's soldier-like mentality has me worried.

#36 Posted by jhazzroucher (16153 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@jhazzroucher said:

I know Cyclops has done something good but he has done something bad which explains why I said he has gone too far as a leader.

Storm doesn't engage to a fight right away. She would call their attention that they come in peace.

I like Cyclops cos I actually like the idea of Storm and Cyclops romance. I love the X-Men very much that no matter how bad their films are, I watch it on theaters and buy their dvds. I don't hate the Avengers but I just prefer the X-Men.

NO. What are you not getting? Peace was never an option. Yet again I have to explain to you that Storm wasn't even there to support her race or make these hard decision in time of need. Storm would never have been able to do anything else; no matter how great you think she is, the enemies of mutant-kind would not have allowed this.

The fact is that without Scott's measures the X-Men and mutant-kind wouldn't exist right now. End of. Cyclops has done some undesirable, but perfectly necessary things to ensure the future of the mutant race and he's sacrificed a great deal because of it. He's the first mutant ever to unite the mutant race.

I say "no" too. Cyclops doesn't get there to talk. If an enemy wants a fight, he gives them a fight while Storm foes to the opponent's place to try to talk to them. Maybe not at all times.

Cyclops actually reminds me of Bush declaring war when it wasn't necessary. He stopped listening to other leaders.

Again, we have US laws that mutants should also follow.

#37 Posted by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

@RogueOracle said:

I like Cyke as leader of the X-Men, but I'm concerned at how long he will retain that leadership. Not many X-Men are happy with him and I'm concerned about his future. His current team are barely friends, and Emma's position is safe only due to Scott sadly, so she might feel a bit of a shake up. I miss 90s X-Men when they were family. In the end it's family that sticks together, and Scott's soldier-like mentality has me worried.

This! I miss when being the leader meant you told 6 people what to do in a fight and when things got ugly the team turned to that person for guidance whether it be Cyclops or Storm. I miss when mutants weren't an army but just people who were wrongly being persecuted. In the end I am not happy with the direction the X-Men have been going for the last decade.

#38 Posted by NlGHTCRAWLER (2899 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

Ororo Munroe aka Storm.

Get out.

#39 Posted by RogueOracle (242 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blood1991 said:

@RogueOracle said:

I like Cyke as leader of the X-Men, but I'm concerned at how long he will retain that leadership. Not many X-Men are happy with him and I'm concerned about his future. His current team are barely friends, and Emma's position is safe only due to Scott sadly, so she might feel a bit of a shake up. I miss 90s X-Men when they were family. In the end it's family that sticks together, and Scott's soldier-like mentality has me worried.

This! I miss when being the leader meant you told 6 people what to do in a fight and when things got ugly the team turned to that person for guidance whether it be Cyclops or Storm. I miss when mutants weren't an army but just people who were wrongly being persecuted. In the end I am not happy with the direction the X-Men have been going for the last decade.

Exactly!!! I'm just wondering how long Scott can justify his attitude on their possible extinction. I understand his reasoning, but his attitude has been kind of bugging me for the last year or so. I mean I like Uncanny's line up but then again I don't have much emotional investment in the characters lately. I hate how we're getting another love-triangle (Scott-Emma-Namor). I enjoyed the banter between Hope and Namor is the Tabula Rasa arc, it's the small stuff like that. Little insights and quirks to the characters.

Now I feel like I'm reading something like GI Joe but not as fun. I get they like keeping X-Men serious, but it's just I don't know what direction the X-Men will take in the future.

#40 Posted by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

@RogueOracle: Same here you'd think that in that position you would want to make nice with everybody and not pick fights lol. I pretty much pick the book up more out of habit than looking forward to it. I'm curious as well to see where things are going as well alot of mutants are leading teams these days and I'm curious to see if AVX will be a mutant power grab.

#41 Posted by Yung ANcient One (4851 posts) - - Show Bio

Of course Batman would win SMH (+)

#42 Posted by Aiden Cross (15575 posts) - - Show Bio

Magneto, the real one. Not the current watered down version.

#43 Posted by Deadcool (6813 posts) - - Show Bio

Mahatma Gandhi... I mean, Prof. X...

#44 Posted by HolySerpent (12641 posts) - - Show Bio

Magneto- the real version...

#45 Posted by John Valentine (16313 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

I say "no" too. Cyclops doesn't get there to talk. If an enemy wants a fight, he gives them a fight while Storm foes to the opponent's place to try to talk to them. Maybe not at all times.

Cyclops actually reminds me of Bush declaring war when it wasn't necessary. He stopped listening to other leaders.

Again, we have US laws that mutants should also follow.

Marvel history disagrees with you. You can't give specific examples about any of this, even if you can, you'll just distort it out of context.

Such a poor and unnecessary comparison. If you're on about AvX, it hasn't even played out yet, so we don't know what will happen; Cyclops could very well be right about the path he's chosen. But if you're using it to question his leadership and conviction to his people; it's absolute. Furthermore, Storm, as well as his other X-Men, were willing to follow him into battle regardless.

So, superheroism is illegal by US law. I'm sure Black Panther prowling around Harlem and beating the crap out of thugs is illegal. As is Storm hitting people or altering weather patterns so drastically. Your point is that it is illegal to kill so Cyclops shouldn't have formed X-Force? X-Force only killed Risman/Purifiers, Leper Queen/Sapien League and Selene. Leper Queen was on death's row under HUMAN authority, in Guantanamo Bay; she was broken out out prison just as she was about to be executed, anway. Matthew Risman, leader was also a wanted man - ruthless mercenary turned religious fanatic.

Archangel killed Stryker, Warlock killed Cameron Hodge, Hope killed Bastion, Lang and Creed.

Most of X-Force's targets were already dead and had been resurrected by the TO virus. Were they actually alive after being resurrected? They were subject completely to the will of Bastion, a Nimrod/Matermold hybrid - had no free will. Moreover, the Purifiers and other factions had been warped so much by technological modification and indoctrination, that they could barely be considered human. Again, X-Force's actions, on the whole, acted to largely preserve human life. The "Human Council" were willing to sacrifice thousands and thousands of humans to kill a few hundred mutants.

Time and time again it has been shown that some threats, as was the case for those X-Force fought, will stop at nothing. They will not negotiate. Fifty years of X-Men history has shown this. What other option is there but to put down these monsters permanently?

Should Cyclops have just sat down and let his people die? Taking this proactive approach to ensure these threats were properly dealt with was the logical thing to do, and has no detrimental affect on his ability to lead. Second to this it ensured the problem was properly tackled. As shown by the Leper Queen's escape, these characters could not be dealt with by normal resources.

#46 Posted by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine: Your wasting your breath with that one. Honestly I'm not sure if he is Storm's biggest fan or if he is on a one man cruesade to destroy her. Either way I may not agree with everything you have posted, but I feel your effort is utterly wasted. I love Storm way more than the average person on this site, but some days I see where all that hate comes from >_>

#47 Posted by jhazzroucher (16153 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine: This is my last post since somebody is telling me to stop.

Still, the objective of forming the team doesn't change. To attack your enemies and kill them is not superheroism.

BUt I would understand why other people think Cyclops is the better leader. I was thinking Cyclops was the straightforward leader while Storm was the more compassionate one.

Storm is willing to follow because he respects Cyclops as the leader. and to be a good leader you also have to be a good follower.

I just don't think forming the X-Force was necessary and is definitely not what is an X-Men all about.

I actually don't like how writers have treated the characters in AvX. They were like making Cyclops look bad. Same goes to Cap saying he is declaring war against another superhero team which for me is out of his character.

But I'm still siding with the X-Men.

So for me, I just see Storm the best leader for mutants because of the way she handles situations.

#48 Edited by John Valentine (16313 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

I just don't think forming the X-Force was necessary and is definitely not what is an X-Men all about.

Yet again you FAIL.

/End. This is pointless. You have no clue even after the time I've wasted trying to explain everything to you.

#49 Posted by tg1982 (2715 posts) - - Show Bio

@jhazzroucher said:

Ororo Munroe aka Storm.

I agree.

#50 Posted by John Valentine (16313 posts) - - Show Bio

@tg1982 said:

I agree.

Why?

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