X-23 #19 *spoilers*

#1 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll start off by saying I'm severely disappointed.

Not just as a helix fan, but as an X-23 fan. Laura was made off to be a cold, heartless b****. She treated Julian kind of strangely all throughout the arc, but the last issue it really came clear. In the past, Laura has been shown to be somewhat sympathetic to the emotions of others, and even if she didn't like him in return anymore...they are friends. And he just risked dying to save her life....her only comment is "Oh. That was brave". Seriously, WTF? I'd have expected her to at least say "I am sorry" to him, say "I care about you in other ways"...but having her just walk off as if they aren't friends doesn't match Laura's character at all.

Well, that is all I'm going to say about that. Please spare me comments about Julian deserving it somehow, we have very different opinions on that matter, and this topic concerns Laura's reaction, not the viability of Hellion and X-23 as a couple.

#2 Posted by Mayo88m (246 posts) - - Show Bio

@k2:

Yeah I didn't like what they did either. It was kind of callous of her, and I think a little out of character for her now after all the emotional growth she has done since the series started. I think it was done more because they are stuffing her off in a corner, and don't have a way to showcase the relationship than for any real, and valid reason. I think that may be why it felt a little odd, and forced, but that's just my speculation. It sucked either way though.

#3 Posted by War Killer (20000 posts) - - Show Bio

Never liked their relationship so this doesn't bother me really.

#4 Posted by rokusan23 (146 posts) - - Show Bio

"K, thnx, bye. LOL."

I have a theory... the reason she blew off Julian is that... O_O she now likes Gambit!

>:O

#5 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

@rokusan23 said:

"K, thnx, bye. LOL."

I have a theory... the reason she blew off Julian is that... O_O she now likes Gambit!

>:O

Doubt it. It's just that she's being moved to a different title with different characters, so they had to tie lose ends up and crush any remaining relationships. Sever ties, y'know.

#6 Posted by EnSabahNurX (2313 posts) - - Show Bio

@k2: Well emotionally neither is ready for a relationship and since she is joining avengers academy so they probably just wanted to cut ties since it's a plot they won't be able to touch upon for a while.

Also Laura is a minimalist she can normally be compassionate but normally the emotional problems don't involve her like julian's feelings for her so she responded very aloof. Besides she does have a streak for being blunt. And finally it was probably to demonstrate that Laura still doesn't know how to relate appropriately when her own emotions are involved

There is also that thing you sometimes need to do to force someone to move on. Being cruel is sometimes the only way to get someone to force themselves to move on, sacrifice your own happiness for the sake of the other person. I still need to read the issue but there is always a subtext that doesn't always come off incredibly clear on the first read.

#7 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

@EnSabahNurX said:

@k2: Well emotionally neither is ready for a relationship and since she is joining avengers academy so they probably just wanted to cut ties since it's a plot they won't be able to touch upon for a while.

Also Laura is a minimalist she can normally be compassionate but normally the emotional problems don't involve her like julian's feelings for her so she responded very aloof. Besides she does have a streak for being blunt. And finally it was probably to demonstrate that Laura still doesn't know how to relate appropriately when her own emotions are involved

There is also that thing you sometimes need to do to force someone to move on. Being cruel is sometimes the only way to get someone to force themselves to move on, sacrifice your own happiness for the sake of the other person. I still need to read the issue but there is always a subtext that doesn't always come off incredibly clear on the first read.

I read it already a few times (the ending part). I don't think it fit with Laura's character, and I realized that it doesn't even fit with Issue #18 (in which she spoke to him about her view on things and they had the almost-kiss scene). There, it was like she was interested. Here...it seems like she changed her mind between issues.

Her reaction doesn't suggest a lack of knowing how to deal with emotions. It was supposed to show that she DID know how to deal with them, knowing what she wanted. But her reaction showed a complete lack of concern for her friends, which is not Laura.

Yeah, sometimes you need to be cruel. Still didn't think it fit with Laura. And in overall, this ending was forced to happen too quickly. If she was losing interest, it should have been touched upon elsewhere in the comic. I really don't think either character was emotionally unprepared for a relationship. Laura has come a long way from the start of the series, and the next step would have been something like this. For Julian's part, I suspect this was done as another reason to push him down the path of being a villain, which I dislike. He's my other favorite character, and I have read him from his first appearance to his latest...and the way writers use him as a punching back makes me sad. I think he would have been a great person to help Laura in her self-growth, if he was written true to character. He had a closeknit group of friends because he was a really good friend to them. He paid attention to what when on in their lives, and he was always there for them to give a hug or advice. Read the Hellions mini-series if you want to see what makes me say that. I'm not just saying 'oh it's always the writer's fault'--I blame the writing because his later appearances sometimes make me cringe, they are such poor representations of his character. They don't represent a person gradually changing throughout time--or changing in reaction to something horrible that has happened. They are just day and night changes, done by people who haven't read Academy X or NXM and think 'school bully, alright I can do this'.

#8 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio
*Watches Julian/Laura ship sail past and then sink*
 
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
#9 Posted by MatKrenz (1233 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't read any of their relationship from New X-Men so I wasn't bothered from this.

#10 Posted by Mayo88m (246 posts) - - Show Bio

@MatKrenz: The problem isn't really that they didn't get together, it's the way they didn't get together. If that makes sense. I think the writer of this topic agrees, but it's like the only reason this happened was because the series is ending, and so now they don't have a proper way to show the relationship since Hellion is over in WatXM, and Laura is in Avengers Academy. She even pointed out above that in issue 18 Laura had almost a completely different attitude with Julian and now in this issue she's pretty much "Go to hell." Kind of like issue 18 was written, or plotted out before the cancellation was revealed, and so Liu had to scramble to change things around in this issue. It just doesn't fit is all.

#11 Posted by jrock85 (2874 posts) - - Show Bio

@k2: This issue rubbed me the wrong way too.

#12 Posted by rokusan23 (146 posts) - - Show Bio

"have you ever let go of someone, Gambit?"

guuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurl, you didnt let Julian go... you chucked him away like a paper bag full of vomit ._. "I do not want you".... you made him sound like your least favorite food ._. damn you Liu. Cimini got spared from Laura's bluntness.. BAh, it doesnt make sense.

#13 Posted by Kairan1979 (16712 posts) - - Show Bio
#14 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mayo88m said:

@MatKrenz: The problem isn't really that they didn't get together, it's the way they didn't get together. If that makes sense. I think the writer of this topic agrees, but it's like the only reason this happened was because the series is ending, and so now they don't have a proper way to show the relationship since Hellion is over in WatXM, and Laura is in Avengers Academy. She even pointed out above that in issue 18 Laura had almost a completely different attitude with Julian and now in this issue she's pretty much "Go to hell." Kind of like issue 18 was written, or plotted out before the cancellation was revealed, and so Liu had to scramble to change things around in this issue. It just doesn't fit is all.

Exactly. And I think you are correct, that issue 18 was written pre-cancellation news, and 19 post-cancellation.

Hmmm I doubt it...but if it was a different writer than Liu, I bet that would be something to note.

#15 Posted by rokusan23 (146 posts) - - Show Bio

@k2: booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. burn marvel down.

#16 Posted by volnaib (44 posts) - - Show Bio

It could have been like Laura was thinking "Wolverine sends me to Avengers Academy. It is no good but not the worst thing of all, since Hellion will presumably try to meet with me as frequently as possible, and considering the fact Kimura is still alive it might be very dangerous for him. So the best solution will be to suppress his displacements. Totally. Considering his stubborn nature and romantical feelings for me... I will have to reject him harshly. And tell Gambit that I do not feel for Julian in case they have a conversation regarding that matter."

But I don't believe it myself. If the writers were Kyle and Yost - maybe. But something tells me that Liu MEANT IT.

Marvel, I want Kyle and Yost back, seriously.

#17 Posted by rokusan23 (146 posts) - - Show Bio

@volnaib said:

But I don't believe it myself. If the writers were Kyle and Yost - maybe. But something tells me that Liu MEANT IT.

Marvel, I want Kyle and Yost back, seriously.

(╯°□°)╯Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees!!!

#18 Posted by andrea_mendoza1997 (342 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with you . I was nearly bawling.

#19 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

Liu meant it...but that doesn't mean Laura did.

#20 Posted by volnaib (44 posts) - - Show Bio

@k2: Oh... true, true. That makes things better =)

Anyways, there's always an opportunity to create your own vision of the situation. Fanfiction and RPGs FTW. By the way, it'd be interesting to create a detached point story... I mean, to tell the story from Julian's point of view, for example (or anyone else's). We might see the reason why his room was a mess when Laura came there (maybe that's because some of the young mutants have decided to use his room as a party ground) and stuff.

#21 Posted by rokusan23 (146 posts) - - Show Bio

(O_O ) It be awesome if Julian becomes a villain though. (╯°□°)╯

#22 Posted by Kairan1979 (16712 posts) - - Show Bio
@rokusan23 said:

(O_O ) It be awesome if Julian becomes a villain though. (╯°□°)╯

When Wither turned into a villain, it wasn't awesome. I was happy when Elixir killed him.
#23 Posted by rokusan23 (146 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kairan1979: Wither... hmm, I dunno. I felt that. I mean, Selene was the only, for the lack of a better word, person he could have physical contact with.

Julian, wow. Talk about forever alone. Like everybody just loves abandoning the poor guy.

#24 Posted by volnaib (44 posts) - - Show Bio

@rokusan23 said:

(O_O ) It be awesome if Julian becomes a villain though. (╯°□°)╯

Antihero maybe... if he becomes a villain that means he will suck lose on a weekly basis. Maybe not just his limbs. Because the Good beats the Evil every time and other boring stuff.

@Kairan1979 said:

When Wither turned into a villain, it wasn't awesome. I was happy when Elixir killed him.

I was like "Foley, whadda hell are you doing?! Hands off! This guy loved (liked?) your girlfriend the same time you were bagging with a teacher (Julian confirms)! NO-NO-NO! ... damn, you killed him." Well, I was kinda sad Kevin became evuuul, though. The guy was miserable already, and (as I think of it) Selene still couldn't make him happier (yeah, well, she made him accept his powers and all, but have you seen a genuine smile on his face ever since?). And then Elixir kills him. And Ford dies the same miserable goth-y (no offense, I like goths) teenager he's been all this time. Sad but true.

@rokusan23 said:

I mean, Selene was the only, for the lack of a better word, person he could have physical contact with.

Cessily, too... but he didn't want her. To her huge disappointment.

#25 Posted by rokusan23 (146 posts) - - Show Bio

@volnaib:

Cessily, too... but he didn't want her. To her huge disappointment.

By physical contact I meant... sexy time :3

#26 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7268 posts) - - Show Bio

@k2 said:

@Mayo88m said:

@MatKrenz: The problem isn't really that they didn't get together, it's the way they didn't get together. If that makes sense. I think the writer of this topic agrees, but it's like the only reason this happened was because the series is ending, and so now they don't have a proper way to show the relationship since Hellion is over in WatXM, and Laura is in Avengers Academy. She even pointed out above that in issue 18 Laura had almost a completely different attitude with Julian and now in this issue she's pretty much "Go to hell." Kind of like issue 18 was written, or plotted out before the cancellation was revealed, and so Liu had to scramble to change things around in this issue. It just doesn't fit is all.

Exactly. And I think you are correct, that issue 18 was written pre-cancellation news, and 19 post-cancellation.

Hmmm I doubt it...but if it was a different writer than Liu, I bet that would be something to note.

Aren't all comic book issue written lik 2-3 months before the actual release date ? i mean, there's the drawing of the actual comic itself, the lettering, the production, etc, etc. I can't really imagine that #19 was written after the news of cancellation.

#27 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

@AgeofHurricane: Imagine death of an actor playing the main role in a tv series - creators can't continue the way it meant to be. They have two choices - drastic changes or cancelation of the series. Judging that the X23 series cancelation was an sudden order from above, it may be a similiar situation

#28 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

She was always more concerned about him, than he about her. Way more (watching him sleep, cutting herself because she saw him being kissed by surge. Even though she's trained to not feel anything, in X force she couldn't focus when she heard that he is in danger). It's a pure love, so seeing the exact opposite of this relation is so surreal, that it's got to be intentional doing of the writer. The other thing is that she said "I want... but I don't want you". If she said "I can't be with you" it would match her personality, but here she gives an example of making a choice (I would say "Level up for her" - it was her greatest problem). Complete lack of compassion.

#29 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7268 posts) - - Show Bio

@ambival1 said:

@AgeofHurricane: Imagine death of an actor playing the main role in a tv series - creators can't continue the way it meant to be. They have two choices - drastic changes or cancelation of the series. Judging that the X23 series cancelation was an sudden order from above, it may be a similiar situation

It may be a similar situation, it may not be, there isn't a definite answer.

#30 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

@ambival1 said:

@AgeofHurricane: Imagine death of an actor playing the main role in a tv series - creators can't continue the way it meant to be. They have two choices - drastic changes or cancelation of the series. Judging that the X23 series cancelation was an sudden order from above, it may be a similiar situation

This.

And--yes, I agree with you that that was Liu's intent...but it came off forced. By 'forced' I mean not logical and natural to the character. When Laura had been acting the way she had, for several years, it's hard to convince the audience that she just changed her mind on a whim. If Hellion and X-23 had to be split up, it should have been handled through other means. I can appreciate wanting to show character growth but all growth must be believable and--as I said--logical, and natural. The best reason to cause a split, in my view, would have been more safety-related on Hellion's part. Or the choice way...but with more development. The *I JUST CHANGED MY MIND, LAWL* method didn't work too well when it seemed to happen between issues. This needed more gradual development throughout the series. And if that couldn't be achieved, then don't touch on it at all and leave it for a future writer.

#31 Posted by Mayo88m (246 posts) - - Show Bio

@k2 said:

@ambival1 said:

@AgeofHurricane: Imagine death of an actor playing the main role in a tv series - creators can't continue the way it meant to be. They have two choices - drastic changes or cancelation of the series. Judging that the X23 series cancelation was an sudden order from above, it may be a similiar situation

This.

And--yes, I agree with you that that was Liu's intent...but it came off forced. By 'forced' I mean not logical and natural to the character. When Laura had been acting the way she had, for several years, it's hard to convince the audience that she just changed her mind on a whim. If Hellion and X-23 had to be split up, it should have been handled through other means. I can appreciate wanting to show character growth but all growth must be believable and--as I said--logical, and natural. The best reason to cause a split, in my view, would have been more safety-related on Hellion's part. Or the choice way...but with more development. The *I JUST CHANGED MY MIND, LAWL* method didn't work too well when it seemed to happen between issues. This needed more gradual development throughout the series. And if that couldn't be achieved, then don't touch on it at all and leave it for a future writer.

Yep, she should have left it laying for someone else to pick up. I really think she had other plans for the relationship. She hyped up Julian making a return in the solo series so much, it's hard to believe that she would only bring him back for (2?) issues, and then slap him around. Call me crazy, but pretty sure Liu knew that's not what the fans wanted at all. lol

And, like Ambiva said in an earlier post, Laura has ALWAYS been the one more in love with Julian than he was with her. There are way too many call-outs in the comics of her doing things as a result of her secret love for him. Wolverine mentioning how she lit up like a Christmas tree when he was mentioned, when she said they were all dead the minute they laid a finger on him, how she watched over him, not once but TWICE! Her coming to say good by while he was sleeping. Cutting herself out of jealousy. I mean come on!? Meh, whatever happened, or didn't happen upstairs at Marvel, the way this played out just isn't right.

#32 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not sure, but I think it wouldn't be a problem if he will visit her episodically in the avengers academy. We are not talking about a serious plot, but just a reminder that they still like each other. That would still be appropriate if we are talking about a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship. No rush. Such a drastic act of her refusing him takes both on a new route, where they may no longer be friends (enemies perhaps). It's a big decision with lots of unexpected consequences and it shouldn't be undertaken without rethinking. If Liu planned a serious plot involving these two, by doing that she put those ideas right into the grave.

#33 Posted by MyraMyraMyra (296 posts) - - Show Bio

Recently, Julian has been written as a bratty bully, while Laura has definitely become more and more mature (not that she was very childish to begin with) so technically, I can buy the "she outgrew him" explanation for now. Still, I can't help but feel like their budding relationship was ended because Laura was moved to another title that's full of teen romance.

I don't think that this necessarily means that there will be no more X-23/Hellion in the future. If she stays in AA (which I hope she won't because I want her back with the X-characters), they probably won't meet for a while, but I do think that future writers can still easily pick up where they left off and continue their relationship without compromising with previous character developement. Julian is bound to grow up, too. Maybe he grows up to be someone Laura feels connected to again.

#34 Posted by rokusan23 (146 posts) - - Show Bio

@volnaib said:

@k2: Oh... true, true. That makes things better =)

We might see the reason why his room was a mess when Laura came there (maybe that's because some of the young mutants have decided to use his room as a party ground) and stuff.

Yes, yes! They were trying to cheer him up... but you know... didnt work.

Wanna RP?

#35 Edited by snyderman567 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

I always hated Helion so i was happy she did not decide to be with that dick. I really enjoyed issue 19 and the arc overall. Liu does not disappoint.

#36 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

@snyderman567 said:

I always hated Helion so i was happy she did not decide to be with that dick. I really enjoyed issue 19 and the arc overall. Liu does not disappoint.

That's great, good for you. That's not the point here. The point is it wasn't done in a believable manner that was true to the character (Laura). This issue was like lazy writing, ignoring deeply established plot points to get to a quick solution. There are plenty of other ways I can think of for it to have ended more believably and in-character.

#37 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

@snyderman567 said:

@k2:

How clever, you posted the same video twice.

What's your evidence that Liu kept Laura in character? Not just 'she's a great writer, she's building X-23 up'. How can you specifically counter the inconsistencies I have pointed out?

#38 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

To be honest - I can't accept that scene with hellion on two sides:

1. refusing the relationship - she was deeply in love with julian and, judging by the scene in issue 1#, she secretly wants him to be with her.

2. accepting the relationship - she was made a cold killer - no emotions. Since she was like a puppet, or more like a slave, she never had any normal contact with people, never had any life experiences, so she should know nothing about a relationship, and it was portrayed frequently in K&Y times - she couldn't stop thinking about him, but also she couldn't explain why she thinks about him so much. Those emotions were an unknown threat to her (for example cutting herself badly in bathroom in New Xmen), cause she was stricly educated to repel any emotions, so in other words she doesn't know what is love, and thus she doesn't know that she should enjoy the fact that she is in love. That plot was always present in their relationship until that scene with a kiss, where she said "I want... but I don't want you". In other words "I know what is love, I want to feel love, but I don't want to share it with you" - what is opposite not to just her love interest, but to her personality whatsoever. Liu correctly described it in issue 1 just to totally ruin it in the issue 19

#39 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

@snyderman567 said:

@k2: You mean how it is clever to use my vid in your reply in my other post? I have evidence, but i assume that you are likely to nitpick and argue about them like the crazed annoying fantard that you are to no end, so what would be the point.

There is no need to resort to name calling. This is a discussion forum to discuss our favorite (and not-favorite) characters, so everyone here is a fan, and discussing them in a logical manner is neither crazed nor annoying. Instead of resorting to juvenile actions, why don't you actually present the counter evidence? Or just stay out of the discussion altogether. If you don't want to hear arguments to your views, then don't post on forums--because you are never going to have 100% agreement on any topic.

#40 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

@snyderman567: Not just k2 - I also would like to hear about those evidences. IMO there aren't many, but there are, like her narration in those red boxes. As for the story, it's bad, boring, predictable and quite shallow. There's a bad guy or an evil force, it has to be stopped, and after it has been stopped it's like "What are we doing now? I don't know. Let's go to the next bad guy".

#41 Posted by getritch (1 posts) - - Show Bio

@snyderman567 said:

I always hated Helion so i was happy she did not decide to be with that dick. I really enjoyed issue 19 and the arc overall. Liu does not disappoint.

Hey, kid, this isn't facebook. We're an amicable community, so it follows that there's no reason to trash talk people's favorite characters. Especially when you don't know anything about them. While you're at it try not to have poor grammar when you trash talk other people's ideas/opinions. It makes you look petty and insecure.

@snyderman567 said:

@k2: You mean how it is clever to use my vid in your reply in my other post? I have evidence, but i assume that you are likely to nitpick and argue about them like the crazed annoying fantard that you are to no end, so what would be the point.

After an English lesson, that would read, 'I have evidence, but i assume you (would/will) nitpick and argue about it to no end like the crazed annoying fantard that you are; there is no point.'

Btw: correcting your grammar or posting habits, rather than the content of your message? THATS nitpicking.

PS. So you dont make the mistake again, had @ used a quick quote and not done further editing, it would have automatically pasted your video in her reply. That means that her "use" of your video wasn't an attempt to be clever.

Swing and a miss.

Happy posting!

#42 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

@snyderman567 said:

Pretty sure swearing isn't okay on these forums. I'd advise you to behave yourself.

#43 Posted by John Valentine (16307 posts) - - Show Bio

@snyderman567 said:

@k2: You mean how it is clever to use my vid in your reply in my other post? I have evidence, but i assume that you are likely to nitpick and argue about them like the crazed annoying fantard that you are to no end, so what would be the point.

Stop posting.

#44 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

@snyderman567 said:

I'd advise you to stop whining.

Oh lookit you posting my posts. Thats so sweet.

I told you to follow the rules. I don't swear here, as much as I'd like to. Neither should you, unless you want to get kicked off.

Posts made solely to insult others are also not welcome here. The board is to discuss comic characters in agreeable terms and share your thoughts on them and the stories they are in. If you aren't going to do that, then why bother posting at all? Stop wasting space with content-less comments and childish attempts to provoke anger.

#45 Posted by Gawdzilla (376 posts) - - Show Bio

Whether you liked the ending of X-23 #19 or not next week on CBR is Liu's X-Position send your email to george@comicbookresources.com with "X-Position" in the title and send off your questions. And even though your disappointed or frustrated with the ending keep it civil.

#46 Posted by snyderman567 (152 posts) - - Show Bio

@k2: Bla bla bla bla bla bla, whatever makes you sleep at night.

#47 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

@snyderman567 said:

@k2: Bla bla bla bla bla bla, whatever makes you sleep at night.

?

#48 Posted by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

@snyderman567: The excessive trolling just got you a warning. It ends here and now.

#49 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

I loved this issue. i will admit her last scene with hellion could have been better though.

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