I like this. This was well put out.

One of the things that annoys me is that just because there's a female character who's single, does she really need a boyfriend? It has to be made into a believable manner but just for the sake of romance for a story, forget it.

Personally I liked Liu's take on X-23 and very much enjoyed her series.

I personally don't have too big of a problem with the split between X-23 and Hellion since their relationship was never that well developed. She had a crush on him, he had a crush on her, they shared a few longing glances, what else happened between them? Sure they saved each other's lives but she's saved plenty of people and plenty of people have saved her. They didn't even bother to have Hellion try to learn anything about X-23. In fact, I'm far more upset that they didn't develop this more:

However, X-23 and Hellion had the potential to develop a very interesting relationship and I think what people are really mad about is how Liu nipped that in the bud.

As for Liu's treatment of character in general. One of my biggest problems is how Liu tend to forget how smart and analytical X-23 is. X-23 always studies her targets and would never go into a situation without making as many preparations as she can. Look at Target X where she spent 3 weeks gathering intel on her aunt and almost a month gathering intel on the Xavier Institute and Wolverine. Yet, she just went after Daken as soon as she saw him, met with the boy she didn't kill as soon as she tracked him down, and she was completely unprepared when she had to babysit the Richards kids.

As for X-23's character development under Liu, sure she had some of that but at the same time, there was a lot of squandered potential. The major point is of course, her emotional development. I don't really think any of the writers have treated it with the right amount of introspection and complexity. They made her way too naive in that respect. Considering how she's had extensive training in infiltration and espionage, it makes no sense for her to not have a good understanding of social situations and emotional responses. If anything, she should have an excellent understanding of psychology as it would allow her to get to her targets more easily and lower their guard. She would simply deal with emotions on a much more impersonal and analytical basis, using them as a means to an end. It's her personal feelings that she has trouble with. So she should be able to predict what a specific emotion can achieve under a specific circumstance but she has little understanding of what emotions she personally experiences under those circumstances.

Liu kind of developed that a bit with X-23 beginning to have her own preferences such as her fondness for certain types of food and more emotional impulsiveness. However, since Liu had a habit of forgetting X-23's analytical side, the conflict of her developing emotions breaking out of that logical/utilitarian cage wasn't really there.

so well put both of you

But, anyway, somewhere along the line Julian has been written as an angry asshole. It seems to be the consensus that he should be written that way. However, this is not something that Liu put forth. She didn’t cut off his arms, she didn’t make him an angry dick, she didn’t make him a bully. Mike Carey is the one you should have beef with, not Liu. This is the Julian the folks at Marvel are giving us. It may not be the Julian we want, the kid we saw grow up in New X-Men, but it’s what we’ve got. So I think if you’re mad at Liu for what Julian has unfortunately become in the X-verse? It’s a little silly— it’s not her fault that everyone has decided that Julian should be a douche.

One more thing— if you choose to be annoyed at the fact that Laura told Julian in a straightforward manner that she has no feelings for him, but NOT be annoyed that Julian called Laura an unfeeling robot? I think you need to check yourself.

@why_you_mad_tho said:

@x_29:

But, anyway, somewhere along the line Julian has been written as an angry asshole. It seems to be the consensus that he should be written that way. However, this is not something that Liu put forth. She didn’t cut off his arms, she didn’t make him an angry dick, she didn’t make him a bully. Mike Carey is the one you should have beef with, not Liu. This is the Julian the folks at Marvel are giving us. It may not be the Julian we want, the kid we saw grow up in New X-Men, but it’s what we’ve got. So I think if you’re mad at Liu for what Julian has unfortunately become in the X-verse? It’s a little silly— it’s not her fault that everyone has decided that Julian should be a douche.

Julian wasnt a bully even when he got his hands cut off. Just angry. Theres a differnce between being angry that your teachers are hypocrites, don't show any interest in helping you an all treat you like you're a burden... and being told you're so called messiah cant help you, even tho you lost your hands fighting for her life. I'd be angry too. What Liu did was turn Hellion into, an insecure, obsessive, stalker with wife beater qualities. She could have just ended it all after the emasculation of Julian by Laura in the AIBS arc. But no...she just had to have Julian in X- 23 #21(?) stalkking Laura from behind trees while he gets called creepy....It added nothing to the story... She continued to assassinate his character for no reason at all. Julian at this point had semi redeemed by helping Rogue save Ariel's life..that was all thrown away once Liu got her hands on Julian. Liu was the only person i saw writing Julian as a douche. I blame Liu 100% for how SHE wrote Keller. She didn't cut off his arms..just his balls.

And now we move onto Laura. Because I’ve seen people think that A) Laura acted out of character or B) somehow Laura choosing not to be with Julian is a setback to her character development.

To the former, I have to call false. Was what Laura said hurtful to Julian? Sure. It sucks being broken up with. It sucks when you have someone you care deeply for that says they don’t feel the same way. But, the very matter-of-fact way that she told him? That just is Laura. Liu has done a million things to help make Laura a fully realized character, but she has kept the very logical way that Laura speaks and communicates to people. Laura didn’t pussyfoot around it, she didn’t lead Julian on (even from the first scene I think Laura is clearly trying to distance herself from Julian. It just that, you know, there were dragons and shit to deal with. Also there were children to save which was foremost on Laura’s mind). So… how exactly was this out of character? It’s not like she said “Julian you are awful and I could never like you ever.” No. She told him very clearly, and in her normal Laura like manner that she didn’t feel the same way she did.

She was a complete and total c word to Julian...and didnt even bother giving him an explanation for the sudden 180 in terms of feeling she had for him...she was nothing less than cold...a whole 1 page later tho..shes able to express herself to Gambit? You cant say she wasn't written to communicate properly if she was able to do so with Gambit in the exact same book. I shouldn't have to sit here and explain all the times that Laura has expressed sorrow ar the mere thought of Julian getting hurt. She broke down in tears when kimura threatened to kill Julian. You'd never be able to tell by the way Liu wrote her.

As for a character development step back? I really have a problem with the logic here. Because, one of the most intrinsic elements to Laura (and one that I have talked and talked and talked about) is her selflessness. Laura always puts others and their happiness before her own.

If Laura was so selfless and put others feelings before her own..then why did she try and help the emotionally destroyed Julian keller who was reaching out to her? Instead she tells him he stinks, and that she isn't there to talk to him and walks away..... Julian was clearly unhappy and possibly even suicidal and she clearly acted like she did not care. By your own rational..does that not count as being out of character?

By the time X-Force was over, Laura had been a kid assassin, a prostitute, a clone, a cutter, put through intense torture, and she had been forced to go back to being a killer.

So from that, Liu had to try and address these issues and also make Laura a person. With thoughts and feelings and her own mind. Not just the character that writers seem to get off on making her life worse. She addressed the building blocks that Kyle/Yost put forth (Laura is selfless! She speaks in a particular way! She’s resilient!) and shemade Laura a person. While the series might be called X-23? It really should be called Laura Kinney, because the entire point of the series was about moving Laura away from her past and allowing her to grow and be a person.

And? Julian has had to deal with watching his best friend get blown up right in fron of his face, being mutilated multiple times, having the people who are supposed to look out for him threatnen him with imprisonment and death because he defne himself against a mahcine who was trying to murder him and others. Being disowned by his family because he refused to hide apart of himself, and having his mentor emma frost turn her back on him. And liu decided to get off by making his life worst...something you accuse other writers of doing to Laura. Also, you cant claim that Laura is the same uncommunicative person shes always been..and then say Liu has given her character development.

And that’s really what I want as a Laura fan. I want her to be happy. I want her to know what makes her happy, and to be able to go for it. If she would have been happy with Julian, fine. But the fact that Liu says she isn’t happy with him? It shows the same development for her. If he doesn’t make her happy, she shouldn’t stay. Bar none. But the fact that Liu says she isn’t happy with him? It shows the same development for her. If he doesn’t make her happy, she shouldn’t stay. Bar none.

In some ways I think this stems from people caring about the ship of Julian/Laura more than… Laura herself. Which is irksome. If you really cared about Laura? I think you’d realize just how much this run has been positive for her and her character development.

So Liu deciding that Laura is better off without Julian means that's it's ok to assassinate Julian's character? They could have broken up applicably...instead she opted for character assassination to make Laura look more grown up. Thats not character development. Did she even bother mentioning Julian and how important he was to her? Or how important her friends were? No, she made i9t seem like these relationships never existed. Something that carried over into Avengers Academy.

And, honestly, Laura deserves to be with a nice guy like Ken over being with the douche that Julian has become. If Julian goes back to being the way he was before? Great. I think I could ship it again. But as it stands? No. Sorry.

.....Liu is the one who turned Julian into a douche in the first place.And Liu had a chance to help Julian get back to the way he was before..but she wasn't interested in that. She wanted to have Laura Burn all her bridges with the xmen so she would jump ship to AA..where there she talks about how she was never friends with all those kids who saved her life..and cared for her.

One more thing— if you choose to be annoyed at the fact that Laura told Julian in a straightforward manner that she has no feelings for him, but NOT be annoyed that Julian called Laura an unfeeling robot? I think you need to check yourself.

She told him she had no feelings for him...right after acting like she didn't care if he offed himself or not...while all he did was try and get his friend to talk to him...i would have called her an unfeeling robot too.

Approved.

Her Astonishing X-Men is also sh!t.

@why_you_mad_tho said:

@x_29:

But, anyway, somewhere along the line Julian has been written as an angry asshole. It seems to be the consensus that he should be written that way. However, this is not something that Liu put forth. She didn’t cut off his arms, she didn’t make him an angry dick, she didn’t make him a bully. Mike Carey is the one you should have beef with, not Liu. This is the Julian the folks at Marvel are giving us. It may not be the Julian we want, the kid we saw grow up in New X-Men, but it’s what we’ve got. So I think if you’re mad at Liu for what Julian has unfortunately become in the X-verse? It’s a little silly— it’s not her fault that everyone has decided that Julian should be a douche.

Julian wasnt a bully even when he got his hands cut off. Just angry. Theres a differnce between being angry that your teachers are hypocrites, don't show any interest in helping you an all treat you like you're a burden... and being told you're so called messiah cant help you, even tho you lost your hands fighting for her life. I'd be angry too. What Liu did was turn Hellion into, an insecure, obsessive, stalker with wife beater qualities. She could have just ended it all after the emasculation of Julian by Laura in the AIBS arc. But no...she just had to have Julian in X- 23 #21(?) stalkking Laura from behind trees while he gets called creepy....It added nothing to the story... She continued to assassinate his character for no reason at all. Julian at this point had semi redeemed by helping Rogue save Ariel's life..that was all thrown away once Liu got her hands on Julian. Liu was the only person i saw writing Julian as a douche. I blame Liu 100% for how SHE wrote Keller. She didn't cut off his arms..just his balls.

And now we move onto Laura. Because I’ve seen people think that A) Laura acted out of character or B) somehow Laura choosing not to be with Julian is a setback to her character development.

To the former, I have to call false. Was what Laura said hurtful to Julian? Sure. It sucks being broken up with. It sucks when you have someone you care deeply for that says they don’t feel the same way. But, the very matter-of-fact way that she told him? That just is Laura. Liu has done a million things to help make Laura a fully realized character, but she has kept the very logical way that Laura speaks and communicates to people. Laura didn’t pussyfoot around it, she didn’t lead Julian on (even from the first scene I think Laura is clearly trying to distance herself from Julian. It just that, you know, there were dragons and shit to deal with. Also there were children to save which was foremost on Laura’s mind). So… how exactly was this out of character? It’s not like she said “Julian you are awful and I could never like you ever.” No. She told him very clearly, and in her normal Laura like manner that she didn’t feel the same way she did.

She was a complete and total c word to Julian...and didnt even bother giving him an explanation for the sudden 180 in terms of feeling she had for him...she was nothing less than cold...a whole 1 page later tho..shes able to express herself to Gambit? You cant say she wasn't written to communicate properly if she was able to do so with Gambit in the exact same book. I shouldn't have to sit here and explain all the times that Laura has expressed sorrow ar the mere thought of Julian getting hurt. She broke down in tears when kimura threatened to kill Julian. You'd never be able to tell by the way Liu wrote her.

As for a character development step back? I really have a problem with the logic here. Because, one of the most intrinsic elements to Laura (and one that I have talked and talked and talked about) is her selflessness. Laura always puts others and their happiness before her own.

If Laura was so selfless and put others feelings before her own..then why did she try and help the emotionally destroyed Julian keller who was reaching out to her? Instead she tells him he stinks, and that she isn't there to talk to him and walks away..... Julian was clearly unhappy and possibly even suicidal and she clearly acted like she did not care. By your own rational..does that not count as being out of character?

By the time X-Force was over, Laura had been a kid assassin, a prostitute, a clone, a cutter, put through intense torture, and she had been forced to go back to being a killer.

So from that, Liu had to try and address these issues and also make Laura a person. With thoughts and feelings and her own mind. Not just the character that writers seem to get off on making her life worse. She addressed the building blocks that Kyle/Yost put forth (Laura is selfless! She speaks in a particular way! She’s resilient!) and shemade Laura a person. While the series might be called X-23? It really should be called Laura Kinney, because the entire point of the series was about moving Laura away from her past and allowing her to grow and be a person.

And? Julian has had to deal with watching his best friend get blown up right in fron of his face, being mutilated multiple times, having the people who are supposed to look out for him threatnen him with imprisonment and death because he defne himself against a mahcine who was trying to murder him and others. Being disowned by his family because he refused to hide apart of himself, and having his mentor emma frost turn her back on him. And liu decided to get off by making his life worst...something you accuse other writers of doing to Laura. Also, you cant claim that Laura is the same uncommunicative person shes always been..and then say Liu has given her character development.

And that’s really what I want as a Laura fan. I want her to be happy. I want her to know what makes her happy, and to be able to go for it. If she would have been happy with Julian, fine. But the fact that Liu says she isn’t happy with him? It shows the same development for her. If he doesn’t make her happy, she shouldn’t stay. Bar none. But the fact that Liu says she isn’t happy with him? It shows the same development for her. If he doesn’t make her happy, she shouldn’t stay. Bar none.

In some ways I think this stems from people caring about the ship of Julian/Laura more than… Laura herself. Which is irksome. If you really cared about Laura? I think you’d realize just how much this run has been positive for her and her character development.

So Liu deciding that Laura is better off without Julian means that's it's ok to assassinate Julian's character? They could have broken up applicably...instead she opted for character assassination to make Laura look more grown up. Thats not character development. Did she even bother mentioning Julian and how important he was to her? Or how important her friends were? No, she made i9t seem like these relationships never existed. Something that carried over into Avengers Academy.

And, honestly, Laura deserves to be with a nice guy like Ken over being with the douche that Julian has become. If Julian goes back to being the way he was before? Great. I think I could ship it again. But as it stands? No. Sorry.

.....Liu is the one who turned Julian into a douche in the first place.And Liu had a chance to help Julian get back to the way he was before..but she wasn't interested in that. She wanted to have Laura Burn all her bridges with the xmen so she would jump ship to AA..where there she talks about how she was never friends with all those kids who saved her life..and cared for her.

One more thing— if you choose to be annoyed at the fact that Laura told Julian in a straightforward manner that she has no feelings for him, but NOT be annoyed that Julian called Laura an unfeeling robot? I think you need to check yourself.

She told him she had no feelings for him...right after acting like she didn't care if he offed himself or not...while all he did was try and get his friend to talk to him...i would have called her an unfeeling robot too.

If that is how you feel. I see it completely different.

@why_you_mad_tho said:

@x_29:

But, anyway, somewhere along the line Julian has been written as an angry asshole. It seems to be the consensus that he should be written that way. However, this is not something that Liu put forth. She didn’t cut off his arms, she didn’t make him an angry dick, she didn’t make him a bully. Mike Carey is the one you should have beef with, not Liu. This is the Julian the folks at Marvel are giving us. It may not be the Julian we want, the kid we saw grow up in New X-Men, but it’s what we’ve got. So I think if you’re mad at Liu for what Julian has unfortunately become in the X-verse? It’s a little silly— it’s not her fault that everyone has decided that Julian should be a douche.

Julian wasnt a bully even when he got his hands cut off. Just angry. Theres a differnce between being angry that your teachers are hypocrites, don't show any interest in helping you an all treat you like you're a burden... and being told you're so called messiah cant help you, even tho you lost your hands fighting for her life. I'd be angry too. What Liu did was turn Hellion into, an insecure, obsessive, stalker with wife beater qualities. She could have just ended it all after the emasculation of Julian by Laura in the AIBS arc. But no...she just had to have Julian in X- 23 #21(?) stalkking Laura from behind trees while he gets called creepy....It added nothing to the story... She continued to assassinate his character for no reason at all. Julian at this point had semi redeemed by helping Rogue save Ariel's life..that was all thrown away once Liu got her hands on Julian. Liu was the only person i saw writing Julian as a douche. I blame Liu 100% for how SHE wrote Keller. She didn't cut off his arms..just his balls.

And now we move onto Laura. Because I’ve seen people think that A) Laura acted out of character or B) somehow Laura choosing not to be with Julian is a setback to her character development.

To the former, I have to call false. Was what Laura said hurtful to Julian? Sure. It sucks being broken up with. It sucks when you have someone you care deeply for that says they don’t feel the same way. But, the very matter-of-fact way that she told him? That just is Laura. Liu has done a million things to help make Laura a fully realized character, but she has kept the very logical way that Laura speaks and communicates to people. Laura didn’t pussyfoot around it, she didn’t lead Julian on (even from the first scene I think Laura is clearly trying to distance herself from Julian. It just that, you know, there were dragons and shit to deal with. Also there were children to save which was foremost on Laura’s mind). So… how exactly was this out of character? It’s not like she said “Julian you are awful and I could never like you ever.” No. She told him very clearly, and in her normal Laura like manner that she didn’t feel the same way she did.

She was a complete and total c word to Julian...and didnt even bother giving him an explanation for the sudden 180 in terms of feeling she had for him...she was nothing less than cold...a whole 1 page later tho..shes able to express herself to Gambit? You cant say she wasn't written to communicate properly if she was able to do so with Gambit in the exact same book. I shouldn't have to sit here and explain all the times that Laura has expressed sorrow ar the mere thought of Julian getting hurt. She broke down in tears when kimura threatened to kill Julian. You'd never be able to tell by the way Liu wrote her.

As for a character development step back? I really have a problem with the logic here. Because, one of the most intrinsic elements to Laura (and one that I have talked and talked and talked about) is her selflessness. Laura always puts others and their happiness before her own.

If Laura was so selfless and put others feelings before her own..then why did she try and help the emotionally destroyed Julian keller who was reaching out to her? Instead she tells him he stinks, and that she isn't there to talk to him and walks away..... Julian was clearly unhappy and possibly even suicidal and she clearly acted like she did not care. By your own rational..does that not count as being out of character?

By the time X-Force was over, Laura had been a kid assassin, a prostitute, a clone, a cutter, put through intense torture, and she had been forced to go back to being a killer.

So from that, Liu had to try and address these issues and also make Laura a person. With thoughts and feelings and her own mind. Not just the character that writers seem to get off on making her life worse. She addressed the building blocks that Kyle/Yost put forth (Laura is selfless! She speaks in a particular way! She’s resilient!) and shemade Laura a person. While the series might be called X-23? It really should be called Laura Kinney, because the entire point of the series was about moving Laura away from her past and allowing her to grow and be a person.

And? Julian has had to deal with watching his best friend get blown up right in fron of his face, being mutilated multiple times, having the people who are supposed to look out for him threatnen him with imprisonment and death because he defne himself against a mahcine who was trying to murder him and others. Being disowned by his family because he refused to hide apart of himself, and having his mentor emma frost turn her back on him. And liu decided to get off by making his life worst...something you accuse other writers of doing to Laura. Also, you cant claim that Laura is the same uncommunicative person shes always been..and then say Liu has given her character development.

And that’s really what I want as a Laura fan. I want her to be happy. I want her to know what makes her happy, and to be able to go for it. If she would have been happy with Julian, fine. But the fact that Liu says she isn’t happy with him? It shows the same development for her. If he doesn’t make her happy, she shouldn’t stay. Bar none. But the fact that Liu says she isn’t happy with him? It shows the same development for her. If he doesn’t make her happy, she shouldn’t stay. Bar none.

In some ways I think this stems from people caring about the ship of Julian/Laura more than… Laura herself. Which is irksome. If you really cared about Laura? I think you’d realize just how much this run has been positive for her and her character development.

So Liu deciding that Laura is better off without Julian means that's it's ok to assassinate Julian's character? They could have broken up applicably...instead she opted for character assassination to make Laura look more grown up. Thats not character development. Did she even bother mentioning Julian and how important he was to her? Or how important her friends were? No, she made i9t seem like these relationships never existed. Something that carried over into Avengers Academy.

And, honestly, Laura deserves to be with a nice guy like Ken over being with the douche that Julian has become. If Julian goes back to being the way he was before? Great. I think I could ship it again. But as it stands? No. Sorry.

.....Liu is the one who turned Julian into a douche in the first place.And Liu had a chance to help Julian get back to the way he was before..but she wasn't interested in that. She wanted to have Laura Burn all her bridges with the xmen so she would jump ship to AA..where there she talks about how she was never friends with all those kids who saved her life..and cared for her.

One more thing— if you choose to be annoyed at the fact that Laura told Julian in a straightforward manner that she has no feelings for him, but NOT be annoyed that Julian called Laura an unfeeling robot? I think you need to check yourself.

She told him she had no feelings for him...right after acting like she didn't care if he offed himself or not...while all he did was try and get his friend to talk to him...i would have called her an unfeeling robot too.

I agree with you.

@why_you_mad_tho said:

.....Liu is the one who turned Julian into a douche in the first place.And Liu had a chance to help Julian get back to the way he was before..but she wasn't interested in that. She wanted to have Laura Burn all her bridges with the xmen so she would jump ship to AA..where there she talks about how she was never friends with all those kids who saved her life..and cared for her.

Okay, this is fucked. I remember this line and it pissed me to no end. Cessily Kincaid (people might not remember her) was Laura's best friend for quite some time. She tried to reach into Laura's human side, and treated her like a girl when everyone was being hostile to her. Julian and her also had a ton of development, and for Laura to say that... it was shit writting. Seriously, and not only that, it was a slap to the face to anyone who believes that comic book 'characters' are worthy of any attention or following. These writers are just way too disrespectful to them for Laura, Julian or Cessily to be thought as characters.

@Tchokes said:

@why_you_mad_tho said:

.....Liu is the one who turned Julian into a douche in the first place.And Liu had a chance to help Julian get back to the way he was before..but she wasn't interested in that. She wanted to have Laura Burn all her bridges with the xmen so she would jump ship to AA..where there she talks about how she was never friends with all those kids who saved her life..and cared for her.

Okay, this is fucked. I remember this line and it pissed me to no end. Cessily Kincaid (people might not remember her) was Laura's best friend for quite some time. She tried to reach into Laura's human side, and treated her like a girl when everyone was being hostile to her. Julian and her also had a ton of development, and for Laura to say that... it was shit writting. Seriously, and not only that, it was a slap to the face to anyone who believes that comic book 'characters' are worthy of any attention or following. These writers are just way too disrespectful to them for Laura, Julian or Cessily to be thought as characters.

Actually it was the writers before Liu, particularly after second coming, that turned Jullian into a douche in the first place. It is still entertaining to see fangirls to find excuses.

I think its bad writing when you go from a girl who basically will do anything to keep you safe (ie kill) then go to someone who says that there is NOTHING between them is bad writing. Yes Julian has been majorly mishandled by Marvel. But first off don't blame Mike Carey for Julian. He had a plan for Jules, but alas he never got a chance too see it through.

But going back to the topic at hand (hehehe), if she had told Julian what she had told Gambit I think a lot of people would less angry with the whole situation. But How in a span of maybe a dozen issues you go from risking your soul/killing someone/ect to saying there is nothing between them.

Just my opinion. I personally think Liu is a great writer, but the stuff she's put out in the last year and a half too two years has just been bad. Still love her work with Daken though.

Hey Helix fangirls wanna hear a secret? You see we men have things called feelings emotions if you will, and when a girl dumps us, those feelings they get hurt. And when we feel hurt we tend to throw rationality to the wind, lash out, and perhaps say things in the heat of the moment that we don't mean. In other words Hellion acted like any guy would when a girl dumps him, so no Liu did not make him the bad guy as that firebrand Onelildustbunni/K2 would have you think. (In fact the only argument she has that holds any water is that the break up was necessary) And in case you forgot what the whole point of the X-23 series was it was for Laura to change and guess what? She can realize that she doesn't feel the same about Julian like she used to after being away for like several months. (BTW He still means something to her just not the same) Now what you all seem to not realize is that this was NOT your book. This was Margerie Liu's book and she got to do what she wanted with it. Now I will admit that Jason Aaron messed up with Hellion (seriously I find Hellion as dull as dishwater and even I think he deserves some redemption), but as far Liu's concerned she did nothing wrong with the break up. As the Eagles put it:

@bsmith1190 said:

Hey Helix fangirls wanna hear a secret? You see we men have things called feelings emotions if you will, and when a girl dumps us, those feelings they get hurt. And when we feel hurt we tend to throw rationality to the wind, lash out, and perhaps say things in the heat of the moment that we don't mean. In other words Hellion acted like any guy would when a girl dumps him, so no Liu did not make him the bad guy as that firebrand Onelildustbunni/K2 would have you think. (In fact the only argument she has that holds any water is that the break up was necessary) And in case you forgot what the whole point of the X-23 series was it was for Laura to change and guess what? She can realize that she doesn't feel the same about Julian like she used to after being away for like several months. (BTW He still means something to her just not the same) Now what you all seem to not realize is that this was NOT your book. This was Margerie Liu's book and she got to do what she wanted with it. Now I will admit that Jason Aaron messed up with Hellion (seriously I find Hellion as dull as dishwater and even I think he deserves some redemption), but as far Liu's concerned she did nothing wrong with the break up. As the Eagles put it:

THIS! OVER 9000!

@x_29 said:

@bsmith1190 said:

Hey Helix fangirls wanna hear a secret? You see we men have things called feelings emotions if you will, and when a girl dumps us, those feelings they get hurt. And when we feel hurt we tend to throw rationality to the wind, lash out, and perhaps say things in the heat of the moment that we don't mean. In other words Hellion acted like any guy would when a girl dumps him, so no Liu did not make him the bad guy as that firebrand Onelildustbunni/K2 would have you think. (In fact the only argument she has that holds any water is that the break up was necessary) And in case you forgot what the whole point of the X-23 series was it was for Laura to change and guess what? She can realize that she doesn't feel the same about Julian like she used to after being away for like several months. (BTW He still means something to her just not the same) Now what you all seem to not realize is that this was NOT your book. This was Margerie Liu's book and she got to do what she wanted with it. Now I will admit that Jason Aaron messed up with Hellion (seriously I find Hellion as dull as dishwater and even I think he deserves some redemption), but as far Liu's concerned she did nothing wrong with the break up. As the Eagles put it:

THIS! OVER 9000!

I didn't realise that normal teenage guys physically lash out at a girl who dumps them and then proceed to stalk her afterwards.

@John Valentine said:

@x_29 said:

@bsmith1190 said:

Hey Helix fangirls wanna hear a secret? You see we men have things called feelings emotions if you will, and when a girl dumps us, those feelings they get hurt. And when we feel hurt we tend to throw rationality to the wind, lash out, and perhaps say things in the heat of the moment that we don't mean. In other words Hellion acted like any guy would when a girl dumps him, so no Liu did not make him the bad guy as that firebrand Onelildustbunni/K2 would have you think. (In fact the only argument she has that holds any water is that the break up was necessary) And in case you forgot what the whole point of the X-23 series was it was for Laura to change and guess what? She can realize that she doesn't feel the same about Julian like she used to after being away for like several months. (BTW He still means something to her just not the same) Now what you all seem to not realize is that this was NOT your book. This was Margerie Liu's book and she got to do what she wanted with it. Now I will admit that Jason Aaron messed up with Hellion (seriously I find Hellion as dull as dishwater and even I think he deserves some redemption), but as far Liu's concerned she did nothing wrong with the break up. As the Eagles put it:

THIS! OVER 9000!

I didn't realise that normal teenage guys physically lash out at a girl who dumps them and then proceed to stalk her afterwards.

Yep. It is worse when that guy had his arms cut off.

@x_29 said:

@John Valentine said:

@x_29 said:

@bsmith1190 said:

Hey Helix fangirls wanna hear a secret? You see we men have things called feelings emotions if you will, and when a girl dumps us, those feelings they get hurt. And when we feel hurt we tend to throw rationality to the wind, lash out, and perhaps say things in the heat of the moment that we don't mean. In other words Hellion acted like any guy would when a girl dumps him, so no Liu did not make him the bad guy as that firebrand Onelildustbunni/K2 would have you think. (In fact the only argument she has that holds any water is that the break up was necessary) And in case you forgot what the whole point of the X-23 series was it was for Laura to change and guess what? She can realize that she doesn't feel the same about Julian like she used to after being away for like several months. (BTW He still means something to her just not the same) Now what you all seem to not realize is that this was NOT your book. This was Margerie Liu's book and she got to do what she wanted with it. Now I will admit that Jason Aaron messed up with Hellion (seriously I find Hellion as dull as dishwater and even I think he deserves some redemption), but as far Liu's concerned she did nothing wrong with the break up. As the Eagles put it:

THIS! OVER 9000!

I didn't realise that normal teenage guys physically lash out at a girl who dumps them and then proceed to stalk her afterwards.

Yep. It is worse when that guy had his arms cut off.

People don't do that. Liu is crap.

@John Valentine said:

@x_29 said:

@John Valentine said:

@x_29 said:

@bsmith1190 said:

Hey Helix fangirls wanna hear a secret? You see we men have things called feelings emotions if you will, and when a girl dumps us, those feelings they get hurt. And when we feel hurt we tend to throw rationality to the wind, lash out, and perhaps say things in the heat of the moment that we don't mean. In other words Hellion acted like any guy would when a girl dumps him, so no Liu did not make him the bad guy as that firebrand Onelildustbunni/K2 would have you think. (In fact the only argument she has that holds any water is that the break up was necessary) And in case you forgot what the whole point of the X-23 series was it was for Laura to change and guess what? She can realize that she doesn't feel the same about Julian like she used to after being away for like several months. (BTW He still means something to her just not the same) Now what you all seem to not realize is that this was NOT your book. This was Margerie Liu's book and she got to do what she wanted with it. Now I will admit that Jason Aaron messed up with Hellion (seriously I find Hellion as dull as dishwater and even I think he deserves some redemption), but as far Liu's concerned she did nothing wrong with the break up. As the Eagles put it:

THIS! OVER 9000!

I didn't realise that normal teenage guys physically lash out at a girl who dumps them and then proceed to stalk her afterwards.

Yep. It is worse when that guy had his arms cut off.

People don't do that. Liu is crap.

Clearly, you are not from this planet.

@x_29:

Clearly you have a warped view of normality if you think people react to being dumped by being physically abusive to and start stalking the person who dumped them.

It gets to a point where it becomes funny.

Upwards and onwards.

@John Valentine said:

@x_29:

Clearly you have a warped view of normality if you think people react to being dumped by being physically abusive to and start stalking the person who dumped them.

You do realize there are people who DO that? Not everyone, but it is common.

Stick this your craw Helix

http://hoodedcrow-2010.deviantart.com/art/What-I-think-of-Helix-343885485

@bsmith1190: Did you seriously dig up a three-month old thread for the sole purpose of trolling?

Anyhow, I'm a fan of Laura + Foley (I refuse to ever use the word "ship"), so I don't think I'll ever be too upset about the breakup, but it did seem a little bit sudden given what the two had just gone through. My issue with Liu's run had more to do with how bipolar it was, between interesting, Laura-building stuff and random, almost silly stuff. I preferred Kyle/Yost's run (hey, what can I say, I like when creators write their creations) but in Liu's defense, Laura's "HOW COULD THEY?!" bit during the Daken sideplot is one of my favorite moments for her, ever.

Helix was terrible from the get-go.

Honestly... I think the relationship had great potential. Am I upset that it ended? Yeah. In a way. I was pretty pissed when I read X-23 when they split.

However... The way Julian had been written to that point, I don't blame Laura for walking. His characterization was utterly terrible. The writers ignored all sense of growth to him and turned him into the bitter, emo, class bully-- oh, and let's not forget WatXM when he said that he came back to the school for 'The chicks and the action.'

Please.

I would, however, like to see them even out Hellion again and develop a friendship between the two. Would I like to see them back together? Yes. They brought good things to one another. However, it should develop organically again, and not be forced.