On Marjorie Liu's X-23: A letter to Helix fangirls

#1 Posted by x_29 (2272 posts) - - Show Bio

A (very long) rant under the cut. Basically, the Laura Kinney tracked tag has been bothering me after issue #19. Here is my response.

Ok. So in the past few months there has been a lot of grumbling from fans about issue #19. I get it. Having a ship sunk blows. It’s happened to me before, it happens all the time in comics. And I get that Julian/Laura fans are upset with the way it played out. To be honest, I see both sides. I see why Liu did what she did, and I see why fans of that ship are upset. I get it.

But good lord, the fact that Liu has become enemy number one to so many people is frustrating and, I think, misguided. And I take issue with people having a problem with Laura and her characterization.

Number one— the Julian problem. I think we can safely say that Julian’s characterization post-New X-Men has been a mess. For whatever reason, since Julian lost his hands everyone has decided that any previous character development should be thrown out the window. You get no argument from me— it sucks that everyone has decided that Julian should go back to being a bully. And worse yet, a very angry and unfriendly one. His characterization in Wolverine and the X-Men is one of the few things that I think Aaron has dropped the ball on with that series.

But, anyway, somewhere along the line Julian has been written as an angry asshole. It seems to be the consensus that he should be written that way. However, this is not something that Liu put forth. She didn’t cut off his arms, she didn’t make him an angry dick, she didn’t make him a bully. Mike Carey is the one you should have beef with, not Liu. This is the Julian the folks at Marvel are giving us. It may not be the Julian we want, the kid we saw grow up in New X-Men, but it’s what we’ve got.

So I think if you’re mad at Liu for what Julian has unfortunately become in the X-verse? It’s a little silly— it’s not her fault that everyone has decided that Julian should be a douche.

And now we move onto Laura. Because I’ve seen people think that A) Laura acted out of character or B) somehow Laura choosing not to be with Julian is a setback to her character development.

To the former, I have to call false. Was what Laura said hurtful to Julian? Sure. It sucks being broken up with. It sucks when you have someone you care deeply for that says they don’t feel the same way. But, the very matter-of-fact way that she told him? That just is Laura. Liu has done a million things to help make Laura a fully realized character, but she has kept the very logical way that Laura speaks and communicates to people. Laura didn’t pussyfoot around it, she didn’t lead Julian on (even from the first scene I think Laura is clearly trying to distance herself from Julian. It just that, you know, there were dragons and shit to deal with. Also there were children to save which was foremost on Laura’s mind). So… how exactly was this out of character? It’s not like she said “Julian you are awful and I could never like you ever.” No. She told him very clearly, and in her normal Laura like manner that she didn’t feel the same way she did.

As for a character development step back? I really have a problem with the logic here. Because, one of the most intrinsic elements to Laura (and one that I have talked and talked and talked about) is her selflessness. Laura always puts others and their happiness before her own. As far as being ~out in the field and fighting? It makes Laura a heroic person. She is always putting the people she wants to save way ahead of herself and her own well-being. But for her personal life? Laura should be able to choose who and what makes her happy. I think the point Liu was making here was that Laura is a selfless person to the core, but she deserves to be happy. She deserves to be with whoever makes her happy. In this instance, Julian’s ~feelings should have little impact on Laura. Is he someone that makes her happy now? No? Then Laura should be free to, I don’t know, not be with him? I think that’s pretty simple. And I think it actually shows growth, not a set back. The fact that for once Laura is putting her feelings before someone else is huge, guys.

As for people that think that Kyle/Yost should go back to writing Laura. I…. disagree. Wholeheartedly. When Liu started writing X-23 Laura was a laundry list of issues. Essentially it was just like, here is this character with a shit ton of issues and unresolved problems! Enjoy! And it was Liu’s job to, I don’t know, make Laura a person and not just… her problems. Which isn’t to say that I think Kyle/Yost completely dropped the ball on Laura. Not at all, the Laura arc in the last few issues of X-Force was one of my very favorite arcs for her. I also like in Target X how stubborn and protective Laura is. But, overall, so much of X-Force felt like Laura was ~the troubled girl. Even prior to X-Force, it felt like Kyle/Yost spent most of their time trying to figure out just how much shit they could put Laura through. By the time X-Force was over, Laura had been a kid assassin, a prostitute, a clone, a cutter, put through intense torture, and she had been forced to go back to being a killer.

So from that, Liu had to try and address these issues and also make Laura a person. With thoughts and feelings and her own mind. Not just the character that writers seem to get off on making her life worse. She addressed the building blocks that Kyle/Yost put forth (Laura is selfless! She speaks in a particular way! She’s resilient!) and she made Laura a person. While the series might be called X-23? It really should be called Laura Kinney, because the entire point of the series was about moving Laura away from her past and allowing her to grow and be a person.

Are there things that could have been included? Sure. And maybe there are things that we would like to see (I, personally, would have loved to have seen Cess show up) that were on the docket but Liu didn’t have a chance to get to. We’ll never know. But as far as what the series is? Liu has done a bang up job, I’m sorry. She’s brought Laura from a particularly dark place (which, Laura’s life is really just dark place after dark place, but still. X-Force was fucking rough), and she’s made her grow. Laura knows herself, what she wants, who she wants to be with. And that’s really what I want as a Laura fan. I want her to be happy. I want her to know what makes her happy, and to be able to go for it. If she would have been happy with Julian, fine. But the fact that Liu says she isn’t happy with him? It shows the same development for her. If he doesn’t make her happy, she shouldn’t stay. Bar none.

In some ways I think this stems from people caring about the ship of Julian/Laura more than… Laura herself. Which is irksome. If you really cared about Laura? I think you’d realize just how much this run has been positive for her and her character development.

As an aside, I saw something in the Avengers Academy tracked tag a few days ago that implied that Laura was dumping Julian to be with Mettle which… Wow. No. Laura very clearly stated in the issue that she had no feelings for Julian. Nowhere did she say that she had feelings for someone else. As for the implication in Avengers Academy? I think people are making a mountain out of a molehill there. So much of this ~future business is still unknown. And even if it does happen in the future, I think it’s pretty clear that this dark future is not the one that is going to unfold.

And, fuck, if Laura wants to get with Mettle eventually what is so wrong with that, exactly? Mettle is one of the sweetest guys. I ship Mettle/Hazmat and would prefer that to happen, but if Laura/Mettle does happen and they’re both happy then wonderful. They’re both great kids. And, honestly, Laura deserves to be with a nice guy like Ken over being with the douche that Julian has become. If Julian goes back to being the way he was before? Great. I think I could ship it again. But as it stands? No. Sorry.

So. To wrap up, I think Liu’s run has been great and overwhelmingly positive for Laura as a character. I think Julian’s characterization blows and as it stands should not be with Laura. On that note, if Laura is does not want to be with someone, she shouldn’t be with them. Also, final note? Criticizing Liu’s entire run for one issue that didn’t set well with you because it sunk your ship? Is bogus. Sorry.

One more thing— if you choose to be annoyed at the fact that Laura told Julian in a straightforward manner that she has no feelings for him, but NOT be annoyed that Julian called Laura an unfeeling robot? I think you need to check yourself.

#2 Edited by 244 (496 posts) - - Show Bio

I like this. This was well put out.

One of the things that annoys me is that just because there's a female character who's single, does she really need a boyfriend? It has to be made into a believable manner but just for the sake of romance for a story, forget it.

#3 Posted by War Killer (19860 posts) - - Show Bio

Personally I liked Liu's take on X-23 and very much enjoyed her series.

#4 Posted by KingofMadCows (345 posts) - - Show Bio

I personally don't have too big of a problem with the split between X-23 and Hellion since their relationship was never that well developed. She had a crush on him, he had a crush on her, they shared a few longing glances, what else happened between them? Sure they saved each other's lives but she's saved plenty of people and plenty of people have saved her. They didn't even bother to have Hellion try to learn anything about X-23. In fact, I'm far more upset that they didn't develop this more:

However, X-23 and Hellion had the potential to develop a very interesting relationship and I think what people are really mad about is how Liu nipped that in the bud.

As for Liu's treatment of character in general. One of my biggest problems is how Liu tend to forget how smart and analytical X-23 is. X-23 always studies her targets and would never go into a situation without making as many preparations as she can. Look at Target X where she spent 3 weeks gathering intel on her aunt and almost a month gathering intel on the Xavier Institute and Wolverine. Yet, she just went after Daken as soon as she saw him, met with the boy she didn't kill as soon as she tracked him down, and she was completely unprepared when she had to babysit the Richards kids.

As for X-23's character development under Liu, sure she had some of that but at the same time, there was a lot of squandered potential. The major point is of course, her emotional development. I don't really think any of the writers have treated it with the right amount of introspection and complexity. They made her way too naive in that respect. Considering how she's had extensive training in infiltration and espionage, it makes no sense for her to not have a good understanding of social situations and emotional responses. If anything, she should have an excellent understanding of psychology as it would allow her to get to her targets more easily and lower their guard. She would simply deal with emotions on a much more impersonal and analytical basis, using them as a means to an end. It's her personal feelings that she has trouble with. So she should be able to predict what a specific emotion can achieve under a specific circumstance but she has little understanding of what emotions she personally experiences under those circumstances.

Liu kind of developed that a bit with X-23 beginning to have her own preferences such as her fondness for certain types of food and more emotional impulsiveness. However, since Liu had a habit of forgetting X-23's analytical side, the conflict of her developing emotions breaking out of that logical/utilitarian cage wasn't really there.

#5 Posted by evanescencefan91 (36 posts) - - Show Bio

so well put both of you

#6 Posted by why_you_mad_tho (67 posts) - - Show Bio
@x_29

But, anyway, somewhere along the line Julian has been written as an angry asshole. It seems to be the consensus that he should be written that way. However, this is not something that Liu put forth. She didn’t cut off his arms, she didn’t make him an angry dick, she didn’t make him a bully. Mike Carey is the one you should have beef with, not Liu. This is the Julian the folks at Marvel are giving us. It may not be the Julian we want, the kid we saw grow up in New X-Men, but it’s what we’ve got. So I think if you’re mad at Liu for what Julian has unfortunately become in the X-verse? It’s a little silly— it’s not her fault that everyone has decided that Julian should be a douche.


Julian wasnt a bully even when he got his hands cut off. Just angry. Theres a differnce between being angry that your teachers are hypocrites, don't show any interest in helping you an all treat you like you're a burden... and being told you're so called messiah cant help you, even tho you lost your hands fighting for her life. I'd be angry too. What Liu did was turn Hellion into, an insecure, obsessive, stalker with wife beater qualities. She could have just ended it all after the emasculation of Julian by Laura in the AIBS arc. But no...she just had to have Julian in X- 23 #21(?) stalkking Laura from behind trees while he gets called creepy....It added nothing to the story... She continued to assassinate his character for no reason at all.  Julian at this point had semi redeemed by helping Rogue save Ariel's life..that was all thrown away once Liu got her hands on Julian. Liu was the only person i saw writing Julian as a douche. I blame Liu 100% for how SHE wrote Keller. She didn't cut off his arms..just his balls. 
 

And now we move onto Laura. Because I’ve seen people think that A) Laura acted out of character or B) somehow Laura choosing not to be with Julian is a setback to her character development.

To the former, I have to call false. Was what Laura said hurtful to Julian? Sure. It sucks being broken up with. It sucks when you have someone you care deeply for that says they don’t feel the same way. But, the very matter-of-fact way that she told him? That just is Laura. Liu has done a million things to help make Laura a fully realized character, but she has kept the very logical way that Laura speaks and communicates to people. Laura didn’t pussyfoot around it, she didn’t lead Julian on (even from the first scene I think Laura is clearly trying to distance herself from Julian. It just that, you know, there were dragons and shit to deal with. Also there were children to save which was foremost on Laura’s mind). So… how exactly was this out of character? It’s not like she said “Julian you are awful and I could never like you ever.” No. She told him very clearly, and in her normal Laura like manner that she didn’t feel the same way she did.
She was a complete and total c word to Julian...and didnt even bother giving him an explanation for the sudden 180 in terms of feeling she had for him...she was nothing less than cold...a whole 1 page later tho..shes able to express herself to Gambit? You cant say she wasn't written to communicate properly if she was able to do so with Gambit in the exact same book. I shouldn't have to sit here and explain all the times that Laura has expressed sorrow ar the mere thought of Julian getting hurt. She broke down in tears when kimura  threatened to kill Julian. You'd never be able to tell by the way Liu wrote her.


As for a character development step back? I really have a problem with the logic here. Because, one of the most intrinsic elements to Laura (and one that I have talked and talked and talked about) is her selflessness. Laura always puts others and their happiness before her own.

If Laura was so selfless and put others feelings before her own..then why did she try and help the emotionally destroyed Julian keller who was reaching out to her? Instead she tells him he stinks, and that she isn't there to talk to him and walks away..... Julian was clearly unhappy and possibly even suicidal and she clearly acted like she did not care. By your own rational..does that not count as being out of character?   
 


By the time X-Force was over, Laura had been a kid assassin, a prostitute, a clone, a cutter, put through intense torture, and she had been forced to go back to being a killer.

So from that, Liu had to try and address these issues and also make Laura a person. With thoughts and feelings and her own mind. Not just the character that writers seem to get off on making her life worse. She addressed the building blocks that Kyle/Yost put forth (Laura is selfless! She speaks in a particular way! She’s resilient!) and shemade Laura a person. While the series might be called X-23? It really should be called Laura Kinney, because the entire point of the series was about moving Laura away from her past and allowing her to grow and be a person.

And? Julian has had to deal with watching his best friend get blown up right in fron of his face, being mutilated multiple times, having the people who are supposed to look out for him threatnen him with imprisonment and death because he defne himself against a mahcine who was trying to murder him and others. Being disowned by his family because he refused to hide apart of himself, and having his mentor emma frost turn her back on him. And liu decided to get off by making his life worst...something you accuse other writers of doing to Laura. Also, you cant claim that Laura is the same uncommunicative person shes always been..and then say Liu has given her character development.   

And that’s really what I want as a Laura fan. I want her to be happy. I want her to know what makes her happy, and to be able to go for it. If she would have been happy with Julian, fine. But the fact that Liu says she isn’t happy with him? It shows the same development for her. If he doesn’t make her happy, she shouldn’t stay. Bar none. But the fact that Liu says she isn’t happy with him? It shows the same development for her. If he doesn’t make her happy, she shouldn’t stay. Bar none.

In some ways I think this stems from people caring about the ship of Julian/Laura more than… Laura herself. Which is irksome. If you really cared about Laura? I think you’d realize just how much this run has been positive for her and her character development.

So Liu deciding that Laura is better off without Julian means that's it's ok to assassinate Julian's character? They could have broken up applicably...instead she opted for character assassination to make Laura look more grown up. Thats not character development. Did she even bother mentioning Julian and how important he was to her? Or how important her friends were? No, she made i9t seem like these relationships never existed. Something that carried over into Avengers Academy. 

 

 And, honestly, Laura deserves to be with a nice guy like Ken over being with the douche that Julian has become. If Julian goes back to being the way he was before? Great. I think I could ship it again. But as it stands? No. Sorry.

.....Liu is the one who turned Julian into a douche in the first place.And Liu had a chance to help Julian get back to the way he was before..but she wasn't interested in that. She wanted to have Laura Burn all her bridges with the xmen so she would jump ship to AA..where there she talks about how she was never friends with all those kids who saved her life..and cared for her. 
 

One more thing— if you choose to be annoyed at the fact that Laura told Julian in a straightforward manner that she has no feelings for him, but NOT be annoyed that Julian called Laura an unfeeling robot? I think you need to check yourself.

She told him she had no feelings for him...right after acting like she  didn't  care if he offed himself or not...while all he did was try and get his friend to talk to him...i would have called her an  unfeeling  robot too.
#7 Posted by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

@why_you_mad_tho said:

@x_29:

But, anyway, somewhere along the line Julian has been written as an angry asshole. It seems to be the consensus that he should be written that way. However, this is not something that Liu put forth. She didn’t cut off his arms, she didn’t make him an angry dick, she didn’t make him a bully. Mike Carey is the one you should have beef with, not Liu. This is the Julian the folks at Marvel are giving us. It may not be the Julian we want, the kid we saw grow up in New X-Men, but it’s what we’ve got. So I think if you’re mad at Liu for what Julian has unfortunately become in the X-verse? It’s a little silly— it’s not her fault that everyone has decided that Julian should be a douche.


Julian wasnt a bully even when he got his hands cut off. Just angry. Theres a differnce between being angry that your teachers are hypocrites, don't show any interest in helping you an all treat you like you're a burden... and being told you're so called messiah cant help you, even tho you lost your hands fighting for her life. I'd be angry too. What Liu did was turn Hellion into, an insecure, obsessive, stalker with wife beater qualities. She could have just ended it all after the emasculation of Julian by Laura in the AIBS arc. But no...she just had to have Julian in X- 23 #21(?) stalkking Laura from behind trees while he gets called creepy....It added nothing to the story... She continued to assassinate his character for no reason at all. Julian at this point had semi redeemed by helping Rogue save Ariel's life..that was all thrown away once Liu got her hands on Julian. Liu was the only person i saw writing Julian as a douche. I blame Liu 100% for how SHE wrote Keller. She didn't cut off his arms..just his balls.

And now we move onto Laura. Because I’ve seen people think that A) Laura acted out of character or B) somehow Laura choosing not to be with Julian is a setback to her character development.
To the former, I have to call false. Was what Laura said hurtful to Julian? Sure. It sucks being broken up with. It sucks when you have someone you care deeply for that says they don’t feel the same way. But, the very matter-of-fact way that she told him? That just is Laura. Liu has done a million things to help make Laura a fully realized character, but she has kept the very logical way that Laura speaks and communicates to people. Laura didn’t pussyfoot around it, she didn’t lead Julian on (even from the first scene I think Laura is clearly trying to distance herself from Julian. It just that, you know, there were dragons and shit to deal with. Also there were children to save which was foremost on Laura’s mind). So… how exactly was this out of character? It’s not like she said “Julian you are awful and I could never like you ever.” No. She told him very clearly, and in her normal Laura like manner that she didn’t feel the same way she did.
She was a complete and total c word to Julian...and didnt even bother giving him an explanation for the sudden 180 in terms of feeling she had for him...she was nothing less than cold...a whole 1 page later tho..shes able to express herself to Gambit? You cant say she wasn't written to communicate properly if she was able to do so with Gambit in the exact same book. I shouldn't have to sit here and explain all the times that Laura has expressed sorrow ar the mere thought of Julian getting hurt. She broke down in tears when kimura threatened to kill Julian. You'd never be able to tell by the way Liu wrote her.

As for a character development step back? I really have a problem with the logic here. Because, one of the most intrinsic elements to Laura (and one that I have talked and talked and talked about) is her selflessness. Laura always puts others and their happiness before her own.

If Laura was so selfless and put others feelings before her own..then why did she try and help the emotionally destroyed Julian keller who was reaching out to her? Instead she tells him he stinks, and that she isn't there to talk to him and walks away..... Julian was clearly unhappy and possibly even suicidal and she clearly acted like she did not care. By your own rational..does that not count as being out of character?

By the time X-Force was over, Laura had been a kid assassin, a prostitute, a clone, a cutter, put through intense torture, and she had been forced to go back to being a killer.

So from that, Liu had to try and address these issues and also make Laura a person. With thoughts and feelings and her own mind. Not just the character that writers seem to get off on making her life worse. She addressed the building blocks that Kyle/Yost put forth (Laura is selfless! She speaks in a particular way! She’s resilient!) and shemade Laura a person. While the series might be called X-23? It really should be called Laura Kinney, because the entire point of the series was about moving Laura away from her past and allowing her to grow and be a person.

And? Julian has had to deal with watching his best friend get blown up right in fron of his face, being mutilated multiple times, having the people who are supposed to look out for him threatnen him with imprisonment and death because he defne himself against a mahcine who was trying to murder him and others. Being disowned by his family because he refused to hide apart of himself, and having his mentor emma frost turn her back on him. And liu decided to get off by making his life worst...something you accuse other writers of doing to Laura. Also, you cant claim that Laura is the same uncommunicative person shes always been..and then say Liu has given her character development.
And that’s really what I want as a Laura fan. I want her to be happy. I want her to know what makes her happy, and to be able to go for it. If she would have been happy with Julian, fine. But the fact that Liu says she isn’t happy with him? It shows the same development for her. If he doesn’t make her happy, she shouldn’t stay. Bar none. But the fact that Liu says she isn’t happy with him? It shows the same development for her. If he doesn’t make her happy, she shouldn’t stay. Bar none.
In some ways I think this stems from people caring about the ship of Julian/Laura more than… Laura herself. Which is irksome. If you really cared about Laura? I think you’d realize just how much this run has been positive for her and her character development.

So Liu deciding that Laura is better off without Julian means that's it's ok to assassinate Julian's character? They could have broken up applicably...instead she opted for character assassination to make Laura look more grown up. Thats not character development. Did she even bother mentioning Julian and how important he was to her? Or how important her friends were? No, she made i9t seem like these relationships never existed. Something that carried over into Avengers Academy.



And, honestly, Laura deserves to be with a nice guy like Ken over being with the douche that Julian has become. If Julian goes back to being the way he was before? Great. I think I could ship it again. But as it stands? No. Sorry.

.....Liu is the one who turned Julian into a douche in the first place.And Liu had a chance to help Julian get back to the way he was before..but she wasn't interested in that. She wanted to have Laura Burn all her bridges with the xmen so she would jump ship to AA..where there she talks about how she was never friends with all those kids who saved her life..and cared for her.


One more thing— if you choose to be annoyed at the fact that Laura told Julian in a straightforward manner that she has no feelings for him, but NOT be annoyed that Julian called Laura an unfeeling robot? I think you need to check yourself.

She told him she had no feelings for him...right after acting like she didn't care if he offed himself or not...while all he did was try and get his friend to talk to him...i would have called her an unfeeling robot too.

Approved.

Her Astonishing X-Men is also sh!t.

#8 Posted by x_29 (2272 posts) - - Show Bio

@why_you_mad_tho said:

@x_29:

But, anyway, somewhere along the line Julian has been written as an angry asshole. It seems to be the consensus that he should be written that way. However, this is not something that Liu put forth. She didn’t cut off his arms, she didn’t make him an angry dick, she didn’t make him a bully. Mike Carey is the one you should have beef with, not Liu. This is the Julian the folks at Marvel are giving us. It may not be the Julian we want, the kid we saw grow up in New X-Men, but it’s what we’ve got. So I think if you’re mad at Liu for what Julian has unfortunately become in the X-verse? It’s a little silly— it’s not her fault that everyone has decided that Julian should be a douche.


Julian wasnt a bully even when he got his hands cut off. Just angry. Theres a differnce between being angry that your teachers are hypocrites, don't show any interest in helping you an all treat you like you're a burden... and being told you're so called messiah cant help you, even tho you lost your hands fighting for her life. I'd be angry too. What Liu did was turn Hellion into, an insecure, obsessive, stalker with wife beater qualities. She could have just ended it all after the emasculation of Julian by Laura in the AIBS arc. But no...she just had to have Julian in X- 23 #21(?) stalkking Laura from behind trees while he gets called creepy....It added nothing to the story... She continued to assassinate his character for no reason at all. Julian at this point had semi redeemed by helping Rogue save Ariel's life..that was all thrown away once Liu got her hands on Julian. Liu was the only person i saw writing Julian as a douche. I blame Liu 100% for how SHE wrote Keller. She didn't cut off his arms..just his balls.

And now we move onto Laura. Because I’ve seen people think that A) Laura acted out of character or B) somehow Laura choosing not to be with Julian is a setback to her character development.
To the former, I have to call false. Was what Laura said hurtful to Julian? Sure. It sucks being broken up with. It sucks when you have someone you care deeply for that says they don’t feel the same way. But, the very matter-of-fact way that she told him? That just is Laura. Liu has done a million things to help make Laura a fully realized character, but she has kept the very logical way that Laura speaks and communicates to people. Laura didn’t pussyfoot around it, she didn’t lead Julian on (even from the first scene I think Laura is clearly trying to distance herself from Julian. It just that, you know, there were dragons and shit to deal with. Also there were children to save which was foremost on Laura’s mind). So… how exactly was this out of character? It’s not like she said “Julian you are awful and I could never like you ever.” No. She told him very clearly, and in her normal Laura like manner that she didn’t feel the same way she did.
She was a complete and total c word to Julian...and didnt even bother giving him an explanation for the sudden 180 in terms of feeling she had for him...she was nothing less than cold...a whole 1 page later tho..shes able to express herself to Gambit? You cant say she wasn't written to communicate properly if she was able to do so with Gambit in the exact same book. I shouldn't have to sit here and explain all the times that Laura has expressed sorrow ar the mere thought of Julian getting hurt. She broke down in tears when kimura threatened to kill Julian. You'd never be able to tell by the way Liu wrote her.

As for a character development step back? I really have a problem with the logic here. Because, one of the most intrinsic elements to Laura (and one that I have talked and talked and talked about) is her selflessness. Laura always puts others and their happiness before her own.

If Laura was so selfless and put others feelings before her own..then why did she try and help the emotionally destroyed Julian keller who was reaching out to her? Instead she tells him he stinks, and that she isn't there to talk to him and walks away..... Julian was clearly unhappy and possibly even suicidal and she clearly acted like she did not care. By your own rational..does that not count as being out of character?

By the time X-Force was over, Laura had been a kid assassin, a prostitute, a clone, a cutter, put through intense torture, and she had been forced to go back to being a killer.

So from that, Liu had to try and address these issues and also make Laura a person. With thoughts and feelings and her own mind. Not just the character that writers seem to get off on making her life worse. She addressed the building blocks that Kyle/Yost put forth (Laura is selfless! She speaks in a particular way! She’s resilient!) and shemade Laura a person. While the series might be called X-23? It really should be called Laura Kinney, because the entire point of the series was about moving Laura away from her past and allowing her to grow and be a person.

And? Julian has had to deal with watching his best friend get blown up right in fron of his face, being mutilated multiple times, having the people who are supposed to look out for him threatnen him with imprisonment and death because he defne himself against a mahcine who was trying to murder him and others. Being disowned by his family because he refused to hide apart of himself, and having his mentor emma frost turn her back on him. And liu decided to get off by making his life worst...something you accuse other writers of doing to Laura. Also, you cant claim that Laura is the same uncommunicative person shes always been..and then say Liu has given her character development.
And that’s really what I want as a Laura fan. I want her to be happy. I want her to know what makes her happy, and to be able to go for it. If she would have been happy with Julian, fine. But the fact that Liu says she isn’t happy with him? It shows the same development for her. If he doesn’t make her happy, she shouldn’t stay. Bar none. But the fact that Liu says she isn’t happy with him? It shows the same development for her. If he doesn’t make her happy, she shouldn’t stay. Bar none.
In some ways I think this stems from people caring about the ship of Julian/Laura more than… Laura herself. Which is irksome. If you really cared about Laura? I think you’d realize just how much this run has been positive for her and her character development.

So Liu deciding that Laura is better off without Julian means that's it's ok to assassinate Julian's character? They could have broken up applicably...instead she opted for character assassination to make Laura look more grown up. Thats not character development. Did she even bother mentioning Julian and how important he was to her? Or how important her friends were? No, she made i9t seem like these relationships never existed. Something that carried over into Avengers Academy.



And, honestly, Laura deserves to be with a nice guy like Ken over being with the douche that Julian has become. If Julian goes back to being the way he was before? Great. I think I could ship it again. But as it stands? No. Sorry.

.....Liu is the one who turned Julian into a douche in the first place.And Liu had a chance to help Julian get back to the way he was before..but she wasn't interested in that. She wanted to have Laura Burn all her bridges with the xmen so she would jump ship to AA..where there she talks about how she was never friends with all those kids who saved her life..and cared for her.


One more thing— if you choose to be annoyed at the fact that Laura told Julian in a straightforward manner that she has no feelings for him, but NOT be annoyed that Julian called Laura an unfeeling robot? I think you need to check yourself.

She told him she had no feelings for him...right after acting like she didn't care if he offed himself or not...while all he did was try and get his friend to talk to him...i would have called her an unfeeling robot too.

If that is how you feel. I see it completely different.

#9 Posted by Kairan1979 (16701 posts) - - Show Bio

@why_you_mad_tho said:

@x_29:

But, anyway, somewhere along the line Julian has been written as an angry asshole. It seems to be the consensus that he should be written that way. However, this is not something that Liu put forth. She didn’t cut off his arms, she didn’t make him an angry dick, she didn’t make him a bully. Mike Carey is the one you should have beef with, not Liu. This is the Julian the folks at Marvel are giving us. It may not be the Julian we want, the kid we saw grow up in New X-Men, but it’s what we’ve got. So I think if you’re mad at Liu for what Julian has unfortunately become in the X-verse? It’s a little silly— it’s not her fault that everyone has decided that Julian should be a douche.


Julian wasnt a bully even when he got his hands cut off. Just angry. Theres a differnce between being angry that your teachers are hypocrites, don't show any interest in helping you an all treat you like you're a burden... and being told you're so called messiah cant help you, even tho you lost your hands fighting for her life. I'd be angry too. What Liu did was turn Hellion into, an insecure, obsessive, stalker with wife beater qualities. She could have just ended it all after the emasculation of Julian by Laura in the AIBS arc. But no...she just had to have Julian in X- 23 #21(?) stalkking Laura from behind trees while he gets called creepy....It added nothing to the story... She continued to assassinate his character for no reason at all. Julian at this point had semi redeemed by helping Rogue save Ariel's life..that was all thrown away once Liu got her hands on Julian. Liu was the only person i saw writing Julian as a douche. I blame Liu 100% for how SHE wrote Keller. She didn't cut off his arms..just his balls.

And now we move onto Laura. Because I’ve seen people think that A) Laura acted out of character or B) somehow Laura choosing not to be with Julian is a setback to her character development.
To the former, I have to call false. Was what Laura said hurtful to Julian? Sure. It sucks being broken up with. It sucks when you have someone you care deeply for that says they don’t feel the same way. But, the very matter-of-fact way that she told him? That just is Laura. Liu has done a million things to help make Laura a fully realized character, but she has kept the very logical way that Laura speaks and communicates to people. Laura didn’t pussyfoot around it, she didn’t lead Julian on (even from the first scene I think Laura is clearly trying to distance herself from Julian. It just that, you know, there were dragons and shit to deal with. Also there were children to save which was foremost on Laura’s mind). So… how exactly was this out of character? It’s not like she said “Julian you are awful and I could never like you ever.” No. She told him very clearly, and in her normal Laura like manner that she didn’t feel the same way she did.
She was a complete and total c word to Julian...and didnt even bother giving him an explanation for the sudden 180 in terms of feeling she had for him...she was nothing less than cold...a whole 1 page later tho..shes able to express herself to Gambit? You cant say she wasn't written to communicate properly if she was able to do so with Gambit in the exact same book. I shouldn't have to sit here and explain all the times that Laura has expressed sorrow ar the mere thought of Julian getting hurt. She broke down in tears when kimura threatened to kill Julian. You'd never be able to tell by the way Liu wrote her.

As for a character development step back? I really have a problem with the logic here. Because, one of the most intrinsic elements to Laura (and one that I have talked and talked and talked about) is her selflessness. Laura always puts others and their happiness before her own.

If Laura was so selfless and put others feelings before her own..then why did she try and help the emotionally destroyed Julian keller who was reaching out to her? Instead she tells him he stinks, and that she isn't there to talk to him and walks away..... Julian was clearly unhappy and possibly even suicidal and she clearly acted like she did not care. By your own rational..does that not count as being out of character?

By the time X-Force was over, Laura had been a kid assassin, a prostitute, a clone, a cutter, put through intense torture, and she had been forced to go back to being a killer.

So from that, Liu had to try and address these issues and also make Laura a person. With thoughts and feelings and her own mind. Not just the character that writers seem to get off on making her life worse. She addressed the building blocks that Kyle/Yost put forth (Laura is selfless! She speaks in a particular way! She’s resilient!) and shemade Laura a person. While the series might be called X-23? It really should be called Laura Kinney, because the entire point of the series was about moving Laura away from her past and allowing her to grow and be a person.

And? Julian has had to deal with watching his best friend get blown up right in fron of his face, being mutilated multiple times, having the people who are supposed to look out for him threatnen him with imprisonment and death because he defne himself against a mahcine who was trying to murder him and others. Being disowned by his family because he refused to hide apart of himself, and having his mentor emma frost turn her back on him. And liu decided to get off by making his life worst...something you accuse other writers of doing to Laura. Also, you cant claim that Laura is the same uncommunicative person shes always been..and then say Liu has given her character development.
And that’s really what I want as a Laura fan. I want her to be happy. I want her to know what makes her happy, and to be able to go for it. If she would have been happy with Julian, fine. But the fact that Liu says she isn’t happy with him? It shows the same development for her. If he doesn’t make her happy, she shouldn’t stay. Bar none. But the fact that Liu says she isn’t happy with him? It shows the same development for her. If he doesn’t make her happy, she shouldn’t stay. Bar none.
In some ways I think this stems from people caring about the ship of Julian/Laura more than… Laura herself. Which is irksome. If you really cared about Laura? I think you’d realize just how much this run has been positive for her and her character development.

So Liu deciding that Laura is better off without Julian means that's it's ok to assassinate Julian's character? They could have broken up applicably...instead she opted for character assassination to make Laura look more grown up. Thats not character development. Did she even bother mentioning Julian and how important he was to her? Or how important her friends were? No, she made i9t seem like these relationships never existed. Something that carried over into Avengers Academy.



And, honestly, Laura deserves to be with a nice guy like Ken over being with the douche that Julian has become. If Julian goes back to being the way he was before? Great. I think I could ship it again. But as it stands? No. Sorry.

.....Liu is the one who turned Julian into a douche in the first place.And Liu had a chance to help Julian get back to the way he was before..but she wasn't interested in that. She wanted to have Laura Burn all her bridges with the xmen so she would jump ship to AA..where there she talks about how she was never friends with all those kids who saved her life..and cared for her.


One more thing— if you choose to be annoyed at the fact that Laura told Julian in a straightforward manner that she has no feelings for him, but NOT be annoyed that Julian called Laura an unfeeling robot? I think you need to check yourself.

She told him she had no feelings for him...right after acting like she didn't care if he offed himself or not...while all he did was try and get his friend to talk to him...i would have called her an unfeeling robot too.

I agree with you.

#10 Posted by Tchokes (81 posts) - - Show Bio

@why_you_mad_tho said:

.....Liu is the one who turned Julian into a douche in the first place.And Liu had a chance to help Julian get back to the way he was before..but she wasn't interested in that. She wanted to have Laura Burn all her bridges with the xmen so she would jump ship to AA..where there she talks about how she was never friends with all those kids who saved her life..and cared for her.

Okay, this is fucked. I remember this line and it pissed me to no end. Cessily Kincaid (people might not remember her) was Laura's best friend for quite some time. She tried to reach into Laura's human side, and treated her like a girl when everyone was being hostile to her. Julian and her also had a ton of development, and for Laura to say that... it was shit writting. Seriously, and not only that, it was a slap to the face to anyone who believes that comic book 'characters' are worthy of any attention or following. These writers are just way too disrespectful to them for Laura, Julian or Cessily to be thought as characters.

#11 Posted by x_29 (2272 posts) - - Show Bio

@Tchokes said:

@why_you_mad_tho said:

.....Liu is the one who turned Julian into a douche in the first place.And Liu had a chance to help Julian get back to the way he was before..but she wasn't interested in that. She wanted to have Laura Burn all her bridges with the xmen so she would jump ship to AA..where there she talks about how she was never friends with all those kids who saved her life..and cared for her.

Okay, this is fucked. I remember this line and it pissed me to no end. Cessily Kincaid (people might not remember her) was Laura's best friend for quite some time. She tried to reach into Laura's human side, and treated her like a girl when everyone was being hostile to her. Julian and her also had a ton of development, and for Laura to say that... it was shit writting. Seriously, and not only that, it was a slap to the face to anyone who believes that comic book 'characters' are worthy of any attention or following. These writers are just way too disrespectful to them for Laura, Julian or Cessily to be thought as characters.

Actually it was the writers before Liu, particularly after second coming, that turned Jullian into a douche in the first place. It is still entertaining to see fangirls to find excuses.

#12 Posted by Gawdzilla (376 posts) - - Show Bio

I think its bad writing when you go from a girl who basically will do anything to keep you safe (ie kill) then go to someone who says that there is NOTHING between them is bad writing. Yes Julian has been majorly mishandled by Marvel. But first off don't blame Mike Carey for Julian. He had a plan for Jules, but alas he never got a chance too see it through.

But going back to the topic at hand (hehehe), if she had told Julian what she had told Gambit I think a lot of people would less angry with the whole situation. But How in a span of maybe a dozen issues you go from risking your soul/killing someone/ect to saying there is nothing between them.

Just my opinion. I personally think Liu is a great writer, but the stuff she's put out in the last year and a half too two years has just been bad. Still love her work with Daken though.

#13 Edited by bsmith1190 (90 posts) - - Show Bio

Hey Helix fangirls wanna hear a secret? You see we men have things called feelings emotions if you will, and when a girl dumps us, those feelings they get hurt. And when we feel hurt we tend to throw rationality to the wind, lash out, and perhaps say things in the heat of the moment that we don't mean. In other words Hellion acted like any guy would when a girl dumps him, so no Liu did not make him the bad guy as that firebrand Onelildustbunni/K2 would have you think. (In fact the only argument she has that holds any water is that the break up was necessary) And in case you forgot what the whole point of the X-23 series was it was for Laura to change and guess what? She can realize that she doesn't feel the same about Julian like she used to after being away for like several months. (BTW He still means something to her just not the same) Now what you all seem to not realize is that this was NOT your book. This was Margerie Liu's book and she got to do what she wanted with it. Now I will admit that Jason Aaron messed up with Hellion (seriously I find Hellion as dull as dishwater and even I think he deserves some redemption), but as far Liu's concerned she did nothing wrong with the break up. As the Eagles put it:

#14 Posted by x_29 (2272 posts) - - Show Bio

@bsmith1190 said:

Hey Helix fangirls wanna hear a secret? You see we men have things called feelings emotions if you will, and when a girl dumps us, those feelings they get hurt. And when we feel hurt we tend to throw rationality to the wind, lash out, and perhaps say things in the heat of the moment that we don't mean. In other words Hellion acted like any guy would when a girl dumps him, so no Liu did not make him the bad guy as that firebrand Onelildustbunni/K2 would have you think. (In fact the only argument she has that holds any water is that the break up was necessary) And in case you forgot what the whole point of the X-23 series was it was for Laura to change and guess what? She can realize that she doesn't feel the same about Julian like she used to after being away for like several months. (BTW He still means something to her just not the same) Now what you all seem to not realize is that this was NOT your book. This was Margerie Liu's book and she got to do what she wanted with it. Now I will admit that Jason Aaron messed up with Hellion (seriously I find Hellion as dull as dishwater and even I think he deserves some redemption), but as far Liu's concerned she did nothing wrong with the break up. As the Eagles put it:

THIS! OVER 9000!

#15 Edited by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

@x_29 said:

@bsmith1190 said:

Hey Helix fangirls wanna hear a secret? You see we men have things called feelings emotions if you will, and when a girl dumps us, those feelings they get hurt. And when we feel hurt we tend to throw rationality to the wind, lash out, and perhaps say things in the heat of the moment that we don't mean. In other words Hellion acted like any guy would when a girl dumps him, so no Liu did not make him the bad guy as that firebrand Onelildustbunni/K2 would have you think. (In fact the only argument she has that holds any water is that the break up was necessary) And in case you forgot what the whole point of the X-23 series was it was for Laura to change and guess what? She can realize that she doesn't feel the same about Julian like she used to after being away for like several months. (BTW He still means something to her just not the same) Now what you all seem to not realize is that this was NOT your book. This was Margerie Liu's book and she got to do what she wanted with it. Now I will admit that Jason Aaron messed up with Hellion (seriously I find Hellion as dull as dishwater and even I think he deserves some redemption), but as far Liu's concerned she did nothing wrong with the break up. As the Eagles put it:

THIS! OVER 9000!

I didn't realise that normal teenage guys physically lash out at a girl who dumps them and then proceed to stalk her afterwards.

#16 Posted by x_29 (2272 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@x_29 said:

@bsmith1190 said:

Hey Helix fangirls wanna hear a secret? You see we men have things called feelings emotions if you will, and when a girl dumps us, those feelings they get hurt. And when we feel hurt we tend to throw rationality to the wind, lash out, and perhaps say things in the heat of the moment that we don't mean. In other words Hellion acted like any guy would when a girl dumps him, so no Liu did not make him the bad guy as that firebrand Onelildustbunni/K2 would have you think. (In fact the only argument she has that holds any water is that the break up was necessary) And in case you forgot what the whole point of the X-23 series was it was for Laura to change and guess what? She can realize that she doesn't feel the same about Julian like she used to after being away for like several months. (BTW He still means something to her just not the same) Now what you all seem to not realize is that this was NOT your book. This was Margerie Liu's book and she got to do what she wanted with it. Now I will admit that Jason Aaron messed up with Hellion (seriously I find Hellion as dull as dishwater and even I think he deserves some redemption), but as far Liu's concerned she did nothing wrong with the break up. As the Eagles put it:

THIS! OVER 9000!

I didn't realise that normal teenage guys physically lash out at a girl who dumps them and then proceed to stalk her afterwards.

Yep. It is worse when that guy had his arms cut off.

#17 Posted by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

@x_29 said:

@John Valentine said:

@x_29 said:

@bsmith1190 said:

Hey Helix fangirls wanna hear a secret? You see we men have things called feelings emotions if you will, and when a girl dumps us, those feelings they get hurt. And when we feel hurt we tend to throw rationality to the wind, lash out, and perhaps say things in the heat of the moment that we don't mean. In other words Hellion acted like any guy would when a girl dumps him, so no Liu did not make him the bad guy as that firebrand Onelildustbunni/K2 would have you think. (In fact the only argument she has that holds any water is that the break up was necessary) And in case you forgot what the whole point of the X-23 series was it was for Laura to change and guess what? She can realize that she doesn't feel the same about Julian like she used to after being away for like several months. (BTW He still means something to her just not the same) Now what you all seem to not realize is that this was NOT your book. This was Margerie Liu's book and she got to do what she wanted with it. Now I will admit that Jason Aaron messed up with Hellion (seriously I find Hellion as dull as dishwater and even I think he deserves some redemption), but as far Liu's concerned she did nothing wrong with the break up. As the Eagles put it:

THIS! OVER 9000!

I didn't realise that normal teenage guys physically lash out at a girl who dumps them and then proceed to stalk her afterwards.

Yep. It is worse when that guy had his arms cut off.

People don't do that. Liu is crap.

#18 Posted by x_29 (2272 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@x_29 said:

@John Valentine said:

@x_29 said:

@bsmith1190 said:

Hey Helix fangirls wanna hear a secret? You see we men have things called feelings emotions if you will, and when a girl dumps us, those feelings they get hurt. And when we feel hurt we tend to throw rationality to the wind, lash out, and perhaps say things in the heat of the moment that we don't mean. In other words Hellion acted like any guy would when a girl dumps him, so no Liu did not make him the bad guy as that firebrand Onelildustbunni/K2 would have you think. (In fact the only argument she has that holds any water is that the break up was necessary) And in case you forgot what the whole point of the X-23 series was it was for Laura to change and guess what? She can realize that she doesn't feel the same about Julian like she used to after being away for like several months. (BTW He still means something to her just not the same) Now what you all seem to not realize is that this was NOT your book. This was Margerie Liu's book and she got to do what she wanted with it. Now I will admit that Jason Aaron messed up with Hellion (seriously I find Hellion as dull as dishwater and even I think he deserves some redemption), but as far Liu's concerned she did nothing wrong with the break up. As the Eagles put it:

THIS! OVER 9000!

I didn't realise that normal teenage guys physically lash out at a girl who dumps them and then proceed to stalk her afterwards.

Yep. It is worse when that guy had his arms cut off.

People don't do that. Liu is crap.

Clearly, you are not from this planet.

#19 Posted by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

@x_29:

Clearly you have a warped view of normality if you think people react to being dumped by being physically abusive to and start stalking the person who dumped them.

#20 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

It gets to a point where it becomes funny.

Upwards and onwards.

#21 Posted by x_29 (2272 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine said:

@x_29:

Clearly you have a warped view of normality if you think people react to being dumped by being physically abusive to and start stalking the person who dumped them.

You do realize there are people who DO that? Not everyone, but it is common.

#22 Edited by bsmith1190 (90 posts) - - Show Bio

Stick this your craw Helix

http://hoodedcrow-2010.deviantart.com/art/What-I-think-of-Helix-343885485

#23 Posted by akbogert (3180 posts) - - Show Bio

@bsmith1190: Did you seriously dig up a three-month old thread for the sole purpose of trolling?

Anyhow, I'm a fan of Laura + Foley (I refuse to ever use the word "ship"), so I don't think I'll ever be too upset about the breakup, but it did seem a little bit sudden given what the two had just gone through. My issue with Liu's run had more to do with how bipolar it was, between interesting, Laura-building stuff and random, almost silly stuff. I preferred Kyle/Yost's run (hey, what can I say, I like when creators write their creations) but in Liu's defense, Laura's "HOW COULD THEY?!" bit during the Daken sideplot is one of my favorite moments for her, ever.

#24 Posted by Ellie_Knightfall (4818 posts) - - Show Bio

Helix was terrible from the get-go.

#25 Posted by DarkxSeraph (672 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly... I think the relationship had great potential. Am I upset that it ended? Yeah. In a way. I was pretty pissed when I read X-23 when they split.

However... The way Julian had been written to that point, I don't blame Laura for walking. His characterization was utterly terrible. The writers ignored all sense of growth to him and turned him into the bitter, emo, class bully-- oh, and let's not forget WatXM when he said that he came back to the school for 'The chicks and the action.'

Please.

I would, however, like to see them even out Hellion again and develop a friendship between the two. Would I like to see them back together? Yes. They brought good things to one another. However, it should develop organically again, and not be forced.

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