Marjorie Liu or Craig Kyle and Christopher Yost - who's better?

#1 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

Having Marjorie Liu finished her journey with X23 (at least for this time) how about summarizing the whole effort of writing X23's stories by both Liu and Kyle and Yost. Who's better, who did a good job on which subject and what you liked most in stories of those writers?

#2 Posted by Caligula (12417 posts) - - Show Bio

I've only read Liu's so i can't compare.

#3 Edited by AgeofHurricane (7301 posts) - - Show Bio

To be honest no one can exactly compare, Kyle and Yost (mainly Yost) are the ones who made X-23 who she is and plus, they had more time to develop her character, Liu's just building up on the foundation that's already been made and she's only had the time to do anything with Laura for like 1 and a half years give or take.

#4 Posted by Steps (657 posts) - - Show Bio

@AgeofHurricane said:

To be honest no one can exactly compare, Kyle and Yost (mainly Yost) are the ones who made X-23 who she is and plus, they had more time to develop her character, Liu's just building up on the foundation that's already been made and she's only had the time to do anything with Laure for like 1 and a hald years give or take.

This

#5 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

@AgeofHurricane said:

To be honest no one can exactly compare, Kyle and Yost (mainly Yost) are the ones who made X-23 who she is and plus, they had more time to develop her character, Liu's just building up on the foundation that's already been made and she's only had the time to do anything with Laure for like 1 and a hald years give or take.

I must agree, but comparing those two works, I must say that she did a lot of changes not to X23 herself, but to the story. Less action is one thing, but one thing that I loved in the Kyle Yost series that is absent in Liu's series was that kinda spy-action thriller atmoshere. she was made a hired killer - and she was one in the right sense. Assasinating important politics and leaders, continous fight not with monsters, but with trained mercenaries, assasins and terrorists (purifiers), and being the target of of such organisation like Shield (something like being pursuited by CIA). I even liked the role of Captain america as her judge - like if she was put before the court of justice for her killing (and at some times) terrorist acts. For me, except the psychological nature of story, it was the greatest feature of her stories and the feature that made me a fan of her. With Liu on board her stories became more fantasy, science-fiction oriented. It's all about me that I don't like such stories, so don't feel offended.

#6 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

The second thing that I didn’t like In Liu’s stories was her method of making a story, where some plot where continued, some where pulled back just to reveal them later, but some where left unsolved. At the begging of the series there was a situation when she woke up in a burning building with bodies everywhere, she met the devil and later she was accused by a survivor for killing all those people. I haven’t seen any outcome of this plot. It was just forgotten.

#7 Posted by danhimself (22624 posts) - - Show Bio

Yost and Kyle without a doubt

#8 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

Both Liu and the K&Y team excelled at different traits of writing. The K&Y stories were much more edge-of-the-seat thrilling. I didn't like Liu's plots so much, but she developed Laura's personality quite a bit. Not always in the right way. Still, it's hard to compare. The best writer--in my opinion--would do a blend of both methods. K&Y action, but with a bit more characterization for Laura.

#9 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

@k2 said:

Both Liu and the K&Y team excelled at different traits of writing. The K&Y stories were much more edge-of-the-seat thrilling. I didn't like Liu's plots so much, but she developed Laura's personality quite a bit. Not always in the right way. Still, it's hard to compare. The best writer--in my opinion--would do a blend of both methods. K&Y action, but with a bit more characterization for Laura.

Perhaps the most convincing theory. In my opinion X23 in terms of story and characterization has two features - action ( being a killer and having claws) and deep psychology (an opposite - tragedy of being a child made to kill). Judging by that, cooperation of Liu and the K&Y would make the greatest story for X23.

#10 Posted by Mayo88m (246 posts) - - Show Bio

I like them all for different reasons, but I lean more towards Kyle/Yost. Their stories are what got me hooked on X-23, and I love them. Target X is one of m favorite TPBs, and I loved their X-Force run even if a lot of people hated it. Liu is good, I liked the new direction she too Laura in, but like you said, she left some things dangling. Mainly the very first story arcs plot, and I hated the way she handled Laura and Hellion's relationship. Should they have gotten together? Maybe, maybe not, but the way she severed it was just so... out of left field I thought. I do still think that the end of her run had a lot to do with the decision though, and can't really fault her personally for it, but it does count against her run.

#11 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mayo88m said:

I like them all for different reasons, but I lean more towards Kyle/Yost. Their stories are what got me hooked on X-23, and I love them. Target X is one of m favorite TPBs, and I loved their X-Force run even if a lot of people hated it. Liu is good, I liked the new direction she too Laura in, but like you said, she left some things dangling. Mainly the very first story arcs plot, and I hated the way she handled Laura and Hellion's relationship. Should they have gotten together? Maybe, maybe not, but the way she severed it was just so... out of left field I thought. I do still think that the end of her run had a lot to do with the decision though, and can't really fault her personally for it, but it does count against her run.

a lot of people really hated X-Force?! I must say that this series was like a drug for me. I've never been so much addicted to a story, just couldn't stop reading.

#12 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33897 posts) - - Show Bio
@ambival1 said:

@Mayo88m said:

I like them all for different reasons, but I lean more towards Kyle/Yost. Their stories are what got me hooked on X-23, and I love them. Target X is one of m favorite TPBs, and I loved their X-Force run even if a lot of people hated it. Liu is good, I liked the new direction she too Laura in, but like you said, she left some things dangling. Mainly the very first story arcs plot, and I hated the way she handled Laura and Hellion's relationship. Should they have gotten together? Maybe, maybe not, but the way she severed it was just so... out of left field I thought. I do still think that the end of her run had a lot to do with the decision though, and can't really fault her personally for it, but it does count against her run.

a lot of people really hated X-Force?! I must say that this series was like a drug for me. I've never been so much addicted to a story, just couldn't stop reading.

I don't think any one hated it, it's just some people did't like the art.
#13 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

@spiderbat87 said:

@ambival1 said:

@Mayo88m said:

I like them all for different reasons, but I lean more towards Kyle/Yost. Their stories are what got me hooked on X-23, and I love them. Target X is one of m favorite TPBs, and I loved their X-Force run even if a lot of people hated it. Liu is good, I liked the new direction she too Laura in, but like you said, she left some things dangling. Mainly the very first story arcs plot, and I hated the way she handled Laura and Hellion's relationship. Should they have gotten together? Maybe, maybe not, but the way she severed it was just so... out of left field I thought. I do still think that the end of her run had a lot to do with the decision though, and can't really fault her personally for it, but it does count against her run.

a lot of people really hated X-Force?! I must say that this series was like a drug for me. I've never been so much addicted to a story, just couldn't stop reading.

I don't think any one hated it, it's just some people did't like the art.

I liked the art very much, it was so dark and dirty, especially in those bloody scenes.

#14 Posted by CATPANEXE (9368 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, what was already said. Yost's time involved and volume of work period makes there no fair comparison. Liu's work was still good in it's own right, but she hasn't had the overall time involved (sadly) to make a real statement.

#15 Posted by Mayo88m (246 posts) - - Show Bio

@ambival1 said:

@spiderbat87 said:

@ambival1 said:

@Mayo88m said:

I like them all for different reasons, but I lean more towards Kyle/Yost. Their stories are what got me hooked on X-23, and I love them. Target X is one of m favorite TPBs, and I loved their X-Force run even if a lot of people hated it. Liu is good, I liked the new direction she too Laura in, but like you said, she left some things dangling. Mainly the very first story arcs plot, and I hated the way she handled Laura and Hellion's relationship. Should they have gotten together? Maybe, maybe not, but the way she severed it was just so... out of left field I thought. I do still think that the end of her run had a lot to do with the decision though, and can't really fault her personally for it, but it does count against her run.

a lot of people really hated X-Force?! I must say that this series was like a drug for me. I've never been so much addicted to a story, just couldn't stop reading.

I don't think any one hated it, it's just some people did't like the art.

I liked the art very much, it was so dark and dirty, especially in those bloody scenes.

I've never heard anyone complain about the art, but I've heard lots of people complain about the story. Especially since it had a lot to do with the lead up to Second Coming. (Which I also loved.) I think it was the coolest run on comics I've ever read too though. Actually the X-Force Hardcover collection was the first comic I bought in a long time about a year and a half ago. It's what got me back into comics after so long.

#16 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

I loved the X-Force for that serious story, but mainly for that amount of effort put on X23's persona. She wanted to sacrifice her life to destroy the virus, but then it came out, that she wanted to justify her suicide, cause she didn't care about herself knowing that she's a clone, a copy of someone. I was very sad, I nearly cried, but the perfect moment was after the confrontation with kimura - how she could go to town even with one arm cut off. That was sick, Kill Bill loses the match. K&Y really pushed X23's potential to the limits (for a brief moment I really thought that she's more serious and brutal than wolverine) and they still kept that Innocent child = killing machine dilemma.

#17 Posted by rokusan23 (146 posts) - - Show Bio

Kyle and Yost, oh my Lord. They made me sob like a child lost in a mall. Seriously, they write so... raw. It was something I havent seen before (and I have read a lot). Target X was the comic that brought me in the whole gig.

I still have issues with Alex Cimini :/ Liu should've used Henry (Rice's kid) instead. That would've made more impact. The kid of the bastard who made her life hell? Forgiven like that? My tears would've ran for days. But, meh, no... I think I've moved on with Hellion and X-23's relationship (though I've been at it for, like, ever) because I think its hard to pull them together again. And with the way things are going, they might have other romantic interests. I still like those two, they were epic during the New X-men, it was like... Kite minus the cliffhanger or Elfen Lied without the fan service. If ever, I still look forward to them, but I'm not holding my breath.

Liu had a nice touch by making Gambit her Jiminy Cricket. He was perfect for it, or maybe I'm bias because I like Gambit. However, I was actually waiting for Kimura to show... or Cess :/ At least Cess xD They were BFFs. You cant just omit her BFF.

Through her book, I wasnt entirely sure of what Laura was "hurting" over. Her friends sort of abandoned her or her being a clone? After meeting up with Daken then leaving Madripoor, she made quite a resolve for herself. "What she has to prove has nothing to prove with power" and at the end "she chooses life"... next issue, she's depressed again and starts cutting herself. Say what?

Or maybe that's just me.

#18 Posted by frogjitsu (481 posts) - - Show Bio

@ambival1 said:

In my opinion X23 in terms of story and characterization has two features - action ( being a killer and having claws) and deep psychology (an opposite - tragedy of being a child made to kill). Judging by that, cooperation of Liu and the K&Y would make the greatest story for X23.

#19 Posted by thatlad (595 posts) - - Show Bio

Difficult one as Liu's work has been the best coming out of marvel in 2011(aside from x-force), her character development s fantastic. I'd pick yost/Kyle though, here's my reason: I can't think of one particular story or thing that happened in x-23's run. There were a lot of storylines but nothing really happenned. Yet when I think of Yost/Kyle I thi of the facility stories, nimrod, killing her mum, her reactions to the new x-men, second coming (that alpha tea, was hard as nails), the first x-force story where she nearly kills wolfsbane. Liu beats all these stories hands down for character development but theres never been any big fights and fun stories that stack up against Kyle/Yost. If I saw the book on the shelf I'd pick Yost/Kyle

#20 Posted by jhazzroucher (16133 posts) - - Show Bio

Yost. He's a really, really good and skilled writer and dreamer.

#21 Posted by John Valentine (16310 posts) - - Show Bio

Kyle and Yost, straight down.

#22 Posted by xerox_kitty (15762 posts) - - Show Bio

@danhimself said:

Yost and Kyle without a doubt

Amen to that!

God knows I've tried to read Liu's 'solo' X-23. I've tried again & again, and I can't bring myself to put myself through that rubbish any more.

Moderator
#23 Posted by Wishful_Thinker (77 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to agree with everyone. Kyle & Yost. Liu doesn't know how to finish a plot and left too many new elements untouched. (That woman in the cloak, the idea of Logan adopting her, her kill list, etc.)

Kyle & Yost have you gripping your seat where with Liu, yes she vaguely developed her personality, but the plots itself were meh.

#24 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

Marjorie Liu all the way. I really loved what she has done with X-23.

#25 Posted by Gawdzilla (376 posts) - - Show Bio

X-23 grew a lot under Liu (some good soome bad IMO) and she deserves a lot of credit for that. Example: X-23 likes spicy foods, don't believe me? Go reread several issues and its clear that she's developed a taste for spicy foods. This was good because it showed that X-23 was developing social habits. When she goes out with others now and if they ask her what kind of food she likes she can tell them she likes spicy foods. Its the little things.

But that being said Yost and Kyle created her and molded her in "Innocence Lost', "Target X", "New X-Men" & "X-Force". They laid some great ground work that Liu could have used but instead she decided to ignore it. Example: Mercury. From NXM on Mercury has been X-23's self-proclaimed BFF. Liu ignored it completely and decided to use Jubilee instead. I think Liu's major weakness is that she projected too much of herself into X-23. In many ways Liu's run on X-23 was just a huge fanfic starring X-23, Gambit, Jubilee and Wolverine. That being said, everyone's writer's book is pretty much a fanfic, but in several ways Liu's run had the markings of a bad fanfic.

#26 Posted by fernandezluigi (17 posts) - - Show Bio

Definately Kyle and Yost. Liu's stories are nice but she made X-23's stories less actiony.

#27 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

@fernandezluigi: Thats what made Liu's stories great. It was more focusing on her as a character than the need for her to tear a whole lot of stuff up in every second of an issue.

#28 Posted by War Killer (20340 posts) - - Show Bio

I like all three.

#29 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

@x_29: But Kyle and Yost's stories weren't less about X23's personality. Innocence Lost had great story, but it's the Target X' story I consider as the best story focusing on the x23 herself. On ongoing series she wanted to find what she want and what she is like. She tried it already in Target X, because of Megan wanting to show her the life of an teenage girl. It was brief, but distinct. She cried several times (after leaving Megan and after discovering her mother's letter). It proved that she is not a machine like and has emotions, the same subject is the main theme of ongoing series. I like how Liu portrays X23, but Spy-assassin oriented plot it's also an element that portrays X. It shows that she is not just a beast with claws, but a highly trained assassin with mentality and ruthlessness of an assassin. On ongoing series that subject was shallowed, making a simple picture of a dark troubled female hero.

#30 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

@ambival1: I respectfully disagree.

#31 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

@x_29: On what part? I may have gone too far with that troubled dark hero, but other seems clear. She has claws and made to be a killer, so in other words she is an action character, but her personality (and especially the comparison of her gender and harsh subject matter) gives a lot of psychological reflections. Those two define her and getting rid of one of those subjects really harms the character.

#32 Posted by Supreme Marvel (11266 posts) - - Show Bio

Although I'm a DC reader, the majority of Marvel comics I've read are from Kyle & Yost. That is because I like their comics. Even though I've not read X23 series I'm willing to bet, K&C is better.

#33 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, hard to complain about her writing style:

Marjorie M. Liu is a New York Times best-selling author of paranormal romance and urban fantasy novels and comic books.

X23 now is more like that fantasy-paranormal romance with some action. She just wrote X23's stories in her own individual style.

#34 Posted by ReVamp (22865 posts) - - Show Bio

@ambival1 said:

Well, hard to complain about her writing style:

Marjorie M. Liu is a New York Times best-selling author of paranormal romance and urban fantasy novels and comic books.

X23 now is more like that fantasy-paranormal romance with some action. She just wrote X23's stories in her own individual style.

Which is horrible.

#35 Posted by xenatorres (8 posts) - - Show Bio

As far as I am concerned, only Kyle and Yost should write X-23. Everyone else seems to just....suck at it. Liu has been the best effort, but even so, there were so many things she did in the X-23 series that really drove me nuts and didn't really work: X-23 being some sort of super empath, incorrectly showing Sarah Kinney's treatment of X-23 (covered so AMAZINGLY in "Innocence Lost"), X-23's trigger scent being made into some 'magical' scent that now drives anyone into a rage (it's not a magic chemical that makes her go crazy, it's because she associates the smell with being tortured - it's a Pavlov's bell sort of thing). That being said, I have also really loved a lot of what Liu wrote. I love Gambit's protection of Laura. I truly LOVED the Jubilee issues (aside from messing with the trigger scent of course).

But I miss Kyle and Yost at the helm of their creation. No one knows her like they do. Anyone else is always going to be second fiddle to such writing GODS. ;)

#36 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

@xenatorres said:

As far as I am concerned, only Kyle and Yost should write X-23. Everyone else seems to just....suck at it. Liu has been the best effort, but even so, there were so many things she did in the X-23 series that really drove me nuts and didn't really work: X-23 being some sort of super empath, incorrectly showing Sarah Kinney's treatment of X-23 (covered so AMAZINGLY in "Innocence Lost"), X-23's trigger scent being made into some 'magical' scent that now drives anyone into a rage (it's not a magic chemical that makes her go crazy, it's because she associates the smell with being tortured - it's a Pavlov's bell sort of thing). That being said, I have also really loved a lot of what Liu wrote. I love Gambit's protection of Laura. I truly LOVED the Jubilee issues (aside from messing with the trigger scent of course).

But I miss Kyle and Yost at the helm of their creation. No one knows her like they do. Anyone else is always going to be second fiddle to such writing GODS. ;)

I too consider their writing being on a Godlike level. They fulfilled nearly every my dream in terms of a story and main female character. Everything they did was epic - being tortured, abused through all her child life, but still fighting for freedom and a chance to live; being able for a big sacrifice (like cutting her hand to help megan etc). There is also that spy-action vibe with mercenaries, hired assasins and Black Ops agents mixed with deep psychology and other symbolical elements. And putting a female character in such a story is something I've been looking for my entire life and Kyle and Yost fulfills my desire for such a story. Even that they are associated with Marvel, that superhero vibe is not as clear as in the other marvel comics, making her stories quite realistic, something like the Bourne's identity. Liu is writing is worse, because her X23 is less killer and more a troubled girl, but in my opinion there should be a perfect balance between these two traits - just a little disfunction in that balance and we have either a plain, shallow killer or an ordinary, troubled girl

#37 Posted by xenatorres (8 posts) - - Show Bio

@ambival1 said:

I too consider their writing being on a Godlike level. They fulfilled nearly every my dream in terms of a story and main female character. Everything they did was epic - being tortured, abused through all her child life, but still fighting for freedom and a chance to live; being able for a big sacrifice (like cutting her hand to help megan etc). There is also that spy-action vibe with mercenaries, hired assasins and Black Ops agents mixed with deep psychology and other symbolical elements. And putting a female character in such a story is something I've been looking for my entire life and Kyle and Yost fulfills my desire for such a story. Even that they are associated with Marvel, that superhero vibe is not as clear as in the other marvel comics, making her stories quite realistic, something like the Bourne's identity. Liu is writing is worse, because her X23 is less killer and more a troubled girl, but in my opinion there should be a perfect balance between these two traits - just a little disfunction in that balance and we have either a plain, shallow killer or an ordinary, troubled girl

I agree that Kyle and Yost do a far superior job of mixing X-23/trained assassin, with Laura Kinney/troubled teen. This isn't to say I didn't like anything Liu did - I did enjoy a lot of her work, but I was frustrated with certain things that went against what was already established by Kyle and Yost, and also felt the troubled teen issues were a little TOO extended.

My main issues with the X-23 series (besides the art - ick) were:

1) That X-23 was some sort of hyper empath. This was just such overkill to me. Like what Kyle and Yost wrote for her backstory wasn't brutal enough. Um....yes it was. She didn't need to be some sort of hyper empath to make what she went through terrible, nor does she need to be a hyper empath to want to change her life. For this same reason, she started to save people from this place of empathy rather than reacting like the trained killer she is, like when she saved people in New X-Men and X-Factor. I like the slow and realistic process of her growing as a human being that Kyle and Yost established. Like a real person recovering from a life of abuse. It just felt like a pointless addition that took away from X-23, didn't add to her. And that this led to the soul mark on her hand and that being sort of like Captain Universe was just...what?

2) X-23's trigger scent is not some magical chemical that makes her lose it: Hence it was REALLY LAME that it can now be used to make anyone lose it. The trigger scent, as established by Kyle and Yost is pretty much a Pavlov's bell situation. She was smelling that scent when tortured - so the smell makes her react to what she was suffering - hence her trigger scent rages. This cannot then be transformed to make other people go into killing rages - it's not that it's a chemical that makes it work - it's the CONDITIONING of the chemical. It's only a chemical in the sense that it's a created smell so they can control when she's smell it. It really wouldn't help them if they triggered her with the smell of hot dogs, now would it?

3) Sarah Kinney: "Innocence Lost" established how quickly Sarah understood that her daughter was a person, not a weapon - reading to her in the womb as a child, and constantly working to heal some of the damage being done by the Facility. How Liu represented her was in contradiction with how Kyle and Yost wrote her. This really bothered me.

Otherwise, for the most part, I enjoyed what Liu did, but she's not Kyle and Yost when it comes to X-23. No one writes Laura like they do - logically since they created her. And they are just bloody BRILLIANT in general. :D

#38 Posted by Kirateufel (25 posts) - - Show Bio

Kyle and Yost are the reasons that I love marvel.

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