Kinda dissapointed with the writing so far with X-23

#1 Posted by BIGLEBOWSKI (154 posts) - - Show Bio

Here you have this great character who can be the perfect killing machine, & what do they do constantly try to humanize her to make her vulnerable over & over & over again, it's a absolute complete waste of an amazing bad-ass

I'd like to see her on more execution squads doing what she does best. I just find it completely annoying how wolverine can go off on his own & kill a bunch of bikers or what ever with no body batting an eyelid.

While X-23 can't, she just doesn't belong on a team like the X-men team at all I think the only way to boost her character out of the whining emotional hole some writers have dug her is to have her do assassinations for nick fury or go totally lone gunman on the streets

Well just my opinion any how

#2 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually loved  X-23's book...

Moderator
#3 Posted by Mercy_ (92686 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro
I actually loved  X-23's book...
QFUT.
Moderator
#4 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Dark Huntress said:

@Vance Astro
I actually loved X-23's book...
QFUT.

Ditto.

#5 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm fine with the humanizing of Laura.I think you have to remember that although she was created as a weapon she's still a teenage girl on the flipside of that. Of course emotions will be involved.If they would just give her some more martial arts feats..she would really be awesome.I think the worse part of Marvel promoting her and Daken is that they probably don't ever plan to get rid of Wolverine so they will forever remain in his shadow and thus struggle with popularity.

Moderator
#6 Posted by CATPANEXE (9368 posts) - - Show Bio

@k2 said:

@The Dark Huntress said:

@Vance Astro
I actually loved X-23's book...
QFUT.

Ditto.

Signed on the dotted line.

#7 Posted by EnSabahNurX (2315 posts) - - Show Bio

@BIGLEBOWSKI said:

Here you have this great character who can be the perfect killing machine, & what do they do constantly try to humanize her to make her vulnerable over & over & over again, it's a absolute complete waste of an amazing bad-ass

I'd like to see her on more execution squads doing what she does best. I just find it completely annoying how wolverine can go off on his own & kill a bunch of bikers or what ever with no body batting an eyelid.

While X-23 can't, she just doesn't belong on a team like the X-men team at all I think the only way to boost her character out of the whining emotional hole some writers have dug her is to have her do assassinations for nick fury or go totally lone gunman on the streets

Well just my opinion any how

O_O Um so you just want her to be a completely shallow character? She wouldn't be interesting if she just killed and was an assassin, she would just be a generic merc. She's a 16 year old girl who wants to be more than just the killing machine the facility wanted her to be. If you came from an abusive household would you want to go back to that lifestyle or would you want to search for something more? Laura tried just being an assassin when she joined x-force but all that did was further disconnect her from the people she could have formed any sort of real relationship with and many turned against her.

I'm sorry but you think the only way to get Laura out of her "emotional hole" is to just have her kill?? I'm confused so you just want to skip her character development and jump straight to mindless killer O_O That's way too shallow a route to take her and she was already beginning to step out of her shell during the series. Of course she is going to be depressed, how would you feel if you killed your "mother", being tortured for years, forced to kill with the flip of a switch without any control, lived on the streets selling yourself to survive, seeing a possible future for one of your friend's where they were stripped of their personality and hooked to machines............etc

Of course Laura is occasionally mopey yet it makes sense and she was working past it and normally she is the strong silent character who goes head first into a situation, but she needs to learn how to be what she is, a 16 year old girl. Not to mention if you were a clone wouldn't you want to know if you were more than a science experiment? The concept of does Laura have a soul was a necessary thing someone would want to know if placed in her position.

I really enjoyed X-23's books, the book was more about the character's emotional development than her killing or the villain she was facing.

#8 Edited by BIGLEBOWSKI (154 posts) - - Show Bio

@EnSabahNurX said:

@BIGLEBOWSKI said:

Here you have this great character who can be the perfect killing machine, & what do they do constantly try to humanize her to make her vulnerable over & over & over again, it's a absolute complete waste of an amazing bad-ass

I'd like to see her on more execution squads doing what she does best. I just find it completely annoying how wolverine can go off on his own & kill a bunch of bikers or what ever with no body batting an eyelid.

While X-23 can't, she just doesn't belong on a team like the X-men team at all I think the only way to boost her character out of the whining emotional hole some writers have dug her is to have her do assassinations for nick fury or go totally lone gunman on the streets

Well just my opinion any how

O_O Um so you just want her to be a completely shallow character? She wouldn't be interesting if she just killed and was an assassin, she would just be a generic merc. She's a 16 year old girl who wants to be more than just the killing machine the facility wanted her to be. If you came from an abusive household would you want to go back to that lifestyle or would you want to search for something more? Laura tried just being an assassin when she joined x-force but all that did was further disconnect her from the people she could have formed any sort of real relationship with and many turned against her.

I'm sorry but you think the only way to get Laura out of her "emotional hole" is to just have her kill?? I'm confused so you just want to skip her character development and jump straight to mindless killer O_O That's way too shallow a route to take her and she was already beginning to step out of her shell during the series. Of course she is going to be depressed, how would you feel if you killed your "mother", being tortured for years, forced to kill with the flip of a switch without any control, lived on the streets selling yourself to survive, seeing a possible future for one of your friend's where they were stripped of their personality and hooked to machines............etc

Of course Laura is occasionally mopey yet it makes sense and she was working past it and normally she is the strong silent character who goes head first into a situation, but she needs to learn how to be what she is, a 16 year old girl. Not to mention if you were a clone wouldn't you want to know if you were more than a science experiment? The concept of does Laura have a soul was a necessary thing someone would want to know if placed in her position.

I really enjoyed X-23's books, the book was more about the character's emotional development than her killing or the villain she was facing.

Who said hired killers were shallow, if i was you i wouldn't hang around any soldiers coming back from Afghanistan for a while the tend to dislike getting stereotyped. Personally I think the Emo vulnerable anguished teen is way to a shallow a path to travel. There's no realism with the character pursuing a mopey tear jerking directing X-23 is way to tough.

I wouldn't be surprised to if the Emo angle was a method use to sell her comics to dissatisfied teens who relate to that (No offense meant) it's completely lacking in debt. In short a lot of the time violent highly combat trained people like her who come from abusive background become either very confrontational in their battles against it happening to other people or they become them selves abusers abuser's of other people.

What made X-23 so interesting in the first place was that she was a female clone of wolverine who proved that he had fierce competition for being the best at what they do although it's not very nice. X-23 is to young for her to be getting over her past shit like this & staring to come out of her shell, (SIGH!) I just get so disappointed with writers who take a perfectly written character then (WIR) (women in refrigerates) it up for sales. Mark my words x-23 is the best at what she does & what she does is not very nice

people have to deal with it like they deal with wolverine or there is just absolutely no point of a female version of wolverine in the first place

#9 Posted by Rod_The_Blade_Star (59 posts) - - Show Bio

@BIGLEBOWSKI said:

@EnSabahNurX said:

@BIGLEBOWSKI said:

Here you have this great character who can be the perfect killing machine, & what do they do constantly try to humanize her to make her vulnerable over & over & over again, it's a absolute complete waste of an amazing bad-ass

I'd like to see her on more execution squads doing what she does best. I just find it completely annoying how wolverine can go off on his own & kill a bunch of bikers or what ever with no body batting an eyelid.

While X-23 can't, she just doesn't belong on a team like the X-men team at all I think the only way to boost her character out of the whining emotional hole some writers have dug her is to have her do assassinations for nick fury or go totally lone gunman on the streets

Well just my opinion any how

O_O Um so you just want her to be a completely shallow character? She wouldn't be interesting if she just killed and was an assassin, she would just be a generic merc. She's a 16 year old girl who wants to be more than just the killing machine the facility wanted her to be. If you came from an abusive household would you want to go back to that lifestyle or would you want to search for something more? Laura tried just being an assassin when she joined x-force but all that did was further disconnect her from the people she could have formed any sort of real relationship with and many turned against her.

I'm sorry but you think the only way to get Laura out of her "emotional hole" is to just have her kill?? I'm confused so you just want to skip her character development and jump straight to mindless killer O_O That's way too shallow a route to take her and she was already beginning to step out of her shell during the series. Of course she is going to be depressed, how would you feel if you killed your "mother", being tortured for years, forced to kill with the flip of a switch without any control, lived on the streets selling yourself to survive, seeing a possible future for one of your friend's where they were stripped of their personality and hooked to machines............etc

Of course Laura is occasionally mopey yet it makes sense and she was working past it and normally she is the strong silent character who goes head first into a situation, but she needs to learn how to be what she is, a 16 year old girl. Not to mention if you were a clone wouldn't you want to know if you were more than a science experiment? The concept of does Laura have a soul was a necessary thing someone would want to know if placed in her position.

I really enjoyed X-23's books, the book was more about the character's emotional development than her killing or the villain she was facing.

Who said hired killers were shallow, if i was you i wouldn't hang around any soldiers coming back from Afghanistan for a while the tend to dislike getting stereotyped. Personally I think the Emo vulnerable anguished teen is way to a shallow a path to travel. There's no realism with the character pursuing a mopey tear jerking directing X-23 is way to tough.

I wouldn't be surprised to if the Emo angle was a method use to sell her comics to dissatisfied teens who relate to that (No offense meant) it's completely lacking in debt. In short a lot of the time violent highly combat trained people like her who come from abusive background become either very confrontational in their battles against it happening to other people or they become them selves abusers abuser's of other people.

What made X-23 so interesting in the first place was that she was a female clone of wolverine who proved that he had fierce competition for being the best at what they do although it's not very nice. X-23 is to young for her to be getting over her past shit like this & staring to come out of her shell, (SIGH!) I just get so disappointed with writers who take a perfectly written character then (WIR) (women in refrigerates) it up for sales. Mark my words x-23 is the best at what she does & what she does is not very nice

people have to deal with it like they deal with wolverine or there is just absolutely no point of a female version of wolverine in the first place

A key word you used is soldier, she is an assassin for hire, not a soldier, she does not have a squad to care about she does not get commendations for her works she just kills and waits to kill again. I do not believe soldier are shallow they put their lives on the line for their country and political stupidity. Mercenaries make money. For what it is worth I am sorry you character has been ruined for you, but it is not like they have shifted gears or anything, In her first animated appearances and her solo miniseries she was emotionally troubled by what she had to do. I like watching her become more human. Also she will probably be stuck as a teen forever so being too young is irrelevant in my mind. What made Laura interesting to me is that she is a broken person trying to become whole, and then the fact that she is a clone of wolverine. Read Daken if you want a clawed killer who likes killing

#10 Posted by BIGLEBOWSKI (154 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rod_The_Blade_Star: who mentioned liking killing? Daken is in no way a version of wolverine he's a sadist psychopath who gets off on chaos & power trips I'm talking about a female version of wolverine

#11 Posted by dadaism (227 posts) - - Show Bio

@BIGLEBOWSKI said:

@Rod_The_Blade_Star: who mentioned liking killing? Daken is in no way a version of wolverine he's a sadist psychopath who gets off on chaos & power trips I'm talking about a female version of wolverine

Yes they are taking the whole tortured soul gig way to far it's getting repetitive when the character has real potential

#12 Posted by Rod_The_Blade_Star (59 posts) - - Show Bio

@dadaism:just to be clear you want her to be a kick ass killing machine who loves what she does and is very good at it. She should in no way be meaningfully affected by her past with the facility you want a female wolverine. If this is what you want we will simply have to agree to disagree, I like her direction and I hate that idea. Great thing is that we are free to differ.

#13 Posted by CATPANEXE (9368 posts) - - Show Bio

The Dude has a point a point really. I like the odd and different adventures Laura was put in in the series personally, but those sort of series appeal to me. But if one stacks up all the books Laura has been in, her mini's, 1-shots, her solo book, Marvel Team-Up, X-Force, New X-Men, ect, there's a very different theme between them as to how her character is presented, especially in the violent end. I see a lot of indifference over what book she's in between different readers and how " she should be ". It sort of stands that there isn't an actual should be with the character, just different preferences for different people who got to know her character well. This is a pretty common thing associated with the character Deadpool if you look at it. I often wonder about pulling X-23 back a little myself, and remember reluctantly suggesting it a few times even. Something to note when speaking of how a character " is " is to look at the initial design. X-23 first appeared in the cartoon X-Men Evolution, much like Harley Quinn did in Batman TAS, and Reptil in Marvel Superhero Squad. So if we're being technically that animated version would be how the character is " supposed to be written " and everything else is a twist on that. X-23 is notable because I can't count, and I know I'm not the only one, how many times I've spoken to a parent online, and over at Marvels own site even, and read some parent writing to Marvel, about how much their child, almost always a girl aging under ten years old loved X-23 so much, and they were wondering what comics I would recommend and and where she should start reading. Now I was reading Target X at this time in fact, and you know, those were very delicate and difficult conversations to have. So Lebowski, when you spoke of her core fanbase and what you believed it was, actually, it was little girls in the majority or those moving into their preteens following her into comics, something they were likewise doing with other comic related animated series as most readers do. So liking it or not, there's another fine line to understand in this, and if anything the solo series is actually still overly gracious in the kind of things Laura is allowed to so and the themes. The rest falls to character development I believe, and while her character " should " be one way,. exposure to new stimulus and ideas should take her places and make her grow. Wolverine himself is no exception to this, and when he's not it sort of slaps the face of any development with the character. Personally I want three dimensional characters how grow, adapt, learn and and change as people, and their world to change to, rather than repetition and stasis, imo.

#14 Posted by Rod_The_Blade_Star (59 posts) - - Show Bio

@CATPANEXE:I cannot tell who you are agreeing with

#15 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

on the one side, I agree - X23 is a bad ass character, her story arc in the times of Craig Kyle and Chris Yost is the best... but, on the other side - the second thing I LOVE about X23 is how big emphasis was put on the psychological-emotional aspect of her story. Her story arc with Liu on board has only the psychological aspect, Kyle & Yost put in their stories a lot of killer action moments, but there was also place for some powerful, heart-breaking moments (Innocence Lost and Target X is IMO the best example of a story suitable for X23 - that whole tragedy of a child killer. Any other weren't as good as these two). X23 is a teenager, but also a killer - getting rid of any of these elements really affects the identity, it's like making a season of DEXTER, where he does not want to kill, thinking it's a bad thing - It would totally ruin his mandatory feature. I would say that Liu's story arc goes right in that direction. There's no problem with going in a more "humane" direction of her life, it is normal, but still goin this way, towards the end she will lose something that defines her as an character. The same is with the other side - If she will become a bloody killer, her story will lose that sensitivity and tragedy that surrounds her. She is a ambivalent character - innocent child and a killing machine.

#16 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

There is a story that was always on my mind - Imagine Kimura kidnaping Megan and then telling X23 that in order to save her cousin, she must kill an innocent man, or even a family. In her first days, it wouldn't be a problem, but now? And in the end of the story she confronts her enemy in a coat and mask and tries to kill her, just to discover afterwards, that it was disguised megan. Then kimura tells her that she killed megan because she felt that killing is the only option, no mercy for her enemies, but she could secure megan in the first place and then come for kimura. Her Mortal enemy explained her that she is not just a killing MACHINE - a puppet who does what her masters want - but she is a killer and just wanted revenge. Then X23 attacks her and tries to kill her, but for the first time - not because it was her mission, but because she hated her and couldn't keep her anger just for herself. she does what Kimura just said - it creates a dilemma - X23 keeps telling herself that she was made to kill and that she was a puppet. by telling that she denies her human nature, her emotions and her ability to make choices. But at what point it's a true FACT and at what point it's a JUSTIFIACTION? What if she would justifiy like that some killings, which weren't really commited by a machine, but by an angry woman who wanted revenge?

#17 Posted by CATPANEXE (9368 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rod_The_Blade_Star: I wasn't aware this was a debate, I was under the impression it was a discussion topic where we are sharing our opinions and points of view about the writing on the X-23 series?

#18 Posted by rokusan23 (146 posts) - - Show Bio

Laura is patterned with Pinocchio... She wants to be a real girl :) Be at least an inkling of what her mother wanted her to be...

(╯°□°)╯*silence*

#19 Posted by daak1212 (7901 posts) - - Show Bio

@CATPANEXE said:

@k2 said:

@The Dark Huntress said:

@Vance Astro
I actually loved X-23's book...
QFUT.

Ditto.

Signed on the dotted line.

Copy machine

#20 Posted by dadaism (227 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rod_The_Blade_Star said:

@dadaism:just to be clear you want her to be a kick ass killing machine who loves what she does and is very good at it. She should in no way be meaningfully affected by her past with the facility you want a female wolverine. If this is what you want we will simply have to agree to disagree, I like her direction and I hate that idea. Great thing is that we are free to differ.

I agree we live in a society thank the gods that lets us differ in opinions as varied as a rainbow with multiple personality disorder. On that you have my respect =)

#21 Posted by Money_is_God (13 posts) - - Show Bio

I just look~~~

#22 Posted by Stammer6 (22 posts) - - Show Bio

I've been really happy with most of the writing so far in the volumes I've read including X-23. Though I won't deny that there are a few things that make me raise an eyebrow. Maybe someone could shed some light on these for me?

WARNING: SPOILERS BELOW

X-23 Target X: They introduced a character by the name of Kimura. They try to RetCon her into the Innocence Lost series by explaining that she was around to keep X-23 in check, to offer a backup in case things got out of hand. She appeared to be completely loyal to Rice and his efforts. I have two problems with this. First, if we've already got someone allegedly superior to X-23, someone with little chance of rebellion, someone older and more experienced, wouldn't she have been better-suited for use as an assassin? Hell, wouldn't she have been better-suited as the cloned subject? Zander Rice could still have made his Weapon X clone, but done other things with her. And the thing that bugs me even more, where the hell was Kimura when X-23 and Dr. Kinney escaped? In Innocence Lost it's clear that Dr. Rice was expecting Dr. Kinney to rebel and take X-23 with her. You know someone who is specifically-designed to counter an otherwise perfect weapon. Don't you think having her on standby would have been a good idea? Seriously, where the heck was she?

NYX Wannabe: Man, I freaking hated this series. Laura acted nothing like she does in any of the other series. I think the only thing I have to actually ask about this is why they would bother RetConning Laura's character in Uncanny X-Men when they wouldn't in NYX? She's as out-of-character in that as she was in Uncanny. And on top of that, I seriously fail to understand at what point the series takes place, since it seems Target X takes place immediately between Innocence Lost and the later series.

Childhood's End: I just got to this point in the chronological order of comics, and have only read the first 2 volumes in the series. So far it's been a great read except for one thing: the way Logan introduces Laura to the other X-Men. I seriously find it hard to believe he would introduce her by specifically referring to her as his clone and then proceeding to say that she could easily kill any one of the other kids, "so don't provoke her". Yeah, because that's going to help her fit in, right? She spends all this time trying to become more human, and then Logan just comes up and basically says "This is Laura. She's a weapon, not a person. Have fun," and then proceeds to wonder why the kids aren't giving her a chance.

#23 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stammer6 said:

I've been really happy with most of the writing so far in the volumes I've read including X-23. Though I won't deny that there are a few things that make me raise an eyebrow. Maybe someone could shed some light on these for me?

WARNING: SPOILERS BELOW

X-23 Target X: They introduced a character by the name of Kimura. They try to RetCon her into the Innocence Lost series by explaining that she was around to keep X-23 in check, to offer a backup in case things got out of hand. She appeared to be completely loyal to Rice and his efforts. I have two problems with this. First, if we've already got someone allegedly superior to X-23, someone with little chance of rebellion, someone older and more experienced, wouldn't she have been better-suited for use as an assassin? Hell, wouldn't she have been better-suited as the cloned subject? Zander Rice could still have made his Weapon X clone, but done other things with her. And the thing that bugs me even more, where the hell was Kimura when X-23 and Dr. Kinney escaped? In Innocence Lost it's clear that Dr. Rice was expecting Dr. Kinney to rebel and take X-23 with her. You know someone who is specifically-designed to counter an otherwise perfect weapon. Don't you think having her on standby would have been a good idea? Seriously, where the heck was she?

NYX Wannabe: Man, I freaking hated this series. Laura acted nothing like she does in any of the other series. I think the only thing I have to actually ask about this is why they would bother RetConning Laura's character in Uncanny X-Men when they wouldn't in NYX? She's as out-of-character in that as she was in Uncanny. And on top of that, I seriously fail to understand at what point the series takes place, since it seems Target X takes place immediately between Innocence Lost and the later series.

Childhood's End: I just got to this point in the chronological order of comics, and have only read the first 2 volumes in the series. So far it's been a great read except for one thing: the way Logan introduces Laura to the other X-Men. I seriously find it hard to believe he would introduce her by specifically referring to her as his clone and then proceeding to say that she could easily kill any one of the other kids, "so don't provoke her". Yeah, because that's going to help her fit in, right? She spends all this time trying to become more human, and then Logan just comes up and basically says "This is Laura. She's a weapon, not a person. Have fun," and then proceeds to wonder why the kids aren't giving her a chance.

Subject nr 1 - Kimura is more like a heavy tank, so she is more capable of doing direct, aggresive attacks on her target. X23 is more efficient, silent and (as we see in Target X) underrated because of her age. No one sees her as an killer, that is why she killed that candidate for president in Innocence Lost and some other targets judging by the page with the flashbacks from her previous missions.

Second - the reason why Kimura didn't appear in the innocence lost might be quite simple - the character was never created at the time. Writers would have to think about twenty scenarios if the would like to make a story without any story complications, like those which you are arguing. Besides, she didn't appear during the destruction of the facility, but seconds after (target X). She might have been around.

subject nr 2 - the reason why X23 was out of character in NYX it's because she was just introduced to the comics, so she didn't have her "character" at the time. We see her as a contract killer, but her origin in comics comes directly from being a prostitute. In terms of chronology I see NYX as the third episode of her story, continuation of Target X. by losing her "master" she lost her way of life - doing orders. She does not know how to proceed through life on her own terms, perhaps that is why she found her new master - her pimp. On top of that, the chronology matches her appearance in Uncanny Xmen, where she worked as a waitress, when xmen found her. Maybe she tried to live on her own terms and got herself a job.

Subject nr 3 - More odd things happened in the Marvel universe. We have a telekinetic, rock gorilla and so on, and you refer Laura for being the only one who is capable of killing? The second - Wolverine didn't want to suprise everybody when the would finally discover that is quite a killer. On top of that I thing he wanted to make her socializing a bit more difficult, but in the end giving effects, that is why he reffered her as an killer right in the beggining.

#24 Posted by Stammer6 (22 posts) - - Show Bio

@ambival1 said:

Second - the reason why Kimura didn't appear in the innocence lost might be quite simple - the character was never created at the time. Writers would have to think about twenty scenarios if the would like to make a story without any story complications, like those which you are arguing. Besides, she didn't appear during the destruction of the facility, but seconds after (target X). She might have been around.

Subject nr 3 - More odd things happened in the Marvel universe. We have a telekinetic, rock gorilla and so on, and you refer Laura for being the only one who is capable of killing? The second - Wolverine didn't want to suprise everybody when the would finally discover that is quite a killer. On top of that I thing he wanted to make her socializing a bit more difficult, but in the end giving effects, that is why he reffered her as an killer right in the beggining.

Yeah, I know Kimura was probably simply not thought up by the point of Innocence Lost, but if you're going to RetCon a character into your story, you should try to avoid plot holes. It would have made a lot more sense if they explained Kimura as a mercenary or something hired by the Facility to bring her back after she'd already left. Plus, the fact that Kimura seems to be 100% loyal to the Facility, and employed only by the Facility, it doesn't make sense that she wouldn't have been present during the escape. Like I said, Dr. Rice was entirely expecting it to happen, so wouldn't it have made sense to ensure Kimura was on the scene right away? It's not like she has anything else to do anyway.

There's nothing wrong with Logan explaining that side of her. Yes, she's his clone and she could kill any one of them in the blink of an eye. But if you're introducing her to what's supposed to be her new family, you'd expect to also try to get her to fit in. Explain that she's shy and just wants to be normal (something all the other kids can attest to). Assure them that even though she could kill any one of them, she wouldn't. This is her new family, and a team she's going to be fighting alongside for presumably a long time, plus you know she just wants to fit in. It just doesn't sound like Logan to almost go out of his way to make Laura's first impression the absolute worst one he could.

I dunno, it's just little things like this that irk me. Plot holes and out-of-character plot points that just seem overlooked for the sake of plot-convenience. Most of the writing is gold, but crap like that just bothers me.

#25 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stammer6: The TOTAL absence of Kimura in Innocence Lost proves clearly that she was never created at the time. I know it may sound quite odd, since she is her mortal enemy. I'm a writer and when I'm writing a long story I try to fill up all the wholes, but as the story expands, it's nearly impossible to foresee everything. Sometimes when I invent a good scene or a plot, but my story already have similiar, I just save them for a rainy day. My idea is that Kimura was made especially for Target X, because they were lacking the main antagonist of the series. Innocence Lost had Rice, Target X had Kimura. Introducing a big character like Kimura in story, which already has a big antagonists, harms her distinction, because she is the number 2.

As for the Logan, I think it was writers's plan. By pointing out that she is a killer, he created suspiciousness in Surge, Hellion and all the others, which brought them to such acts as disrespect, social exclusion etc. By doing that Kyle & Yost kept her alienation, tragedy and darkness which are one of her main features. If things would go differently, it would be hard to keep her gloomy behaviour, since she'd have friends, psychological support and, maybe quicker than we thought, a love interest (at the beggining hellion had no respect for her. Later that disrespect turned into a fear, and then he started to really like her and finally love(which I decline, since she was always more concerned about him, rather than he about her)

You must understand that when you are writing a story, you must sacrifice some elements of realism for the sake of a good story. There are tons of movies, books and comics with such out of realism situations. The most famous I think is the idea of main antagonist always telling his whole plan before killing the main character, rather that killing him right away. Usually, by sacrificing a realism and thus giving an extra time, story gives a character a chance to survive.

#26 Posted by Stammer6 (22 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll accept those points, but I would like to point out that I didn't mean that Kimura should have been in Innocence Lost. I 100% understand that she was added solely into Target X. But what I'm saying is that in the story of Target X, Kimura was RetConned into the flashbacks we see in Innocence Lost, and that retroactive continuity doesn't fit with that story. If in Target X, they're telling us that "Kimura was there all along", then they need to make the reader believe that. They need to look back at what was written in Innocence Lost and say "Does it make sense to add this character in now".

Retroactively adding a new character is all fine and dandy, but if that addition would have changed the outcome of the plot, then they need to explain why it didn't change the outcome of the plot. Otherwise it leaves analytical fanatics such as myself scratching our heads.

#27 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stammer6: Actually this one goes to the subject of realism I mentioned. Kimura in Target X is not just X23 is enemy. She is her moral enemy and to create a mortal enemy, you need a serious background story. I think they struggled that Kimura was created after the innocence lost, but they didn't want to lose such a potential of an enemy just because she was never mentioned in the innocence lost, although she should. In my opinion it is a bit streched plot idea, but in other way they would have only two options - push Kimura onto the scene or not. Kimura for X23 is like Sabretooth for wolverine, the only real enemy. They had the chance to make such a character, but they had to go round all the realism obstacles. It's a mistake and so your arguing is justified, but that mistake gave us someone X23 needed most, an all time enemy (although, she is not the one who made her life a nightmare. Her one true mortal enemy is rice - he made her a killer, tortured her and made her kill her mother. She got her revenge.)

#28 Posted by Stammer6 (22 posts) - - Show Bio

All that is true. It just sort of makes me wish that they held off on adding Kimura (or some other enemy) until later, and added her in a little bit better. Honestly, I think Target X would have worked even without Kimura. Laura doesn't need a physical enemy. The battle between "Weapon X-23" and "Laura Kinney" is actually a lot more interesting anyway. They could have just as easily have sent Facility (or even S.H.I.E.L.D.) agents and held her family at gunpoint.

I don't really mind Kimura so much as I think she was just added into the story too early. Say, without giving any real spoilers away (just a simple "yes" or "no" will do), does Kimura ever show up again? Like I said, I'm not all that far into these comics yet. I'm still waiting for Childhood's End volume 3 from Amazon.

#29 Posted by ambival1 (95 posts) - - Show Bio

She will appear again, she is present in Target x, new x men and X force - in all of them is the same arrogant and brutal like hell Kimura. That is why I wish that Kyle and Yost will come back just for a new limited series, which would include Kimura as a one time mortal enemy.

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