Am I the only who is sick of X-23?

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#1 Edited by BaBaBoom (274 posts) - - Show Bio

I considered myself an X-23 fan until the end of Misadventures of Babysitting where she turned down Hellion in a really unpleasant way. I've never expected Laura to have an intimate romantic relationship with Julian but damn that is a bad way to get your heart crushed. So that is when I lost interest in Marjorie Liu's run of X-23. Then, the Circle of Four came out which featured her as part of the team together with Red Hulk, the annoyingly uninteresting Ghost Rider, and my fave Venom. The story as it's self is great but when you're looking for character development you won't find it in here when it comes to X-23. I felt like it's the same character with no development for the past years since her debut in X-men Evolution (though I did kind of saw her smile and give a thumbs up which is on its own a development... I guess.) All in all, I guess I got tired of seeing her with no emotion with the same motif over and over again in every single issue she comes out of.

However, the Avengers Academy tie-in for the Avengers vs X-men did show some promise for character improvement (more so than the entire X-23 on-going) and I hope that my sickness of this character fades away because I truly love this character and I still buy all of the TPBs she's featured in.

*edit: Am I the only one who is sick of X-23?

#2 Posted by OldManJoe (90 posts) - - Show Bio

She's not in enough books to make me lose interest in her yet. Now Wolverine is someone I'm getting very sick of, given he's in over a dozen different books a month and because of the fact that he is still against the X-Men in AVX.

#3 Posted by Crom-Cruach (8819 posts) - - Show Bio

I never liked her.

#4 Posted by RoboShark (1208 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't read much stuff with X-23 or her solo. I enjoyed her in the Venom/Circle of Four arc.

#5 Posted by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

I never liked her, but I think to go on her forum and ask if people dislike the character is rather rude. Regardless she isn't really doing much so I see no reason for anyone to be sick of her.

#6 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

@BaBaBoom said:

I considered myself an X-23 fan until the end of Misadventures of Babysitting where she turned down Hellion in a really unpleasant way. I've never expected Laura to have an intimate romantic relationship with Julian but damn that is a bad way to get your heart crushed. So that is when I lost interest in Marjorie Liu's run of X-23. Then, the Circle of Four came out which featured her as part of the team together with Red Hulk, the annoyingly uninteresting Ghost Rider, and my fave Venom. The story as it's self is great but when you're looking for character development you won't find it in here when it comes to X-23. I felt like it's the same character with no development for the past years since her debut in X-men Evolution (though I did kind of saw her smile and give a thumbs up which is on its own a development... I guess.) All in all, I guess I got tired of seeing her with no emotion with the same motif over and over again in every single issue she comes out of.

However, the Avengers Academy tie-in for the Avengers vs X-men did show some promise for character improvement (more so than the entire X-23 on-going) and I hope that my sickness of this character fades away because I truly love this character and I still buy all of the TPBs she's featured in.

I can understand your sudden disinterest. The problem is that last Liu arc was just handled so poorly...the characters were forced to fit into roles, so to speak. Liu sort of invented the problem for the break between them, instead of using already established difficulties (there could have been other plausible reasons for a break up). She made Laura seem very out of character with the previously established history. And Laura's been a bit off ever since...she is indeed being put in a monotone role. The thing with Laura is her personality is bland (given her history there are no questions as to why), but that's always been balanced out with good storytelling, showing how she develops with each new situation. Take the development away...and you have boring.

I haven't read the whole AA arc yet. The development there was so-so. I didn't agree with how the other characters were saying the X-men never welcomed Laura. Clearly the entire Kyle & Yost run was ignored in which Laura became good friends with Cessily Kincaid and Sooraya Qadir. She was very much accepted by Cessily, who had also been kidnapped by the Facility and so had a little insight into how she had been raised. Not to mention Julian, who saved her life a couple of times and eventually expressed feelings for her (yeah in the horrible Liu arc, but Kyle & Yost certainly hinted at it a good bit). My point here is...Laura may not have been accepted by all the X-men, but she certainly had friends. So the AA arc kind of ignored that, from what I saw. And therefore her development is not really going along with previous history....ugh. I like my stories to make sense and at least acknowledge past events.

Hopefully it gets better in the future! :o)

#7 Posted by BaBaBoom (274 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blood1991 said:

I never liked her, but I think to go on her forum and ask if people dislike the character is rather rude. Regardless she isn't really doing much so I see no reason for anyone to be sick of her.

I didn't mean to be rude, I apologize if I am, the reason why started this topic is to see other people's opinion regarding this matter and where else should I put this other than this forum.

#8 Posted by Augment (98 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah I totally agree that she isn't featured enough to be sick of her. I mean, if anything I'm sick of Daken more.

#9 Edited by BaBaBoom (274 posts) - - Show Bio

@OldManJoe said:

She's not in enough books to make me lose interest in her yet. Now Wolverine is someone I'm getting very sick of, given he's in over a dozen different books a month and because of the fact that he is still against the X-Men in AVX.

I personally don't care about Wolverine and I try to avoid him as much as I can (but it seems that I can't). The only Wolverine related character I'm interested in is X-23 and sometimes Daken. I like Wolverine if he's with Cyclops' X-men, I kinda feel that he's more in character with Cyclops than with Captain America with the Avengers (with him running the X-force and all he just doesn't fit the team and if he can join the Avengers why can't the Punisher?) I read Wolverine and the X-men for the X-students and not for Wolverine. IMO they should have just titled it X-men Academy instead of Wolverine and the X-men I would probably added in my pull list earlier if they had.

The reason why I'm getting sick of X-23 is not because she's in lot of books but because her character developed in New X-men and then developed some more in X-force and then after that she remained stagnant. Same old Laura in every single book she appears in like she is trapped in limbo but still used (if that made sense). One of the reasons I enjoyed Big Time Spiderman is the fact that they featured a new Peter Parker with a new job, a new girlfriend, and some new gimmicks.

#10 Edited by BaBaBoom (274 posts) - - Show Bio

@k2 said:

I haven't read the whole AA arc yet. The development there was so-so. I didn't agree with how the other characters were saying the X-men never welcomed Laura. Clearly the entire Kyle & Yost run was ignored in which Laura became good friends with Cessily Kincaid and Sooraya Qadir. She was very much accepted by Cessily, who had also been kidnapped by the Facility and so had a little insight into how she had been raised. Not to mention Julian, who saved her life a couple of times and eventually expressed feelings for her (yeah in the horrible Liu arc, but Kyle & Yost certainly hinted at it a good bit). My point here is...Laura may not have been accepted by all the X-men, but she certainly had friends. So the AA arc kind of ignored that, from what I saw. And therefore her development is not really going along with previous history....ugh. I like my stories to make sense and at least acknowledge past events.

Hopefully it gets better in the future! :o)

That is the first thing I noticed with the X-23 on-going, all of the friendships established throughout Kyle and Yost's run are all tossed in a garbage dump in the beginning of the first issue which at first I felt like she just didn't understand that these kids just survived a war and they don't know how to handle it yet so she thought they all hated her. But, after that Laura seems to think that the New X-men are never her friends and the NYX kids (I hate those people they seem to be so dumb) are her only true friends and then not even them. Then she had this relationship with Gambit and Jubilee which (IMO) is both out of place and creepy (I mean really creepy but not so much with Jubilee). In the tie-in arc of AA, the writer, Christos N. Gage did his best to correct these relationship troubles but it still felt kinda weird and out of character, you'd have to read it yourself.

#11 Posted by John Valentine (16307 posts) - - Show Bio

@BaBaBoom said:

@k2 said:

I haven't read the whole AA arc yet. The development there was so-so. I didn't agree with how the other characters were saying the X-men never welcomed Laura. Clearly the entire Kyle & Yost run was ignored in which Laura became good friends with Cessily Kincaid and Sooraya Qadir. She was very much accepted by Cessily, who had also been kidnapped by the Facility and so had a little insight into how she had been raised. Not to mention Julian, who saved her life a couple of times and eventually expressed feelings for her (yeah in the horrible Liu arc, but Kyle & Yost certainly hinted at it a good bit). My point here is...Laura may not have been accepted by all the X-men, but she certainly had friends. So the AA arc kind of ignored that, from what I saw. And therefore her development is not really going along with previous history....ugh. I like my stories to make sense and at least acknowledge past events.

Hopefully it gets better in the future! :o)

That is the first thing I noticed with the X-23 on-going, all of the friendships established throughout Kyle and Yost's run are all tossed in a garbage dump in the beginning of the first issue which at first I felt like she just didn't understand that these kids just survived a war and they don't know how to handle it yet so she thought they all hated her. But, after that Laura seems to think that the New X-men are never her friends and the NYX kids (I hate those people they seem to be so dumb) are her only true friends and then not even them. Then she had this relationship with Gambit and Jubilee which (IMO) is both out of place and creepy (I mean really creepy but not so much with Jubilee). In the tie-in arc of AA, the writer, Christos N. Gage did his best to correct these relationship troubles but it still felt kinda weird and out of character, you'd have to read it yourself.

X-23 was just a bad series all around. It wasn't progressive for the character and just ruined four years worth of her development in New X-Men/X-Force. The Jubilee/Gambit thing was ridiculous too. The only reason they would have been involved was because they were fan favourite characters of Liu.

Liu is possibly one of my least favourite writers. So overrated. Also, Astonishing X-Men is utter crap

#12 Edited by KingofMadCows (345 posts) - - Show Bio

The writers have definitely dropped the ball on her development.

There is so much potential with the character. They really should have taken more of a Blade Runner approach to her. I see her as almost an amalgamation of all of the characters in Blade Runner. Much like the Replicants, X-23 was made for a specific purpose but has rebelled against her creators and is now not only searching for a new purpose in her life beyond what she was made for but also learning to deal with humanity in a whole new way.

They really should have played up the conflict between her programming and her own developing personality and desires. For example, she has been taught to emulate, evoke and manipulate emotions to achieve her missions. So she understands emotions much better than people give her credit for and she is able to use emotions to achieve a particular goal. However, the way in which she deals with emotions is impersonal as she is still struggling to develop and understand how she feels. She is able to predict what a specific emotion can achieve under a specific circumstance but she doesn't really know what emotions she personally experiences under those circumstances. I would say that's the reason why she joined X-Force since she gets put back into a position where she doesn't have to deal with her own feelings.

There is also a failure in how they've developed her perception of the world. For most of her life, she was exposed to the very worst of humanity. She was raised by unethical and sadistic scientists. She worked for criminals, murderers, sex traffickers, and dictators. She has experienced few fleeting moments of happiness that were quickly snatched away from her. She should have a very unique view of humanity. She shouldn't just be wondering whether or not she has soul, she should be wondering if humanity has a soul. She should be dealing with the same dilemma as the Replicants in Blade Runner. Should she view humanity as basically immoral and corrupt and allow herself to be dragged down to the same level as the people who created her or should she strive to surpass humanity, to prove that she is better than what she was made for, better than the people who made her?

#13 Posted by John Valentine (16307 posts) - - Show Bio

@KingofMadCows said:

The writers have definitely dropped the ball on her development.

There is so much potential with the character. They really should have taken more of a Blade Runner approach to her. I see her as almost an amalgamation of all of the characters in Blade Runner. Much like the Replicants, X-23 was made for a specific purpose but has rebelled against her creators and is now not only searching for a new purpose in her life beyond what she was made for but also learning to deal with humanity in a whole new way.

They really should have played up the conflict between her programming and her own developing personality and desires. For example, she has been taught to emulate, evoke and manipulate emotions to achieve her missions. So she understands emotions much better than people give her credit for and she is able to use emotions to achieve a particular goal. However, the way in which she deals with emotions is impersonal as she is still struggling to develop and understand how she feels. She is able to predict how a specific emotion can achieve under a specific circumstance but she doesn't really know what emotions she personally experiences under those circumstances. I would say that's the reason why she joined X-Force since she gets put back into a position where she doesn't have to deal with her own feelings.

There is also a failure in how they've developed her perception of the world. For most of her life, she was exposed to the very worst of humanity. She was raised by unethical and sadistic scientists. She worked for criminals, murderers, sex traffickers, and dictators. She has experienced few fleeting moments of happiness that were quickly snatched away from her. She should have a very unique view of humanity. She shouldn't just be wondering whether or not she has soul, she should be wondering if humanity has a soul. She should be dealing with the same dilemma as the Replicants in Blade Runner. Should she view humanity as basically immoral and corrupt and allow herself to be dragged down to the same level as the people who created her or should she strive to surpass humanity?

Excellent comparison!

#14 Posted by BaBaBoom (274 posts) - - Show Bio

@KingofMadCows: This is probably the best way to put my concerns into words.

#15 Edited by FourthDeity (2234 posts) - - Show Bio

@KingofMadCows said:

The writers have definitely dropped the ball on her development.

There is so much potential with the character. They really should have taken more of a Blade Runner approach to her. I see her as almost an amalgamation of all of the characters in Blade Runner. Much like the Replicants, X-23 was made for a specific purpose but has rebelled against her creators and is now not only searching for a new purpose in her life beyond what she was made for but also learning to deal with humanity in a whole new way.

They really should have played up the conflict between her programming and her own developing personality and desires. For example, she has been taught to emulate, evoke and manipulate emotions to achieve her missions. So she understands emotions much better than people give her credit for and she is able to use emotions to achieve a particular goal. However, the way in which she deals with emotions is impersonal as she is still struggling to develop and understand how she feels. She is able to predict what a specific emotion can achieve under a specific circumstance but she doesn't really know what emotions she personally experiences under those circumstances. I would say that's the reason why she joined X-Force since she gets put back into a position where she doesn't have to deal with her own feelings.

There is also a failure in how they've developed her perception of the world. For most of her life, she was exposed to the very worst of humanity. She was raised by unethical and sadistic scientists. She worked for criminals, murderers, sex traffickers, and dictators. She has experienced few fleeting moments of happiness that were quickly snatched away from her. She should have a very unique view of humanity. She shouldn't just be wondering whether or not she has soul, she should be wondering if humanity has a soul. She should be dealing with the same dilemma as the Replicants in Blade Runner. Should she view humanity as basically immoral and corrupt and allow herself to be dragged down to the same level as the people who created her or should she strive to surpass humanity, to prove that she is better than what she was made for, better than the people who made her?

#16 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

She is not on enough books or receiving that much attention as of now to be considered to be "sick of her."

#17 Posted by Mercy_ (92685 posts) - - Show Bio
@KingofMadCows

The writers have definitely dropped the ball on her development.

There is so much potential with the character. They really should have taken more of a Blade Runner approach to her. I see her as almost an amalgamation of all of the characters in Blade Runner. Much like the Replicants, X-23 was made for a specific purpose but has rebelled against her creators and is now not only searching for a new purpose in her life beyond what she was made for but also learning to deal with humanity in a whole new way.

They really should have played up the conflict between her programming and her own developing personality and desires. For example, she has been taught to emulate, evoke and manipulate emotions to achieve her missions. So she understands emotions much better than people give her credit for and she is able to use emotions to achieve a particular goal. However, the way in which she deals with emotions is impersonal as she is still struggling to develop and understand how she feels. She is able to predict what a specific emotion can achieve under a specific circumstance but she doesn't really know what emotions she personally experiences under those circumstances. I would say that's the reason why she joined X-Force since she gets put back into a position where she doesn't have to deal with her own feelings.

There is also a failure in how they've developed her perception of the world. For most of her life, she was exposed to the very worst of humanity. She was raised by unethical and sadistic scientists. She worked for criminals, murderers, sex traffickers, and dictators. She has experienced few fleeting moments of happiness that were quickly snatched away from her. She should have a very unique view of humanity. She shouldn't just be wondering whether or not she has soul, she should be wondering if humanity has a soul. She should be dealing with the same dilemma as the Replicants in Blade Runner. Should she view humanity as basically immoral and corrupt and allow herself to be dragged down to the same level as the people who created her or should she strive to surpass humanity, to prove that she is better than what she was made for, better than the people who made her?

This post is absolute perfection
Moderator
#18 Posted by Brazen_Intellect (1144 posts) - - Show Bio

Since her@KingofMadCows said:

The writers have definitely dropped the ball on her development.

There is so much potential with the character. They really should have taken more of a Blade Runner approach to her. I see her as almost an amalgamation of all of the characters in Blade Runner. Much like the Replicants, X-23 was made for a specific purpose but has rebelled against her creators and is now not only searching for a new purpose in her life beyond what she was made for but also learning to deal with humanity in a whole new way.

They really should have played up the conflict between her programming and her own developing personality and desires. For example, she has been taught to emulate, evoke and manipulate emotions to achieve her missions. So she understands emotions much better than people give her credit for and she is able to use emotions to achieve a particular goal. However, the way in which she deals with emotions is impersonal as she is still struggling to develop and understand how she feels. She is able to predict what a specific emotion can achieve under a specific circumstance but she doesn't really know what emotions she personally experiences under those circumstances. I would say that's the reason why she joined X-Force since she gets put back into a position where she doesn't have to deal with her own feelings.

There is also a failure in how they've developed her perception of the world. For most of her life, she was exposed to the very worst of humanity. She was raised by unethical and sadistic scientists. She worked for criminals, murderers, sex traffickers, and dictators. She has experienced few fleeting moments of happiness that were quickly snatched away from her. She should have a very unique view of humanity. She shouldn't just be wondering whether or not she has soul, she should be wondering if humanity has a soul. She should be dealing with the same dilemma as the Replicants in Blade Runner. Should she view humanity as basically immoral and corrupt and allow herself to be dragged down to the same level as the people who created her or should she strive to surpass humanity, to prove that she is better than what she was made for, better than the people who made her?

Yep, not much to add after this

#19 Posted by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

@BaBaBoom said:

@Blood1991 said:

I never liked her, but I think to go on her forum and ask if people dislike the character is rather rude. Regardless she isn't really doing much so I see no reason for anyone to be sick of her.

I didn't mean to be rude, I apologize if I am, the reason why started this topic is to see other people's opinion regarding this matter and where else should I put this other than this forum.

Some people go on character forums just to troll and it rubs me the wrong way, but I should apologize for grouping you in with them. I am sorry.

#20 Posted by CellphoneGirl (18853 posts) - - Show Bio

@KingofMadCows said:

The writers have definitely dropped the ball on her development.

There is so much potential with the character. They really should have taken more of a Blade Runner approach to her. I see her as almost an amalgamation of all of the characters in Blade Runner. Much like the Replicants, X-23 was made for a specific purpose but has rebelled against her creators and is now not only searching for a new purpose in her life beyond what she was made for but also learning to deal with humanity in a whole new way.

They really should have played up the conflict between her programming and her own developing personality and desires. For example, she has been taught to emulate, evoke and manipulate emotions to achieve her missions. So she understands emotions much better than people give her credit for and she is able to use emotions to achieve a particular goal. However, the way in which she deals with emotions is impersonal as she is still struggling to develop and understand how she feels. She is able to predict what a specific emotion can achieve under a specific circumstance but she doesn't really know what emotions she personally experiences under those circumstances. I would say that's the reason why she joined X-Force since she gets put back into a position where she doesn't have to deal with her own feelings.

There is also a failure in how they've developed her perception of the world. For most of her life, she was exposed to the very worst of humanity. She was raised by unethical and sadistic scientists. She worked for criminals, murderers, sex traffickers, and dictators. She has experienced few fleeting moments of happiness that were quickly snatched away from her. She should have a very unique view of humanity. She shouldn't just be wondering whether or not she has soul, she should be wondering if humanity has a soul. She should be dealing with the same dilemma as the Replicants in Blade Runner. Should she view humanity as basically immoral and corrupt and allow herself to be dragged down to the same level as the people who created her or should she strive to surpass humanity, to prove that she is better than what she was made for, better than the people who made her?

YES.

#21 Posted by PowerHerc (83342 posts) - - Show Bio

@Crom-Cruach said:

I never liked her.

This.

Online
#22 Posted by x_29 (2274 posts) - - Show Bio

@BaBaBoom said:

I considered myself an X-23 fan until the end of Misadventures of Babysitting where she turned down Hellion in a really unpleasant way. I've never expected Laura to have an intimate romantic relationship with Julian but damn that is a bad way to get your heart crushed. So that is when I lost interest in Marjorie Liu's run of X-23. Then, the Circle of Four came out which featured her as part of the team together with Red Hulk, the annoyingly uninteresting Ghost Rider, and my fave Venom. The story as it's self is great but when you're looking for character development you won't find it in here when it comes to X-23. I felt like it's the same character with no development for the past years since her debut in X-men Evolution (though I did kind of saw her smile and give a thumbs up which is on its own a development... I guess.) All in all, I guess I got tired of seeing her with no emotion with the same motif over and over again in every single issue she comes out of.

However, the Avengers Academy tie-in for the Avengers vs X-men did show some promise for character improvement (more so than the entire X-23 on-going) and I hope that my sickness of this character fades away because I truly love this character and I still buy all of the TPBs she's featured in.

*edit: Am I the only one who is sick of X-23?

It does not sound that you are sick of the character, but more exactly, you are just disappointed in the character development department so far by the writers. And thats fair. While I may not feel the same way, I can see and respect from where you are coming from.

#23 Posted by DraketheSlaughter (86 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't care for her at all, After what happened with her & hellion

#24 Edited by KingofMadCows (345 posts) - - Show Bio

The relationship between X-23 and Hellion was never even developed enough for me to care.

She had a crush on him, they shared a few longing glances, what else happened between them?

That's the whole problem with how they've written X-23. They've always shown the promise of some kind of development or relationship with her but they never follow through.

After Wolverine told X-23 that Rahne is the kind of person that they must die for, why didn't they have X-23 try to get to know Rahne better so she can understand why they should die for her?

When Elixir saved X-23 from the Legacy virus, he told her that she mattered and that he understood the reason why he got involved is because he could save her... then nothing happened after that even though the implication of that speech was that Elixir wasn't just trying to save X-23's life but also help save her as a person, from the pain of her past, and from the self destructive path that she may be heading towards.

There were several instances where you see Domino play off of X-23 quite well and there were hints of a bond between them where Domino could end up playing a big sister or sarcastic friend type role but again, nothing happened.

In the few moments X-23 shared with Hope, there were signs of a bond developing between them. X-23 not only understands the hardship Hope has been through as a child, but there is the deeper connection of how they're both treated as tools by others to be used. Yet, there hasn't even been a single moment between Hope and X-23 after that.

#25 Edited by MarvelGrey (243 posts) - - Show Bio

Marjorie Liu ruins everything she touches, X-23 really has a handful of dialogue with Liu. Most of her lines revolve of her not having a soul, not being wanted, and only knowing fighting and death. I just dropped the Astonishing X-Men only because I wanted the wedding issue, her portrayal of characters are and will forever will be awful.That is all.

If you want to read something better with X-23 read Target X much better series.

#26 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

@KingofMadCows said:

The writers have definitely dropped the ball on her development.

There is so much potential with the character. They really should have taken more of a Blade Runner approach to her. I see her as almost an amalgamation of all of the characters in Blade Runner. Much like the Replicants, X-23 was made for a specific purpose but has rebelled against her creators and is now not only searching for a new purpose in her life beyond what she was made for but also learning to deal with humanity in a whole new way.

They really should have played up the conflict between her programming and her own developing personality and desires. For example, she has been taught to emulate, evoke and manipulate emotions to achieve her missions. So she understands emotions much better than people give her credit for and she is able to use emotions to achieve a particular goal. However, the way in which she deals with emotions is impersonal as she is still struggling to develop and understand how she feels. She is able to predict what a specific emotion can achieve under a specific circumstance but she doesn't really know what emotions she personally experiences under those circumstances. I would say that's the reason why she joined X-Force since she gets put back into a position where she doesn't have to deal with her own feelings.

There is also a failure in how they've developed her perception of the world. For most of her life, she was exposed to the very worst of humanity. She was raised by unethical and sadistic scientists. She worked for criminals, murderers, sex traffickers, and dictators. She has experienced few fleeting moments of happiness that were quickly snatched away from her. She should have a very unique view of humanity. She shouldn't just be wondering whether or not she has soul, she should be wondering if humanity has a soul. She should be dealing with the same dilemma as the Replicants in Blade Runner. Should she view humanity as basically immoral and corrupt and allow herself to be dragged down to the same level as the people who created her or should she strive to surpass humanity, to prove that she is better than what she was made for, better than the people who made her?

I didn't think X-force was just a ploy for her to avoid emotions. I looked at it as a combination: Laura had people she now cared about (her friends), who had risked their lives for her, and now she wanted to protect them. She knew someone had to do this work, and it made logical sense for it to be her. She was used to taking orders, and did as Cyclops told her, knowing it would be in the interest of her friends and mutants in general.

K&Y didn't really have the room to elaborate on what Laura was feeling about the team at the moment. At times I felt like they were either forced to put her there, or put her on the team intending more development but then the editors said "You've been doing way too much Laura in your other stories so we want this book to be more team-based." I was often left with a feeling that us readers were seeing only half the stories--we saw what happened but not how the situations impacted Laura, if that makes sense.

#27 Edited by KingofMadCows (345 posts) - - Show Bio

@k2: One of the contradictions of X-23 is how much of the programming she received from the Facility has made her more effective at all the heroics. She makes sacrifices without hesitation or doubt. She does whatever is necessary to complete the mission with no regards for her own personal safety. But humans are supposed to have a sense of self preservation. Humans are supposed to have selfish desires. Even the greatest heroes must face the struggle between needs of the self and the desire to help others. Yet, X-23 does it automatically.

If X-23 allows herself to continue developing her own emotions and feelings then it will bring about those natural selfish human desires. Without any experience in dealing with those emotions and desires, she runs the risk of doing something dangerous should she ever succumb to those desires and allow them to override her programming. Look at what happened when she saw Surge kissing Hellion. So while she certainly wanted to protect her friends from external threats by joining the X-Force, she was likely also trying to protect them from herself and the dangers her developing emotions can bring.

#28 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

@KingofMadCows said:

@k2: One of the contradictions of X-23 is how much of the programming she received from the Facility has made her more effective at all the heroics. She makes sacrifices without hesitation or doubt. She does whatever is necessary to complete the mission with no regards for her own personal safety. But humans are supposed to have a sense of self preservation. Humans are supposed to have selfish desires. Even the greatest heroes must face the struggle between needs of the self and the desire to help others. Yet, X-23 does it automatically.

If X-23 allows herself to continue developing her own emotions and feelings then it will bring about those natural selfish human desires. Without any experience in dealing with those emotions and desires, she runs the risk of doing something dangerous should she ever succumb to those desires and allow them to override her programming. Look at what happened when she saw Surge kissing Hellion. So while she certainly wanted to protect her friends from external threats by joining the X-Force, she was likely also trying to protect them from herself and the dangers her developing emotions can bring.

It could be that too, but I doubt it. In the example you gave were Surge kissed Hellion, yes--Laura was destructive--but she didn't hurt anyone. And in the Marvel universe, that would seem to be enough...given how many destructive emotional tantrums almost every one of the characters has had...including Hellion himself, lol.

#29 Edited by KingofMadCows (345 posts) - - Show Bio

@k2: But Hellion has experience with emotions. He knows how to deal with them without hurting anyone, at least physically. X-23 has very little experience with her emotions and does not know how to effectively deal with them, especially with wants and desires that she cannot attain.

#30 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

@KingofMadCows said:

@k2: But Hellion has experience with emotions. He knows how to deal with them without hurting anyone, at least physically. X-23 has very little experience with her emotions and does not know how to effectively deal with them, especially with wants and desires that she cannot attain.

That was my point. Experience or no, Laura has never hurt someone while dealing with her emotions--she runs away and finds a safer spot to have a tantrum. There's only one issue in which she hurts someone when dealing with emotions, and that was the Liu issue in which she randomly cut Gambit. I couldn't even figure out what Liu was trying to do with that scene, so I don't really count it as regular Laura behavior.

Under Kyle & Yost, yes Laura may have been confused about emotions, but she didn't hurt her friends, or truly innocent people, ex. Henry Sutton or Megan Kinney. She goes overboard on villains, which is what makes her dangerous. But she always does the right thing--Laura has a simple goodness in her that runs so deep that even the facility couldn't destroy it.

I don't think it's correct to say Laura has no experience at all with emotions, either--even when she joined the X-men. She clearly has had them. She loved many people first: her Sensei, her mother, her aunt and cousin. She learned how to lose them too, how to let loved ones go to keep them safe. She didn't know how to deal with superficial day-to-day emotions, is what I would say...and she dealt with romance as well as any other teenager, if you aren't aware that many teens have trouble with healthy emotional outlets.

And as for Hellion dealing with emotions without hurting anyone physically...wasn't that his problem for a little bit there? Liu and Carey were eagerly trying to convince us fans that he'd turned into an abusive destructive character on the path to evil. He was smashing all manner of things and even getting his metal fingers into murder. Rogue flew into huge super-strength temper tantrums when she had the whole Carol Danvers conflicts. Wolverine had his berserker rages. Wind Dancer destroyed a grocery store with a tornado because she was angry at her father. Face it, this is comics...none of these characters deal with emotions properly, because they all have horrible flaws to give us entertaining reading. In reality, Laura is not much worse than any of these people, and as she has yet to hurt anyone in her little emotion tantrums, I'd say she deals with them just as effectively. Maybe even better because she takes a simpler view on things.

#31 Posted by KingofMadCows (345 posts) - - Show Bio

@k2: X-23 understands emotions as a means to an end. After all, she was trained in infiltration and espionage so she knows how to emulate, evoke and manipulate emotions to achieve her missions. We have seen her pretend to be a normal girl several times in order to get close to her target and lower their guard. But to her, emotions have always been impersonal.

She may be able to predict what someone feels under a specific circumstance and she knows what emotions she could feign in order to take advantage of the situation but what she has a problem with is what emotions she personally experiences under those circumstances. So she may know how pretending to be sad or happy in a certain situation can affect other people and what it can make them do but she doesn't actually know how she feels in that situation. In fact, her personal feelings had to be suppressed in order for that training to work.

While she has been able to control herself enough not to hurt her friends, she hasn't really experienced any truly strong emotions. She only had a little crush on Hellion and she had a pretty big tantrum when she saw Surge kiss him. Well, what happens if she develops much deeper feelings? Will she be able to control herself if she actually falls in love and has her heart broken? What happens when her own emotions interact with her programming? What if she can't overcome her programming or is unable to distinguish between what she feels and what her programming tells her to feel or pretend to feel? What happens when she succumbs to her programming as a means to fulfill her emotional needs? She knows how to manipulate people and she can use those skills just as easily as she uses her combat training. And since she isn't actually physically hurting or killing anyone, the temptation to use it for selfish gains can be much stronger.

#32 Posted by k2 (473 posts) - - Show Bio

@KingofMadCows said:

@k2: X-23 understands emotions as a means to an end. After all, she was trained in infiltration and espionage so she knows how to emulate, evoke and manipulate emotions to achieve her missions. We have seen her pretend to be a normal girl several times in order to get close to her target and lower their guard. But to her, emotions have always been impersonal.

She may be able to predict what someone feels under a specific circumstance and she knows what emotions she could feign in order to take advantage of the situation but what she has a problem with is what emotions she personally experiences under those circumstances. So she may know how pretending to be sad or happy in a certain situation can affect other people and what it can make them do but she doesn't actually know how she feels in that situation. In fact, her personal feelings had to be suppressed in order for that training to work.

While she has been able to control herself enough not to hurt her friends, she hasn't really experienced any truly strong emotions. She only had a little crush on Hellion and she had a pretty big tantrum when she saw Surge kiss him. Well, what happens if she develops much deeper feelings? Will she be able to control herself if she actually falls in love and has her heart broken? What happens when her own emotions interact with her programming? What if she can't overcome her programming or is unable to distinguish between what she feels and what her programming tells her to feel or pretend to feel? What happens when she succumbs to her programming as a means to fulfill her emotional needs? She knows how to manipulate people and she can use those skills just as easily as she uses her combat training. And since she isn't actually physically hurting or killing anyone, the temptation to use it for selfish gains can be much stronger.

I'm pretty sure having people she loved die were strong emotions. And Logan described Laura's little crush as her entire body 'lighting up' when she heard that Julian was in danger.

She is simply programmed not to feel, but this has never been the case. Already she is breaking through this by allowing herself to think of the lives of the people she is fighting and therefore restraining from killing in some situations. In a conflict between her 'do not feel' training and her 'feelings', she compromises, like when Julian was in danger: she does her mission, but tries to save her loved ones at the same time or after...just like any other hero. In the future when confronted with having to kill her friend Kiden, she refused--even though it presented difficulties in her mission. Domino shot her instead.

I have yet to see where Laura uses the 'emotional training' to manipulate someone, especially for selfish gains. You're not getting Laura as a character if you think she is manipulative and/or selfish. She is not. That is why many people love her. She's been through so much, and yet she is still pure at her very heart. She smiles at children and would die for her friends. She will take any abuse so as to save others, because she puts them above herself. She would not manipulate unless it was the only way to achieve a greater good...and in that case, many other characters might do so as well. She is probably the only person in the X-men without selfish motives.

And if you are going to say 'well her training puts her at risk of being manipulative', then are we to assume anyone with acting skills is also manipulative?

#33 Edited by KingofMadCows (345 posts) - - Show Bio

@k2: You're missing the point. I never said that X-23 was selfish. The fact that she isn't even a little selfish is the problem because humans have selfish impulses and desires. Humans succumb to pettiness, greed, jealousy, anger, fear, and hatred. Humans do not sacrifice themselves without fear, hesitation, or doubt. The struggle between our conflicting emotions and the different aspects of our nature is a major part of what makes us human.

When the Facility tried to take away X-23's humanity, they didn't just try to take out the good traits like empathy and compassion, they took out plenty of traits that are often considered bad, like doubt, fear, greed, hate, jealousy, lust, pride, etc. In fact, they were far more successful in removing the darker impulses and "bad" emotions than the good ones since X-23 has expressed empathy far more than any selfish desires.

If X-23 wants to develop that sense of self were and become more human, she would need to break down all the mental blocks the Facility put in place, including the ones around more negative emotions like fear, greed, jealousy, hate, etc., and she would need to face those darker aspects of humanity. Her training makes her very dangerous should she ever succumb to those desires or cannot effectively deal with them. She understands that and she sees the potential harm that could come if she were to ever let that genie out of the bottle.

#34 Posted by Kairan1979 (16728 posts) - - Show Bio

Humans succumb to pettiness, greed, jealousy, anger, fear, and hatred. Humans do not sacrifice themselves without fear, hesitation, or doubt. The struggle between our conflicting emotions and the different aspects of our nature is a major part of what makes us human.

Well, Laura Kinney already demonstrated half of your list. X-23 is prone to anger and jealousy (the scene when Surge kissed Hellion, or when he said Sofia's name while he was dreaming). X-23 fears she is "not real" and those who tell she has no soul are right. X-23 is afraid the Facility can hurt those close to her. She is afraid that she losts control of herself if somebody uses trigger scent.

#35 Posted by KingofMadCows (345 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kairan1979: One or two instances where she expresses anger and what might be jealousy does not make her "prone" to those emotions.

And how well did she deal with those emotions? Was she able to effectively work them out? Did she try to cope with them? Did she try to come to an understanding with the people who caused those feelings? Or did she push them down and ignore them like the Facility taught her to do?

And what happened after the incident with Surge and Hellion? X-23 joined the X-Force where she could just follow orders and didn't have to worry about her own conflicting emotions. And what happened after "Not Forgotten?" She didn't even mention the incident to anyone. She told no one about her fears of being taken back or her sense of hopelessness.

That's the problem. She has always operated without having to worry about emotions. Now that she's starting to develop a sense of self and all the conflicting feelings that brings, she doesn't know how to really deal with them. She's just suppressing and ignoring all the bad emotions.

#36 Posted by ka385385 (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

I will say it over and over again ,Hellion is a douchbag and let's just say X-23 grow up now and she finally see it so she leave that jerk for good.

#37 Posted by John Valentine (16307 posts) - - Show Bio

@ka385385 said:

I will say it over and over again ,Hellion is a douchbag and let's just say X-23 grow up now and she finally see it so she leave that jerk for good.

Oh, yeah, Hellion's definitely the character who stunted her growth. In the 20-something issues she was featured with him, she showed the most development so far.

#38 Posted by ka385385 (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine:

all i see is X-23 is a character who far more popular than hellion ,Liu is a very good writer that's why she cut off X-23 and hellion ,X-23 is smart enough to leave hellion and also because most of x-23 fans probably don't want to see Douchbag/nice pretty girl with claw this kind of thing happen.

#39 Posted by John Valentine (16307 posts) - - Show Bio

@ka385385 said:

@John Valentine:

all i see is X-23 is a character who far more popular than hellion ,Liu is a very good writer that's why she cut off X-23 and hellion ,X-23 is smart enough to leave hellion and also because most of x-23 fans probably don't want to see Douchbag/nice pretty girl with claw this kind of thing happen.

Just no.

Why do you think Hellion's "a douchebag"?

#40 Posted by ka385385 (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine:

His arrogant and pride ,i don't see there is a point to go over there again ,people who know hellion probably all know he always behave like "i'm better than the others" ,and let's not forget he claim himself as "most powerful mutant on earth"

#41 Posted by John Valentine (16307 posts) - - Show Bio

@ka385385 said:

@John Valentine:

His arrogant and pride ,i don't see there is a point to go over there again ,people who know hellion probably all know he always behave like "i'm better than the others" ,and let's not forget he claim himself as "most powerful mutant on earth"

Seems like a stupid reason to dislike a character. That behaviour that you're so keen to point out was constantly countered by strong elements of loyalty, leadership and bravery.

Get it right. It was him saying that he was "one of the most powerful mutants on Earth", which was, and still is, an entirely valid point.

Do you hate Wolverine for saying "I'm the best at what I do?". Do you hate Angel? Northstar? Iron Man?

#42 Edited by ka385385 (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine:

He is not that powerful or he won't lose his hands.

Wolverine might have a little pride in him ,but he was train with samurai way which teach him be humble a lot ,Angel always been polite ,Iron man always can see what good in people and he don't think he is always been better than the others ,he is somekind of Mangeto-wannbe ,or worse.

Hellion is just a snob arrogant kid ,immature behaviort thought himself is somekind of badass but he still can't see the fact that there are lots of people better than him ,like he don't respect Cyclops ,hell ,even Wolverine not like him very much ,he think even surge is better than that jerk.

i don't want to go over this over and over again and i don't need to heard stupid ridiculous excuse to deffend his arrogant.

#43 Edited by John Valentine (16307 posts) - - Show Bio

@ka385385 said:

@John Valentine:

He is not that powerful or he won't lose his hands.

Wolverine might have a little pride in him ,but he was train with samurai way which teach him be humble a lot ,Angel always been polite ,Iron man always can see what good in people and he don't think he is always been better than the others ,he is somekind of Mangeto-wannbe ,or worse.

Hellion is just a snob arrogant kid ,immature behaviort thought himself is somekind of badass but he still can't see the fact that there are lots of people better than him ,like he don't respect Cyclops ,hell ,even Wolverine not like him very much ,he think even surge is better than that jerk.

i don't want to go over this over and over again and i don't need to heard stupid ridiculous excuse to deffend his arrogant.

Ridiculous. You clearly haven't read half of this stuff with Hellion in it.

You're a moron.

#44 Posted by ka385385 (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine:

How mature ,kid ,grow up.

#45 Posted by John Valentine (16307 posts) - - Show Bio

@ka385385 said:

@John Valentine:

How mature ,kid ,grow up.

Learn to type.

#46 Posted by FourthDeity (2234 posts) - - Show Bio

@John Valentine: Tell me. Why do you like Hellion so much?I'm not accusing you of being a fanboy I'm curious.

#47 Posted by BaBaBoom (274 posts) - - Show Bio

@ka385385 said:

@John Valentine:

His arrogant and pride ,i don't see there is a point to go over there again ,people who know hellion probably all know he always behave like "i'm better than the others" ,and let's not forget he claim himself as "most powerful mutant on earth"

I just want to ask how many books about Hellion have you read? It seems that you only read New Mutants vol. 2, X-Men legacy issues that featured Hellion, the Misadventures in Babysitting X-23 arc, and Wolverine and the X-Men. I advice that you read the New X-Men books and then let's see if you'll still feel like he's the one sided character you think he is. FYI Flash Thompson has always been a bully before but look at him now, It's called Character Development. This thread is about X-23's character development save the Hellion trolling on Hellion forums please.

#48 Posted by KingofMadCows (345 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, that is sort of the problem. The relationship between X-23 and Hellion was very static. They didn't really learn anything from each other. Neither of them really changed as a result of the relationship. Maybe X-23 learned a bit about herself but that was about it. You can't really judge either characters based on what little they had between them.

I think that the major reason why X-23's development has been stunted is because they don't really know where to put her. On one hand, she is a hyper competent commando with a lot of combat experience so in that regard, she should be with a more experienced team but on the other hand, she is an emotionally stunted child without a very good sense of self so that sense, she should be with a younger less experienced team. Neither is conducive for her character development. Putting her with a more experienced team will mean she'll have to deal much more professionally with everyone, resulting in less personal development. Putting her with a younger team will mean she'll outshine everyone on missions and in combat, which means they'll have to give her less attention outside of missions so they can be fair to the other characters and give them equal time.

#49 Posted by BaBaBoom (274 posts) - - Show Bio

@KingofMadCows: Are you saying that X-23 has to be in a team that can keep up with her without being too professional in order to develop as a character? If so, then I agree. It reminds me of her time with the X-Force, Cyclops brings out her professionalism, Wolverine gives her advice about being human, Domino is the one that doesn't feel weird around her, and Elixir fulfills the role of a peer. I don't know if I truly got what you meant but this is what I got out of it.

I want to know about your opinion on X-23's appearances in non-X-men related books, such as Avengers Academy, Fear It Self: Homefront and Circle of Four, does she fit with the non-mutant cast or does it feel like she's being forced into these titles just to be used? To me, it's the latter.

#50 Edited by KingofMadCows (345 posts) - - Show Bio

@BaBaBoom: That is what I'm saying but I'm also speculating about some of the behind the scenes stuff as to why that didn't really happen.

With New X-Men, I think the reason why she didn't get much development is because they used her more than the other characters in the action scenes, since she's more experienced than the other students, so the writers or the editors or whoever is in charge wanted her to be used less in other places so other characters can get some attention.

X-Force could have been the best place for her to develop but since they were on a time constraint with the whole Hope thing, it just had to be all business. They focus on their missions and they didn't really have the time for anything outside of that. You barely ever see them have any downtime. There just wasn't much time for a lot of character development there. I think Rahne was the only character who really did anything significant outside of their quest to take down Bastion and protect Hope but that's probably because she wasn't really involved in the missions. I think if X-Force wasn't constrained by the big X-Men arc with Hope and if they had the time outside of the missions to do more casual moments, they could have done a lot with X-23.

Not much happened in terms of character development in Fear Itself: Homecoming or Circle of Four since again, it was all about the mission and not much outside of that. Also, I don't think the writers understood the character that well, especially with Circle of Four where she was worried about not having a soul again even though she already knows she has a soul.

With Avengers Academy, I think they might run into the same problem as New X-Men. X-23 is just so much better with the missions and the action than the other Academy students that they pretty much have to use her more than the other characters in those parts. But again, if X-23 gets so much attention with the action, they have to balance things out by using her less in the other parts so other characters aren't neglected.

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