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    Wonder Woman

    Character » Wonder Woman appears in 8719 issues.

    The Amazon princess, blessed with god-like super abilities, Wonder Woman is one of Earth's most powerful defenders of peace, justice, and equality and a member of the Justice League. She is considered an archetype for many heroines outside of comic book. Her initial origin depicted her as a clay baby brought to life by patron goddess Aphrodite, but in recent years she has been depicted as the daughter of Zeus and Amazon queen Hippolyta.

    Your thoughts so far on the Superman/Wonder Woman series?

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    MPfly88

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    It's been 9 issues and I'm wondering what are people's opinion on it's run thus far? The series seems to keep getting positively reviewed for the most part, and has been one of the Top 40 best selling comics between DC and Marvel. In fact it's the highest selling comic that has Wonder Woman as a prominent character (not counting Justice League). It seems to be pretty successful so far. I don't think this spells good news for people who dislike the relationship though.

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    jdhaddad1973

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    I'm not in love with it ... But I don't hate it either. I think both characters have strong moments and wtf moments. I'd rather see them working together to solve problems instead of having "rescue each other" moments. I'd also like to see them explore all new threats rather than recycle SM's most powerful rogues. Put a fresh take on universe level threats instead of pulling the "who escaped the Phantom Zone this month" book out there.

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    deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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    Seems meh.

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    ArchiZoom

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    This book is an affront to feminism, in a nutshell. It flies in the face of everything Wonder Woman's supposed to stand for, possibly what I misguidedly thought Wonder Woman epitomized and doesn't pass the Bechdel test.

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    SCORPIO_CASSADINE

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    It's the best version of Wonder Woman in the New 52 and my favorite DC book right now.

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    jdhaddad1973

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    okay ... just want to stir up some commentary here so please don't get upset

    This book is an affront to feminism, in a nutshell. It flies in the face of everything Wonder Woman's supposed to stand for, possibly what I misguidedly thought Wonder Woman epitomized and doesn't pass the Bechdel test.

    Well since Hessia seems to be a creation solely for Diana to talk to about her relationship with Clark you are technically correct regarding the Bechdel test, but let's be fair here.

    1. The comic is supposed to be about SM and WW so it makes sense that Diana is talking about Clark to her friend. Hessia is the first friend we've seen from the N52 version of WW who was not directly related to the Solo series. In the missing 5 years there have clearly been other friends, but I find it refreshing that someone has introduced a person involved in Diana's life outside of pure super-hero-ing.

    2. It's not like the conversations Diana and Hessia have are silly chats about how cute Clark is or if she should text him back right away or wait for 30 minutes before she response. They are, for the most part, having serious conversations about dealing with a relationship with someone who is from a vastly different background and trying to learn how to best manage the differences.

    3. I would see this as a much bigger fail if Clark wasn't ALSO doing the same thing with his buddies ... he and the Bat pretty much do the same thing that Hessia and Diana do ... discuss how SM and WW should manage their relationship.

    4. Clark is by any account the more "whipped" individual in the relationship ... Diana seems to be working on figuring out how to communicate her feelings to him while he's sitting around worried that she might get hurt ... and she puts him in his place whenever he starts the whole "you got hurt because of me" bit.

    I've asked this question of a couple of people, but I would love to hear from you as to why you think having a boyfriend somehow demeans WW or is, as you put it, an affront to feminism. It's true, previous versions of WW were more well rounded, but they were also mostly much older and more experienced than this version. Even the N52 version seems pretty clear about empowering women. She goes so far as to tell SM that he needs her to teach him how to fight because he's (using my own words here) a spaz on the battlefield, relying on nothing but raw power, she basically told him flat out that she would kick his ass if they fought. Some would go so far as to say she's emasculating HIM when she pulled the strategic retreat bit to save him from an ass-whupping then turned around and Han Solo'd him when he dropped the "I love you" card. That particular moment was more bothersome to me than almost any other point in the series ... Diana came across as a bitch with that comment.

    I don't love the series, I find it OKAY, but I don't think it's actually hurting WW as a character or what she stands for as a hero.

    It's the best version of Wonder Woman in the New 52 and my favorite DC book right now.

    What about this version do you find so appealing? How is she better than Pre-Crisis versions? I like the character, but I think I see more potential in this version than actual accomplishment.

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    primebonnick

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    I love it one of the best DC titles that i'm buying. All we need now (and i'm sure we will get it in the next arc) is a wonder woman based plot with her villains.

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    jdhaddad1973

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    I love it one of the best DC titles that i'm buying. All we need now (and i'm sure we will get it in the next arc) is a wonder woman based plot with her villains.

    this is my major complaint about the series ... WW has thus far felt more like a secondary character because the whole thing has been based on conflict with SM's enemies.

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    SCORPIO_CASSADINE

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    #9  Edited By SCORPIO_CASSADINE

    @jdhaddad1973 said:

    okay ... just want to stir up some commentary here so please don't get upset

    @archizoom said:

    This book is an affront to feminism, in a nutshell. It flies in the face of everything Wonder Woman's supposed to stand for, possibly what I misguidedly thought Wonder Woman epitomized and doesn't pass the Bechdel test.

    Well since Hessia seems to be a creation solely for Diana to talk to about her relationship with Clark you are technically correct regarding the Bechdel test, but let's be fair here.

    1. The comic is supposed to be about SM and WW so it makes sense that Diana is talking about Clark to her friend. Hessia is the first friend we've seen from the N52 version of WW who was not directly related to the Solo series. In the missing 5 years there have clearly been other friends, but I find it refreshing that someone has introduced a person involved in Diana's life outside of pure super-hero-ing.

    2. It's not like the conversations Diana and Hessia have are silly chats about how cute Clark is or if she should text him back right away or wait for 30 minutes before she response. They are, for the most part, having serious conversations about dealing with a relationship with someone who is from a vastly different background and trying to learn how to best manage the differences.

    3. I would see this as a much bigger fail if Clark wasn't ALSO doing the same thing with his buddies ... he and the Bat pretty much do the same thing that Hessia and Diana do ... discuss how SM and WW should manage their relationship.

    4. Clark is by any account the more "whipped" individual in the relationship ... Diana seems to be working on figuring out how to communicate her feelings to him while he's sitting around worried that she might get hurt ... and she puts him in his place whenever he starts the whole "you got hurt because of me" bit.

    I've asked this question of a couple of people, but I would love to hear from you as to why you think having a boyfriend somehow demeans WW or is, as you put it, an affront to feminism. It's true, previous versions of WW were more well rounded, but they were also mostly much older and more experienced than this version. Even the N52 version seems pretty clear about empowering women. She goes so far as to tell SM that he needs her to teach him how to fight because he's (using my own words here) a spaz on the battlefield, relying on nothing but raw power, she basically told him flat out that she would kick his ass if they fought. Some would go so far as to say she's emasculating HIM when she pulled the strategic retreat bit to save him from an ass-whupping then turned around and Han Solo'd him when he dropped the "I love you" card. That particular moment was more bothersome to me than almost any other point in the series ... Diana came across as a bitch with that comment.

    I don't love the series, I find it OKAY, but I don't think it's actually hurting WW as a character or what she stands for as a hero.

    @scorpio_cassadine said:

    It's the best version of Wonder Woman in the New 52 and my favorite DC book right now.

    What about this version do you find so appealing? How is she better than Pre-Crisis versions? I like the character, but I think I see more potential in this version than actual accomplishment.

    She's not better than the pre-Flashpoint version but she's the best Wonder Woman in the New 52. So far in Superman/Wonder Woman we've gotten Hessia: an Amazon that finally has some sense, Doom's Doorway, the start of Purple Ray technology, an invisible chariot, Angle Man and Blue Snowman and Wonder Woman mentoring young girls like she used to do, a Paradise Island that actually looks like paradise and a Diana that looks like a beautifully feminine goddess.

    None of that is anywhere in Azzarello's Olympian adventure series. It's like comparing a tainted Egg McMuffin to a Denny's Grand Slam Breakfast, one leaves you happy and satisfied, while the other leaves you still hungry, plus a little sick.

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    jdhaddad1973

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    @jdhaddad1973 said:

    okay ... just want to stir up some commentary here so please don't get upset

    @archizoom said:

    This book is an affront to feminism, in a nutshell. It flies in the face of everything Wonder Woman's supposed to stand for, possibly what I misguidedly thought Wonder Woman epitomized and doesn't pass the Bechdel test.

    Well since Hessia seems to be a creation solely for Diana to talk to about her relationship with Clark you are technically correct regarding the Bechdel test, but let's be fair here.

    1. The comic is supposed to be about SM and WW so it makes sense that Diana is talking about Clark to her friend. Hessia is the first friend we've seen from the N52 version of WW who was not directly related to the Solo series. In the missing 5 years there have clearly been other friends, but I find it refreshing that someone has introduced a person involved in Diana's life outside of pure super-hero-ing.

    2. It's not like the conversations Diana and Hessia have are silly chats about how cute Clark is or if she should text him back right away or wait for 30 minutes before she response. They are, for the most part, having serious conversations about dealing with a relationship with someone who is from a vastly different background and trying to learn how to best manage the differences.

    3. I would see this as a much bigger fail if Clark wasn't ALSO doing the same thing with his buddies ... he and the Bat pretty much do the same thing that Hessia and Diana do ... discuss how SM and WW should manage their relationship.

    4. Clark is by any account the more "whipped" individual in the relationship ... Diana seems to be working on figuring out how to communicate her feelings to him while he's sitting around worried that she might get hurt ... and she puts him in his place whenever he starts the whole "you got hurt because of me" bit.

    I've asked this question of a couple of people, but I would love to hear from you as to why you think having a boyfriend somehow demeans WW or is, as you put it, an affront to feminism. It's true, previous versions of WW were more well rounded, but they were also mostly much older and more experienced than this version. Even the N52 version seems pretty clear about empowering women. She goes so far as to tell SM that he needs her to teach him how to fight because he's (using my own words here) a spaz on the battlefield, relying on nothing but raw power, she basically told him flat out that she would kick his ass if they fought. Some would go so far as to say she's emasculating HIM when she pulled the strategic retreat bit to save him from an ass-whupping then turned around and Han Solo'd him when he dropped the "I love you" card. That particular moment was more bothersome to me than almost any other point in the series ... Diana came across as a bitch with that comment.

    I don't love the series, I find it OKAY, but I don't think it's actually hurting WW as a character or what she stands for as a hero.

    @scorpio_cassadine said:

    It's the best version of Wonder Woman in the New 52 and my favorite DC book right now.

    What about this version do you find so appealing? How is she better than Pre-Crisis versions? I like the character, but I think I see more potential in this version than actual accomplishment.

    She's not better than the pre-Flashpoint version but she's the best Wonder Woman in the New 52. So far in Superman/Wonder Woman we've gotten Hessia: an Amazon that finally has some sense, Doom's Doorway, the start of Purple Ray technology, an invisible chariot, Angle Man and Blue Snowman and Wonder Woman mentoring young girls like she used to do, a Paradise Island that actually looks like paradise and a Diana that looks like a beautifully feminine goddess.

    None of that is anywhere in Azzarello's Olympian adventure series. It's like comparing a tainted Egg McMuffin to a Denny's Grand Slam Breakfast, one leaves you happy and satisfied, while the other leaves you still hungry, plus a little sick.

    HA! Too bad the choices are Egg McMuffin v. GSB :)

    I like Azzarello's self-contained style for the solo series ... I quickly get tired of cross-overs events and outside influences driving a solo series. But I can see why some prefer the style of Soule and the SM/WW book.

    Hessia still feels a little forced to me ... seems more like a character built specifically to be an information source about Amazons rather than having true purpose herself. At times it feels like Diana may as well be speaking to herself so the audience can learn a bit about Amazon stuff. I'm hoping the purple ray technology being introduced and seemingly being the reason Hessia left Paradise Island is foreshadowing into a good arc revolving around WW's villains. Feels like it will be a waste if it's not. I'm looking forward to them moving on from Doomed and into something not so SM centric with the title.

    It took me a few issues with Chiang's art to really appreciate how powerful it is ... now I'm totally hooked on the style and will be sad to see it go to the more traditional style we see in SM/WW. The solo series really stands out to me because the art fits the storytelling so well and gives the entire series a gritty dark feeling that I wasn't sure I liked at first, but have truly come to appreciate over time. Azzarello has certainly taken his time (too much some would say) to tell this story so I do see where the character has suffered from a lack of world building ... too many unanswered questions about Amazons, Gods, Diana's personal history etc... once the FB business is complete I'm looking forward to a few good arcs that will fill in some of the blanks on WWs history and showing her story in the world outside of Olympus.

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    primebonnick

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    @jdhaddad1973: relax man it was all good supes enemies are more known so i don't blame DC and soule for using them first to get the new readers and wanting the old ones to see the new take on them. I'm sure the next arc will be about wonder woman especially since hessia is so mysterious and will be developed in this book. Heck i hope Ex from demon knights makes an appearance too.

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    MakkyD

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    @archizoom: The bechdel test is considered pretty flawed by most writers.

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    jdhaddad1973

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    @jdhaddad1973: relax man it was all good supes enemies are more known so i don't blame DC and soule for using them first to get the new readers and wanting the old ones to see the new take on them. I'm sure the next arc will be about wonder woman especially since hessia is so mysterious and will be developed in this book. Heck i hope Ex from demon knights makes an appearance too.

    I'm not worked up about it ... DC/Soule made some good choices to start out with SM villains, but it's time to explore new things IMO. I also think they could have explored the Apollo/Zod/Faora connection on panel a little more, would have given more depth to the story and made it feel less like "WW was just helping SM out". Instead they settled for a few lines of dialogue. Not horrible, but could have been interesting to have developed some characters a bit. For example, could Apollo generate red sunlight and actually be a major problem for SM? So far they haven't really given SM reasons to become a better fighter ... moot point now, but it would have been interesting to see SM have to deal with a god who can essentially depower him and hates his guts.

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    primebonnick

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    @primebonnick said:

    @jdhaddad1973: relax man it was all good supes enemies are more known so i don't blame DC and soule for using them first to get the new readers and wanting the old ones to see the new take on them. I'm sure the next arc will be about wonder woman especially since hessia is so mysterious and will be developed in this book. Heck i hope Ex from demon knights makes an appearance too.

    I'm not worked up about it ... DC/Soule made some good choices to start out with SM villains, but it's time to explore new things IMO. I also think they could have explored the Apollo/Zod/Faora connection on panel a little more, would have given more depth to the story and made it feel less like "WW was just helping SM out". Instead they settled for a few lines of dialogue. Not horrible, but could have been interesting to have developed some characters a bit. For example, could Apollo generate red sunlight and actually be a major problem for SM? So far they haven't really given SM reasons to become a better fighter ... moot point now, but it would have been interesting to see SM have to deal with a god who can essentially depower him and hates his guts.

    well you can't blame for the editorial mandate of "doomed" not his fault he had to hold off on his arc to include this event. Heck he is gonna have to do it for Future's End too. So lets just be patient even he himself said he can't wait to use wonder woman's rogues.

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    jdhaddad1973

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    @primebonnick: patience is for the weak! JK ... I'm not really in love with Soule's writing to be perfectly honest, so I'm not convinced he's going to do justice to WW rogues who have to take on the couple rather than Diana alone. Aside from the Olympians and Circe and maybe (big maybe) Cheetah her rogues will be difficult to make exciting ... Perhaps Dr. Poison will discover some form of Kryptonite that will have a new affect or Giganta will turn back into a monkey ;) in his defense I think he's backed into a bit of a corner. Azzarello has made a nearly 3-year arc around nothing but the Olympians so I can't see Soule wanting to do much with them for a while ... And I think there may actually be a revolt from the fan base if we don't get some of our classic WW villains back soon. Maybe we'll see a massively empowered version of a GA villain like Baroness Paula Von Gunther or Giganta or Dr. Cyber. Dr. Psycho seems to have moved to the Super-franchise and may now be dead? Cheetah is still at large post FE so I'm sure she'll turn up along the road too.

    Who would you like to see specifically for SM/WW book?

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    primebonnick

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    @jdhaddad1973: don't forget nemesis especially since they will use her in the Future's end story when diana goes full on kratos. I honestly would like to see cersi and i wouldn't mind if he adds clea to it been a long time since she was used as WW enemy.

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    jdhaddad1973

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    @jdhaddad1973: don't forget nemesis especially since they will use her in the Future's end story when diana goes full on kratos. I honestly would like to see cersi and i wouldn't mind if he adds clea to it been a long time since she was used as WW enemy.

    very good options! I'd love to see them bring back some of the old school villains with some modern upgrades ... Duke of Deception could be a good spin off of the Olympians story line since he was in the mythology of Ares (Mars). I'm curious to see how the move forward with Hessia ... she's got some Shim'tar similarities going on with that armor so I wonder if they'll make her into a rival/villain or if they'll keep her as Diana's confidant. Genocide could be a cool Doomsday counterpoint for the SM/WW title too, especially if she gets the lasso from Diana.

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    primebonnick

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    @primebonnick said:

    @jdhaddad1973: don't forget nemesis especially since they will use her in the Future's end story when diana goes full on kratos. I honestly would like to see cersi and i wouldn't mind if he adds clea to it been a long time since she was used as WW enemy.

    very good options! I'd love to see them bring back some of the old school villains with some modern upgrades ... Duke of Deception could be a good spin off of the Olympians story line since he was in the mythology of Ares (Mars). I'm curious to see how the move forward with Hessia ... she's got some Shim'tar similarities going on with that armor so I wonder if they'll make her into a rival/villain or if they'll keep her as Diana's confidant. Genocide could be a cool Doomsday counterpoint for the SM/WW title too, especially if she gets the lasso from Diana.

    true true as i said we just gotta wait and see especially since donna troy is gonna show up in the series soon as well so wondy will get her time.

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    jdhaddad1973

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    @jdhaddad1973 said:

    @primebonnick said:

    @jdhaddad1973: don't forget nemesis especially since they will use her in the Future's end story when diana goes full on kratos. I honestly would like to see cersi and i wouldn't mind if he adds clea to it been a long time since she was used as WW enemy.

    very good options! I'd love to see them bring back some of the old school villains with some modern upgrades ... Duke of Deception could be a good spin off of the Olympians story line since he was in the mythology of Ares (Mars). I'm curious to see how the move forward with Hessia ... she's got some Shim'tar similarities going on with that armor so I wonder if they'll make her into a rival/villain or if they'll keep her as Diana's confidant. Genocide could be a cool Doomsday counterpoint for the SM/WW title too, especially if she gets the lasso from Diana.

    true true as i said we just gotta wait and see especially since donna troy is gonna show up in the series soon as well so wondy will get her time.

    I must have missed the Donna announcement ... wonder how they'll play that ... hope it's better than the reintro of Wally West :(

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    primebonnick

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    @jdhaddad1973: lol everyone is complaining about poor wally well lets just wait and see

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    Outside_85

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    @jdhaddad1973: It's not been announced as such, Donna's name just appeared as one on a list of named under the SM/WW header during one of DC All Access' sneaking into Didio's office.

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    jdhaddad1973

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    @jdhaddad1973: It's not been announced as such, Donna's name just appeared as one on a list of named under the SM/WW header during one of DC All Access' sneaking into Didio's office.

    Okay ... that I saw, just didn't take it seriously :)

    @jdhaddad1973: lol everyone is complaining about poor wally well lets just wait and see

    I'm not a fan of making someone bi-racial just for the sake of it. I'm bi-racial and and gay and to be honest, this one feels more forced than some of the others ... DC clearly wanted to inject diversity into the lineup, which I'm all for, but a few of these changes felt gratuitous rather than natural, Wally being high on that list ... ever met an Hispanic kid named Wally? Half-assed diversity is worse than no diversity ... he's still basically a white kid, just a little browner than he used to be ... I can get behind changes and new characters when they actually mean more than lip-service. I hope they explore the racial background they've given him, it could make for a truly interesting storyline, but so far beyond his skin tone he's about as hispanic as Barry.

    Etta Candy being skinny bothers me more than her being a black woman, her whole character was built around her being a fat girl in the early years and later the fight to lose the weight was character re-defining, to introduce her as a skinny girl from the jump feels wrong to me. Alan Scott being gay feel a little forced too, but since Earth 2 pretty much just ignored it once his partner died it doesn't really seem to be a big deal.

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    ArchiZoom

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    @jdhaddad1973: I don't think that having a boyfriend demeans Wonder Woman by no stretch of the imagination, that's a bit of a baseless assumption. Love, sex, companionship are basic human needs, she's not human but I think the Gods have the same ones and I wouldn't want Wonder Woman to go without.

    However the idea of pairing Wonder Woman with the man she's overshadowed by is not one that could've come from me but the book didn't necessarily have to be a Twilight knock-off. I didn't think Soule would go as far as deliberately designing scenes with no other purpose than bringing her weaknesses to light, all of them and then some so that Superman can be his protective self. Personality-wise this Wonder Woman is a rather sad, pathetic, manicured, stupid little bitch.

    And while it makes sense that she talks about the man she's infatuated with, she doesn't talk about anything else, her thoughts are consumed with Superman. You're still not seeing the bigger picture. The only time Wonder Woman opened her mouth to say something that didn't concern Superman was when she gave a pep talk to those little girls. They come across as one of those self-absorbed couples, they never hang out with friends or anything. However Superman revealed he needed space so when all is said and done, the fact that she Han Solo'd him was rather meaningless and silly

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    jdhaddad1973

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    @jdhaddad1973: I don't think that having a boyfriend demeans Wonder Woman by no stretch of the imagination, that's a bit of a baseless assumption. Love, sex, companionship are basic human needs, she's not human but I think the Gods have the same ones and I wouldn't want Wonder Woman to go without.

    However the idea of pairing Wonder Woman with the man she's overshadowed by is not one that could've come from me but the book didn't necessarily have to be a Twilight knock-off. I didn't think Soule would go as far as deliberately designing scenes with no other purpose than bringing her weaknesses to light, all of them and then some so that Superman can be his protective self. Personality-wise this Wonder Woman is a rather sad, pathetic, manicured, stupid little bitch.

    And while it makes sense that she talks about the man she's infatuated with, she doesn't talk about anything else, her thoughts are consumed with Superman. You're still not seeing the bigger picture. The only time Wonder Woman opened her mouth to say something that didn't concern Superman was when she gave a pep talk to those little girls. They come across as one of those self-absorbed couples, they never hang out with friends or anything. However Superman revealed he needed space so when all is said and done, the fact that she Han Solo'd him was rather meaningless and silly

    When you make a comment like "it's an affront to feminism" in regards to a publication that's sole purpose is to explore the relationship between WW and SM you are asking for the assumption that you are commenting on the relationship itself. What is an example of a WW era you think truly portrayed Diana as you want her to be? What is your favorite story-arc and how did it bring the attributes of WW to life that made it so awesome?

    You clearly have a very different take on the interactions in SM/WW than I do (although the Twilight reference is inline with my view). Personally I find the book lacking because it feels like they are trying so hard to avoid making one character look better than the other that they end up in this middle ground of bland. One second SM is saving WW the next she is saving him, it's trite, but I wouldn't say WW is coming off as overshadowed by SM so much as they are trying to keep score the feats in the series. It almost feels like they are trying too hard to prove that she is as powerful as he is and are forgetting that both characters are symbols for things aside from just power. And it's not like SM is the best version of himself in this book either, in fact we've seen very little of the Clark/human side of him so far.

    He 'needed space' after she Han Solo'd him ... and is still clearly bothered by it as revealed in the Doomed arc.

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    primebonnick

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    @outside_85 said:

    @jdhaddad1973: It's not been announced as such, Donna's name just appeared as one on a list of named under the SM/WW header during one of DC All Access' sneaking into Didio's office.

    Okay ... that I saw, just didn't take it seriously :)

    @primebonnick said:

    @jdhaddad1973: lol everyone is complaining about poor wally well lets just wait and see

    I'm not a fan of making someone bi-racial just for the sake of it. I'm bi-racial and and gay and to be honest, this one feels more forced than some of the others ... DC clearly wanted to inject diversity into the lineup, which I'm all for, but a few of these changes felt gratuitous rather than natural, Wally being high on that list ... ever met an Hispanic kid named Wally? Half-assed diversity is worse than no diversity ... he's still basically a white kid, just a little browner than he used to be ... I can get behind changes and new characters when they actually mean more than lip-service. I hope they explore the racial background they've given him, it could make for a truly interesting storyline, but so far beyond his skin tone he's about as hispanic as Barry.

    Etta Candy being skinny bothers me more than her being a black woman, her whole character was built around her being a fat girl in the early years and later the fight to lose the weight was character re-defining, to introduce her as a skinny girl from the jump feels wrong to me. Alan Scott being gay feel a little forced too, but since Earth 2 pretty much just ignored it once his partner died it doesn't really seem to be a big deal.

    yea alan scott being gay does bother me i mean it just cuts out jade being his daughter now sigh. I agree though they shouldn't have changed wally and isis so much but such is a new universe. It can be retconned easily if it doesn't work out any way.

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    ArchiZoom

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    @jdhaddad1973: Not necessarily, the idea behind the book is fine, it's the execution that I have problems with. For some sick reason Soule seems intent on proving Superman's superiority so obviously we don't think alike. If Soule was avoiding comparisons then he wouldn't literally and unnecessarily compare them all the time.

    The scene where she "saved" Superman from Zod and Faora was a last-ditch attempt to appease the hoi polloi because people seethed with madness after seeing the solicit. It worked because we're all so effing stupid. However that showing went down the toilet when she fought Faora in round 2 and Superman revealed his concern for Wonder Woman's safety, even Faora told Wonder Woman: you should call you man, perhaps he can protect you (wtf) although it was Wonder Woman who kicked their butts the day before. It just doesn't compute.

    Anyway, my favorite Wonder Woman personality-wise was Simone's and I think they did a pretty decent job in JLU. Those Wonder Womans were strong, driven, sharp with a little bit of sass, that's how I see Wonder Woman.

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    CSG_CL

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    @archizoom: WW and SM during the second battle were deliberately losing in order to build up the power of the armor Hephaestus built for Doom ... The the comment "do you think 100 is enough". It should be obvious to the most casual reader that WW had Faora well in hand and Zod was more than impressed with her.

    PS I am the same poster as jdhaddad1973 ... For some reason I couldn't log into my account and was forced to build a new profile :(

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    CSG_CL

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    #28  Edited By CSG_CL

    @primebonnick: I know dozens of gay dudes who have kids (including biological kids) ... Doesn't eliminate the possibility, just makes it a little more difficult to navigate.

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    primebonnick

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    @csg_cl: well that is true but with how they are shaping earth 2 i doubt jade will be in it or alan scott daughter in this universe.

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    jdhaddad1973

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    @csg_cl: well that is true but with how they are shaping earth 2 i doubt jade will be in it or alan scott daughter in this universe.

    probably not ... obsidian too ... but you never know, maybe they'll show up as "energy babies" of Scot and the Green :)

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    Superguy1591

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    Soule couldn't write a more boring Superman if he tried, I really wish someone else would take over this book. Even Lobdell wrote a better romance between the two than what Soule is doing.

    Soule's Superman is such a lame.

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    Superguy1591

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    #32  Edited By Superguy1591

    @archizoom: You think Wonder Woman was steong in JLU? You just blew my mind, didn't Batman tell Wonder Woman that he couldn't be with her because he can't protect her--Batman... says he can't protect Wonder Woman implying that she's weaker or a potential DID...Batman-and you're okay with that and think it's better than how she is portrayed here? And then Diana chased after him like a sick puppy looking for love?

    Oh man, I'm starting to think your problem isn't with Soule, but with Superman.

    Heck, Wonder Woman was far weaker than Superman in JLU than in regular continuity.

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    ArchiZoom

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    @csg_cl: what, because Zod told Superman he likes his women strong like Wonder Woman. That doesn't mean she's strong as in strong enough to contend with men as much as just strong for being a woman. What if Zod told Superman what Faora told Wonder Woman, wouldn't that demean Superman? think about it

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    ArchiZoom

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    #34  Edited By ArchiZoom

    @superguy1591: I did clearly say I liked her -personality- in justice league unlimited. For one her voice was perfect and the way I see it, she didn't chase Batman like a puppy begging for love like she did with Superman in Red Son, she courted him like a man would a woman. He did have feelings for her and I really do hate Charles Soule, I even read his masterpiece - the Swamp Thing and it didn't surprise me to see it's nowhere as good as people say. He had Alec kill the Parliament of Trees and every single one of his predecessors save 3 and then brag about it. He also destroyed the rice paddies without so much as giving a shit about the hungry people who depended upon them. There's something uniquely awful about Soule, I believe his characters are a reflection of his own hideousness

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    jdhaddad1973

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    @csg_cl: what, because Zod told Superman he likes his women strong like Wonder Woman. That doesn't mean she's strong as in strong enough to contend with men as much as just strong for being a woman. What if Zod told Superman what Faora told Wonder Woman, wouldn't that demean Superman? think about it

    I think SM was the one demeaned in that entire exchange. Of the 4 individuals he was the only one not being taken as a serious threat because all of the others had combat experience. Diana showed in the first encounter that she was easily a match for Faora, and Zod spoke to her as an equal, something he never did with Clark. In fact the comment you are referencing was a taunt thrown at SM to tell him Zod found WW to be the actual challenge they faced, basically saying "you need a woman to save your ass". Villains taunt heroes ... Faora was doing the same thing to WW, and what better insult to hurl at WW than tell her she needs a man for protection? Faora also mocked her by calling the armor "jewelry". They were trash talking to see if they could get under their opponents skin.

    To be honest, I think these few issues were by far WW best showing in the series, first she captured Zod, then she beat down on both of Zod and Faora in the first fight, then she thought of the Doomsday suit for the second encounter and only lost when Apollo sundipped her enemies after she and SM had already taken a beating to enact their original plan. SM is the one who looked a bit lame throughout this arc, he locks up the prisoner Diana captured in a storage locker that basically still had a combination of 1-2-3-4-5 ... then got his butt kicked before WW swooped in and saved him. Then he get's Han Solo'd ... he didn't do much right throughout this little arc.

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    Superguy1591

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    #36  Edited By Superguy1591

    @archizoom: Que? She chased after him, he never once carried out the chase. I know he was written as interested in her, but he never onced paid her much mind. Check out the episode when they became kids and she's starving for his attention and her ignores her.

    That was their "relationship", she chased him, he ignored her. Even when the implemented the relationship in the comics, the same thing. She wants him, he can't be bothered, she can't take the hint.

    And I didn't like it in Red Son either, except Red Son's Superman was a complete @$$ for most of the series that I give it a pass, but she was not a strong woman in either JLU or RS. KC had the best depiction of their relationship.

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    Superguy1591

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    @jdhaddad1973: She doesn't want to see it, Superman has been Bella in this book. He's been so useless, it's embarrassing. In her mind, Wonder Woman is Lois Lane with Superman doing all the heavy lifting.

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    Catriona_Knightfall

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    I haven't read the last couple of issues, but I went into this series expecting to hate it (and there a few things that really don't sit well with me - not least of which is the pairing itself), so it's really a testament to Soule that I'm still at least a little interested in the series. I think I'm gonna be dropping soon, though.

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    derf_jenkins

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    I am a fan of Soule, so I started reading this series awhile back. I have enjoyed it for the most part. Some of it is off a little, but we are talking about comic books here.

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    ArchiZoom

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    #40  Edited By ArchiZoom

    @jdhaddad1973: But the feat is worthless because it was improvised. No one actually believes Wonder Woman could take care of Zod and Faora by herself when Superman got badly pummeled by them. Soule only did it to appease the fans. When they struck Zod with a laser beam, he told Faora to charge at Wonder Woman because Superman would protect her - They see Superman as weak because all the love and care hold him back.

    We can both agree that Superman's portrayed as an idiot that only this dumbass Wonder Woman could fall in love with but he's decidedly the strongest half of this relationship and you don't need to read between the lines to figure that out.

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    jdhaddad1973

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    #41  Edited By jdhaddad1973

    @archizoom: Que? She chased after him, he never once carried out the chase. I know he was written as interested in her, but he never onced paid her much mind. Check out the episode when they became kids and she's starving for his attention and her ignores her.

    That was their "relationship", she chased him, he ignored her. Even when the implemented the relationship in the comics, the same thing. She wants him, he can't be bothered, she can't take the hint.

    And I didn't like it in Red Son either, except Red Son's Superman was a complete @$$ for most of the series that I give it a pass, but she was not a strong woman in either JLU or RS. KC had the best depiction of their relationship.

    He clearly shows interest in her in JLU ... the episode when she's turned into a pig by Circe? And he's constantly giving his speech about "she's a trusted colleague and a valued friend" to other characters in the show ... who pretty much all think he's full of crap. True he does push her away with his words, but he's always right back in the thick of things. Dancing with Diana as Bruce Wayne? He did not ignore her.

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    ArchiZoom

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    @superguy1591: Kingdom Come where Wonder Woman was literally Superman's subordinate and discernibly weak and unimportant compared to him. Can't say I loved Kingdom Come.

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    Superguy1591

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    @jdhaddad1973: Never said he kicked her out of bed, he just made it clear that they werent going to happen and she kept trying to convince him otherwise.

    He never, not once, tried to court her, she courted him and he believed thar she needed protection. She was a schoolgirl chasing a bad boy in JLU and I just dont know why people think she's immature enough to find that attractive. She

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    Superguy1591

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    @archizoom: I know a lot of people refuse to comprehend this, but Kingdom Come was a Superman story about Superman and his role in the DCU. Why would Wonder Woman play as huge a role as him in HIS story?

    Diana was his lieutenant, sure, but she was in charge the whole time. He couldn't inspire anyone anymore and he was only the face of their Justice League. The point was made quite clear when Wonder Woman told him she was leaving and everyone followed her.

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    jdhaddad1973

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    #45  Edited By jdhaddad1973

    @jdhaddad1973: But the feat is worthless because it was improvised. No one actually believes Wonder Woman could take care of Zod and Faora by herself when Superman got badly pummeled by them. Soule only did it to appease the fans. When they struck Zod with a laser beam, he told Faora to charge at Wonder Woman because Superman would protect her - They see Superman as weak because all the love and care hold him back.

    We can both agree that Superman's portrayed as an idiot that only this dumbass Wonder Woman could fall in love with but he's decidedly the strongest half of this relationship and you don't need to read between the lines to figure it out.

    I very much doubt that Soule gives a rats butt about "appeasing" fans, is there a quote someplace from Soule stating this is the case?

    IMO, the action in that arc felt natural, Diana shows up and lays claim to her man. Zod sees the weakness in SM's reaction and tried to exploit it ... WW is the one to tell Clark to focus on his own fight, while she easily took down Faora. Hell in the end it was ZOD who couldn't stand to see his woman losing that called the truce!

    SM was raised to protect those around him so it's instinctual to his character to do so. He even makes a comment to the effect of "are we not as effective as a couple" because he can't seem to stop himself from trying to protect the woman he loves. Even when she clearly doesn't need it ... she puts him in his place after that comment too, effectively telling him she would end it herself if that became the case.

    You appease fans with after-thought dialogue, but full action sequences like this are planned and part of the story idea from the get-go

    No Caption Provided

    And you certainly don't put moments like this in there if you are trying to make a woman seem weak

    No Caption Provided

    And you certainly don't make SM look like the liability in the fight if you are trying to deliberately make him dominate WW

    No Caption Provided

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    ArchiZoom

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    @superguy1591: Kingdom Come is a Justice League story slanted in favor of Superman, about how Superman is the greatest and most important superhero in the world and how the Justice League cannot subsist without him. Wonder Woman is chopped bloody liver.

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    jdhaddad1973

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    #47  Edited By jdhaddad1973

    @jdhaddad1973: Never said he kicked her out of bed, he just made it clear that they werent going to happen and she kept trying to convince him otherwise.

    He never, not once, tried to court her, she courted him and he believed thar she needed protection. She was a schoolgirl chasing a bad boy in JLU and I just dont know why people think she's immature enough to find that attractive. She

    Not actively courting her and and not being interested are very different things. Batman always pushes women away for fear that they will get hurt. But JLU Batman clearly wanted more too ...

    No Caption Provided

    and the fact that he humiliates himself to save her from Circe rather than expose her embarrassment to the entire league? Subtext is often more overt than the words characters speak.

    No Caption Provided

    And he certainly freaks out when he thinks she was killed stopping that rocket ... digging through the rubble screaming her name ...

    No Caption Provided

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    Dextersinister

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    To the OP, I think this book is fantastic

    @jdhaddad1973 for all intensive purposes that Batman is a completely separate character, yes they set up feelings for Batman and Diana in the animated show but those events mean nothing to the comic book versions.

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    jdhaddad1973

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    To the OP, I think this book is fantastic

    @jdhaddad1973 for all intensive purposes that Batman is a completely separate character, yes they set up feelings for Batman and Diana in the animated show but those events mean nothing to the comic book versions.

    yes I know, we were discussing the JL/JLU animated show specifically, thus the examples were meant to be from the show and that version of BM/WW

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    Superguy1591

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    @archizoom: Kingdom Come is Superman's TDKReturns, the JL only play a supporting role in the story. Every character revolves around Superman because it's his story. Diana is his love interest, Batman his best-friend and Luthor is the main villain.

    And Superman IS the greatest superhero ever, he's the reason Batman and Wonder Woman exist in the first place. Batman was created to be a hero Superman without powers and Diana was Superman, but with a vagina. You keep trying to push this false narrative of their relationship, but you're wrong. She's been portrayed as the strongest of the two emotionally all along he's been a walking stiff.

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