Wonder Woman People AND Superman people The futile Debate (BLOG)

#1 Edited by FlagSister (95 posts) - - Show Bio

(This was posted by WDW It was a pretty good post so I figured I would repost it here )

Wonder Woman People AND Superman people (with regard to the battle thread)

Wonder Woman Vs Superman BATTLE is one of the most debated issues in comic book history and apparently one of the hardest to resolve. After about a year of debating this topic I have come to the conclusion that Wonder Woman people and Superman people have a fundamental difference in the way they rate the abilities of the respective characters. This fundamental difference makes it impossible to have any kind of realistic debate.

SUPERMAN PEOPLE (battle situations)

In general, I define Superman people as people who place the most value on strength, durability and speed as factors for a characters win over the other in the absence of other abilities like mind control, intangibility, time shifting to name a few.

Superman has enormous strength feats primarily against the environment. This fact is consistent throughout Superman's history and nobody should argue that any mainstream hero in the DC universe is stronger than Superman. Superman has equally impressive speed feats against the environment and nobody should argue that any mainstream hero in the DC universe can go from point A to B faster than superman accept Speedsters. Superman's durability vs. the environment is second to none in the DC Universe. It can be said in all actuality that Superman is the most powerful mainstream being in the DC universe. This is established DC canon and probably will not change ever.

Fortunately for superman people, strength, durability and speed are things everyone is familiar with. It's easy to spot and measure and is pretty much awe inspiring when it is displayed.

Unfortunately for Superman, in the real world superior strength, durability and speed (from point A to B) rarely result in automatic wins in competition level fights/duels.

WONDER WOMAN PEOPLE (battle Situation)

Wonder Woman people value Skill/Speed, training/Combat Knowledge and weapon usage as the primary factor for a characters success in battle as long as there strength and durability are regarded as good enough to stand-up to stronger beings. They site numerous feats where Wonder Woman has stood up to beings as strong as or stronger than herself and in some cases standing up to multiple beings as strong and durable as her. The key theme in Wonder Woman's origin and background as well as pretty much every other combat/melee based hero literature including comics, is that skill/training combat knowledge and tactics are more important than raw strength, durability and (travel speed). One of the most notable examples of that theme is when Hippolyta defeated Hercules a being clearly MUCH stronger and durable than herself using only her fighting skills.

Fortunately for Wonder Woman people, in the real world Skill/speed training/Combat knowledge are all seen as way more important than raw strength, durability and (Travel speed) when it comes to fighting contests between 2 people of similar strength, durability and speed.

Unfortunately for Wonder Woman she does not exist in the real world. The world she lives in does not obey law of physics. As a comic book it was never designed to and does not need to.

Also Wonder Woman is very unique. She is the only Superhero that has super strength on par with superman and combat/fighting skills ranked as one of the best in the DC universe however that is almost always over looked since she is the only one to have such abilities and to get the full sense of what that entails you need to read her comics.

SUPERMAN PEOPLE THE LOGIC OF THE WIN (supported by feats and evidence)

Superman is stronger faster (travel) and more durable. He usually holds back when he is fighting. He has shattered and moved planets he can survive inside the sun and survive a supernova. Superman has better raw strength feats than Wonder Woman.

WONDER WOMAN PEOPLE THE LOGIC OF THE WIN (supported by feats and evidence)

Superman has little to no fighting skills. Wonder Woman has beaten Krytonions and similar beings before. Wonder Woman has been hit by Superman many times and never been K.Oed Wonder Woman has magic weapons that are show to be able to cut and seriously injure Superman. Wonder Woman also holds back. Wonder Woman had faster reaction time and fight reflexes than superman.

Why Wonder Woman people are wrong and Superman people right

Superman is the most powerful being in the DC universe he is stronger faster and more durable. Even though Superman has punched wonder woman several times over the years and has yet to KO her, FEAT supported fact that superman can shatter planets with his punches means the argument can be made that he was "holding back" when he fought wonder woman. If superman is not holding back or is blood lusted wonder woman cannot survive his planet shattering KO punch if it connects. Superman simply has more strength, durability and travel speed feats than Wonder Woman.

The great thing about this argument is that it is simple and allows supporters to easily increase superman's strength durability and speed when needed. It easily explains away obvious contradictions in superman canon when he is seen being defeated by Wonder Woman and other less powerful beings. "Superman was holding back" it is a simple yet ingenious argument.

The problem with this argument is that is sounds like a copout to Wonder Woman people and it certainly does not lend itself to further discussion since there is no way to measure how much superman was holding back or if he was actually holding back or not.

The argument also completely ignores the fact that virtually all superhero's including Wonder Woman hold back when fighting since it is generally accepted that superhero's do not intend to cause fatal injuries in battle. However Wonder Woman people rarely use the fact to counter superman peoples claim that he holds back.

In addition, the argument that superman wins because he is more powerful i.e.... stronger faster (travel) and more durable does not translate well then you apply that same argument to characters like Batman, Black Canary, Lady Shiva ETC who routinely go up against more powerful, stronger, more durable opponents and beat them using pure skill and knowledge of combat.

Why Superman people are wrong and Wonder Woman people right

Generally in a real world setting if the fight takes place in a generic earth based setting between Superman and Wonder Woman and you accept the feat supported facts that Wonder Woman is a much better fighter has weapons that can kill him is considered to have faster combat reflexes. / Superior combat training, advanced tactical knowledge and is in the same strength, blunt force durability and travel speed* category as superman and is virtually immune to his heat vision** and has similar flight abilities. It's easy to see why Wonder Woman people say she would beat him.

(*Superman is faster** She can block it almost at will and is fairly resist to heat anyway.)

The great thing about this argument is that you establish a bench mark of abilities which can be compared to the DC Universe in a rational way logical way that avoids confusion. Since Batman, Shiva Batgirl, night wing, the karate kid, Black Canary, and countless other hero's operate on the premise that superior combat abilities and skill allow them to take on and defeat stronger and more durable beings, why can't wonder woman operate on the same premise since she is one of DC Universes top fighters.

The problem with this argument is that Superman canon and in-fact all canon involving beings with super strength, like Captain Marvel, Power girl, Black Adam, MMH DARKSIED ETC do not operate on the same basic real world premise in which BATMAN, CANARY and the other top fighters in DC comics operate on which is Superior skill and tactics is enough to win fights.

That concept does not exist when dealing with Superman level beings. There is NO heavy hitter at superman's strength level that has been formally trained in combat. Sure there are footnotes here and there stating someone trained superman to use pressure points or that power girl learned some skills from wild cat. However no DC UNIVERSE heavy hitter is considered to be one of the top fighters in the DCU except for Wonder Woman. In fact out off all the melee users in the DCU heavy hitters or tanks probably rank as the worst hand to hand and weapons fighters in the DC universe And because of this, fights between heavy hitters are always determined by the strongest most durable character. The feats used to determine the strength of the heavy hitters are often lifting pulling and smashing.

Now the issue with Wonder Woman is although she is as strong as a heavy hitter/ She is not a TANK she is a warrior and relies mostly on superior fighting skill and tactics rather than raw power and strength so when it's time to compare FEATS between Superman and Wonder Woman. Superman people post scans of him smashing a planet or scans of him punching DARKSIED to prove he is stronger than wonder woman and will therefore win any battle between the two.

Wonder Woman people post scans of her using her fighting skills which is pretty standard when people are comparing melee based non-heavy hitters batman , Black Canary and Cassandra Cain.

That is usually the point at which the debate between Wonder Woman VS Superman breaks down. Both Wonder Woman and Superman people are posting scans and listing feats that do not make sense to each other.

Conclusion

Superman and Wonder Woman people see different aspects of these battles and both have valid arguments. However there are fundamental differences in the way they compare the two. Comparing Superman FEATS to Wonder Woman feats is like comparing apples to oranges. So until Superman people and Wonder Woman people agree on a way reconcile the different methods superman and wonder woman people use to support their argument. The Jury will be out on who the true winner would be and any further discussion is futile.

Appendix

This is a rough graph of fighting ability vs. raw strength in the DC Universe. The boxes represent the high and low end of a range. The names in the boxes are not in any particular order.

Also, each box represents different comic book canons with regard to fighting ability and strength. For example BOX (A) character abilities can be directly compared since they fall into the same canon BOX (A) However BOX (A) assumes that the other boxes/canon do not exist. The same goes with all the other boxes.

Box D represents the area in which superman canon and superman physics operate. Only raw feats of strength and durability are used to determine the winner in any battle among superheroes and villains in box D mainly because none of the characters are regarded as good fighters relative to the rest of the boxes. Characters in box D are generally regarded as the strongest beings in the DC universe.

Box A,B,C,E generally operate on real world physics. Characters in these boxes depend on strength feats and fighting ability feats for battle thread debates.

This graph should make it easy to visualize the reason why Wonder Woman VS Superman threads break down

#2 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting thread, though, as is common, you overstated Wonder Woman's fighting ability. She's not on Shiva/Dragon/Batman/Cass's/etc level. 

#3 Edited by CATPANEXE (9368 posts) - - Show Bio

The things I miss by not attending Battle forums anymore. Anyways, interesting and really long, should include the source in a link for form, or probably copied into the Wonder Woman Vs Superman thread if you haven't already I think, and Wonder Woman wins, mainly and only because that's what makes me smile when I run it through my mind, the other way around makes me frown. And how if your answer makes you feel good or not is what's the only important thing in the end. P. S.: Are people really using graphs, charts and diagrams in Battle/Vs threads nowadays? That's impressive, or something that is "wow".

#4 Posted by FlagSister (95 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

Interesting thread, though, as is common, you overstated Wonder Woman's fighting ability. She's not on Shiva/Dragon/Batman/Cass's/etc level.

I did not prepare the graph but I do not think the graph is overstating Wonder Womans fighting ability. I think it is merely showing the range at which it falls. Shiva Dragon Batman Cass can all be considerd better based on the graph. Wonder Woman can fall among black Canary and robin.... But even at that level it shows the difference in fighting ability VS BOX D With Superman in it. which is the point of the Blog in my opinion.

#5 Posted by RedOwl_1 (1664 posts) - - Show Bio

@FlagSister said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

Interesting thread, though, as is common, you overstated Wonder Woman's fighting ability. She's not on Shiva/Dragon/Batman/Cass's/etc level.

I did not prepare the graph but I do not think the graph is overstating Wonder Womans fighting ability. I think it is merely showing the range at which it falls. Shiva Dragon Batman Cass can all be considerd better based on the graph. Wonder Woman can fall among black Canary and robin.... But even at that level it shows the difference in fighting ability VS BOX D With Superman in it. which is the point of the Blog in my opinion.

Yeah, WW fighting ability is exaggerate but unless she haves one

#6 Posted by KingofMadCows (345 posts) - - Show Bio

Isn't Wonder Woman one of the best Amazon warriors? And aren't most Amazons hundreds if not thousands of years old? No matter how good Batman or Shiva is, they should not be that much better than warriors who have had centuries of training.

#7 Posted by JoseDRiveraTCR7 (1008 posts) - - Show Bio

Wonder Woman should be the best fighter or else she becomes redundant and looks like a second rate version of other JL members. Superman is power/strength, Flash is speed/momentum, Green Lantern is Artillery, Batman is intelligence, and Wonder Woman should be technical fighting skills.

#8 Edited by rpgr (331 posts) - - Show Bio

@KingofMadCows: The problem is they have static techniques. Part of being a good fighter is mental and knowing what your opponent is going to do before they do. You need to remember, Amazons are isolated and have 0 knowledge of more recent techniques while theirs has been well documented. Being practiced does not mean you're better. In fact, it just makes it harder to reprogram yourself as it's all muscle memory.

For a real world example, try pitting a MMA versus a boxer with the boxer being in his prime and trained very well and a MMA on the rise. The MMA would take it in a second because he knows exactly how the boxer is going to approach but the boxer has no idea how the MMA would approach.

WW is probably the best meta fighter but not the best technical fighter. That still belongs to Karate Kid, then all the usual suspects like Shiva, Batman, etc. because they have more techniques and better styles.

#9 Posted by KingofMadCows (345 posts) - - Show Bio

@rpgr: How do you know that the Amazons have static techniques? They're a warrior culture and they compete with each other all the time. In order to beat each other, they would need to develop new techniques and strategies. Plus they have to fight off all those monsters who try to escape from Hades. There's also the fact that they'll also have knowledge of ancient techniques that were lost to the rest of the world.

#10 Posted by rpgr (331 posts) - - Show Bio

@KingofMadCows:

1) isolated island paradise, no contact with outside world

2) ancient "lost techniques" are the domain of Nanda Parbat not Thamyscria

3) techniques are updated and evolved as they come into contact with others

4) no tech

#11 Posted by KingofMadCows (345 posts) - - Show Bio

@rpgr:

1. The Amazons constantly compete with each other. That's plenty of incentive to develop new techniques.

2. The Amazons have been around for 3,000 years, you really think that everything they knew have been preserved perfectly?

3. A lot of martial arts techniques were developed in isolation. Shaolin monks developed many martial arts styles through meditation and studying animals. Heck, the Shaolin Monastery is in the middle of a mountain. And as mentioned before, the Amazons guard the doorway to Hades, so they do have contact with monsters and people who try to escape.

4. That's not really relevant. In fact, that's more incentive to develop martial arts since better technology makes martial arts less useful.

#12 Posted by MrDirector786 (43493 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually found this pretty interesting.

#13 Posted by TheGoldenOne (38849 posts) - - Show Bio
Interesting.
#14 Posted by Vitality (1762 posts) - - Show Bio

I wonder if anyone steps back after posting something like that and thinks...I spend absolutely way too much time debating battles on a comic book site. Seriously though...I hope whoever felt the need to go into that much detail over a battle thread was paid for it.

#15 Posted by Pokeysteve (8235 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

Interesting thread, though, as is common, you overstated Wonder Woman's fighting ability. She's not on Shiva/Dragon/Batman/Cass's/etc level.

You have a problem with Wonder Woman being among Shiva and Cass but ignored Green Arrow and Huntress in the same box lol?

#16 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@Pokeysteve said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

Interesting thread, though, as is common, you overstated Wonder Woman's fighting ability. She's not on Shiva/Dragon/Batman/Cass's/etc level.

You have a problem with Wonder Woman being among Shiva and Cass but ignored Green Arrow and Huntress in the same box lol?

The thread is about Wonder Woman and Superman. GA and Huntress are extraneous here. 
#17 Posted by Mayo88m (246 posts) - - Show Bio

@Vitality said:

I wonder if anyone steps back after posting something like that and thinks...I spend absolutely way too much time debating battles on a comic book site. Seriously though...I hope whoever felt the need to go into that much detail over a battle thread was paid for it.

This, but I'll be a little nicer and admit I just don't understand the appeal of fictional battles. There really isn't a way to tell who would win because it's all opinion in the end.

@KingofMadCows: I think you're right about them developing new techniques. Not that this is my thing, but this is what civilization does. It advances, and this is especially true for what they focus the most on. So, I agree, just because they've been shut off from the world doesn't mean that they lack for fighting prowess.

#18 Posted by entropy_aegis (15098 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman people stomp them all.

#19 Edited by WDW (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@RedOwl_1 said:

@FlagSister said:

@FadeToBlackBolt said:

Interesting thread, though, as is common, you overstated Wonder Woman's fighting ability. She's not on Shiva/Dragon/Batman/Cass's/etc level.

I did not prepare the graph but I do not think the graph is overstating Wonder Womans fighting ability. I think it is merely showing the range at which it falls. Shiva Dragon Batman Cass can all be considerd better based on the graph. Wonder Woman can fall among black Canary and robin.... But even at that level it shows the difference in fighting ability VS BOX D With Superman in it. which is the point of the Blog in my opinion.

Yeah, WW fighting ability is exaggerate but unless she haves one

Wonder Woman's fighting ability is certainly not exaggerated based on her canon as represented in the graph. Her primary ability as a superhero is her fighting ability/wisdom in battle not her strength. It has been that way for the last 70 years while her other abilities have fluctuated over the years

#20 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

This is why I stay away from the battle forums.

#21 Posted by Buckshot (18914 posts) - - Show Bio

I think as a whole this is a good statement of how things are and how things are conceptualized in comics and the minds of fans. But of course, I like to be contrary so there are some points on which I disagree on my first quick read through. I feel as though Superman's fighting skill is downplayed and Wonder Woman's is played up. I agree that there is a clear gap, but it's presented as if Superman has no skill at all, with statements such as "Superman has little to no fighting skills" being dropped in a section "supported by feats and evidence". One thing that stuck out at me was that it's pointed out that Wonder Woman has beaten Kryptonians. That's true, but Superman has also, and when he does it, he uses it as an opportunity to show that he is indeed skilled not only with his sun-granted powers, but also is martial arts. (I'm not saying that because Superman can beat Kryptonians he beats Wonder Woman, just pointing out that something used to support Wonder Woman is actually a good example for Superman's own skill because I didn't want it to be missed.) I like the distinction between travel speed (where Superman excels) and reflexive speed (where Wonder Woman excels), but I think that again, Superman is being downplayed. He may not apply his speed to combat in order to react reflexively as fast as Wonder Woman, but his operational speed seems to be greater than hers. Operational speed is different from travel speed but also different from reflexes. Wonder Woman's reflexes are trained for combat and she can do things faster than she can think (and faster than Superman can do them) because she's practiced them so much, but that doesn't necessarily make her faster in everything that is not travel. Superman may not react faster automatically, but if he can think faster and can consciously perform actions faster than Wonder Woman's reflexes, then he's faster. I believe he can make conscious movements as fast or faster (operational speed) than her reflexive ones, meaning her reflexive speed advantage is not a significant factor. His speed also allows him to do things like vibrate himself intangible, which would completely negate Wonder Woman's advantages since all her attack depend on physical contact. That brings me to my last thought (for now). The post almost entirely ignores Superman's extra abilities and makes this about a h2h fight.

But the real thing we should all agree on is this: Mr. Majestic beats either of them.

Moderator
#22 Posted by WDW (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@Buckshot said:

I feel as though Superman's fighting skill is downplayed and Wonder Woman's is played up. I agree that there is a clear gap, but it's presented as if Superman has no skill at all, with statements such as "Superman has little to no fighting skills" being dropped in a section "supported by feats and evidence".

Its my oppinion that Superman's fighting ability is not being downplayed with regard to the rest of the DC universe and the comparison on this chart and in Superman Canon. Superman's PRIMARLY ability's are strength, durability, speed and a few other powers. His stories are pretty much all based on this power set. No canon of superman origin even remotely lists fighting skills warrior training etc as a Superman ability. Sure as a superhero we can say Superman is probably an above average fighter compared to normal humans but if we are comparing him to the rest of the DC universe he is among the least skilled fighters. But that's ok because even if superman fought like a 10 year old girl he is still Superman and an extremely formidable opponent

On the other hand Wonder Woman's PRIMARY ability is her fighting ability and warrior training. It's one of the central reasons why we call her Wonder Woman. Even when she is stripped of all her strength superhuman powers she is still good enough to be called a superhero. In Wonder Woman canon she is considered to be one of the best fighters in the world it has been emphasized over and over again for 70 years of comic book publication. People that read Wonder Woman accept this and use this fact of Wonder Woman canon when battling Superman.

Whether superman is understated or Wonder Woman is overstated in fighting skills, the gap between the two is still extremely large. It's impossible to measure accurately but if you take SUPERMANS Powers away and Wonder Woman's powers away and make them fight, Clark Kent would statistically have very close to 0 chance in beating her.

As evidenced in your posts most of the superman's abilities come from his power set not any actual fighting skill he has vibration, speed, movement.

The original thread is not a Superman Vs Wonder Woman Battle thread just a explanation of why the battle between the two always breaks down.

Specific opinions about tactics each would use in a battle are really not relevant here.

#23 Posted by Vance Astro (91191 posts) - - Show Bio

In a fight...Superman>Wonder Woman.It's simple.

Moderator
#24 Posted by Batcrow (232 posts) - - Show Bio

Please do not let this become a Superman vs Wonder Woman thread. WDW is right, no good will ever come from arguing, there are already millions of such threads. We're just discussing why they all break down. Why are you guys coming and saying that Wonder Woman has been overrated and Superman's abilities are downplayed. That is NOT true, okay, and if you disagree, then you're again leading to a hopelessly continuing WW vs SM thread. :)

#25 Posted by Lady_Liberty (8279 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, the OP was a good breakdown of the debate.

@Vance Astro: Take it to the battle forum.

#26 Posted by PhoenixoftheTides (3516 posts) - - Show Bio

Just curious: Have Batman, Green Lantern or any other heavy weight fought and had difficulty with the typical members of Wonder Woman's rogues' gallery?

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#27 Posted by RyuHayabusa (2019 posts) - - Show Bio

@PhoenixoftheTides said:

Just curious: Have Batman, Green Lantern or any other heavy weight fought and had difficulty with the typical members of Wonder Woman's rogues' gallery?

Flash had problem with cheetah.

#28 Edited by PhoenixoftheTides (3516 posts) - - Show Bio

@RyuHayabusa said:

@PhoenixoftheTides said:

Just curious: Have Batman, Green Lantern or any other heavy weight fought and had difficulty with the typical members of Wonder Woman's rogues' gallery?

Flash had problem with cheetah.

Wasn't that after Cheetah had gotten amped by Zoom?

I'm just asking because it may also be the case that her rogue's gallery might not be as threatening, so wouldn't give her an opportunity to shine as some of the other heavyweights.

Online
#29 Edited by WDW (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@PhoenixoftheTides said:

@RyuHayabusa said:

@PhoenixoftheTides said:

Just curious: Have Batman, Green Lantern or any other heavy weight fought and had difficulty with the typical members of Wonder Woman's rogues' gallery?

Flash had problem with cheetah.

Wasn't that after Cheetah had gotten amped by Zoom?

I'm just asking because it may also be the case that her rogue's gallery might not be as threatening, so wouldn't give her an opportunity to shine as some of the other heavyweights.

Diana's rogues gallery is pretty standard. Some of her gallery can Solo the heavy weight members of the justice league and some are pretty weak others are mid-range. little effort was made to develop her gallery

#30 Edited by RyuHayabusa (2019 posts) - - Show Bio

@PhoenixoftheTides said:

@RyuHayabusa said:

@PhoenixoftheTides said:

Just curious: Have Batman, Green Lantern or any other heavy weight fought and had difficulty with the typical members of Wonder Woman's rogues' gallery?

Flash had problem with cheetah.

Wasn't that after Cheetah had gotten amped by Zoom?

I'm just asking because it may also be the case that her rogue's gallery might not be as threatening, so wouldn't give her an opportunity to shine as some of the other heavyweights.

No. Zoom didn't give her speed and Shattered god was powerful enough to threaten OA and Gaurdians.

#31 Posted by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

This is why I stay away from the battle forums.

I have to be pretty bored these days to mess with that train wreck....

#32 Posted by PhoenixoftheTides (3516 posts) - - Show Bio

@RyuHayabusa: Cool. Thanks.

@WDW: Thank you, as well. I was just curious, since none of her rogues stand out as much as the other Big Two's.

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