(This was posted by WDW It was a pretty good post so I figured I would repost it here )
Wonder Woman People AND Superman people (with regard to the battle thread)
Wonder Woman Vs Superman BATTLE is one of the most debated issues in comic book history and apparently one of the hardest to resolve. After about a year of debating this topic I have come to the conclusion that Wonder Woman people and Superman people have a fundamental difference in the way they rate the abilities of the respective characters. This fundamental difference makes it impossible to have any kind of realistic debate.
SUPERMAN PEOPLE (battle situations)
In general, I define Superman people as people who place the most value on strength, durability and speed as factors for a characters win over the other in the absence of other abilities like mind control, intangibility, time shifting to name a few.
Superman has enormous strength feats primarily against the environment. This fact is consistent throughout Superman's history and nobody should argue that any mainstream hero in the DC universe is stronger than Superman. Superman has equally impressive speed feats against the environment and nobody should argue that any mainstream hero in the DC universe can go from point A to B faster than superman accept Speedsters. Superman's durability vs. the environment is second to none in the DC Universe. It can be said in all actuality that Superman is the most powerful mainstream being in the DC universe. This is established DC canon and probably will not change ever.
Fortunately for superman people, strength, durability and speed are things everyone is familiar with. It's easy to spot and measure and is pretty much awe inspiring when it is displayed.
Unfortunately for Superman, in the real world superior strength, durability and speed (from point A to B) rarely result in automatic wins in competition level fights/duels.
WONDER WOMAN PEOPLE (battle Situation)
Wonder Woman people value Skill/Speed, training/Combat Knowledge and weapon usage as the primary factor for a characters success in battle as long as there strength and durability are regarded as good enough to stand-up to stronger beings. They site numerous feats where Wonder Woman has stood up to beings as strong as or stronger than herself and in some cases standing up to multiple beings as strong and durable as her. The key theme in Wonder Woman's origin and background as well as pretty much every other combat/melee based hero literature including comics, is that skill/training combat knowledge and tactics are more important than raw strength, durability and (travel speed). One of the most notable examples of that theme is when Hippolyta defeated Hercules a being clearly MUCH stronger and durable than herself using only her fighting skills.
Fortunately for Wonder Woman people, in the real world Skill/speed training/Combat knowledge are all seen as way more important than raw strength, durability and (Travel speed) when it comes to fighting contests between 2 people of similar strength, durability and speed.
Unfortunately for Wonder Woman she does not exist in the real world. The world she lives in does not obey law of physics. As a comic book it was never designed to and does not need to.
Also Wonder Woman is very unique. She is the only Superhero that has super strength on par with superman and combat/fighting skills ranked as one of the best in the DC universe however that is almost always over looked since she is the only one to have such abilities and to get the full sense of what that entails you need to read her comics.
SUPERMAN PEOPLE THE LOGIC OF THE WIN (supported by feats and evidence)
Superman is stronger faster (travel) and more durable. He usually holds back when he is fighting. He has shattered and moved planets he can survive inside the sun and survive a supernova. Superman has better raw strength feats than Wonder Woman.
WONDER WOMAN PEOPLE THE LOGIC OF THE WIN (supported by feats and evidence)
Superman has little to no fighting skills. Wonder Woman has beaten Krytonions and similar beings before. Wonder Woman has been hit by Superman many times and never been K.Oed Wonder Woman has magic weapons that are show to be able to cut and seriously injure Superman. Wonder Woman also holds back. Wonder Woman had faster reaction time and fight reflexes than superman.
Why Wonder Woman people are wrong and Superman people right
Superman is the most powerful being in the DC universe he is stronger faster and more durable. Even though Superman has punched wonder woman several times over the years and has yet to KO her, FEAT supported fact that superman can shatter planets with his punches means the argument can be made that he was "holding back" when he fought wonder woman. If superman is not holding back or is blood lusted wonder woman cannot survive his planet shattering KO punch if it connects. Superman simply has more strength, durability and travel speed feats than Wonder Woman.
The great thing about this argument is that it is simple and allows supporters to easily increase superman's strength durability and speed when needed. It easily explains away obvious contradictions in superman canon when he is seen being defeated by Wonder Woman and other less powerful beings. "Superman was holding back" it is a simple yet ingenious argument.
The problem with this argument is that is sounds like a copout to Wonder Woman people and it certainly does not lend itself to further discussion since there is no way to measure how much superman was holding back or if he was actually holding back or not.
The argument also completely ignores the fact that virtually all superhero's including Wonder Woman hold back when fighting since it is generally accepted that superhero's do not intend to cause fatal injuries in battle. However Wonder Woman people rarely use the fact to counter superman peoples claim that he holds back.
In addition, the argument that superman wins because he is more powerful i.e.... stronger faster (travel) and more durable does not translate well then you apply that same argument to characters like Batman, Black Canary, Lady Shiva ETC who routinely go up against more powerful, stronger, more durable opponents and beat them using pure skill and knowledge of combat.
Why Superman people are wrong and Wonder Woman people right
Generally in a real world setting if the fight takes place in a generic earth based setting between Superman and Wonder Woman and you accept the feat supported facts that Wonder Woman is a much better fighter has weapons that can kill him is considered to have faster combat reflexes. / Superior combat training, advanced tactical knowledge and is in the same strength, blunt force durability and travel speed* category as superman and is virtually immune to his heat vision** and has similar flight abilities. It's easy to see why Wonder Woman people say she would beat him.
(*Superman is faster** She can block it almost at will and is fairly resist to heat anyway.)
The great thing about this argument is that you establish a bench mark of abilities which can be compared to the DC Universe in a rational way logical way that avoids confusion. Since Batman, Shiva Batgirl, night wing, the karate kid, Black Canary, and countless other hero's operate on the premise that superior combat abilities and skill allow them to take on and defeat stronger and more durable beings, why can't wonder woman operate on the same premise since she is one of DC Universes top fighters.
The problem with this argument is that Superman canon and in-fact all canon involving beings with super strength, like Captain Marvel, Power girl, Black Adam, MMH DARKSIED ETC do not operate on the same basic real world premise in which BATMAN, CANARY and the other top fighters in DC comics operate on which is Superior skill and tactics is enough to win fights.
That concept does not exist when dealing with Superman level beings. There is NO heavy hitter at superman's strength level that has been formally trained in combat. Sure there are footnotes here and there stating someone trained superman to use pressure points or that power girl learned some skills from wild cat. However no DC UNIVERSE heavy hitter is considered to be one of the top fighters in the DCU except for Wonder Woman. In fact out off all the melee users in the DCU heavy hitters or tanks probably rank as the worst hand to hand and weapons fighters in the DC universe And because of this, fights between heavy hitters are always determined by the strongest most durable character. The feats used to determine the strength of the heavy hitters are often lifting pulling and smashing.
Now the issue with Wonder Woman is although she is as strong as a heavy hitter/ She is not a TANK she is a warrior and relies mostly on superior fighting skill and tactics rather than raw power and strength so when it's time to compare FEATS between Superman and Wonder Woman. Superman people post scans of him smashing a planet or scans of him punching DARKSIED to prove he is stronger than wonder woman and will therefore win any battle between the two.
Wonder Woman people post scans of her using her fighting skills which is pretty standard when people are comparing melee based non-heavy hitters batman , Black Canary and Cassandra Cain.
That is usually the point at which the debate between Wonder Woman VS Superman breaks down. Both Wonder Woman and Superman people are posting scans and listing feats that do not make sense to each other.
Superman and Wonder Woman people see different aspects of these battles and both have valid arguments. However there are fundamental differences in the way they compare the two. Comparing Superman FEATS to Wonder Woman feats is like comparing apples to oranges. So until Superman people and Wonder Woman people agree on a way reconcile the different methods superman and wonder woman people use to support their argument. The Jury will be out on who the true winner would be and any further discussion is futile.
This is a rough graph of fighting ability vs. raw strength in the DC Universe. The boxes represent the high and low end of a range. The names in the boxes are not in any particular order.
Also, each box represents different comic book canons with regard to fighting ability and strength. For example BOX (A) character abilities can be directly compared since they fall into the same canon BOX (A) However BOX (A) assumes that the other boxes/canon do not exist. The same goes with all the other boxes.
Box D represents the area in which superman canon and superman physics operate. Only raw feats of strength and durability are used to determine the winner in any battle among superheroes and villains in box D mainly because none of the characters are regarded as good fighters relative to the rest of the boxes. Characters in box D are generally regarded as the strongest beings in the DC universe.
Box A,B,C,E generally operate on real world physics. Characters in these boxes depend on strength feats and fighting ability feats for battle thread debates.
This graph should make it easy to visualize the reason why Wonder Woman VS Superman threads break down