I don't mind her having a father but Zeus was to generic and I would have wanted Hercules

Why is Zeus such a problem for some of you. I fail to see why Hercules would've been a better suited father for Wonder Woman honestly. The clay baby story's got more vavavoom than just being conceived in the conventional way but I'm okay with it

@archizoom: Can't speak for anyone else but why I dislike it is because its to obvious.

I don't have too much of a problem with Wonder Woman having a biological father but I think there are a lot of issues with making Zeus or Hercules her father. The main thing is that her power should come from a feminine source. In my opinion both are pretty boring compared to the old clay origin too. Especially the Zeus one. Using Hercules as the father is also problematic because of the role he played in past versions.

@akintoussaint: It is but so long as it makes Wonder Woman better I think it's a reasonable compromise

Question to everyone how many of this type of thread we have had already?also i think demi-god got the most vote last time

@archizoom: But at the the same time its the least interesting choice for her character.I kind of think it more interesting if Hades was her dad(If he was portrayed differently of course)

I like the Demi Goddess origin ... The whole made of clay thing was clever, but ultimately I think I prefer her being at odds with the pantheon rather than their faithful servant ... She seems more able to stand on her own with this origin. And it feels like she has room to grow as a Goddess rather than as a construct. Being the daughter of the King of the gods gives her a new dimension that I enjoy ... And I'm still holding out hope that we'll get some more info on how much of a secret her true birth was and what else went down to keep it from Hera. Especially as her powers developed far beyond what an Amazon should possess

@jdhaddad1973: One problem she was at odds with the patrons even with her clay origin she was at odds with them. In fact Athena go mad at her. She has been shown at odds with them in Previous versions. So to that it's false. She as never stand down from a fight even with the gods. So yea.With the clay origin and with many other things there was more at work with Marston's for example her Berserk in which in GA was because of her ego. Their ego would grow better if their bracelets broke. So the god mode I guess works like that. The only thing I dislike would be the savage amazons and the sex pirate thing was pushing it. There was no need to kill them. The amazons can have flaws in all but do they need to be savages and kill the men they sleep with. They could have poured in something to make the men fall a sleep.

Both are great for me.

Demigoddess.

Even many of you like the demi goddess or clay that's not to say you hate the clay or demi goddess. I mean with Sensation Comics back and Earth One he will be seeing it again. Not only that but if Pre 52 and New 52 meet up is true well that will be interesting

Preferences aside, I just think that the main and only continuity must stick to the classic (the evolved-through-the-ages classic). It would just be unfair to unmade the kryptonian origin in Superman's mythos and make it the new and only truth about Superman. Alternative versions should exist in their own continuity.

I don't hate Azzarello's work, I just find it extremely uninteresting. What I hate is the fact that replaced the "main" WW. If two or more WW books would exist, the "main" WW should be WW, and Azzarello's WW should be elseworld.

So if we are talking about a single ongoing book or a movie franchise, the only right choice is CLAY.

@hawk80:

Actually Superman changed a lot from his first origin. On his debut he came from planet without a name that gravity was diferent which maked him super strong on Earth. Later it was add power to fly. Then h become power up by sun and then he was last kryptonean

@sayaotonashi: in her previous incarnation she always came back to submitting to the gods, so even when she fought them she was still beholden to them.

Sex pirate thing is a bit extreme. Even though her original concept had some very clear bondage themes which had to be reworked when the Comics Code hit in the 1950s ... WW was, from the beginning, a bit of a veiled fetishist comic. Her creator was supposedly a submissive bondage enthusiast with two wives (functionally at least). So some of these things came through in the early comics and seem to have been morphed for subsequent runs.

@hawk80: made of Clay was not WW original origin either ... That's from her 1987 post-COIE origin story. She was significantly reimagined at this time. Prior to that most incarnations of her claimed her abilities were from her Amazon training.

The Demi God origin isn't nearly as bad as people think it is. Especially when it's written so well by Azzarello. The Clay origin can get quite stale and boring and even creators like Grant Morrison have opted out of using it in their Wonder Woman work. It's definitely not a terrible origin, quite a unique one in fact but at the end of the day, if she's just made from clay, there's nothing more you can do with that from a story perspective.

Thank you I thought I was in the minority on that.

Prefer the demi-goddess origins, just easier to explain.

Because within the WW mythos, having her be fathered by Herc would be like Captain America being the son of the Red Skull.

I will say, part of me does miss the iconic clay, but Brian Azzarello's book has been soooooo good I just don't care. Plus it's really cool being half god half amazon.

Not really because in the 52 Herc doesn't share the same mythos as pre 52. In the 52 he was a hero in history as shown in Aquaman. We don't know if he did those same things which to be frank I had always a problem with. For all we know it could be closer to greek myth where he was given the fleece.

Red Skull will always just be Red Skull.

@dernman: Herc was also remembered by everyone else as a legendary hero post-crisis, the Amazons however knew he was a vile monster.

My problem on the other hand with making him the daddy is that you'd then have made Diana the daughter of the very embodiment Marston created her to oppose. And while I am ok with that for some characters (people like Raven, for instance), but Wonder Woman isn't one of them.

@outside_85: Herc was also remembered by everyone else as a legendary hero post-crisis, the Amazons however knew he was a vile monster.

Difference is in 52 he actually was a hero. Which is why the story was tragic because he was betrayed by the Atlanteans when he was fighting for them.

My problem on the other hand with making him the daddy is that you'd then have made Diana the daughter of the very embodiment Marston created her to oppose. And while I am ok with that for some characters (people like Raven, for instance), but Wonder Woman isn't one of them.

Don't care about Marston I care about both characters. Hercules could have been replaced by some other character who captures the Amazons and makes them slaves. Hell they could have had the first born do that or someone else. Maybe even just not play her mythos out where they needed that scene to get them to that point. Like I said as a fan of Wonder Woman I've always had a problem with him making Hercules into that. For me the new 52 is a chance at fixing that. Hercules is a great grey hero character and shouldn't have been used sacrificed like that. Also just because Hercules didn't rape or enslave the Amazons, just because he's her father doesn't mean she couldn't appose him. He could still have an old world sexist ideals. That would add an interesting dynamic along with the one where you get when he's basically repeating the same mistakes of abandonment (whether intentional or not) that he hated his father for.

@dernman: Hecrules did have a fight with the amazons in the myth.

Part of what Hercules did such as his labors were put in the myth so other part of his myth have to be taking in account.he sacked a city of Tory. So he is not a Hero he is a anti hero. Even without the help of Hera he did more other crimes. He murdered many people . Beside he did enslave others. So by Greek strandards he was a hero but he is a anti hero when u count killing his music tutor for correcting his mistake . He started a war over simple issues and killed people over that simple issue.He enslaved others and would steal from cities. None of that is heroic. Since some of Hercules actions were put in the amazons story u can't deny they would have what Hercules did in mind. Sacked a city. Enslaved others. So yeah.

In the Wonder Woman myth since this was doing his 12 labour this is alt take since he did have to steal the griddle from Hipplotya.

So it's not far fetch to have him as a villian to the amazons.

@sayaotonashi: Hecrules did have a fight with the amazons in the myth.

I wasn't saying they didn't fight. Hippolyta gave Hercules the girdle of her free will when asked why he came there because she was intrigued by him. Hera in disguise lied to the Amazons telling them he was going to kidnap the Queen so they attacked him. Herc seeing he was about to be attacked and believing he was betrayed struck down the queen, ran away knowing he couldn't take the whole army on his own. As much of a tragedy as it was he wasn't a bad guy in the story. Which is a much better then the one dimensional strait up evil bad guy DC had him in the past.

Also in Greek there is no such thing a a real Hero .

Greek myths did have their heroes. It's just by today's standards we don't look towards them as heroes. That is why I called him a grey hero because it's not a black and white issue unlike what DC tried to turn him into.

Hercules was a hero but also because the amazons were woman with powerful Greeks wrote them in a bad light.

I never argued that Amazons where good or bad. I'm just arguing that Herc shouldn't be the villain they've made him out to be and there is no reason he can't be the father. For the record though it's not as simple as saying the only reason the Amazons were in a bad light was because they were powerful woman or because the Greeks wrote them. There could very well have deserved some of it.

Hercules was the Hero and the amazons the villain so all people did news switched it a around. The amazons thought their queen was in trouble. So u can't say I dislike what they did to him when it's clear the Greek gods aren't really heros and the Demi gods were screwed. It's a myth the amazons have been shown to be a bit more than a myth.

Yes I can say that because they took an interesting character that did have heroic qualities to many and turned him into a strait up back and white villain. This isn't a Amazon vs Herc, Male vs female type of thing you're trying to play it off as. You act like I'm blaming or trying to show the Amazons to be the bad guys and Herc totally good. I As I wrote in one of my previous posts I want him to be a gray hero with old time values that would come into conflict with WW. Not so much physical but more verbal because it would be complicated. I'm not wiping his negative qualities clean but they shouldn't wipe away all the good either. Especially when he has a history in other media of being a hero. I don't want either Herc or Amazons to be strait up good or bad. WW should be the only one to be strait up good. You may ask why then if Amazon's are not purely good why did WW end up that way. It's because WW grew up with an idealized version where she never saw around men. That while she teaches mans world a few things she also learns and grows from her experiences in the outside world for the better.

Hercules did fight the amazons

Again not by his choice. Hera tricked the Amazons into attacking him. He should have let them kill him?

And he sacked a city of Tory.

If you mean troy then it wasn't as black and white as many believed. Originally the whole thing was concocted to stop war then Troy broke the agreement. The treaty stated that all would band together against any that breaks the agreement. It was a bigger issue than than two young lover not getting to be together and the big meanies not allowing them to be.

So he is not a Hero he is a anti hero.

Key word is hero. Which still isn't a strait up villain like DC made him out to be. So as we've established neither side was wholly good or evil. Which brings us to the point that, they did a disservice to the character, and there isn't a reason why Herc cannot be WW's father in the 52. Like I've said in another thread he could have had a fling with the Queen before Hera got to the Amazons and everything plays out.

@jdhaddad1973 said:

Here's a clip from the golden age. Tell me again how being created from clay wasn't part of the origin. The only thing Preze did was bring more gods into the mix and give her the soul of an unborn fetus. Both things I wouldn't mind them doing away with in favor of the original.

@muffin_sangria: I think he's confusing origin with power. Golden age got her power from Amazon training. Silver Age introduced the gods granting them.

1) He was a hero before as well, the same hero in fact that did all the things we know he did from the myths. Slaying the Nemean Lion, killing Stymphian Birds and so on. This is that history doesnt mention all the bad things because Herackles was a hero of men, so if he was an utter swine outside of all this, will have been glossed over. In fact, how do you know Heracles isn't actually a monster as well and that was why the Atlantean King sealed him away with the other monsters?

2) Thing is that Marston wanted to make a point with Wonder Woman, and so he took the manliest manly man in history and turned him into a misogynistic dim-wit, though not half as bad as Perez/Potter would later make him.

As for changing/saving him... I am sorry, but you are better off at going to Marvel with that. Heracles has been an enemy of Wonder Woman for around 80 years now, unless Azzarello or some other brave soul wants that to change, he is going to stay that way. Which appears to be what Parker is intending.

3) Like I said, there are characters where I think parents vs kids are quite all right and often the most interesting thing about them. Wonder Woman just isn't the character for that, she is the one that isn't burdened with dead or rotten parents, dead civilizations. Her extended and dwindling family is great, but whats better is that they only just with the New 52 have come into her life rather than hanging as an oppressive cloud over her head.

@outside_85: 1) He was a hero of his times. Grey of ours. It was only pop culture that glossed over it. He wasn't a straight up villain like DC made him out to be.

Edit: Not that his history in pop culture shouldn't be taken into consideration.

2

Thing is that Marston wanted to make a point with Wonder Woman, and so he took the manliest manly man in history and turned him into a misogynistic dim-wit, though not half as bad as Perez/Potter would later make him.

Get over Marston. There was lots of things wrong with what he wanted to do like Woman should rule over man. Turning Hercules into what he did. He isn't the be all end all of the character. He may have had a hand in creating the character but he amount to just one of many writers among the character. Especially after reboots making him less so. It didn't matter that the creator said shatterstar wasn't gay and he has no more say in this. Comic characters and certain concepts should evolve with the times. If you keep forcing what he originally wanted and only what he for the character expect her to fall into irrelevancy or disinterest by many like she's been doing for awhile.

As for changing/saving him... I am sorry, but you are better off at going to Marvel with that. Heracles has been an enemy of Wonder Woman for around 80 years now, unless Azzarello or some other brave soul wants that to change, he is going to stay that way. Which appears to be what Parker is intending.

Im sorry because you need to realize that with the new 52 some things have changed and you're just going to have to deal with that. What you know of Hercules at this point with nothing but what he use to be which amounts to a whole lot of nothing in the 52. There is nothing to say that Hercules was even involved with the Amazons in the new 52 and evidence that he was a hero as shown in Aquaman. If you need him to be what he was maybe it's best you stick to pre 52 stories because now it allows the opportunity for change.

Like I said, there are characters where I think parents vs kids are quite all right and often the most interesting thing about them.Wonder Woman just isn't the character for that, she is the one that isn't burdened with dead or rotten parents, dead civilizations.

You're wrong there are many ways you can vs parents. She's vs her mother on many occasions and on occastions her mother has come off as rotten. As far as dead civilizations she deals with that every time she comes up against greek/roman myth characters. She's perfect type of character to deal with aspects of a past civilizations considering the Amazon's roots, how they live, and their views of the outside world and men.

Her extended and dwindling family is great, but whats better is that they only just with the New 52 have come into her life rather than hanging as an oppressive cloud over her head.

And nothing would change about that if Hercules were her father. She only now found out about her father being Zuess and it doesn't have to change with Hercules. If they did stories it doesn't mean that he would take over. Ares wasn't an oppressive figure and to me Hercules could have had that amount of relationship. Maybe even switch places with him. Less even if you wanted his involvement in her past to not have happened.

There is still no good reason given why he shouldn't be and several interesting reasons he should.

1. No, pop-culture did not gloss Heracles' heroic qualities over. Only Marston under DC's banner did.
2. Seriously... bugger off, you can have Heracles the hero everywhere else and you come here of all places to whine about it not being a universal truth?
3. You are saying this about a character that's remained unaltered in image and function for around 2500 years.
4. Sorry but I don't give a dick about it being a 'new universe', stupid changes are stupid changes.
5. Hippolyta, as far as I know, has never tried to destroy the world Diana lives in out of personal desire.
6. Revolting... absolutely revolting.
7. Except Heracles has nothing to offer but competition and testosterone. Heracles was the heroic archetype for thousands of years, there is no way anyone would just accept him as a teacher/mentor role, especially not in in a Wonder Woman book.

I think there's some disagreement here over what a reboot can and shouldn't do. I agree the a reboot in some way bring a fresh take to the character, but even if the if the past comics aren't considered cannon anymore I think the reboot should still honor the character's history. In Perez's reboot he made a lot of changes too, but I think he also took care to honor the history of Wonder Woman. For a lot of people it seems like Azz's given a complete disregard for Wonder Woman's history and just made up a character he likes more instead.

Well both were kinda true in both versions, but I guess pre-crisis put more focus on the training, and post-crisis put more of a focus on the blessings. In post crisis the blessing were the sole source of her powers but I think she did most of her training before the manifested and as a result the training gave her an edge against everyone else in her power tier. In the golden age the the training was the sole source of her power but I think the blessing became more of a factor as they went towards the golden age. In the golden age the Amazons had psionic abilities like Iron Fist. The way I interpreted it was that Diana was able to use this ability to tap into her divine connection because of the blessings and enhance the abilities to go far beyond what a normal Amazon could do.

Both.

@outside_85:

No, pop-culture did not gloss Heracles' heroic qualities over. Only Marston under DC's banner did.

I didn't say pop culture glossed his heroic qualitlies I said it glossed over his bad ones.

Seriously... bugger off, you can have Heracles the hero everywhere else and you come here of all places to whine about it not being a universal truth?

You kidding me. Now you're getting all immature like that. How about you take your own advice. If anyone is whining it's you. I made one tiny statement then YOU apprached me whining wah wah you don't like it. Guess what tough patootie. I don't care. You don't like it go somewhere else because this is the exact place and time it should be brought up. Seriously get over yourself.

You are saying this about a character that's remained unaltered in image and function for around 2500 years.

Pop culture did a pretty good job in altering his image so that most people think he's straight up hero.

Sorry but I don't give a dick about it being a 'new universe', stupid changes are stupid changes.

Don't really care what you care about. I care about interesting changes that made up for stupid ideas like making him a straight up villain. See I can play that game also.

Hippolyta, as far as I know, has never tried to destroy the world Diana lives in out of personal desire.

No she was just a b!tch for her own reasons. Herc has his own reason. Everybody has their own reason. So what. They were still at odd making your statement bull and again new 52 Herc hasn't been introduced in Wonder Woman. At this point he's done less to Wonder Woman that her mother has.

Revolting... absolutely revolting.

You're opinion and ability and close mindedness. Yes I agree.

Except Heracles has nothing to offer but competition and testosterone. Heracles was the heroic archetype for thousands of years, there is no way anyone would just accept him as a teacher/mentor role, especially not in in a Wonder Woman book.

I've already told you just a couple of things of what he has to offer her. You're making him a one dimensional character when he's not. Not to mention what further writers can add to him in his 1000's of years of lifetime. Especially in a Wonder Woman book. Besides he doesn't have to be strict mentor. I was never thinking that anyway. I was thinking of a complicated relationship where they have a hard time getting along and accept when they first meet story arc only pops up rarely because of it.

I'm still waiting for a good reason as to why it doesn't work and don't amount to anything other than whining.

I can except that it's not your cup of tea. Everyone has their own tastes and opinions but every other reason you gave amounts to utter and complete toss.

@muffin_sangria: I think Azzerello has paid a nice homage to both Pre and Post Crisis history. He's acknowledged the made of clay origin and made it to were she even believed it was the source of her powers until her adulthood. And he's reintroduced concepts Perez and subsequent writers discarded such as removing the bracelets making her more powerful, but hard to keep control and now as god of war some of her mental powers from her earliest years are making a reappearance. I think he has made her a darker character than she was in the past, but that to me is what the New 52 is about. Making the DCU more modern ... WW of Perez era would be a total MarySue today. The new Diana is still evolving, but I like her in Azzerello's book ... She still has some major issues in JL and SM/WW ... Or is at the very least just inconsistent between the titles.

I think you have a great point regarding what a reboot should do vs. What it can do ... N52 needs some work across the board as they went too far with some characters personality changes and did almost nothing to others. SM IMO changed more than WW in many ways. The loss of both Kent's is a fundamental game changer that at first didn't seem like it would really change much, but now seems to have played a role in de-boyscouting Big Blue. He's a bit of a douche now rather than the hero everyone should point to as the most selfless of all. CM is even worse ... It's like they deliberately tried to make him as opposite in character as his pre52 version. At least with Diana you can still see the core personality in Azz's version ... It's a little rougher around the edges than before, but it's still familiar to me. As for JL and other versions I'm not sure they have yet to capture her nobility, they seem to hit more on entitlement and fierceness comes through instead of purpose. I hope these things can be smoothed out without major errors.

Many people like the new 52 version. I don't see Wonder Woman all that different from the road she was already evolving on pre 52 actually. It just took a couple more steps ahead instead of one. The most changes have been to the people around her. Not to mention many fans already saw the subtext in the pre 52 Amazons for the Amazons in the post 52 which is more open about it. I don't see new 52 Herc being her father as going against the honor of WW's character. She doesn't need Herc to be do what he did pre 52 to be what she was or is. Their experiences with man's world is enough. If you absolutely need that moment of them being slaves you can replace Herc with some other Kingdom from the male world. Which IMO would do more to push the point of seeing all men in that light.

I think it's less about what it can, should but the what those cans, shoulds are and the value of some of those things that fit into those cans and shoulds.

@dernman: I don't we how Hercules as her father is really any different or more potentially interesting than Zeus as her father. They fundamentally represent the same thing, divine origin from the lineage of the royal family of Olympus. Zeus seems more natural to me as his role as a god has to do with being the Father Figure. Diana in many ways is a female Hercules, raised without her father, tested by the jealous Hera and spiteful gods, earning ascension into godhood etc ... IMO they made the right call making her the daughter of a King as well as a Queen. Makes her place more significant than if Hercules had been her father.

1) Get over yourself and your fanboy love for Hercules. In fact, take it and head back to the Marvel boards where it belongs.

2) Hey we agree on something. Except it isn't my idea and its been canon for 80 years, so why ruin something just to please you?

3) Her own reasons for acting poorly has always been to keep Diana safe. But I suppose you'd ignore that.

4) "Hey everyone, lets make Wonder Woman have teacher/mentor relationship with her mother's rapist." You don't find that revolting?

5) He has nothing to offer but competition.

6) How about taking a history lesson about Wonder Woman's past? You seem to know either very little or nothing at all about it.

7) Coming from you, I will take that as a mark of excellence.

@outside_85: in all fairness even Hippolyta forgave Hercules and for a time became his lover during the early years of he Perez run I believe ... Forgiveness is part of WW core character.

@jdhaddad1973: In the early story. Hippolyta forgave him for attacking the city the first time around, then he attacked her again. Because I seem to remember Diana seeing him trapped inside Tartarus or under Paradise Island the first time she ventured down there.

@outside_85: issue 14 March 1988 Challenge of the Gods story Arc ... Diana goes back and begs to relieve him of his burden. Zeus decides to free him of having to hold the Island on his shoulders and then Diana takes him to the city where Hercules becomes the first man to step foot on Themyscira ... The Amazons forgive him and he and Hippolyta fall in love until the gods all leave for parts unknown a while later. Can't post scans from my tablet

@outside_85: 1) Get over yourself and your fanboy love for Hercules. In fact, take it and head back to the Marvel boards where it belongs.

Like I said you're the one that needs to get over yourself. You're the only one flipping out over a proposed idea and tiny little statement. You approached me when all I did was say I agreed with someone. If I wanted Marvel's Herc I would have said so. I'm talking about a Herc that can and does fit into 52 WW myth. If you have a problem with that then go to a board that only talks about one version of Wonder Woman. If you don't like it. In all seriousness you can leave because you not liking it matters to nobody but you. There is someone acting like fanboy in this situation and it's certainly not me.

(2) Hey we agree on something. Except it isn't my idea and its been canon for 80 years, so why ruin something just to please you?

and as of now it's not which pleases me just great. Never said they should do it just to please me. I said they should do it because it's interesting and a good idea and it's a improvement. Should they continue with a flaw in a reboot just to please you?

It's not going to be the end of the world or deal breaker for me if they don't do it. I read WW for a long time the way it was but I already see the cracks in you and it's only an idea of someone who isn't even working for DC. Worse even because they already established that Zeus not Herc is the father and you're getting all upset over something that isn't going to happen. Which makes me laugh when you have the gall to call and say I'm the fanboy. I'm laughing here.

3) Her own reasons for acting poorly has always been to keep Diana safe. But I suppose you'd ignore that.

No I didn't. It's just irrelevant as a rebuttal to any point I gave despite you thinking it does. I gave it the value it deserves. Nothing.

4) "Hey everyone, lets make Wonder Woman have teacher/mentor relationship with her mother's rapist." You don't find that revolting?

"Hey everyone lets keep insisting something about a character, mythos that as of yet is something that hasn't happened." "Let's ignore the fact that reboots can make it so he never did that." You don't find that idiotic?

5) He has nothing to offer but competition.

Says certain types of people that are purposely, and decidedly blind because they don't like something even when handfed things

6) How about taking a history lesson about Wonder Woman's past? You seem to know either very little or nothing at all about it.

How about not purposely making false assumptions or having a hissy because you can't make your case or seeing someone make theirs over something you don't like.

7) Coming from you, I will take that as a mark of excellence.

Yeah because realizing people have different tastes, accepting that is a BAD thing and failing to make your case like you have is grrreaaaat.

I'm not against Zeus as her father. It's good. I just prefer Herc. Zeus does make total sense(which I support) but like many people have complained it's kind of been done over an over. Plus as mostly but not all matter of tastes I want the Gods to be different from say Marvel. I want them to be far above Superheroes that I can see reason why they would worship them. Not to mention it's way more of a challenge when she stand up to them. Each god IMO would be like a end boss of each game in a series. WW would fight their soldiers, lieutenant before finally get to them at the end of a long run. As of now it kind of seems silly if she worships one because she's their equal. With Herc being her father she can be as powerful as we know her to be (demi godly) without being godly which should be much greater. The reasons you gave (I agree) are beneficial points but at the same time it's also the opposite for me.

Herc can add interesting dynamics like I mentioned before on how he felt about what his father did to him only for the cycle to repeat it'self. Not to mention I think the mythological incident is very interesting and all the more tragic then it already was if the Queen and Herc had a child before Hera did what she did. It could have interesting stories between all the players. Not to mention what they make of the Herc character after he died and became a god. He had to be doing something all those years. His story is wide open for writers more so than Zeus who can be expected to be just ruling his throne and seducing woman.

@dernman: I guess i look at it from almost the opposite point of view. I like that WW essentially only fights BOSS level villains. To me each time she goes up against one of the gods (whom she doesn't seem to worship now at all) she is fighting a top tier opponent. It illustrates to me how powerful she is that she goes toe to toe with beings that were once worshiped as deities.

Herc as dad seems flat to me. I think part of why I like Zeus has to do with the fact that he's been a total non-factor in her story. His being her father is a burden she overcomes, but it keeps the sense of feminine power WW should have in place. Her true power comes from her upbringing and training. With Zeus as father it remains figurative, I think it would be insulting to WW to have "Dad" try and teach her life lessons when her character is rooted in female empowerment. Don't misunderstand, she shouldn't be a man hater, but IMO giving her an involved "Dad" would fly in the face of her nature.

@jdhaddad1973:

I guess i look at it from almost the opposite point of view.

Nothing wrong with that.

I like that WW essentially only fights BOSS level villains. To me each time she goes up against one of the gods (whom she doesn't seem to worship now at all) she is fighting a top tier opponent. It illustrates to me how powerful she is that she goes toe to toe with beings that were once worshiped as deities.

For me he only being a demi god doesn't lower her power level. She's just as powerful. It just elevates the gods and the threat. I might have misspoke. When I said boss I should have said the gods the bosses worships. The ones she will ultimately have to defeat by using more than power and not everyday equals like all her other villains. Once you take on gods like they're average where do you go up for a threat? For me it lowers the bar in long term available story and the ladder/mountain she need to work up/climb. It's less interesting the shorting the climb. It's why I like having Darkseid someone Superman can't take strait up.

Herc as dad seems flat to me. I think part of why I like Zeus has to do with the fact that he's been a total non-factor in her story. His being her father is a burden she overcomes, but it keeps the sense of feminine power WW should have in place.

Zeus although A good idea feels flat to me. The rest I don't see having to change because Herc is her father any more than if Zeus was.. Remember Herc isn't a story that's been written. It's not set in stone what could happen.

Her true power comes from her upbringing and training.

I totally agree with this. I would also add she gains greater wisdom about certain things through her experiences outside of the island. For me having Herc as the father (amount of involvement at unknown at this point) wouldn't change that.

I think it would be insulting to WW to have "Dad" try and teach her life lessons when her character is rooted in female empowerment.

I don't wholly agree with this statement because that works under the assumption that Hercs teaching would be wholly good or that she would follow them. I see them butting heads on different views of strength, how to handle things and her rejecting his to go her own way. Maybe him even learning something from her in his rare appearances or not.

Don't misunderstand, she shouldn't be a man hater, but IMO giving her an involved "Dad" would fly in the face of her nature.

I think you believe I want him to be more involved than I'm actually suggesting. I definitely don't want him to become a regular cast member.

It just comes down to different tastes and preferences.

@dernman: different strokes for different folks and all that :)

@jdhaddad1973: Personality wise she isn't the one who was the most screwed over. Azz's Wonder Woman kinda has a bland personality, but a lot of writers have had trouble with her over the years so I can't give him too much crap for that. In some of the latest issues I think he's actually started to get a much better handle on her personality actually. I think Soule's been doing a pretty good job too.

The area where Wonder Woman has been the most damaged is in her symbolism. As far as I'm concerned Wonder Woman is supposed to be a symbol for female empowerment and independence. All the major changes to her in the New 52 have pretty much been about taking that away from her. Before she had her powers because she was blessed by the goddesses, but now she just has them because Zeus stuck his dick in her mom. She used to be the greatest warrior because she was trained by the Amazons, but now all the focus has been put on the training Ares gave her.

Even her virtuous qualities have shifted to a male perspective in my opinion. Before she came from an enlightened society that taught her about honestly, compassion, and justice. Now they are savages, and it seems to be implied that Wonder Woman was too till Steve Trevor and the other members of the Justice League taught her to become more then that. I think she should evolve in some ways after living in man's world. Broaden her perspective, and move past some of the other Amazon's hangups like their xenophobic tendencies, but I think her core values should still come from the women who raised her.

All of these changes that go directly against her core concept of female empowerment, and independence have been done in the name of "fixing her" or making her "more relatable". To me that makes those changes incredibly disrespectful, and even offensive. I'd go as far as to call DC's treatment of the charter in the reboot to be misogynistic. I'll probably saying that, but that's the way I see it.

On a side note I've been having a lot of trouble seeing what's so "dark" about this run. In my opinion the Rucka run was much closer to the horror genre then Azz's comic. I'd go as far as to say that Perez's run had darker elements in it then this has too.

EDIT for formatting

@jdhaddad1973: It just seems like when ever the comics bring up her skill as a fighter they seem to mention her training from Ares rather then the training that the Amazons gave her, and of course when her strength is mentioned Zeus gets brought up. I can't help but cringe at both. Maybe if they brought back the psionic training that would be a good way to bring both back to where the focus should be at.

@muffin_sangria: I'd really like to see more on the Amazons in general ... I feel like we saw Diana get like a week of training from Ares but she clearly was already incredibly skilled before he showed up to add to her training. I'd like to see Athena show up as a real player in WW too ... given how little Ares seemed to have been involved with the Amazons in N52 it seems like Athena, as another aspect of War, could play a larger role in why the Amazons are such good warriors.

I like Diana's powers coming from a divine birth v. divine blessing because I feel like she has more free will with this origin. I always felt that if they were in a snit the goddesses could de-power Diana so she was always a little beholden to them. I don't see her strength coming from a male so much as I see it as a natural part of her own divinity, she has made the most of what she was born with and has earned her "upgrades" not simply been anointed. I know we don't know a ton about "god mode" at this point (another area I hope gets explored), but I kind of feel like the flaw has to do with her father being Zeus ... before her ascension she didn't seem to have much control over it... now that she is a full god it seems she has at least more control over this side of herself. I like the idea that the "maleness" of her father interfered with her abilities in someway and now that she's reaching her full potential she is learning to control it. But I have never liked the idea that every part of WW must be 100% female driven ... how can there be an "ideal" feminine without the existence of masculinity? Personally I don't see Male/Female being opposites I see them as two parts to a whole. Diana is more complete to me for possessing male as well as female aspects to her origin.

I am more irritated with the Amazon's seeming lack of culture outside of warrior traits than I am by Diana being Zeus' daughter. Sort of flies in the face of what Paradise Island stands for if it's just a bunch of women learning to fight, one would think that after several thousand years of no interaction with outsiders they would have explored various sciences and/or magics etc ... even "the greatest healer Themyscira ever produced" turned out to be a warrior first and a healer second. How is this "Paradise" if all that's happening is a bunch of women beating on each other?

@jdhaddad1973: That's why I actually prefer the golden age explanation of her powers. The way I say it her powers came from a divine connection which was separate from her gifts, and couldn't be removed anyone then the goddesses could take away the powers of another god. She only lost them in the Diana Prince run because she willingly gave them up. And I still think having her powers come from an feminine source is an important part of the character

If they were going to do a demi-goddess clay cover up story I think making her the daughter of Athena would have been a much better option. Throw in some prophecy that would explain why Athena's never had a child before and who she would want to hide that child now. As a half mortal Diana couldn't live on Olympus. Athena would choose to give her child to the Amazons because they are her most devout followers and the ones who could best teach her to tap into her divine powers. Aphrodite and Hera would be in on the cover up since they are the two gods that she couldn't hide it from. Leave the father a mystery for the time being. Not only would that fit better with Wonder Woman thematically, but I think it would be much more interesting and unique then using Zeus, or Hercules as a parent.