Wonder Woman Comic What if?

#1 Posted by Bezza (3544 posts) - - Show Bio

...Grek Pak left Action Comics and took over the WW comic instead of Azzarello (or Finch)...do you think he could do a good job, based on what he has been doing with Action Comics?

..Obviously a hypothetical Q

#2 Posted by TheAcidSkull (18032 posts) - - Show Bio

I guess.

#3 Edited by dshipp17 (981 posts) - - Show Bio

@bezza said:

...Grek Pak left Action Comics and took over the WW comic instead of Azzarello (or Finch)...do you think he could do a good job, based on what he has been doing with Action Comics?

..Obviously a hypothetical Q

This is a question of taste, obviously. Since my taste is more for Marston, Messner-Loebs, Dejah Thoris, and Torat: Witch of Black Rose, as opposed to Perez and Azzarello, I'm hoping that the Finch(es) will prove to be more on my side and closer to what most posters fear, so, if Greg Pak isn't producing material in this vein, but, rather, in the Perez vein, which I'm going to suspect is the reason he's being brought up, than I'd just hold off on these types of questions and give the Finch(es) a chance to prove themselves; the Finch(es) will do a good job just as Messner-Loebs did a good job, just in the mode of a different taste; although certain fans may have departed, with the dawn of their run, but other fans, on my side, may come back, I'd say just sit on the sidelines and cheer Wonder Woman's success for a while, just as we had to do for the Perez crowd; for us, it gets kind of annoying when the fans of the Perez style say that his stuff was the best of all time, but Messner-Loebs stuff was very low quality and forgettable, where the fans on my side, that's been waiting on the side lines might feel something that's just the opposite; although it's different from your tastes, Marston, Messner-Loebs, Dejah Thoris, and Torat are very successful, but for reasons different from how you like material in the Perez mode which will hopefully be given a rest for a while with Azzarrello's departure; it will still be a matter of creating good, quality material, just in a different vein; I think back to the Power Girl experiment of a few years ago; could have worked if attempts at being more creative would have been put into that experiment.

#4 Edited by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17: You're looking in the wrong place dshipp17. There's a variety of floozies, strippers, femmes fatale to choose from in the comic industry. Wonder Woman doesn't belong in this genre, that's not who she is and she won't be redesigned around your needs. You're well-off already there's so much sexist-rubbish for you out there

#5 Edited by dshipp17 (981 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizoom said:

@dshipp17: You're looking in the wrong place dshipp17. There's a variety of floozies, strippers, femmes fatale to choose from in the comic industry. Wonder Woman doesn't belong in this genre, that's not who she is and she won't be redesigned around your needs. You're well-off already there's so much sexist-rubbish for you out there

At least that's what you're hoping; my desire will be extended to Wonder Woman, also, as soon as the Finch(es) arrive; after their first 5 issues, just discuss from the sidelines the way I'm currently doing; if the Finch(es) decides to go your desired path, than, as i said before, there will be an initial surge, but sales will sink and they'll probably be leaving within 6 months; don't hope that upon them; I'm hoping the uniqueness returns back to the Wonder Woman comics. With the way you and others have been bashing them before the Finch(es) have put out the first image and paragraph, I certainly hope they don't try to appease your bunch.

#6 Edited by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17 said:

At least that's what you're hoping; my desire will be extended to Wonder Woman, also, as soon as the Finch(es) arrive; after their first 5 issues, just discuss from the sidelines the way I'm currently doing; if the Finch(es) decides to go your desired path, than, as i said before, there will be an initial surge, but sales will sink and they'll probably be leaving within 6 months; don't hope that upon them; I'm hoping the uniqueness returns back to the Wonder Woman comics. With the way you and others have been bashing them before the Finch(es) have put out the first image and paragraph, I certainly hope they don't try to appease your bunch.

You'll have it your way art-wise, no doubt, because from what I've seen his portrayal of Women is very one dimensional and congruent with your sexist views on the female species. The sales will fall, because if the art looks anything like Forever Evil's, then unless Meredith pulls an exceptional story, there won't be anything worth paying for.

#7 Posted by Super-Wonder (97 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Pak would do a nice job with Wonder Woman. He's not a sensational writer but if World War Hulk and the current Action Comics run are anything to evaluate his interpretation by, I believe that he would come up with fun adventures and solid characterizations for the Wonder Woman title that would meet with most fans approval.

#8 Edited by dshipp17 (981 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizoom said:

@dshipp17 said:

At least that's what you're hoping; my desire will be extended to Wonder Woman, also, as soon as the Finch(es) arrive; after their first 5 issues, just discuss from the sidelines the way I'm currently doing; if the Finch(es) decides to go your desired path, than, as i said before, there will be an initial surge, but sales will sink and they'll probably be leaving within 6 months; don't hope that upon them; I'm hoping the uniqueness returns back to the Wonder Woman comics. With the way you and others have been bashing them before the Finch(es) have put out the first image and paragraph, I certainly hope they don't try to appease your bunch.

You'll have it your way art-wise, no doubt, because from what I've seen his portrayal of Women is very one dimensional and congruent with your sexist views on the female species. The sales will fall, because if the art looks anything like Forever Evil's, then unless Meredith pulls an exceptional story, there won't be anything worth paying for.

Again, exceptional writer according to your tastes, not mine; clearly, Azzarrello's sales have fallen with his trying to meet your expectations; time to try something different now, don't you think? You can't seriously be expecting different results with the same ideas. And quit attaching negative adjectives to my view of art because it differs from yours; if they're smart, the Finch(es) will be doing it according to my tastes now; it's time to move away from your definition of exception; if the Finch(es) move my way, than, as I said, he'll gain my type of fan base; as I said, your fan base can sit on the sidelines for a while. If the Finch(es) than try to produce exceptional stories than my fan base will treat him accordingly with loyalty, even if we have to put up with frumpy depictions here and there, as long as it returns to our taste and stays that way for the most part.

#9 Posted by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17: I don't impute Wonder Woman's failure to the character's design, I pin it on the execution which is off puttingly inconsistent, she's very unreliable. It's discouragingly difficult to develop an emotional attachment to a Superhero whose personality changes more than I change my underwear. No one knows exactly who and what she's supposed to be, and how powerful. Besides Superman (DC product A) cannibalizes Wonder Woman (DC product B). No one's gonna buy an iPod shuffle if Apple's selling iPod nanos at the same price if you know what I mean.

#10 Posted by dmessmer (365 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17: Okay, I'll take a crack at it without assigning negative adjectives. I doubt there will be a lasting market for a Wonder Woman comic that caters to foot-fetishists who want Wonder Woman to fall in love with Dr. Psycho. I'm pretty confident in that statement.

Therefore, there won't be much interest in a comic that caters to your tastes, and if that is what the Finches do then the book will probably get a surge, as almost all books do when they undergo a major change, then founder. I'm hoping that isn't the direction they take.

#11 Edited by dshipp17 (981 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer said:

@dshipp17: Okay, I'll take a crack at it without assigning negative adjectives. I doubt there will be a lasting market for a Wonder Woman comic that caters to foot-fetishists who want Wonder Woman to fall in love with Dr. Psycho. I'm pretty confident in that statement.

Therefore, there won't be much interest in a comic that caters to your tastes, and if that is what the Finches do then the book will probably get a surge, as almost all books do when they undergo a major change, then founder. I'm hoping that isn't the direction they take.

Well, lets see if the Finch(es) will have the courage enough to try it; in my estimate, it will work explosively, but, after 3 issues or so, they can always change the theme; that's characteristic of a good writer; apparently, that's what Messner-Loebs did, to go from a 25k issue into a 58k the issue before his departure; however, by that time, the fan base with your taste apparently will have departed as soon as the Finch(es) take the reins of the book, so, the correct fan base will be there or looming; you apparently don't realize that the majority of men have a foot fetish; it's just very few men are vocal or expressive of it, just like any other thing (e.g. pornography is actually a billion dollar industry and it might surprise you that pornographic media has actually been dwarfing Hollywood media for quite some time) or adult men, over the age of 25, being into comics in general, for that matter; but say the numbers do correct a bit lower than Wonder Woman is accustomed to, but remains a constant and averages around 37k for a year and a half, according to my specifications, like say Dejah Thoris or Tarot Witch has been doing for 14 years now; Wonder Woman made major bumps during crossovers; do you think DC would be smart in sticking with my suggestion for Wonder Woman, or going back to this time, where she got a surge, but was back to 25k, and falling, after an average of 8 months? Wouldn't DC be wise in avoiding the stress? Certainly, a writer and perhaps artist would enjoy such job security. However, if DC takes my advise, I think Wonder Woman could average about 55k for at least a year and a half (e.g. after a surge similar to what occurred at the start of Azzarrello's run; actually, Azzarrello did stabilize Wonder Woman above the 40k mark for more than a year, and that's something that I've expressed my admiration for him as a Wonder Woman writer, all while biting my tongue, where his theme didn't exactly align with my tastes). As I said, the fans with your taste will have voiced their opinion at the start of the Finch(es) run, but, as we did, just wait on the sidelines and cheer for Wonder Woman's lasting success; right now, we're watching what Wonder Woman has done according to your bases tastes and it is giving signals that a change is wise.

#12 Posted by dmessmer (365 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17: If you read my comments on Azzarello you'll see that I'm in favor of him leaving - his approach was interesting but it's run its course. I'm fine with something new. But turning a character who stands as a symbol for female empowerment into a fetish object for guys like you to get off to isn't a good direction. It will alienate female readership (46% of comics readers these days by some estimations), alienate men who see women as equals rather than sex objects (not sure what that percentage is, but it exists), and would overall be a very short-sited move.

I know how much you like the Messner-Loebs run, but check these forums or various poles: you are in the vast minority - most people hate that run and the surge at the end probably had more to do with it being a historic issue number (issue 100) rather than a sudden surge in popularity for the writer. It certainly isn't a run that continues to receive interest from a lot of readers, whereas Perez, Rucka, and Simone remain the gold standard for most fans of the character.

There is already plenty of sexualized art in comics, and if you want to see Wonder Woman in any number of fetish situations you can just do a search on Deviant Art and go nuts. As a story-telling strategy, though, that won't lead to any kind of long-term success for DC or for Wonder Woman's readership.

#13 Edited by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer: Even if Messner-Loebs had done a successful run which he didn't, it's been almost 20 years and a large portion of DC's customer base today wasn't even born yet, we have different needs. @dshipp17 however peddles the notion that Messner-Loebs fans which he deemed "loyal" abandoned the ship upon the realization that sluttish Wonder Woman was going to be no more. What reason does a man have to read female-led comic books if she ain't wearing glitzy lingerie and 10 inch platform shoes. If this isn't sexism, I don't know what is.

#14 Edited by dshipp17 (981 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer said:

@dshipp17: If you read my comments on Azzarello you'll see that I'm in favor of him leaving - his approach was interesting but it's run its course. I'm fine with something new. But turning a character who stands as a symbol for female empowerment into a fetish object for guys like you to get off to isn't a good direction. It will alienate female readership (46% of comics readers these days by some estimations), alienate men who see women as equals rather than sex objects (not sure what that percentage is, but it exists), and would overall be a very short-sited move.

I know how much you like the Messner-Loebs run, but check these forums or various poles: you are in the vast minority - most people hate that run and the surge at the end probably had more to do with it being a historic issue number (issue 100) rather than a sudden surge in popularity for the writer. It certainly isn't a run that continues to receive interest from a lot of readers, whereas Perez, Rucka, and Simone remain the gold standard for most fans of the character.

There is already plenty of sexualized art in comics, and if you want to see Wonder Woman in any number of fetish situations you can just do a search on Deviant Art and go nuts. As a story-telling strategy, though, that won't lead to any kind of long-term success for DC or for Wonder Woman's readership.

When referring to your group's like of Azzarrello's run, I'm talking about an overall theme to avoid what you call smut, which he shares with Perez, but does not share with Marston, Messner-Loebs, Dejah Thoris, and Tarot Witch; although you agree with this overall theme of the Azzarello run, I've only seen you express dislike over some of the nuances of his run; you'll see me do that too, if the male antagonist and/or interest is always pretty like Steve Trevor, Batman, Nemesis, and Superman, etc, but typically avoids the likes of Dr. Psycho, Ferdinand, Hephaestus, etc; if that happened, trust me, I'd turn on the run like a dime; one thing I can't stand about Dejah Thoris is John Carter being her husband, but, I tolerate it because of her association with Tars Tarkas and similar characters, as they make up for that disdain that I have against that a bit. And, if my taste for female lead comics makes me and others of my fan base think of women as something other than equals, why is it that you and your fan base always bring up adjectives like floozy, stripper, slut, whore, bimbo, etc, to describe a female character whereas at one poster of my fan base (e.g. I wont even include myself, because I know I'm an exception), from what I can gauge, has never used those terms to express a female lead, simply because the book has a theme that's not to our taste? And your guess about it being a historic 100th issue is wrong, because the 58k issue was issue 99; I'm sure the 100th issue was much larger. Again, we're talking about the official comic not fan art, so going to Deviant Art would not count; the art at deviant art would not affect official Wonder Woman sales.

And again, Dejah Thoris has a long term fan base, while putting out material according to my taste, actually having 4 different titles to her name, and Tarot Witch has been successful for 14 years and counting now; clearly, the fan base for my side is a lot more sustainable as well as loyal. Has Wonder Woman ever had 4 different titles to her name? If DC had kept with Marston's vision or corrected for that lost mistake, in keeping with Messner-Loebs (e.g., Wonder Woman briefly had 2 themes when Messner-Loebs made Artemis: Requiem), Wonder Woman might be able to say the same thing now.

#15 Edited by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17: wrong dshipp17, I know i'm meddling here but let me tell you this. It's not your predilection for prostitutes and strippers that make you seem sexist, what you like is none of my business. It's how you obviously believe female-led comic books are preordained to fail unless women are objectified beyond the limits of decency.

#16 Edited by dshipp17 (981 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizoom said:

@dshipp17: wrong dshipp17, I know i'm meddling here now but let me tell you this. It's not your predilection for prostitutes and strippers that make you seem sexist, what you like is none of my business. It's how you obviously believe female-led comic books are preordained to fail unless women are objectified beyond the limits of decency.

Well, if you believe that I have some predilection for prostitutes and strippers, you'd be woefully misjudging me; the closest I've came to something like that was paying an internet model to take pictures of her in a private booth at a con gathering; we later became friends of sorts and I came to cons featuring her every now and than, when I could afford it; she choice to treat me by dressing skimpy; she's now a female bodybuilder; I just simply respect prostitutes and strippers and I don't treat them as if they're deserving of my hate and contempt, and I don't believe in making them feel ashamed for what they do, because they help men who otherwise would not experience any of the joy they provide from the opposite sex otherwise; they don't set standards for the men they help.

#17 Posted by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17 said:

Well, if you believe that I have some predilection for prostitutes and strippers, you'd be woefully misjudging me; the closest I've came to something like that was paying an internet model to take pictures of her in a private booth at a con gathering; we later became friends of sorts and I came to cons featuring her every now and than, when I could afford it; she choice to treat me by dressing skimpy; she's now a female bodybuilder; I just simply respect prostitutes and strippers and I don't treat them as if they're deserving of my hate and contempt, and I don't believe in making them feel ashamed for what they do, because they help men who otherwise would not experience any of the joy they provide from the opposite sex otherwise; they don't set standards for the men they help.

I have no beef with prostitutes either but I can't say I admire them for what they do. Women are useful beyond what they can do for men. You impute all of Wonder Woman's failures to the fact that she's not a prostitute and tout the benefits of introducing her to this line of work like it's the only option that can make Wonder Woman an interesting character again.

#18 Posted by dmessmer (365 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizoom: Well said in both of your responses to @dshipp17, but be forewarned, arguing with him is like arguing with a brick wall (a very sexist brick wall). You should hear his rational for why Wonder Woman should be with Dr. Psycho. It basically amounts to everything you've pointed to - HE would benefit tremendously from the pairing, therefore it's her responsibility to do it.

#19 Edited by ArturoCalaKayVee (11390 posts) - - Show Bio

Greg Pak OFF Action Comics? No thank you.

Greg Pak ON Wonder Woman? Sure, why not?

David Finch on Wonder Woman? I am dropping the title.

#20 Posted by dagmar_merrill (8180 posts) - - Show Bio

@arturocalakayvee: David Finch is drawing and his wife is writing WW. Last I heard. Unless you already knew this.. then disregard this..

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#21 Edited by dshipp17 (981 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer said:

@archizoom: Well said in both of your responses to @dshipp17, but be forewarned, arguing with him is like arguing with a brick wall (a very sexist brick wall). You should hear his rational for why Wonder Woman should be with Dr. Psycho. It basically amounts to everything you've pointed to - HE would benefit tremendously from the pairing, therefore it's her responsibility to do it.

looking at it from the perspective of those who have different tastes, arguing with you two is like arguing with a brick wall; as has been repeatedly stated, your taste in Wonder Woman has failed so it's time for a change; although he phrases it as nothing being more than what she can offer to men, that's his comment not mines; but, this is a male audience so the comic should cater to a male audience; take this piece of advice, again; I'm not arguing what programming Lifetime should be offering to its female audience; so, do us all a favor and stop trying to shame us for catering to a mostly male audience; it's nothing wrong here; you and your partner poster are just a couple of vocal exceptions; DC has wasted around 18 years on you since Messner-Loebs left, preferring to undergo the stress of erratic sales to attract your crowd; hopefully, with the arrival of the Finch(es) DC will start catering to us, the proper comic book audience again; Dejah Thoris, Tarot Rose, and Messner-Loebs were successful; stay, and cheer the success, but take your crusade over to Lifetime or go and enjoy that, since it appears to be your fetish; as a matter of fact, Marvel has the new Ms Marvel that you might like; maybe you might want to consider replacing Wonder Woman with that frump when September rolls around; understanding Marvel's maneuvering, I'm not there crusading about how that character needs to undress some; you might have to bare with the religious overtures, as I've done with Wonder Woman, with a religion that would be very much at odds with what God's Word commands me against, but that comic might be more to your liking, but, it's nothing harmful to women that comes from my preferred tastes in comics. With that said, of course Dr. Psycho should be a major player in the Wonder Woman comics, upon the Finch(es) arrival, at least to the extend that Azzarrello introduce the Olympians over the past 3 years; it would be a refreshing and proper change.

#22 Posted by dmessmer (365 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17: Um, women read comics, too. And it's a growing market. If you think they should only be for men and ignore 50% of the population (and the money they might spend), then you are not only obviously sexist, you're also an idiot.

Otherwise, I'm not going to respond because you basically just proved all of my points for me. Thank you.

#23 Edited by dshipp17 (981 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer said:

@dshipp17: Um, women read comics, too. And it's a growing market. If you think they should only be for men and ignore 50% of the population (and the money they might spend), then you are not only obviously sexist, you're also an idiot.

Otherwise, I'm not going to respond because you basically just proved all of my points for me. Thank you.

Your logic is simplistic rubbish; what, you think Dejah Thoris, Tarot Witch, and WWE diva's division have no women consumers? Some women just understand when they're consuming material that's designed for a male audience and adapt. Those that can't, obviously aren't consuming the material that I mentioned, nor should a company set out to make changes to attract those women who can't understand when something is designed for a male audience. All women aren't defined by what you think they like and believe about something that's depicting women. And, again, stop calling me sexiest, as I'm far from it, as well as the other men who consume the material that I like; I just see things differently from you. Seriously, if you feel so strongly, just consider going to a comic book that fits within your mold of what you figure a female lead should be, such as the new Ms Marvel; if they deviate by trying to reduce the clothing she wears, than your complaints would be justified and they would gain more traction quicker; no one is a sexist because they don't want to see a female character who has historically been portrayed as sexy (or, who was created to be portrayed as sexy) to suddenly be turned frumpy, or because we prefer to not see the WWE divas made into frumpy characters; your crusade to change a historically sexy character into a frumpy character, and hoping that the comic book community should adapt to that stance, lest the material not be considered excellent, is just preposterous; when DC deviates so far, they pay a price in sales and require a new writer and new approach, as they should; DC has rightfully struggled to achieve such an endeavor, since Messner-Loebs and Marston's departure, during the pre-crisis years; hopefully, with the arrival of the Finch(es), DC will finally see the light; Wonder Woman has struggle relative to her trinity peers for no other reason than this crusade to turn Wonder Woman frumpy; it's never been a matter associated with men not wanting to give a female lead a chance to succeed; if men are not generally attracted to frumpy women, that does not make them sexist, nor does not finding what women would find as attractive make them sexist, as men are biologically different from women; can't you start learning/understanding that concept?

#24 Posted by Outside_85 (8763 posts) - - Show Bio

Once Azzarello is finished? I wouldn't mind, there's quite a lot of much worse choices for the gig.

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#25 Posted by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer said:

@dshipp17: Um, women read comics, too. And it's a growing market. If you think they should only be for men and ignore 50% of the population (and the money they might spend), then you are not only obviously sexist, you're also an idiot.

Otherwise, I'm not going to respond because you basically just proved all of my points for me. Thank you.

Wonder Woman is male property now you see and they don't care about anything but her tits.

#26 Posted by Super-Wonder (97 posts) - - Show Bio

I bet Peter David would do a nice job on a Wonder Woman title.

#27 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (11390 posts) - - Show Bio

@arturocalakayvee: David Finch is drawing and his wife is writing WW. Last I heard. Unless you already knew this.. then disregard this..

I knew he was drawing, didn't know his wife was writing. I don't know if I'm familiar with her work and am just drawing a blank but I know Finch's work and think it's one of the worst in the business. His art alone is enough for me to drop a book.

#28 Posted by Super-Wonder (97 posts) - - Show Bio

I know Finch's work and think it's one of the worst in the business. His art alone is enough for me to drop a book.

Interesting, why do you think that his work is the worst? You don't like his women either, do you feel he objectifies women in his work, or is it just not your taste?

#29 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (11390 posts) - - Show Bio

@arturocalakayvee said:

I know Finch's work and think it's one of the worst in the business. His art alone is enough for me to drop a book.

Interesting, why do you think that his work is the worst? You don't like his women either, do you feel he objectifies women in his work, or is it just not your taste?

It's not my taste. I'd like to think I have a wide variety of taste in comic book art but when I look at Finch's work it's just bad to me, I just think to myself that he doesn't know how to draw. Not that I'm a good artist by any means.

#30 Edited by dshipp17 (981 posts) - - Show Bio

@arturocalakayvee said:

@super-wonder said:

@arturocalakayvee said:

I know Finch's work and think it's one of the worst in the business. His art alone is enough for me to drop a book.

Interesting, why do you think that his work is the worst? You don't like his women either, do you feel he objectifies women in his work, or is it just not your taste?

It's not my taste. I'd like to think I have a wide variety of taste in comic book art but when I look at Finch's work it's just bad to me, I just think to myself that he doesn't know how to draw. Not that I'm a good artist by any means.

Now that's a very good clarification; I thought you were just following in a line of people who were just hating on Finch, assuming his theme will not jive with their idea of the direction they'd like to see Wonder Woman taken; I'm hoping that the Finch(es) will be taking Wonder Woman into a more Marston and Dejah Thoris direction, especially in terms of the matching art.

#31 Posted by Super-Wonder (97 posts) - - Show Bio

It's not my taste. I'd like to think I have a wide variety of taste in comic book art but when I look at Finch's work it's just bad to me, I just think to myself that he doesn't know how to draw. Not that I'm a good artist by any means.

You know, it's funny that you say that doesn't know how to draw, he has a Gnomon tutorial video and he mentions a couple of times that he doesn't know what he's doing.

While I don't think that he's bringing his A-Game to the Forever Evil arc, I do think he's a brilliant illustrator.

@dshipp17 said:

Now that's a very good clarification; I thought you were just following in a line of people who were just hating on Finch, assuming his theme will not jive with their idea of the direction they'd like to see Wonder Woman taken; I'm hoping that the Finch(es) will be taking Wonder Woman into a more Marston and Dejah Thoris direction, especially in terms of the matching art.

I don't have any expectations about the Finch Family run on the title but I'll be there when it comes out.

#32 Posted by dmessmer (365 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17: Before you put more words in my mouth, let me be clear that I have no problem with female characters being sexy. I have a problem with sexy being defined in an extremely narrow way. I don't want Wonder Woman to be frumpy, nor do I think she's ever been frumpy. The fact that you consider any woman who isn't drawn like a 90s porn star to be frumpy is why you are sexist.

Women make up 50% of the population, so if DC can tap that audience they would see an increase in sales. Sure, some women will read them anyway, but a lot more would likely read them if they didn't cater to a male audience. A lot of men would also prefer to read a Wonder Woman comic that doesn't turn her into your kind of fetish object. The fact that you assume that D.C. should only cater to men who want to ogle giant boobs and bare feet (and leave it up to women to be okay with that) is another reason that you are sexist.

#33 Edited by dshipp17 (981 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer said:

@dshipp17: Before you put more words in my mouth, let me be clear that I have no problem with female characters being sexy. I have a problem with sexy being defined in an extremely narrow way. I don't want Wonder Woman to be frumpy, nor do I think she's ever been frumpy. The fact that you consider any woman who isn't drawn like a 90s porn star to be frumpy is why you are sexist.

Women make up 50% of the population, so if DC can tap that audience they would see an increase in sales. Sure, some women will read them anyway, but a lot more would likely read them if they didn't cater to a male audience. A lot of men would also prefer to read a Wonder Woman comic that doesn't turn her into your kind of fetish object. The fact that you assume that D.C. should only cater to men who want to ogle giant boobs and bare feet (and leave it up to women to be okay with that) is another reason that you are sexist.

Can you not see how out of step your logic is, trying to classify those who disagree with you as sexist? That's like saying Lifetime, and similar forms/flavors of entertainment, should suspend their agenda to try to bring in a more male audience, because they're 50% of the population; it's not suppose to work that way; that makes you sexist, though an unusual type sexist, in being a man, thinking he's some impressive crusader for women, going by the barometer that you're always trying to set; comics are for men and it's nothing wrong with it being for men; what I propose is to go the opposite and intended way, to attract more men in a market that is and should always be focused towards bringing in more men, allowing any interested women to come in and adapt, if so they desire; that way, you bring back in those Messner-Loebs fans and attract even more readers of a similar persuasion; that's the correct business approach; I watch Lifetime sometimes, just to get an understanding of what women like; I actually like some of the programming; however, what I'd be suggesting, if I felt the need to crusade in what's intended to be a women's market, is to stop only portraying men in the villainous role of stalker, abuser, creepy, etc sense, while portraying women as always being the innocent, angel, victim, when life just simply isn't that way; women are usually, if not always, as much apart of the negative situation as men, even if it only falls down to their choices; notice how those crime dramas are always showing men as being the perpetrator of some type of killing, with a female victim? I just don't think that's very educational and does more damage than good. I'm considering making my own documentary series of programs that I believe would be more accurate of what real life has to offer in these situations (e.g. say one episode where we have a wife that has taunted her husband for a number of years with things she knows are likely to incite his passions and anger; one day, he's had enough and proceeds to beat her; he's than on trial for assault, but his lawyer is arguing that he should be subject to mitigation; this man has no prior criminal history and was an excellent student in school; the wife was a dropout who had an extensive juvenile record; sure, the key issue would be he should have just gotten a separation or divorce; in these situations, you can make some similar observation about the woman; would Lifetime or Spike TV pick up my documentary?).

From the prism that you keep drawing, it would be easy to call anyone sexist, but it's not true; you're just sexist in a weirder sort of way. Sure, it would be sensible to make some comics focused on women, but it's not a good idea to do such an approach with a comic that's focused towards men, even if the lead is a female, such as Wonder Woman; I guess we men can just calk it up as our luck to have it be Wonder Woman.

#34 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (11390 posts) - - Show Bio

@arturocalakayvee said:

It's not my taste. I'd like to think I have a wide variety of taste in comic book art but when I look at Finch's work it's just bad to me, I just think to myself that he doesn't know how to draw. Not that I'm a good artist by any means.

You know, it's funny that you say that doesn't know how to draw, he has a Gnomon tutorial video and he mentions a couple of times that he doesn't know what he's doing.

While I don't think that he's bringing his A-Game to the Forever Evil arc, I do think he's a brilliant illustrator.

I will admit to you though that I didn't always dislike David Finch. Years ago I was a fan of his but I think he has lost his touch.

#35 Edited by Super-Wonder (97 posts) - - Show Bio

@arturocalakayvee said:

@super-wonder said:

@arturocalakayvee said:

It's not my taste. I'd like to think I have a wide variety of taste in comic book art but when I look at Finch's work it's just bad to me, I just think to myself that he doesn't know how to draw. Not that I'm a good artist by any means.

You know, it's funny that you say that doesn't know how to draw, he has a Gnomon tutorial video and he mentions a couple of times that he doesn't know what he's doing.

While I don't think that he's bringing his A-Game to the Forever Evil arc, I do think he's a brilliant illustrator.

I will admit to you though that I didn't always dislike David Finch. Years ago I was a fan of his but I think he has lost his touch.

Well here's to hoping that he can win you back and sway a couple of his detractors in the process, someday. :) I'm hoping that he'll have a cleaner style on his next project . . . .Whatever it may be . . .lol

Back on topic, another writer that I think would make for an interesting Wonder Woman run would be Chris Claremont. There's a depth to his stories that I feel would be well suited for Wonder Woman.

#36 Posted by dmessmer (365 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17: I'm calling you sexist because you think that any woman who doesn't fit your narrow model of unrealistic beauty is, to use your own words, "frumpy."

You keep pointing to Lifetime, but that's a terrible analogy. Lifetime is a niche channel whose explicit purpose is to cater to women. Comparing that to the most iconic female character in comics is absurd. What you're arguing would be the equivalent of saying that CBS should only be for one gender.

One of Marston's original goals in creating Wonder Woman was to create a comic that young girls could read, so appealing to women has been present from the start. So has sexiness (he was pretty specific on that point as well), but there are a lot of ways to be sexy that aren't demeaning. To reduce the most powerful and well-known female superhero to whether or not she satisfies your foot fetish is demeaning and sexist.

#37 Edited by dshipp17 (981 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer said:

@dshipp17: I'm calling you sexist because you think that any woman who doesn't fit your narrow model of unrealistic beauty is, to use your own words, "frumpy."

You keep pointing to Lifetime, but that's a terrible analogy. Lifetime is a niche channel whose explicit purpose is to cater to women. Comparing that to the most iconic female character in comics is absurd. What you're arguing would be the equivalent of saying that CBS should only be for one gender.

One of Marston's original goals in creating Wonder Woman was to create a comic that young girls could read, so appealing to women has been present from the start. So has sexiness (he was pretty specific on that point as well), but there are a lot of ways to be sexy that aren't demeaning. To reduce the most powerful and well-known female superhero to whether or not she satisfies your foot fetish is demeaning and sexist.

It's not just my model of sexy and the frumpy comment was addressed to you individually, based on the comments you made concerning various Wonder Woman issues and Wonder Woman in general; the observation was in response to your tendency to try creating a picture that every male that is not confirming to your taste for Wonder Woman as being sexist; it's like it's either your view or it's got to be sexist or misogynistic; either both men and women should find a feature of the female attractive, or the man is objectifying the female character; it's really starting to make me question whether you know there's a difference between male and female biology; since I have not fully expressed my model of beauty, it's pretty presumptuous of you to make your comment and than refer to me as sexist; Lifetime is a very good comparison, because it's about an iconic female character who's in the comic book arena catered to men; a comparison to CBS is terrible logic; comics are not general purpose like CBS but male focused; otherwise, Dejah Thoris or Tarot Rose would not be enjoying as nearly as much success; CBS being to comics would be living in denial and saying that pornography is general purpose; if someone were investigating pornography, only the green or absurd would be surprised that most of the subscribers would be found to be male; you may not like that but that's the way it is; Marston actually said that he was creating a woman in a place that was saturated with male characters; saying that Wonder Woman was created to be sexy is far more accurate with what Marston was trying to accomplish. again, stop looking silly by creating your barometer and arbitrarily defining sexist to bail yourself out from your sunken ship; again, you're the sexist one.

#38 Posted by dmessmer (365 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17: I apologize for engaging in conversation with you again. I'd forgotten how pointless it is. As is always the case, your ramblings have gone from illogical to incoherent and, as usual, you make up information to suit your purposes. Enjoy your delusions.

#39 Edited by dshipp17 (981 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer said:

@dshipp17: I apologize for engaging in conversation with you again. I'd forgotten how pointless it is. As is always the case, your ramblings have gone from illogical to incoherent and, as usual, you make up information to suit your purposes. Enjoy your delusions.

No need to apologize for displaying your childish assertions again; just apologized for not being man enough to take your whippings; I don't need to sit back and let you forget that, although you're entitled to your opinions, you're not entitled to your facts. Again, you just simply lost a debate; you made an assertion that was not back by any facts, presented, than got your assertion dismantled; that makes nothing delusional, incoherent, or a rambling; it simply points out that you want your perspective of reality to be taken seriously when your perspective is childish and misinformed. You simply come across as some child who needs to learn how to become a man; if I knew were you were, I'd take the time to paste you into a man; that's what you'd get after your third strike with calling me names and insulting my intelligence. Apparently, you don't even know the definitions of delusional, rambling, and incoherent, and you certainly do not understand how the legal and scientific processes are structured; I use the principles of proof for the legal and scientific process to destroy you in a debate every time; but, basically, you put out something you want to be true, not knowing what you're talking about, get corrected, than resort to name calling.

#40 Posted by Outside_85 (8763 posts) - - Show Bio

Back on topic, another writer that I think would make for an interesting Wonder Woman run would be Chris Claremont. There's a depth to his stories that I feel would be well suited for Wonder Woman.

While I dont visit the X-Men boards very often, I have the distinct impression that quite a lot of people think Chris Claremonts writing today is a little too much like his writing of yesteryear.

Kinda like Lobdell is getting flack (or more of it) due to the way he writes TT with an unknown omniscient narrator, which is a practice comics has generally moved away from.

Online
#41 Edited by dmessmer (365 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17: I find it ironic that you question my manhood then make physical threats, all while claiming to be the mature and rational one.

#42 Edited by dshipp17 (981 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer said:

@dshipp17: I find it ironic that you question my manhood then make physical threats, all while claiming to be the mature and rational one.

Comparatively speaking, I am the mature and rational one; this is the first post that you've interpreted as a physical threat, while nearly every response you've made to me you've both attempted to insult my intelligence and resorted to name calling; honestly, this behavior of yours comes across as childish; when you've lost a point, the mature way of handling is either to acknowledge the lost and agree or leave the discussion be without comment, and try to pick up next time; with either of these two categories of reaction, despite age, that's how I know I'm dealing with a mature person; I'm not making a physical threat, but the encounter could get physical, depending on how you would respond to being pasted; maybe I shouldn't have used that word; as the one trying to display maturity, my apologies for the use of that term.

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