Why Wonder Woman Still Does Not Appeal to Women

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Posted by thehummingbird (3378 posts) - - Show Bio

 SInce comic books began they have always held a stronger appeal to the male demographic. I believe that early on in the comic book world we could blame this on the small amount of female protagonists as well as antagonists. Now this is not the case, however, their are tons of female leads in the world of comics, but I can not  even name another girl I know in real life other than myself who has had read a whole comic book series. I would hardly call comic books manly, but even now with the strong leading females why do girls not feel drawn to these characters? Most likely because in this male dominated industry most of the girls designs and personalities are shaped by men, this in itself is not bad, only that men make the kind of girls men want to see. Catwoman wears more clothes than any almost any other comic book girl I can think of, but her sex appeal still goes beyond the normal levels of any Angelina Jolie movie. Most of the female characters supped up to the point where no girl alive without thorough amounts of plastic surgery could ever match up to it. The other main reason is the stereotypes of the girl characters. Print off any generic list of character archetypes and you can put almost any comic book girl can match up to one of them. The strong independent woman character of Wonder Woman has been over done to a point beyond return. Modern girls do not wish to see girls in a position of power, but being heart broke and pregnant by their ex’s (secret life of the American teenager anyone?). While this does exist within the comic book world (just look at the story of Selina Kyle) it is not the main focus of the story only a tiny piece of the bigger picture. The front that comics put on to the rest of the world is a bunch of brainless super heroes beating the turd out of some super villain who wants to rule the world, and girls with big boobs being rescued by men in tights. This as I said is only the FRONT in truth comics have to much complexity, and are not shallow at all the average teenage girl wants shallow drama that they can understand (and depressingly enough) relate to. The modern girl no longer wishes for empowerment, but simplicity. I am not a feminist nor do I ever plan to be one the thought though of the mindless teenage drama shows on the CW and now (the oh so ironic channel name of…) ABC (here it comes) FAMILY!

In truth the reason comics don’t appeal to the modern girl is not even the overly sexy leads, or their overdone personalities, but the fact that the storylines are to complex for any of them to put forth the effort to even want to follow the storyline. In the few times I have tried to explain these stories to my hipster friends in denial I can not even recall how many times I have to repeat things for them, or explain things after they read for them what really happened. I guess this has gotten a little off topic, but for now I hope my point has been made…If anyone would like to add their input as to why they believe why Wonder Woman or any  girl comic book character in general do not appeal to Women let me know. I will probably read over this for grammar later for now I am tired. 

#1 Posted by Darkseid Elite (8424 posts) - - Show Bio

Wonder Woman appeals to the woman in me, and the man, big time.

#2 Posted by _Courage_ (1183 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice intellectual post. I'm not sure if it's true, but informative nonetheless. 
Many young women today are fine with being a subordinate to men, something not in alliance with Wonder Woman.

#3 Posted by FLCL1 (9580 posts) - - Show Bio

wow...
#4 Posted by RazzaTazz (9478 posts) - - Show Bio

I wrote one of my earlier blogs about this, you can check it out if you like.  
 
I would argue that with Wonder Woman that the stories are not necessarily too complex, but maybe too obscure.  Who cares that the Greek gods are upset or bored of whatever.  The modern world is full of a lot of problems which need dealing with.  I sort of compare this to the Jason Bourne movies.  The of course unrealistic, but they seem realistic, and this is the aspect which comics are missing.  I think WW is heading down the right road with the new direction.  The old direction of mythology based stories is just dull.

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#5 Posted by thehummingbird (3378 posts) - - Show Bio
@RazzaTazz:  
 
I just used wonder woman because of her name it made the title seem more catchy in my opinion. The original title was something along the lines of Female archetypes in comic books and why they never appealed to girls. A little more drab, WOnder woman is actually one my least favorite comic book girls...I like huntress harley, and catwoman much more. 
#6 Posted by RazzaTazz (9478 posts) - - Show Bio
@thehummingbird: I see, Wonder Woman is the one character which I have never really been able to give up on.  She has so much potential as a character which is almost never tapped into but when it is I love it.
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#7 Posted by ragdollpurps (15572 posts) - - Show Bio

I can relate when you say you can't even name another girl that you know in real life that actually reads comics. Just this semester I walked up to a girl wearing a Batman shirt and asked if she actually read Batman comics and she said no. I was kinda bummed cause I don't have many girl friends to begin with and none of them read comics. As for why Wonder Woman doesn't appeal to women, I'll just give you the reasons as to why she doesn't appeal to me. I was really just thinking about this the other day, when I was younger pretty much the only thing I would read were books on mythology. Greek mythology especially. I thought to myself  "well, why don't I read Wonder Woman? I'm sure she has run-in's with the Gods all the time." And really, I don't think that it's because her stories are too obscure, I just don't feel that she's edgy enough. To me, Diana's a good girl. Good girls do good things. They do what they're supposed. They do what's expected of them as opposed to what they want. Where's the fun in that? It's like the Good Mother vs. the New Woman. Yea, there are positives to both, but one is just so old fashioned while the other is more current. Now, I'm a huge Catwoman fan. I can honestly say that I would not be the woman I am today without dear Selina. But why does Selina appeal to me more than Diana? She's edgy. She's dark. She's unpredictable. But more importantly, she's vulnerable. Sure she can handle herself, but she still retains humanity. She can still be hurt physically AND emotionally. Diana is a goddess. She can deflect bullets with her bracelets for Christ's sake. All in all modern women just can't relate to her enough.

#8 Posted by SC (12698 posts) - - Show Bio

I tend to think its accessibility and quality and knowing where to look. Lots of choices, not all of them generally good choices for women, in the same way it is for males purchasing something in a market geared traditionally towards females by default (as opposed to choice) Maybe I am too in the system, to accurately assess the complexity of comic book storylines, but my non comic fan friends find them okay enough to enjoy. Then again, I do pick out what books they might enjoy.  
 
I think Wonder Woman's main problem, is lacking fun, and innovation. Sometimes it seems like DC is trying to create some sort of definitive Wonder Woman run, encompassing all that she is as a character, in one perfect story. Man that sounds impossible, plus too much emphasis on the past. Might be nice to add a touch of modern day relevancy and let Wonder Woman act really badass. Heroic and noble of course but badass as well. Anyone can appreciate a warrior being awesome right? lol I agree with RazzaTazz in that she has so much potential.  
 
Oh plus that Wonder woman book aimed for younger readers sounded awesome, and its great to get readers that early (I would have probably read it to if it was as awesome as Thor The Mighty Avenger book)

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#9 Posted by TypingKira (3509 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's more about getting them interested in comics at a young age.  
 
 
@SC:
 That book is on my top 2 that I HAVE TO get. 

#10 Posted by SC (12698 posts) - - Show Bio
@TypingKira said:
" I think it's more about getting them interested in comics at a young age.  
 
@SC:
 That book is on my top 2 that I HAVE TO get.  "
 
Along with Thor: Son of Asgard I must presume? lol ^_^
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#11 Posted by TypingKira (3509 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
" @TypingKira said:
" I think it's more about getting them interested in comics at a young age.  
 
@SC:
 That book is on my top 2 that I HAVE TO get.  "
 Along with Thor: Son of Asgard I must presume? lol ^_^ "
LOL, hey, I'm working on a nanny's salary! I have expenses to help with!
#12 Posted by TypingKira (3509 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC: But I'd like to get the Jms/coipel trades. 
#13 Posted by SC (12698 posts) - - Show Bio
@ragdollpurps said:
"I don't think that it's because her stories are too obscure, I just don't feel that she's edgy enough. To me, Diana's a good girl. Good girls do good things. They do what they're supposed. They do what's expected of them as opposed to what they want. Where's the fun in that? It's like the Good Mother vs. the New Woman. Yea, there are positives to both, but one is just so old fashioned while the other is more current. Now, I'm a huge Catwoman fan. I can honestly say that I would not be the woman I am today without dear Selina. But why does Selina appeal to me more than Diana? She's edgy. She's dark. She's unpredictable. But more importantly, she's vulnerable. Sure she can handle herself, but she still retains humanity. She can still be hurt physically AND emotionally. Diana is a goddess. She can deflect bullets with her bracelets for Christ's sake. All in all modern women just can't relate to her enough. "
 
I think this is another burden for her character, since Wonder Woman is still treated like a character that has to be too many things, for too many different readers. Except she can't rely on the fans who consider her the first superhero and the most iconic superhero and therefore the default, nor can she rely on the wish fulfillment angle fans either, at least not as much as other characters who also try and attempt to be so many different things for such a broad amount of people. I tend to think Wonder Woman doesn't need to be relatable to be appreciated (just in regard to the physical sense) 80's Rogue was, and generally still is really popular with females who read her and she could be knocked into orbit and still be conscious and yawn at machine gun bullets, and that stuff is hella fun, but importantly as you suggest she tended to be quite emotionally vulnerable, along with the no skin contact clause. Still, there are many male characters I can't imagine are popular just because of some wish fulfillment angle,  those that can walk though stars and stoically strut out of nuclear bomb explosions, sometimes that stuff is just fun and silly, but it depends on the writing and what your audience expects.  I think Diana can be emotionally and physically stoic, for one or two issues extremely so, it just means better and clever writing to illustrate how edgy and raw she can be regardless, and presenting adversity in similar proportion to Selina's dangers (like in the other one or two issues that make up a story arc) since thats where a characters vulnerability can be revealed and then their ability to overcome heroically (and in Wonder Woman's case awesomely) to defeat or subdue adversity.  
 
Though like I said, broad character and context, and lots of fans who could, would prefer her a different way. (I liked and agree with your post overall, it was very well said, just sort of inserting another angle)
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#14 Posted by SC (12698 posts) - - Show Bio
@TypingKira said:
" @SC: But I'd like to get the Jms/coipel trades.  "
 
Those are pretty good. I would have loved a second Wonder Woman ongoing with that creative team that was maybe out of continuity. Coipel is coming back to Thor by the way. Can't wait! 
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#15 Posted by TypingKira (3509 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
" @TypingKira said:
" @SC: But I'd like to get the Jms/coipel trades.  "
 Those are pretty good. I would have loved a second Wonder Woman ongoing with that creative team that was maybe out of continuity. Coipel is coming back to Thor by the way. Can't wait!  "
:DDDDDDDDDDD 
 
OMfreakin'Godfriednowaythat'ssogreatahhh!!!  
 
Coipel does the best THor!!!!!! I don't care who the writer is anymore. As long as Coipel illustrates. Coipel is the reservoir from which I draw all artistic know-how. Coipel is ART!!! 
 
Ooh, they did a Wonder Woman together? That sound great. 
#16 Edited by CosmicSpiral (5471 posts) - - Show Bio

Comic books in general do not have a good synthesis between the art and the writing (simplistic division, but an effective one). Since every issue is a work essentially done by committee, it needs to roll on all accounts to be truly engaging; since every issue is a work essentially done by committee, it rarely ever works on all accounts.  
 
People like seeing trash shows because they're entertaining.  

#17 Posted by Xavier St. Cloud (1924 posts) - - Show Bio
@RazzaTazz said:
"I wrote one of my earlier blogs about this, you can check it out if you like.   I would argue that with Wonder Woman that the stories are not necessarily too complex, but maybe too obscure.  Who cares that the Greek gods are upset or bored of whatever.  The modern world is full of a lot of problems which need dealing with.  I sort of compare this to the Jason Bourne movies.  The of course unrealistic, but they seem realistic, and this is the aspect which comics are missing.  I think WW is heading down the right road with the new direction.  The old direction of mythology based stories is just dull. "

Your dull... You have never once made me think wow, there is something I have never thought about before... Diana is one of the most intresting comic characters ever IMHO. You feel like talking poorly about mythology... I don't understand... Today's world sucks, I long for a hero from the past.         Now if  you see what I just did... The same as you, this does not help. It was a rude statement, you are a rude person, who talks poorly about a loved character, who has a huge fan base.... I was only making a point and hope you understand.
#18 Posted by rogue_mar1e (19833 posts) - - Show Bio

Wonder Woman appeals to me :D

#19 Posted by Xavier St. Cloud (1924 posts) - - Show Bio
@rogue_mar1e said:
"Wonder Woman appeals to me :D "


 

Me aswell.
#20 Posted by Sylver (1554 posts) - - Show Bio

Same here. I like her. Granted, she's not my absolute fav, but so what? I like Black Canary, Gypsy, Miss Martian...etc. :-)
But yes, I have to agree, most girls these days are pretty...simple minded.  Don't really care much for their lives.  It's sad, but a very valid point, as brought up by the fact in this blog.

#21 Posted by SC (12698 posts) - - Show Bio
@Xavier St. Cloud said:
" @RazzaTazz said:
"I wrote one of my earlier blogs about this, you can check it out if you like.   I would argue that with Wonder Woman that the stories are not necessarily too complex, but maybe too obscure.  Who cares that the Greek gods are upset or bored of whatever.  The modern world is full of a lot of problems which need dealing with.  I sort of compare this to the Jason Bourne movies.  The of course unrealistic, but they seem realistic, and this is the aspect which comics are missing.  I think WW is heading down the right road with the new direction.  The old direction of mythology based stories is just dull. "
Your dull... You have never once made me think wow, there is something I have never thought about before... Diana is one of the most intresting comic characters ever IMHO. You feel like talking poorly about mythology... I don't understand... Today's world sucks, I long for a hero from the past.         Now if  you see what I just did... The same as you, this does not help. It was a rude statement, you are a rude person, who talks poorly about a loved character, who has a huge fan base.... I was only making a point and hope you understand. "
 
Your point seems a bit poorly constructed to me, you apply personal opinion to someone applying what they might see as potential for a character that they also happen to like and mention liking? Why should you deny further success to a character you like or deny others the right to see potential in the character as well? A averagely selling ongoing book might be enough for you, but why can't others dream bigger, and wish for more?  
 
If IMHO, stands for 'in my humble opinion', then it doesn't really come across as humble at all, given the context you establish. You also don't need to apply any objectivity. If its your opinion you need no justification, thats what opinions are. On an individual basis then its all well and well talking about what one finds appealing, I like mythology, but I can understand the point of the person you quoted and the criticisms of how it applies to Wonder Woman, as should many fans, and the pros involved as well.  
 
It was not a rude statement and they are most definitely not a rude person. You can perceive rudeness, and their can be rude intent, guess which one i think happened here? Its also far from speaking poorly of a character and the relevance of her having a fanbase is? I hope they understand your point. lol I don't. It comes across rather ironically rude and jerky. I hope my perceptions are incorrect? 
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#22 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

Wonder Woman's biggest problem is that every writer thinks its their job to have Diana beat the hell out of male character and say "that's how women do it!"
 
Diana is a feminist icon, no matter what she does, so long as she's written in character, that will be apparent. And that's a good thing, constantly ramming pseudo-relevant political themes down the reader's throat is a bad thing.  I can't read some Wonder Woman stories because they're basically misandrist propaganda (see the Hiketeia).

#23 Posted by SC (12698 posts) - - Show Bio
@TypingKira said:
" :DDDDDDDDDDD  OMfreakin'Godfriednowaythat'ssogreatahhh!!!   Coipel does the best THor!!!!!! I don't care who the writer is anymore. As long as Coipel illustrates. Coipel is the reservoir from which I draw all artistic know-how. Coipel is ART!!!  Ooh, they did a Wonder Woman together? That sound great.  "
 
I can't wait to see his Galactus. Still I thought you didn't like Fraction?  
 
I wish Coipel was on Wonder Woman, but no, not that i am aware of, that was just me musing about what my dream team would be. Except a lot of why they worked so good with Thor was because it was a relaunch. Plus they pretty much were in a healthy position to establish a new status quo. Wonder Woman is too popular, successful, and tied up in other books (relatively), to get a year from everything to build up a solid base to relaunch her into a new status. 
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#24 Posted by TypingKira (3509 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
" @TypingKira said:
" :DDDDDDDDDDD  OMfreakin'Godfriednowaythat'ssogreatahhh!!!   Coipel does the best THor!!!!!! I don't care who the writer is anymore. As long as Coipel illustrates. Coipel is the reservoir from which I draw all artistic know-how. Coipel is ART!!!  Ooh, they did a Wonder Woman together? That sound great.  "
 I can't wait to see his Galactus. Still I thought you didn't like Fraction?   I wish Coipel was on Wonder Woman, but no, not that i am aware of, that was just me musing about what my dream team would be. Except a lot of why they worked so good with Thor was because it was a relaunch. Plus they pretty much were in a healthy position to establish a new status quo. Wonder Woman is too popular, successful, and tied up in other books (relatively), to get a year from everything to build up a solid base to relaunch her into a new status.  "
I hate Fraction with the zipping white hot tingly lightning of a thousand Mjolnirs due to what he did to my Anthy's beloved and because he is OVERUSING THE RAGNAROK THING which drives me nuts. But I love Coipel more. This is how much I love Coipel--I would read Fraction's run if Coipel illustrated it. Coipel becomes above the writer. He tells the story with his art so well.   
 
I love the current art too tho, Thor has a very distinctive look here and I have to say, I really like it. 

Yeah, and IMO it was a great relaunch.  It seems like, in the direction that she's currently (or was a little bit ago, I don't keep up with mah WW so much) going, I'd say a reboot of her books might be necessary at some point. But I don't know, it just looks like that to me, from a third party standpoint. 
#25 Edited by RazzaTazz (9478 posts) - - Show Bio
@Xavier St. Cloud said:

" @RazzaTazz said:

"I wrote one of my earlier blogs about this, you can check it out if you like.   I would argue that with Wonder Woman that the stories are not necessarily too complex, but maybe too obscure.  Who cares that the Greek gods are upset or bored of whatever.  The modern world is full of a lot of problems which need dealing with.  I sort of compare this to the Jason Bourne movies.  The of course unrealistic, but they seem realistic, and this is the aspect which comics are missing.  I think WW is heading down the right road with the new direction.  The old direction of mythology based stories is just dull. "
Your dull... You have never once made me think wow, there is something I have never thought about before... Diana is one of the most intresting comic characters ever IMHO. You feel like talking poorly about mythology... I don't understand... Today's world sucks, I long for a hero from the past.         Now if  you see what I just did... The same as you, this does not help. It was a rude statement, you are a rude person, who talks poorly about a loved character, who has a huge fan base.... I was only making a point and hope you understand. "
I think its fair to say that you and I dont have much in common.  You are politically conservative and a lover of weapons, I am politically liberal and a lover of the environment.  We probably read comics for different things.  I like the fact that they can portray women accurately, but they often miss the mark.  As a female fan (and I dont speak for all female fans) I would be happier with a bit more relevance to modern society in her stories, I dont find the link to stuff that happened two or three millenia ago very exciting.  I think you got me wrong as well, I have been a lifelong fan of Diana's.  I have read about 99% of all Wonder Woman issues over the four volumes, and a lot of her other appearances.   
 
If you want a hero from the past to worship, why don't you just do like most conservatives Americans and choose Ronald Reagan?
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#26 Posted by Xavier St. Cloud (1924 posts) - - Show Bio
@RazzaTazz: No I am more of a Teddy Roosevelt kind of guy. You don't speak for anyone but yourself. You can't say I speak for females... You have no way of proving that to me, or anyone else. When you have a character who has lived for millenia's, it is very relevant and important to show what happend to them in their history that made them the way they are... Diana does not fit in the world today, she does her best to understand us, but there are alot of things about people that she will never understand, because of her upbringing.  I would also like to say I am sorry for my harsh words, I was drunk when I posted that, and tactless. I could have said it better, basicly I felt you were cutting down on a favorite character of mine, I am a history buff, aswell.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
@SC: You missed my point... I was showing how calling someone dull, is a hurtful remark. Even more so, when it is aimed at a main beloved character like Wonder Woman. I was drunk when I posted, and was a bit harsh, and I am sorry.
#27 Posted by SC (12698 posts) - - Show Bio
@Xavier St. Cloud: I didn't try to get your point, that I believe I stated, because I felt it wasn't stated well (which you seem okay in admitting now, which is appreciated) A hurtful remark requires one to either unintentionally or intentionally make a remark, that hurts or doesn't hurt another. (there are a few combinations apparent) So you meant to indicate the dull remark could be hurtful? Like everything? Its not really generally hurtful aimed at a character like Wonder Woman inherently, only by adding the context of people or fans, in which case they can speak up, or simply disagree. How can a persons opinion towards something fictional hurt an indirect someone living? I don't know man, your example could have been a lot clearer. You could have accused Jason Bourne of being dull, to illustrate your point as well. I am a huge Wonder Woman fan, sometimes her writer writes her dull, so by extension she can be sometimes. This applies to all my favorite characters. I should be hurt or offended by my own opinion? I think the main issue... was... you were drunk? You aren't still drunk I mean, or hung over?... No offense of course, just Razzatazz expressly stated "I dont speak for all female fans" so why do you reply with "You don't speak for anyone but yourself. You can't say I speak for females... You have no way of proving that to me, or anyone else" oh and I hope you realize Razzatazz is a Wonder Woman fan just like me too? I even actually like the mythological aspect of her and don't find it boring. Still. DC needs to do something with her to get her out of the rut she is in, she could be a lot more prominent and relevant for more than just the people like me and you who are already fans. 
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#28 Posted by RazzaTazz (9478 posts) - - Show Bio
@Xavier St. Cloud: I know a bit about the mythology of the Ancients, yet I don't find their stories particularly compelling.  Why?  Because Wonder Woman should branch out and create her own stories.  If they wanted to write her like she is a Greek myth that would be fine, I would probably still read it, but they sort of go half and half.  I reviewed a comic yesterday which shows the sort of ad hoc manner in which they write Wonder Woman stories - they messed up the Gods between Greek and Roman, then sent her into space.  So is it mythology or sci fi?  Sadly it was both.  There are even some great sci fi stories in volume 2 around issue 70 there was an arc where Diana gets captured and enslaved on an alien planet - loved that one.
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#29 Posted by Xavier St. Cloud (1924 posts) - - Show Bio
@RazzaTazz:  Diana is caught between both worlds, she is not one of us... Superman is more like one of us, than Wonder Woman is. It is immportant all the same, when you understand where a character comes from, it helps to understand why they do or act a the way they do... I admit, that not every writer, stays true to her as a character, however, that does not make Diana dull, it only makes the writing dull at that time.  I actually think it makes her more interesting, also I would say her past makes her a hard character to write, she has a vast history, like Thor but to a lesser extent. When you are thousands of years old, you have a better understanding of who you are as a person... More than we could ever hope to learn about ourselves in one life-time. IMO.
 
#30 Posted by Xavier St. Cloud (1924 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC: Well seeing as how you don't want to try to get my point, I am not going to try to see yours either. Have fun talking to yourself. Why do I even try... It does not matter if you think it was not rude, it was not your point.   I felt it was rude, which is why I said what I said. You can try to see why I feel that way or don't. Thats is your right. It is my right to say if I feel someone is being unfare.
#31 Posted by RazzaTazz (9478 posts) - - Show Bio
@Xavier St. Cloud: I think if you had written something like that in your first response instead of some drunken reply,that it would have helped to get your point across better.  I don't think anything happened except that maybe you lost some esteem in some people's eyes here.  Still I can appreciate your (presumably sober) opinion.  If you like a combination of sci fi and mythology in one story then I cant take that away from you.  As a female fan I also always like to point that about 99% of Diana's writers over the years have been males.  When she has some moment in her life which is feminine and important they never write it correctly.  Oh well...   
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#32 Posted by Renee (10289 posts) - - Show Bio
@Xavier St. Cloud said:
" @rogue_mar1e said:
"Wonder Woman appeals to me :D "


Me aswell. "
And me!
#33 Posted by TypingKira (3509 posts) - - Show Bio
@Renee said:
" @Xavier St. Cloud said:
" @rogue_mar1e said:
"Wonder Woman appeals to me :D "


Me aswell. "
And me! "
I love WW.
#34 Posted by realsilverjunk (334 posts) - - Show Bio

I wouldn't want to read a boring book about some preggie depressed fat chick either. I don't really pay to much attention to wonder woman, but in stuff like Justice League, I see the female leads as equal characters. Not some person that's just there to be a girl. Superheroes that are too human don't feel super to me. 

#35 Edited by Vance Astro (91114 posts) - - Show Bio

There are flaws in the way Wonder Woman is written but most characters nowadays aren't written very well.Male or female alot of characters in comics aren't based in reality.Their personailites are carbon copies of each other, the powers are recycled etc. etc. If you want more female characters to appeal to women...I think first there should be more female writers.Every guy doesn't know how to write for a woman.Half of us can't even figure real women out..so obviously alot of female characters will be a reflexion of their attitude or their beliefs about women.Wonder Woman is a good character I just think like with every character..if you have a huge company and you rotate on who's writing it you're going to have varying ideas thus making what is actually true to Wonder Woman foggy.Consistency is a huge flaw in comics..one you can't get away with in any other visual media...but that's just what it is.We could probably all think of several ways Wonder Woman could be better as a character or how DC could improve her but alot of comic readers are unintelligent like many people who consume media massively so they would rather stick to stereyotypes and gimmicks.Crap writing somehow works for them.

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#36 Posted by Band Lone (1789 posts) - - Show Bio

Because Wonder Woman don't like today's women so today's women don't like her either XD 
 
Didn't you watch the animated film? xD

#37 Posted by thehummingbird (3378 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro:  
 
I agree with you a lot, and it does make me rather sad to see next to no female writers in the comic book world. I can not personally say that men do not understand women, for I am not a man, but this is also a stereotype that many say, and by comic book writing and the way the girls are dressed, it is quite obvious that it is a mans world. (not that girls can not like it or that it is masculine, just that guys are mainly the minds behind it) Most of the world does not like to think adding to much complexity often throughs people off their game (and heavens no, we can not confuse the idiots, if we do how would we make money?) so this s taken advantage of by as you said the inconstancy and the obvious use of an archetype analysis hand out of the middle school level. This could easily be another interesting thing to blog about, how writers make use of the unintelligent in order to make profits xP
#38 Posted by texasdeathmatch (13171 posts) - - Show Bio

the same reason comics in general don't appeal to women

#39 Posted by MKF30 (11635 posts) - - Show Bio

Didn't WW appeal to women way back? I watched a history vid on here, they said women liked her way back...

#40 Edited by Vance Astro (91114 posts) - - Show Bio
@thehummingbird said:

" @Vance Astro:   I agree with you a lot, and it does make me rather sad to see next to no female writers in the comic book world. I can not personally say that men do not understand women, for I am not a man, but this is also a stereotype that many say, and by comic book writing and the way the girls are dressed, it is quite obvious that it is a mans world. (not that girls can not like it or that it is masculine, just that guys are mainly the minds behind it) Most of the world does not like to think adding to much complexity often throughs people off their game (and heavens no, we can not confuse the idiots, if we do how would we make money?) so this s taken advantage of by as you said the inconstancy and the obvious use of an archetype analysis hand out of the middle school level. This could easily be another interesting thing to blog about, how writers make use of the unintelligent in order to make profits xP "

Costumes aren't any proof that the comics industry is controlled my men.Male and Female characters wear virtually the same costumes..the only difference is in their body.It's kind of like wrestling.They're all out there in tight spandex but the way it fits a woman's body it comes off as "sexy".
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#41 Posted by Xavier St. Cloud (1924 posts) - - Show Bio
@RazzaTazz said:
" @Xavier St. Cloud: I think if you had written something like that in your first response instead of some drunken reply,that it would have helped to get your point across better.  I don't think anything happened except that maybe you lost some esteem in some people's eyes here.  Still I can appreciate your (presumably sober) opinion.  If you like a combination of sci fi and mythology in one story then I cant take that away from you.  As a female fan I also always like to point that about 99% of Diana's writers over the years have been males.  When she has some moment in her life which is feminine and important they never write it correctly.  Oh well...    "

 
Beta Ray Bill is one of my all time favorite characters... Myth/Sci fi.  She does not have very many of these moments... Wonder Woman is not a faminine character, and her brand of feminine would not match what is coined as normal feminine behavior.
#42 Posted by SC (12698 posts) - - Show Bio
@Xavier St. Cloud said:
" @SC: Well seeing as how you don't want to try to get my point, I am not going to try to see yours either. Have fun talking to yourself. Why do I even try... It does not matter if you think it was not rude, it was not your point.   I felt it was rude, which is why I said what I said. You can try to see why I feel that way or don't. Thats is your right. It is my right to say if I feel someone is being unfare. "
 
Oh I tried to get your point, how can that not be apparent? I am implying I gave up trying to get what your point was, because I didn't wish to reply to words you might not have meant, your post seemed to contradict itself, and wasn't clear. Why should one choose to apply certainty to an ambiguous point when that point may not have been the persons? Do you understand clearer now? You seem somewhat passive aggressive, or you might just be really defensive, perhaps you observe some insult and respond accordingly? Your first method of reply seems to be bitter (have fun talking to yourself, why do I even try etc).  If you feel attacked, then I apologize. Possibly read all my statements directed at you?
 
I already acknowledged that I understood its within your capacity to find the comment rude. I passed no judgement, or made no argument that you shouldn't, i merely chose to point out that you personally chose to observe it as rude. I am saying objectively thats not the case. People choose to be offended over anything. Hey, your username? The cloud bit? Well my dog was killed by a cloud. Should that mean I call you a rude person with a rude username? I have the technical right to. Except what a weird way to confront someone. If I did call your a rude person with a rude username, I would hope many posters actively step in and call me on acting the fool lol 
 
Thats the right I am choosing to adopt here, my right to call other people on being unfair to other actual living breathing people, over fictional paper people. You already apologized though, so I am not sure why you choose to reply to me? I am not disputing your right to call posters rude and unfair for saying a character they like and appreciate can be a bit boring. In fact I appreciate it, i was invoking that same right to explain how your words were rude and unfair, but I was doing it as nicely as possible (your application of specifics vs their generalizations, and how their words were more objective, yours were more subjective, generally thats an odd combination, one ought to use specific examples to support an objective point, subjective points you could probably rely more on opinion, and generalization.  
 
All good? 
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#43 Posted by Xavier St. Cloud (1924 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC: All good. I took some of your comments to me, as patronizing. I have a well know, temper. I like to let people know when I feel they are being, or have been, rude, unfair. In hopes that they think about it, and not repeat... I already said I was sorry, and I admitted that I was drinking Saterday night, the word WAS suggests that I am no longer... I don't want the image that I am a raging drunk painted as me, because that is not the case, I only cut loose every once and awhile... I admit, that I am extra sensitive, while I am drinking... However, I felt I was under attack for trying to make a point... All I was trying to say was that it was rude, like my comment was rude... I admit that my comment was too harsh, however that was me at the time trying to prove a point.
#44 Posted by SC (12698 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:
" @thehummingbird said:

" @Vance Astro:   I agree with you a lot, and it does make me rather sad to see next to no female writers in the comic book world. I can not personally say that men do not understand women, for I am not a man, but this is also a stereotype that many say, and by comic book writing and the way the girls are dressed, it is quite obvious that it is a mans world. (not that girls can not like it or that it is masculine, just that guys are mainly the minds behind it) Most of the world does not like to think adding to much complexity often throughs people off their game (and heavens no, we can not confuse the idiots, if we do how would we make money?) so this s taken advantage of by as you said the inconstancy and the obvious use of an archetype analysis hand out of the middle school level. This could easily be another interesting thing to blog about, how writers make use of the unintelligent in order to make profits xP "

Costumes aren't any proof that the comics industry is controlled my men.Male and Female characters wear virtually the same costumes..the only difference is in their body.It's kind of like wrestling.They're all out there in tight spandex but the way it fits a woman's body it comes off as "sexy". "
 
Its pretty good proof if one knows their gender studies, and history of clothing uhm... a clothesologist? lol Or and a sexologist (juvenile giggle)
 
Its about emphasis and focus, nature and nurture, and programming. Those things don't have to be conscious either, its just the way most people are naturally. You see what's valued physically about yourself, when you make an exaggerated caricature, create an idealized cartoon form, those things are actively emphasized. Men generally by default, and men raised and culturally in a lot of places, tend to find that larger muscles, strong jawlines, I am sure you already know the rest are valued and seen as a type of perfection. Outfits will be created to bear this in mind. Emphasis the good, downplay the bad. When you take age consideration into mind, this is also why men lose their package in comics. Its obscene for the children and all that. Men will traditionally follow suit with female characters, and not in a intended negative way, just their idealized version of females generally doesn't match up with females idea, at least not as much as it lines up with other males. (just like many young girls general idea of an idealized male doesn't match up with boys projection. (Its why we like girls in that way, and girls like guys in that way) Most men have to consciously realize this and then go about designing or drawing characters. Generally though (again) a strange amount of detail is often attributed to the female sex organs when it comes to outfits (this is why a big deal was made over Batman's nipples in the movie lol doesn't happen with males as much), even though both males and females as you correctly assert, wear 'virtually' the same costumes. Often the cut and shape of how the spandex is designed and its texture and shape, one can observe to not what areas are focused on and empathized. Again not in a negative way, the opposite really, since it is about idealized form. its just the mind of the one idealizing is often male, and often trained to think that way and is naturally predisposed to think that way as well. It can also be a subtle effect as well.  
 
I am averagely good at identifying gender of an artist by their art and or style of uniforms. Its a bit easier and harder today because more female artists and more new artists generally with funky real styles, and a lot of older trained artists who repeat a similar formula as their predecessors.
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#45 Posted by SC (12698 posts) - - Show Bio
@Xavier St. Cloud:  Cool, cool, glad its all sorted. Sorry if I came off as patronizing. Take care. ^_^
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#46 Posted by Xavier St. Cloud (1924 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC: You too. I am happy aswell, I just like characters too much is all. I have been a Wonder Woman fan for like 20+ years now. I have only been on the Vine for a year, give or take... Not sure.
#47 Posted by Vance Astro (91114 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
" @Vance Astro said:
" @thehummingbird said:

" @Vance Astro:   I agree with you a lot, and it does make me rather sad to see next to no female writers in the comic book world. I can not personally say that men do not understand women, for I am not a man, but this is also a stereotype that many say, and by comic book writing and the way the girls are dressed, it is quite obvious that it is a mans world. (not that girls can not like it or that it is masculine, just that guys are mainly the minds behind it) Most of the world does not like to think adding to much complexity often throughs people off their game (and heavens no, we can not confuse the idiots, if we do how would we make money?) so this s taken advantage of by as you said the inconstancy and the obvious use of an archetype analysis hand out of the middle school level. This could easily be another interesting thing to blog about, how writers make use of the unintelligent in order to make profits xP "

Costumes aren't any proof that the comics industry is controlled my men.Male and Female characters wear virtually the same costumes..the only difference is in their body.It's kind of like wrestling.They're all out there in tight spandex but the way it fits a woman's body it comes off as "sexy". "
 Its pretty good proof if one knows their gender studies, and history of clothing uhm... a clothesologist? lol Or and a sexologist (juvenile giggle) Its about emphasis and focus, nature and nurture, and programming. Those things don't have to be conscious either, its just the way most people are naturally. You see what's valued physically about yourself, when you make an exaggerated caricature, create an idealized cartoon form, those things are actively emphasized. Men generally by default, and men raised and culturally in a lot of places, tend to find that larger muscles, strong jawlines, I am sure you already know the rest are valued and seen as a type of perfection. Outfits will be created to bear this in mind. Emphasis the good, downplay the bad. When you take age consideration into mind, this is also why men lose their package in comics. Its obscene for the children and all that. Men will traditionally follow suit with female characters, and not in a intended negative way, just their idealized version of females generally doesn't match up with females idea, at least not as much as it lines up with other males. (just like many young girls general idea of an idealized male doesn't match up with boys projection. (Its why we like girls in that way, and girls like guys in that way) Most men have to consciously realize this and then go about designing or drawing characters. Generally though (again) a strange amount of detail is often attributed to the female sex organs when it comes to outfits (this is why a big deal was made over Batman's nipples in the movie lol doesn't happen with males as much), even though both males and females as you correctly assert, wear 'virtually' the same costumes. Often the cut and shape of how the spandex is designed and its texture and shape, one can observe to not what areas are focused on and empathized. Again not in a negative way, the opposite really, since it is about idealized form. its just the mind of the one idealizing is often male, and often trained to think that way and is naturally predisposed to think that way as well. It can also be a subtle effect as well.   I am averagely good at identifying gender of an artist by their art and or style of uniforms. Its a bit easier and harder today because more female artists and more new artists generally with funky real styles, and a lot of older trained artists who repeat a similar formula as their predecessors. "
I'm just saying the "amount of cloth" actually covering the characters is the same.The way the female characters come across in these costumes is a product of the artist.It's not the costumes themselves that make the images sexualized.Have you ever seen J.Scott Campbell's, Mary Jane? Even in jeans and a t-shirt he can make her appear sexy.That's in real life as well though.Me and a woman can wear the same exact outfit and people's reaction to her in the outfit could be the complete opposite and even if the outfit is as simple as a white t-shirt and jeans.I have never identified whether an artist is male or female because the only female artist I know of in comics is Jo Chen.I'm sure there are way more.I just don't know any so it's hard for me to identify a contrast.
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#48 Posted by kuchiku (4070 posts) - - Show Bio

Im a girl and Wonder woman is not very appealing at allo, the only reason i like her is cuz I watched her TV show when i was little, (no im not old, i had video tapes)

#49 Edited by Static Shock (47329 posts) - - Show Bio

I guess Wonder Woman doesn't appeal to women because most women don't read comic books...
 
That's all I could come up with. I know plenty of women who don't even know who Wonder Woman is.

#50 Edited by SC (12698 posts) - - Show Bio
@Vance Astro said:

" I'm just saying the "amount of cloth" actually covering the characters is the same.The way the female characters come across in these costumes is a product of the artist.It's not the costumes themselves that make the images sexualized.Have you ever seen J.Scott Campbell's, Mary Jane? Even in jeans and a t-shirt he can make her appear sexy.That's in real life as well though.Me and a woman can wear the same exact outfit and people's reaction to her in the outfit could be the complete opposite and even if the outfit is as simple as a white t-shirt and jeans.I have never identified whether an artist is male or female because the only female artist I know of in comics is Jo Chen.I'm sure there are way more.I just don't know any so it's hard for me to identify a contrast. "

 
I get what your saying (I think) I agree with a lot of it, don't get me wrong, I just disagree a little bit too. Like the post you were responding to, which asserted its obvious that the worlds of comics are in the domain of the male gender. Amount of cloth can be different (or the same), but how its used and where its used can be extremely telling. Basically the same as my last post, emphasis and focus. This is why men can have their muscle veins show though spandex, but go all Ken around the crotch. Females tend to lose definition around arms, (makes sense, smaller arms usually by in comparison to males who have veins sticking out exaggeratedly as well) except when it comes to their behinds, many artists become skilled anatomical perfectionists lol 
 
Its not an either or, sexualization isn't exclusive to the outfit or how its depicted. Both are factors.  
 
J Scott Campbell is an artist with a very stylized method of drawing. He choose to invoke sexiness by exaggerating details, that emphasis femininity, softness, and curves. He knows what he is doing. He knows his audience, he broke into the industry on the basis of drawing females sexy. Sexy in ways males generally find them sexy. Thats okay, just to some its obvious. Even in that regrd though, look at his version of Mary Jane in casual wear and compare it to Mary Jane in casual wear here?    
 




 
You think that all those holes in her pants are drawn by accident? Or that by having her arms crossed to hold her cup of tea is as well? That how she is sitting doesn't emphasis on her curves and roundness? It might be, then again that might be an underestimation of the artists skill. A good artist knows how a character sits, will emphasis and draw attention to various details and aspects of them. J. Scott Campbell is a good artist, he wants us to find Mary Jane pouty and sultry there, and sexy. He alters (or designs an outfit) to aid with this. They way he then draws that outfit aids in this.  
 
David Lafuente is a good artist as well. He knows how the cut, material, of the outfit, affects peoples generalized perceptions as well. His emphasis on Mary Jane is a lot more casual and real, as opposed to pin up. Its still stylized. Now which artist do you think tends to get quite a lot of positive feedback from males and especially females because of their artwork and designs (you read Ultimate Spider-Man?) and which artist do you think tends to get the opposite? (for the record I like both artists about the same. I prefer Lafuente's designs, but prefer Campbell's overall artistic look) 
 
Personally I find both their versions of Mary Jane sexy too. Campbell's looks designed to be pin up, and posed. Like a model who gets clothes selected to wear that they wouldn't actually, and poses on a sofa in a way no normal person would sit and I mean, what the hell, its obvious the coffee is hot, so why is she holding it with both hands? Could be that she is cold... but then why the open window and no top? lol I am joking with that last bit. Lafuente's design (still basic jeans and shirt) seems more casual and real to me, and its sexy for that reason. Definitely doesn't seem as staged or set to focus on her breasts, but, curves, eyes or lips though, things the male mind tends to think about more in this context than the female. David Lafuente is not a female, but its easy to see whose and both artists are professional and would probably know how to work for the client or product, but David Lafuente is of a new breed of artists who bear in mind that more girls read comics than ever before and so attempt to cater for a wider selection of people. 
  
Men and women are physically different thats why. The reaction will vary appropriately. Your not under the impression I am insisting that it should be the same reaction are you? I am just pointing out the different emphasis and focus can have and how observant people actually can tell comics are dominated by men, just based on outfit design, and artistic stylings, and, and, and so on. We can just look above and see the difference between two jeans. The male artists working in Marvel should know this too. Many are actively working to undo this, because without more women buying comics the industry is going to be in trouble. Its easier (easier) for more women to get in if the art considers them more as much as males, and works consciously to appeasing both. 
 
Jo Chen is pretty awesome. You are a fan? I love her art, I wish she did more Marvel and DC stuff. Interiors possibly. Her expressions are phenomenal. 
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