Why Can't Wonder Woman Have a New Costume?

Posted by Undeadpool (654 posts) - - Show Bio

Take a good look at Superman or Batman's original, 1930s costumes. They're completely different from either their current incarnation or even what most consider their "classic" looks. Now look at Wonder Woman's. In sixty years, not one stitch is different.

Batman and Superman both have established costumes that are considered their "classics," for Supes it is, more or less, his Silver Age costume. The darker blue, the larger symbol, the red and gold are all completely iconic, much moreso than his original look. For Batman it gets a little more complex as his Neal Adams incarnation is usually the go-to for the look, even if the color palette and bat-symbol have changed.

And there was some backlash for these, and especially for the most recent, changes. But nothing compared to the vitriolic, frothing rage that accompanied a short jacket and pants for Wonder Woman's out-dated look. So much so that DC actually rolled back to it and kept it through the New-52 relaunch. But why her? Why is it SO important for Wonder Woman to keep that look? Well the sad truth may be: it's all she's got.

If it weren't for the coloration and style, could you even tell when this was drawn?
== TEASER ==
Pictured: Not even a good idea at the time

Quick! Name the most influential Batman story ever written! Not necessarily the best, but the one that defines who Bats is in the modern world. Did you say Long Halloween? Maybe Hush? Dark Knight Returns? Maybe Death in the Family if you've forgotten Joker becoming the ambassador to Iran?

How about Supes? It gets a little tougher because, in my opinion, Superman is just about toughest character to write for in all of comics. But you've still got Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?, Superman For All Seasons, or Birthright.

Now quick: name the one arc that totally defines the character of Wonder Woman. I'm so into comics that I've opened a store AND write about them for a living, and I can't answer that question. The current New-52 incarnation is actually one of the best, most solid pieces of character-defining writing the character has ever received and while Straczynski had an epic run, I would say that as a character nothing really happened to Wonder Woman herself. It seems to be the same reason we can't get a WW movie, despite he being one of the "Big 3" of DC. I also just this second realized that she doesn't have a proper nickname like "Bats" and "Supes." Or "The Dark Knight" and "The Blue Boyscout." Or "The Bat" and "The Man of Steel."

To go off on a slight, but related, tangent: Red Letter Media recently completed a masterful deconstruction of Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. In it, the salient point was made that, despite the great movies and fond memories: Jones isn't in any way an interesting character. This was driven home by the host's hypothetical situation that if Jones' trademark fedora, leather jacket and whip were removed, what would set the character apart from the myriad other pulp adventurers? As much fun as those movies are, and I personally enjoy the first three very much, it's very true: Indiana Jones is defined more by his appearance than by his personality. And the same could be said of Wonder Woman. She's never had a writer with a steady enough hand to really nail down what makes her HER. One arc has her as a tough-as-nails warrior who has no time for petty concerns and others have her as a more nurturing, motherly figure trying to protect everyone she can.

Pictured: A reasonable evolution.

Putting aside her BDSM-laden origin, (ah, phrases you only hear in comics) which was also titanically sexist, what defines Wonder Woman that doesn't define a myriad of other heroes? Determination? Easily the most generic personality trait to ascribe to a superhero. Caring? Is she? She's often portrayed much more as a militaristic-minded, hardened fighter.

I'm sure the comment section of this very article will provide many traits that could accurately describe Wonder Woman, but I wonder how many will be contradictory and from storylines that are relatively close together.

We've seen Diana get an update with the latest issue of her title, but this feels much more like a temporary thing, though personally I think it could stand to stick around for awhile. With Carol Danvers getting an amazing, modern redesign, isn't it about time to retire the 1930s-style one-piece swimsuit for female superheroes? Isn't it time for Wonder Woman's costume to evolve along with her character?

Staff
#1 Posted by krspaceT (1484 posts) - - Show Bio

Um....because woman are treated as unequal in society, and particularly in comics

#2 Posted by NightFang (10054 posts) - - Show Bio

@krspaceT said:

Um....because woman are treated as unequal in society, and particularly in comics

That's not true, well at less in comics.

Online
#3 Posted by Eyz (3095 posts) - - Show Bio

Three Words: "Haters' gonna hate"! :P

#4 Posted by Billy Batson (58021 posts) - - Show Bio

Because people are used to the norm.

BB

#5 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

Take a good look at Superman or Batman's original, 1930s costumes. They're completely different from either their current incarnation or even what most consider their "classic" looks. Now look at Wonder Woman's. In sixty years, not one stitch is different.

First of all, that is completely false. Exactly like other two, the only thing that really changed was the texture (details and colors).

Putting aside her BDSM-laden origin, (ah, phrases you only hear in comics) which was also titanically sexist, what defines Wonder Woman that doesn't define a myriad of other heroes? Determination? Easily the most generic personality trait to ascribe to a superhero. Caring? Is she? She's often portrayed much more as a militaristic-minded, hardened fighter.

The bondage stuff was sexist but the rest of original run was actually way more feminist than what we get now. The Amazons were a feminist utopia. Now, they are your usual barbaric misogynistic cliche and the compassionate nature of Wonder-Woman that made her the hero she is no longer makes any sense.

#6 Posted by deadpoolwins:) (124 posts) - - Show Bio

I find your thought process to be near point, but slightly off. While Wonder Woman is not that well defined of a character i think the truth of the matter is "sex sells" lets face it more men read comics then woman, and seeing the half naked Wonder Woman run around is sexy. Wonder Woman as a character has been based around her sex appeal, and i feel as though the character itself might not have made it as long as she if she didn't have drooling fan boys. Wonder Woman cant have a costume change simply because all the fan boys don't want her to loose that sex appeal. I also understand DC's standpoint, Wonder Woman wears a one piece that basically exposes both her breasts and her butt, and i'm not too proud to say that as man i find that sexy. Suddenly Wonder Woman is wearing a jacket, and pants, the huge amount of sex appeal that she held is now gone, and the boys will stop buying it, because Wonder Woman just isn't as you have pointed out well written enough to stand out from the sex appeal that demands our attention. What Wonder Woman needs is a good powerful writer to make her the truly potent and amazing character she deserves to be, once she has been well defined, then and only then can DC create a new less revealing costume for Wonder Woman(and though many a fan boys will still rage) and still expect sales from die hard fans of the character not the sex symbol.

#7 Posted by Gylan Thomas (2727 posts) - - Show Bio

To be fair most of Superman and Batmans costume changes haven't strayed too far from the classic look where as Wonder Womans trousered look was a big change.

#8 Posted by MrDirector786 (43552 posts) - - Show Bio

@deadpoolwins:) said:

I find your thought process to be near point, but slightly off. While Wonder Woman is not that well defined of a character i think the truth of the matter is "sex sells" lets face it more men read comics then woman, and seeing the half naked Wonder Woman run around is sexy. Wonder Woman as a character has been based around her sex appeal, and i feel as though the character itself might not have made it as long as she if she didn't have drooling fan boys. Wonder Woman cant have a costume change simply because all the fan boys don't want her to loose that sex appeal. I also understand DC's standpoint, Wonder Woman wears a one piece that basically exposes both her breasts and her butt, and i'm not too proud to say that as man i find that sexy. Suddenly Wonder Woman is wearing a jacket, and pants, the huge amount of sex appeal that she held is now gone, and the boys will stop buying it, because Wonder Woman just isn't as you have pointed out well written enough to stand out from the sex appeal that demands our attention. What Wonder Woman needs is a good powerful writer to make her the truly potent and amazing character she deserves to be, once she has been well defined, then and only then can DC create a new less revealing costume for Wonder Woman(and though many a fan boys will still rage) and still expect sales from die hard fans of the character not the sex symbol.

I think this post has a lot of truth to it.

#9 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@deadpoolwins:) said:

I find your thought process to be near point, but slightly off. While Wonder Woman is not that well defined of a character i think the truth of the matter is "sex sells" lets face it more men read comics then woman, and seeing the half naked Wonder Woman run around is sexy. Wonder Woman as a character has been based around her sex appeal, and i feel as though the character itself might not have made it as long as she if she didn't have drooling fan boys. Wonder Woman cant have a costume change simply because all the fan boys don't want her to loose that sex appeal. I also understand DC's standpoint, Wonder Woman wears a one piece that basically exposes both her breasts and her butt, and i'm not too proud to say that as man i find that sexy. Suddenly Wonder Woman is wearing a jacket, and pants, the huge amount of sex appeal that she held is now gone, and the boys will stop buying it, because Wonder Woman just isn't as you have pointed out well written enough to stand out from the sex appeal that demands our attention. What Wonder Woman needs is a good powerful writer to make her the truly potent and amazing character she deserves to be, once she has been well defined, then and only then can DC create a new less revealing costume for Wonder Woman(and though many a fan boys will still rage) and still expect sales from die hard fans of the character not the sex symbol.

I had nothing against the pants (for Wonder-Woman that is, Zatanna without her classic magician costume is just overzealous nonsense), except black is not a Wonder-Woman color.

The leather jacket however was completely ridiculous and it has little to nothing to do with sex-appeal. It just looked off and completely dated, something she had already done in the 90's and that most characters stopped wearing around the year 2000 (looking at you Wonder Girl and Superboy).

#10 Posted by jubilee042 (1353 posts) - - Show Bio

She never asked for one.

#11 Posted by Deep_shock (18 posts) - - Show Bio

Because the late Jim Lee designs are ridiculous?

#12 Posted by sethysquare (3843 posts) - - Show Bio
Great article and absolutely the point. I find lots of "female oriented sites" crying out for women to be treated equally yet hurls hateful post at the updating of female costume. Hypocrites.
#13 Edited by Adnan (1037 posts) - - Show Bio
@Billy Batson said:

Because people are used to the norm.

BB

This, as far as I can tell anyway. The comicbookresources forums went completely nuts when WW's DCnU design involved pants. It was hilarious.
 
Anyways, it's not too bad (not great either, imo) when she's fighting mythological stuff like she currently is in her own series, but it looks really weird when she's fighting on the streets. Frankly, she looks like a lost stripper trying to make her way back to the bondage club. Same could be said for a lot of designs though, I suppose.
 
I really like Carol's new design, btw. Still has sex appeal, but she actually looks serious at the same time now.
 
edit: And awesome avatar, dude. I'm looking forward to Colliders as well.
#14 Edited by Agent_November (53 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarthShap said:

Take a good look at Superman or Batman's original, 1930s costumes. They're completely different from either their current incarnation or even what most consider their "classic" looks. Now look at Wonder Woman's. In sixty years, not one stitch is different.

First of all, that is completely false. Exactly like other two, the only thing that really changed was the texture (details and colors).

Putting aside her BDSM-laden origin, (ah, phrases you only hear in comics) which was also titanically sexist, what defines Wonder Woman that doesn't define a myriad of other heroes? Determination? Easily the most generic personality trait to ascribe to a superhero. Caring? Is she? She's often portrayed much more as a militaristic-minded, hardened fighter.

The bondage stuff was sexist but the rest of original run was actually way more feminist than what we get now. The Amazons were a feminist utopia. Now, they are your usual barbaric misogynistic cliche and the compassionate nature of Wonder-Woman that made her the hero she is no longer makes any sense.

Firstly, Batman's original costume had a Da Vinci style glider strapped to his back, and his gloves were purple and not "barbed". Secondly I fail to see how a utopia, acheived though magic, plot convinience and the exclusion of males is "feminist". And thirdly the war-like and misogynist amazons are actually closer to the original myths, and could (in the hands of the right author) be used to reinforce Diana's compassionate nature, so instead of being the paragon of truth from a "perfect" society to a paragon from an imperfect one.

#15 Edited by FoxxFireArt (3554 posts) - - Show Bio

The fault I believe lies in two places. Both in the publisher and the readers.

Lets face it, humans tend to get bored with the same old thing all the time. If we're just seeing the same thing day in and out. It can be nice to see a sudden change. But anyone who has dealt with groups of people also knows that they are fickle as $%!@. They demand change, but then soon want back what they originally had.

Readers are also partly to blame for why nothing ever changes. It's because the readers wont allow things to change. Look at Superman. He's a broken and seriously overpowered character. You have to go to ridiculous lengths just to make a villain that's a credible threat. And once defeated, how to you then top that for the next story? Though, if you dare touch Superman's powers. The readers cry blasphemy. Many agree that he's too powerful, then wont accept any change. It's the reader fighting the idea of fixing what they know is broken. They cling to the past like a cat in water.

It's also the publisher's fault for feeding these tantrums. They are in a near constant state of change for the sake of change and not story. Then just as people are adjusting to change, the publisher changes everything back to the way it started. It always gives the impression to readers that change is pointless, because it's just going to be put back soon. Look also at the way DC published WONDER WOMAN, Remember in her last series where the comic was in the 30s then suddenly jumped to 600. That's a prime example. Who was that for?

It also doesn't help that when anyone tries to redesign costumes they go in utterly stupid directions. I didn't have a problem with the Wonder Woman pants costume. I had a problem with that ridiculous rolled up leather jacket. Someone needs to tell Jim Lee that went out in the 90s. Then we have the TV show costume that looked like a porno parody.

I personally like it when Wonder Woman's costume has themes of Greek design. It doesn't have to look like it's out of ancient Greece, but it could be based on something from the mythology.

The more reasonable thing to do is to have different designs for Wonder Woman that depend on the environment she's traveling to but has the same basic themes. If she's going somewhere cold, give her more coverage. When it's warmer, lean more toward tradition. Any reasonable warrior is going to know that you dress to your surroundings.

#16 Posted by SylentEcho (58 posts) - - Show Bio

People just want to see her cleavage and her legs. End of. :p

#17 Posted by tamabone (119 posts) - - Show Bio

Wonder Woman's "classic" look is not her "original" look either.  In her first appearance she hads a skirt, sandals, and an eagle on her chest.  Over time the skirt became shorts, the sandals changed to boots, and the eagle morphed into a double W.  "Classic" looks are special to every long tome character and reader, because they represent the norm/status quo of the character.  Everyone knows that no matter how crazy a story goes the character will always return to their norm/status quo.  Spider-Man may change into a black costume for a long while, but eventually he will be back in the red and blue webbed costume becauase that is the norm/status quo of the character.   

When a character is radicaly changed, such as being rebooted, readers need something old to hang on to.  Something that makes them feel "They changed everything but at least he/she still looks the same."  They need something to make them believe that eventually the status quo will be restored.  Over time the new aspects may filter into the accepted norm/status quo.  Superman's reboot under John Byrne would not have worked if the costume was changed along with Superman's power level.  George Perez's reboot of Wonder Woman changet almost everything about her Pre-Crisis backstory, but because the readers still had the same visual of Wonder Woman they were more ready to accept the polt changes.   
 
With this current reboot of Wonder Woman her history has been changed (Zeus is her father, PLEASE) aand her costume.  There is no sense of "this is the character that I love".  All that is the same is the name.  Over time as readers become more invested in the plot changes made to the character a costume evolution will become possible. 

#18 Posted by DonJack (15 posts) - - Show Bio

It's quite simple: Lynda Carter totally defines Wonder Woman

now, as for the costume, you got to be kidding me

the number of modifications on her costume are in the same level of the modifications on Batman and Superman costumes

yet, I don't bother with big modifications if looks cool

#19 Posted by Wowlock (218 posts) - - Show Bio

A character's look is as important as his/her personal traits.

Once you get used to a character in certain setup ( like Batman and his Cape/Cowl with Bat symbol on his chest) it will define him more since it is the first Visual detection you get from that character. In comics, arts and visual have a huge part in the investing process.

Supes didn't change drastically, neither his costume... hell , aside from the alternate worlds , the most recent '' Touch and change '' Kryptonian armor Supes has can be one of the most different from his usual setup.

As for WW , for her stories to be memorable , they must have some sort of relativity to the reader. I don't say they are bad in any sense but you can feel the stories of Batman and those memorable ones while with WW you see a warrior-princess fighting with Gods from the Myths and you can't really relate to that.

Even Supes is more ''humanistic'' at his core. It is , as you said, quite hard to produce a great story for a seemingly inpenetrable hero like Supes but when you do , like Death of Superman for example , you can the emotional payoff well.

As of now, WW's most ''Iconic Trait'' is her looks before they changed her past significantly ( not for the better IMO ). She is now a Demi-god , her ''society'' is a barbaric race of feminists and she lost her unique qualities of being this '' passionate woman of virtue....struggling in the world of Man and Gods as being born of Clay and Magic '' by losing her background.

I have to say, I get a feeling that WW now combined with the story of Wonder Girl ( Cassie ) as she was the Daughter of Zeus in the first place.

Soo no, these ''reboots'' doesn't help her being 'Iconic' other than her appearance , IMHO. It is sad that we cannot name an epic story of hers and those who actually like her, try to cling on to the things they know about her before she is turn into some other character because if it wasn't for her looks, with the current background of hers, I would say she is a different character.

#20 Posted by herrweis (433 posts) - - Show Bio

i have often thought that the powers that be at DC just plain out dont like her,period.her cartoon dvd is the 4th best selling out of their str8 to dvd animated movies.sold way better than both green lantern movirs(almost as much as both put together)and they tell us she didnt "sell enough" to get a second one which is obviously bull.and she has had tons of great stories that define her ,challenge of the gods,gods of gotham,land of the dead.any story arc from perez,jimmenez or ruckas run all give us a clear perception of her and who she is.her fans get so up in arms about her costum changes because the costume is ICONIC(hello),which is why the costumes of superman and batman have not changed much (not sure why its said that they are different from the original).and also DC twisted thinking that just changing her costume will ultimately lead to bigger sales,instead of actual promotion.im sure NOW they see that when u put her with a good writer and artist(which has been done b4)and actually promote it(which is done now and not b4)and low and behold she sells.what a concept.but her costume has changed more than batman or superman.as long as they dont make her look stupid most fans dont mind a tweeking of the costume.but long pants with a hooker choker and a jacket left over from 1989 looks freakin dumb.

#21 Posted by cbishop (8180 posts) - - Show Bio

Wonder Woman has had a nickname in the past, but it hasn't stuck in recent years. She used to be referred to as "The Amazing Amazon."

She's sorely in need of a costume redesign, because the American, sort of flag themed costume only made sense in the era of World War II. She's from an island that worships Greek Gods - there's really no need for the stars on her shorts. ...Unless there's something about her story that makes America that important to her. Did she choose to become a naturalized citizen, and show her patriotism with this costume?

It's pretty much the appearance thing. If you take away the red, white and blue, she's revealed as a pretty flat character. I think that shouldn't be so, but mostly, it is. She definitely needs to be better defined as a character.

Online
#22 Posted by RazzaTazz (9638 posts) - - Show Bio

 
 I am not sure that I agree factually with some of the statements made here.  Wonder Woman's early years were not really very BDSM related, yes Marston advocated it, but if you read the earliest issues (and I have read them all) there is not really all that much tying up of people.  Also Diana has had the most extreme costume changes as opposed to Batman and Superman, just they didnt stick.  There was the 1960s mod girl outfit, the 1990s bad girl outfit.  These didn't stick, but then neither did the electricity style Superman.  I think what this goes  back to more so is that what we know of comics today come from roots more so in the 1960s and 1970s as before then most titles really were kids books and gradually since then they have a lot more depth.  Most of the modern characters which we know come from this point, either as reconfigured or imagined right there in the 60s and 70s.  In terms of how Batman and Superman have changed, I would say that Wonder Woman has changed almost as much, as she no longer wears a skirt or sandals or big gaudy earrings.  I think there is some truth in what others say as well that it has to do with the representation of the character.  Superman is strength so if he were to wear something else fans would revolt.  Batman represents darkness so if he wore a rainbow based suit, fans would revolt.  Wonder Woman represents a degree of sexiness and therefore that part has to remain as part of her past.   
 
I am not sure about that part about story arcs either.  I can name very few story arcs about Batman and none about Superman, yet a bunch about Wonder Woman, so I am not sure how her costume is all she has in comparison.  

Moderator
#23 Posted by Planewalker (326 posts) - - Show Bio

I just wanna say I for one hated with a vengeance when Jim Lee went back and return her shorts, seeing her fight in bathing suit is utterly ridiculous.

#24 Posted by DonJack (15 posts) - - Show Bio

when the post says that superman has changed a lot, I imagined Kal-El with green shorts, black t-shirt and a mohawk

#25 Posted by DrewHLMW (53 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see why superheroes cant have multiple costumes, you dont go out everyday in the same clothes so why go out everyday in the same costume, how much of a hassle is it to wash it every night and have it dried by morning.

I call for multiple costumes for all super heroes.

#26 Posted by DonJack (15 posts) - - Show Bio

because they are costumes, not simple clothes

#27 Posted by Joe Venom (1275 posts) - - Show Bio

Typical female, taking forever to pick something to wear xD

#28 Posted by jhazzroucher (15757 posts) - - Show Bio

Ororo Munroe Storm takes this department. . She can be bald, mohawk, long hair, curly hair, different costumes, etc. love it all.

BUt i kinda didn't like her look in the current Ultimate Comics: X-Men issues

#29 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@Agent_November said:

@DarthShap said:

Take a good look at Superman or Batman's original, 1930s costumes. They're completely different from either their current incarnation or even what most consider their "classic" looks. Now look at Wonder Woman's. In sixty years, not one stitch is different.

First of all, that is completely false. Exactly like other two, the only thing that really changed was the texture (details and colors).

Putting aside her BDSM-laden origin, (ah, phrases you only hear in comics) which was also titanically sexist, what defines Wonder Woman that doesn't define a myriad of other heroes? Determination? Easily the most generic personality trait to ascribe to a superhero. Caring? Is she? She's often portrayed much more as a militaristic-minded, hardened fighter.

The bondage stuff was sexist but the rest of original run was actually way more feminist than what we get now. The Amazons were a feminist utopia. Now, they are your usual barbaric misogynistic cliche and the compassionate nature of Wonder-Woman that made her the hero she is no longer makes any sense.

Firstly, Batman's original costume had a Da Vinci style glider strapped to his back, and his gloves were purple and not "barbed". Secondly I fail to see how a utopia, acheived though magic, plot convinience and the exclusion of males is "feminist". And thirdly the war-like and misogynist amazons are actually closer to the original myths, and could (in the hands of the right author) be used to reinforce Diana's compassionate nature, so instead of being the paragon of truth from a "perfect" society to a paragon from an imperfect one.

The glider was just one out of many gadgets he sometimes used and I mentioned colours for the purple gloves and not just that, the underwear lost its colour and a most of the time, Batman was more blue than black.

You apparently know nothing about the original amazons of the very feminist William Moulton Marston. Look it up.

And the "closer to the myths" argument is ridiculous in a world where Hades is a child with candles on his head and no wife (in the Myths, he is your regular adult and Persephone is the love of his life). Azzarello is not forced into anything, he chose to change the Amazons of the comics. And no, it does not make any sense that someone coming from that culture where men do not deserve to live would only discover it now and be that compassionate towards them. Superman got his values from Ma & Pa. Had he lived with two hateful people, completely cut off from any exterior influence, he would not have turn out the same.

#30 Posted by feargalr (1163 posts) - - Show Bio

Hmm very interesting article.

#31 Posted by davidgrantlloyd (346 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually, I'd argue that Wonder Woman New 52 costume is 'altered slightly' from the 'classic' design. (ie silver instead of gold, less stars on the undies, black boots, carries a sword). Also in some of her early golden age comics she wore a skirt.

Regarding Batman and Superman and their latest costumes, they too are similar, just slightly different.

And there has been quite a bit of outcry regarding the changes to Superman's costume (I don't know why, I think it's cool) so think there's always a bit of division whenever an iconic charcter is slightly tweaked.

#32 Edited by Fantasgasmic (1071 posts) - - Show Bio
They're completely different from either their current incarnation or even what most consider their "classic" looks

Are you on drugs? Here's the quick infographic of every major Batman costume ever. They don't look all that different to me.

edit: expanded version here.

#33 Posted by redbird3rdboywonder (4034 posts) - - Show Bio

Lets face it Im fairy new to comics and even I already now that almost if not all comic fans are FICKLE. Dont get me wrong they are many many comic fans who welcome change with open arms such as Static for example, but for every one fan who welcomes change there are 5 more who are completely fickle. Take for example the whole thing with Starfire I saw many many post from fans of hers who were just about ready to declare war on Lobdell but now I bet some of those same fans will tell you that they love Star in Red Hood's book. Now with that being said I dont really like Carol's new look well just the hair anyway as it makes her look like a him. The WW costume i like the most is ffrom the JLU cartoon and it was that of WW's evil counterpart Justice Lord's WW. I think the costume shown their should be her replacement costume including the hair cut as wll as I feel it really stuck and made WW look more mature

#34 Posted by Superguy1591 (3371 posts) - - Show Bio

I love Wonder Woman, between her and Superman, they would be my two favorites heroes of all-time. I wish that one day DC would put them together and have them make the greatest superhero offspring in comicdom, but that's a different story. What always makes me sad is seeing such an iconic character, the most iconic female character in the comics, dressed like a two dollar whore attending a WW2 USO show. So many of this character's mythology needs to be scraped and updated. Wonder Woman having an invisible plane when she can fly is silly. Wonder Woman wearing a bathing suit when she's not invulnerable like Superman is silly, sure her bracelets protect her from projectiles, but against a sword she's vulnerable and in danger.

She needs a good battle armor like what she's wearing now in her 52s title and what she's wearing in the Earth-2 comics to look respectable. Some of the most ridiculous justifications for the bathing suit is that battle armor is too clunky, it would hinder Wonder Woman in a fight. My question to these people is that, then why isn't Batman fighting in speedos? DC needs to grow a pair and stop listening to idiotic fan-boys, if they're real WW fans they would buy the books regardless of what she wears. The ones who whine about the character not wearing a bathing suit probably don't read the book at all. Honestly, who ever picked up a WW comic because a DRAWING is in a bathing suit? How sad are you that that's what gets you off?

DC needs to learn how to be bold and do what they believe is best for the characters and not what idiotic fan-boys call for. They'll get over it, just keep the characters relevant and updated.

#35 Edited by Grimoire (543 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarthShap said:

@Agent_November said:

@DarthShap said:

Take a good look at Superman or Batman's original, 1930s costumes. They're completely different from either their current incarnation or even what most consider their "classic" looks. Now look at Wonder Woman's. In sixty years, not one stitch is different.

First of all, that is completely false. Exactly like other two, the only thing that really changed was the texture (details and colors).

Putting aside her BDSM-laden origin, (ah, phrases you only hear in comics) which was also titanically sexist, what defines Wonder Woman that doesn't define a myriad of other heroes? Determination? Easily the most generic personality trait to ascribe to a superhero. Caring? Is she? She's often portrayed much more as a militaristic-minded, hardened fighter.

The bondage stuff was sexist but the rest of original run was actually way more feminist than what we get now. The Amazons were a feminist utopia. Now, they are your usual barbaric misogynistic cliche and the compassionate nature of Wonder-Woman that made her the hero she is no longer makes any sense.

Firstly, Batman's original costume had a Da Vinci style glider strapped to his back, and his gloves were purple and not "barbed". Secondly I fail to see how a utopia, acheived though magic, plot convinience and the exclusion of males is "feminist". And thirdly the war-like and misogynist amazons are actually closer to the original myths, and could (in the hands of the right author) be used to reinforce Diana's compassionate nature, so instead of being the paragon of truth from a "perfect" society to a paragon from an imperfect one.

The glider was just one out of many gadgets he sometimes used and I mentioned colours for the purple gloves and not just that, the underwear lost its colour and a most of the time, Batman was more blue than black.

You apparently know nothing about the original amazons of the very feminist William Moulton Marston. Look it up.

And the "closer to the myths" argument is ridiculous in a world where Hades is a child with candles on his head and no wife (in the Myths, he is your regular adult and Persephone is the love of his life). Azzarello is not forced into anything, he chose to change the Amazons of the comics. And no, it does not make any sense that someone coming from that culture where men do not deserve to live would only discover it now and be that compassionate towards them. Superman got his values from Ma & Pa. Had he lived with two hateful people, completely cut off from any exterior influence, he would not have turn out the same.

Then what would make Wonder Woman unique from the other amazons if not for her compassion and not judging and entire gender based on the bad experiences they once had with them thousands of years ago then and want to continue to do so? Where would the starting point be? She finally went along with her sisters on one of their rape trips (Read the actual myths and this is true point in the stories.) and decided she wasn't a love him and leave/kill him type so she boldly leaves her whole family for the sense of adventure in a world half covered with males?

I believe the Greek Gods still have the ability to change the way the look anyways. lol

In the new 52 also Ma and Pa Kent are dead and yet they have him being a hero when he grew up. This goes with the whole "nature" vs "nurture" argument and my opinion is that at the very core of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman they are heroes no matter where they grew up and anything besides an elseworlds storyline proves that. lol

#36 Posted by red_rover (96 posts) - - Show Bio

Let's see Batman in some shorts and see how that goes. Maybe it's hot out.

Great article and discussion in the comments. This shows the strength of the community.

#37 Posted by zackattack529 (1404 posts) - - Show Bio

well knowing brian azzarelo im sure he'll make significant changes in the near future..maybe hepeastus makes her new suit or something.

but her current suit really doesnt need change. its not necessary. as long as the essentials are present i.e the laso, the tiara, the blue and red attire with the star. etc.

#38 Posted by Band Lone (1789 posts) - - Show Bio

Because men admire her original costume and girls like the sense of freedom that her costume been expose brings to the picture? :)

Ok ok is because most of the artist are guys who love playboy and drawing semi-naked girls xD

#39 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@Grimoire said:

Then what would make Wonder Woman unique from the other amazons if not for her compassion and not judging and entire gender based on the bad experiences they once had with them thousands of years ago then and want to continue to do so? Where would the starting point be? She finally went along with her sisters on one of their rape trips (Read the actual myths and this is true point in the stories.) and decided she wasn't a love him and leave/kill him type so she boldly leaves her whole family for the sense of adventure in a world half covered with males?

In the new 52 also Ma and Pa Kent are dead and yet they have him being a hero when he grew up. This goes with the whole "nature" vs "nurture" argument and my opinion is that at the very core of Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman they are heroes no matter where they grew up and anything besides an elseworlds storyline proves that. lol

That is not the point. Your reasoning starts with the Amazons being barbaric which just does not make any sense. And again, the "closer to the myth" argument is BS if Azzarello is not going to respect the most basic things like the existence of Persephone, Hades' wife.

Superman still being Superman makes sense because he still spent the first 20 years of his life with two of the most compassionate people of Earth. That they are dead does not change a thing.

Now if I was raised in Kony's legions, chances are I would not turn out so good and that is not even the best example because those kids have had prior education from their parents and still have some kind of access to the outside world. Wonder-Woman had none of those. If an entire culture is based upon the values that men do not deserve to live and are only good for two things, sperm and arms trade, there is no reason for it to be hidden, on the contrary you should teach it to the children as soon as possible. So that already does not make sense. On top of that, there is no reason for Diana to be compassionate towards them if she was raised by those people and again, had no exterior influence.

#40 Posted by the_fallen11 (636 posts) - - Show Bio

@deadpoolwins:) said:

I find your thought process to be near point, but slightly off. While Wonder Woman is not that well defined of a character i think the truth of the matter is "sex sells" lets face it more men read comics then woman, and seeing the half naked Wonder Woman run around is sexy. Wonder Woman as a character has been based around her sex appeal, and i feel as though the character itself might not have made it as long as she if she didn't have drooling fan boys. Wonder Woman cant have a costume change simply because all the fan boys don't want her to loose that sex appeal. I also understand DC's standpoint, Wonder Woman wears a one piece that basically exposes both her breasts and her butt, and i'm not too proud to say that as man i find that sexy. Suddenly Wonder Woman is wearing a jacket, and pants, the huge amount of sex appeal that she held is now gone, and the boys will stop buying it, because Wonder Woman just isn't as you have pointed out well written enough to stand out from the sex appeal that demands our attention. What Wonder Woman needs is a good powerful writer to make her the truly potent and amazing character she deserves to be, once she has been well defined, then and only then can DC create a new less revealing costume for Wonder Woman(and though many a fan boys will still rage) and still expect sales from die hard fans of the character not the sex symbol.

so much this

#41 Edited by GothamRed (2563 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd say it's generally because while batman and superman have changed, it hasn't changed all that much in the, sure there have been leaps in change, but it's always been recognizable, and the same is basically true for wonder woman just less so. However if you change too much, you risk the loss of iconography and the hero becomes unrecognizable. While change isn't necessarily bad, it will always run risks of losing people when it changes too much. It'd be like inverting the red and yellow on supes's costume, it's a major enough change that there'd likely be complaints, even if the change is with the best of intentions.

#42 Posted by Mandrewgora (296 posts) - - Show Bio

am I the only one that liked that jacket she had?

#43 Posted by Lunacyde (19050 posts) - - Show Bio

I fail to see how either Superman or Batman's 1930's costumes were radically different. They have all the same main components.

#44 Posted by Superguy1591 (3371 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarthShap: But Brain Azzarello hasn't explained why Diana doesn't know about the Slave trade, rape and genocide that the Amazons practice. Diana has been kept in the dark about it like she was kept in the dark about the fact that she's Zeus' daughter. And just because you were brought up by someone to be a certain way, it doesn't mean that you'll turn out to be the same. Kids rebel, Diana rebelled. She chose to live among men because she didn't want to experience the world through her mother's words.

There are clearly certain things that Hipolytta kept in the dark from her daughter. And they're right, Azzarello's Amazons are more closely in touch with the Greek Myths. They were a group of warrior women who only used men for procreation and arms trade. They worshiped only the female gods and hated the males. They were radical feminists, that's what they were. And for pete's sake, let Azzarello tell his story. What if he introduces Persephone in the next book? Why are you so impatient?

#45 Posted by RazzaTazz (9638 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think the comparison to Carol is accurate either.  She has gone years without her own series, whereas Diana has gone months without one of hers

Moderator
#46 Posted by Fuchsia_Nightingale (10180 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not gonna get into this whole sex sells and jazz....

But Establish big time characters costumes hardly have major changes case in point, Superman loses his belt, or has that gold emblem on his cape. Batman goes from blue to black and a bunch of Bat symbols .

You only get a costume when you die. Black suit Superman, Super Soldier Steve and didn't Thor die and change costumes ?

Look I didn't think a jacket and pants mattered, it get's cold at Paradise island.

WHAT I THINK ITs REALLY IS ALL ABOUT !

Maturity, I don't wanna paint us all with the same brush, but comic fans are pretty opened minded, progressive bunch of cats, the creators didn't think a costume change in 2010 would be a big deal. you can either go"oh that's new, idk how I feel about it,..." or

THIS SUCKS !!!!!!!!!! hjafjsjdhajdhah

*starts to write a 500 word essay on why it sucks*

#47 Posted by charlieboy (7160 posts) - - Show Bio

yeah i really don't think superman and batman's costumes have changed much more than diana's.. and the there have been many awesome runs on ww. perez and jiminez come to mind. to me diana is a fairly well defined character. and i don' think her outfit is all that she has. and i personally hate carol danver's new outfit.

#48 Posted by DarthShap (875 posts) - - Show Bio

@Superguy1591 said:

But Brain Azzarello hasn't explained why Diana doesn't know about the Slave trade, rape and genocide that the Amazons practice. Diana has been kept in the dark about it like she was kept in the dark about the fact that she's Zeus' daughter.

So your defense is that it is a plot hole? ^^

@Superguy1591 said:

And just because you were brought up by someone to be a certain way, it doesn't mean that you'll turn out to be the same. Kids rebel, Diana rebelled. She chose to live among men because she didn't want to experience the world through her mother's words.

Of course you do not have to become who your parents are but that is because you are influenced by other people, other ideas. Diana does not have that.

And again, new plot hole, we still do not know why she left for man's world. Pre-reboot she was their ambassador and preached for peace. I doubt it is still the case but nothing is explained and it makes even less sense.

@Superguy1591 said:

There are clearly certain things that Hipolytta kept in the dark from her daughter. And they're right, Azzarello's Amazons are more closely in touch with the Greek Myths. They were a group of warrior women who only used men for procreation and arms trade. They worshiped only the female gods and hated the males.

Of course they are closer to the myths but it is not like Azzarello was forced into it. He chose to do so and it just creates so many plot holes. There is absolutely no reason why the Amazons would not teach their children their values, especially if they plan to have them kill men and abandon their children later in their lives.

@Superguy1591 said:

. And for pete's sake, let Azzarello tell his story. What if he introduces Persephone in the next book? Why are you so impatient?

Because the last issue, Hades wanted to marry either Hera or Wonder-Woman apparently, which does not make any sense.

#49 Posted by DocFatalis (1419 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually never thought that there were 3 big DC characters. That's also probably why there are so many Superman Batman stories and so little Wonder Woman whoever stories. Not a fascinating character at all.

I suspect DC suffers from a lack of writers actually apt to produce quality female characters.

They don't have to worry too much though: Storm is one of the most boring characters of the comicverse and yet Marvel keeps on using it once in a while just changing the occasional haircut or accessory. There probably is a category of fans for hollow female characters who fancy the costume change. Playing Barbie?

#50 Posted by RedheadedAtrocitus (6885 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not opposed to her having a new costume at all. To be honest I think I was one of the few that came out and said I actually LIKED the way Diana looked in the coat and pants look during her Odyssey storyline. I think the issue of why its hard for others to accept changes on her is that it still boils down to a question of how a look becomes iconic. Pretty much the look that has become iconic for us is Diana's Bronze Age/Modern Age look, just as the iconic look of Supes is like you mentioned the Silver Age incarnation and Bats the Neal Adams look. In other words, all looks are valid but I think, to more or less steal the phrase of George Orwell to an extent, "some looks are more valid than others." For me, I think her look was the best whenever Adam Hughes draws her, but that's also just my opinion. When it comes down to looks, people can be picky, and in the case of Diana people more or less have already determined how they want her to look.

This edit will also create new pages on Comic Vine for:

Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

Comment and Save

Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Comic Vine users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.