@SmashBrawler said:

@4_color_image said:

@SmashBrawler said:

@4_color_image: Wonder Woman's current run >>>>>>>> Aquaman's current run.

In January Aquaman was #22 while Wonder Woman was #51

1. Currently, Geoff Johns sells.
2. Currently, Wonder Woman doesn't.
3. Sales mean nothing.

Tell that to the titles that have been canceled...

@Power_Guy: I know I'd said I'd bow out but allow me to clear one thing up. If we assume that you get your petition together, gather enough support and signatures, send it off to DC and miraculously get a second Wonder Woman series on the shelf which totally outsells Azarello's series so that it's cancelled, I'd just buy that instead. The thing you've misinterpreted about my stance on Azarello is that I'm a Wonder Woman fan, not just an Azarello fan. Azarello may have gotten me majorly interested in the character to bump her from being my 9th favourite hero to my 6th favourite hero but I also greatly love the Post Crisis work Perez, Rucka and Simone have done with the character. I have a few post crisis WW comics myself and before being the series loved her appearance in JLA.

I do love what Azarello is doing with the character but if DC put out another superhero centric title, I'd buy that too if it replaced Azarello in quality of story telling. But the fact is that being a fellow Wonder Woman fan, you should know that DC don't put her front and centre anymore. Green Lantern is slowly edging her out in terms of what DC put their promotional focus on and sales for Wonder Woman comics aren't the best. They were slipping under the radar with JMS' post crisis mess and Azarello's are dropping too. Hence why I decided to replace Wonder Woman for Justice League in my pull list.

@Lvenger: Good points, but DC in the past 10 years has done some majorly stupid things to WW, just when she was slowly getting some fan recognition. Rucka was making the character really work, and you could see in every page of Ruckas run how much he loved the character. Sales went up on her comic, to the best they have since Perez. So what do DC do in all there infinite wisdom; they force their best and most impassioned WW writer to quit by, promising him he can write WW Earth One, then Didio takes it away from him and gives the project to Morrison instead. Why? Could they not both have put out WW graphics. strike 1. then Simone does a pretty good job after a series of failures, gets the book on the right direction again, and then out of nowhere they decide to do some weird arse JMS reboot. Strike 2. Then they put out an animated movie, the first in several years of the character, which is great and well-received, but because it doesn´t sell immediately, they decide to not put out another female-lead animation again. Even though since it has gone on to be the fourth biggest selling title of DC. Added to that, since the animation was so good, it brought in a new fanbase who like the characterization in the animated film; so what do DC do to capitalize on this new found interest, they put out yet another reboot, that is about as far from the animated film, and most successful runs of the character as you can get. Strike 3.

Whether you like Azz WW or not you´ve got to admit, all of this is pretty fucking stupid on DC´s part.

As for your point about Green Lantern

The fact is Green Lantern will always be a comicbook fan fav, he does not appeal to a broader general public the way Superman, Batman and WW do. Hence the failure of his animated series and his film. There is a reason those 3 are the big 3 and DC have to realize that. Its their stories are iconic, meaningful, and inspiring. All for different reasons, but nonetheless that is true. I´m not bashing GL, but his story and mythology just isn´t on the same level as WW. Comic fans are mainly male, thats why WW has a tough time in the comic market, but to a general audience her story has proven time and time again to be very appealing, and capture their imaginations. Hence the success of the 70's show and her animated film.

As for her comics, I honestly think raising her profile more in the media, live action or animated, will gradually raise her sales. Why? Because future generations of writers will be familiar with her story, inspired by it and will grow up wanting to write her; rather than this generation, who seem interested mainly in Superman and Batman, cause they grew up watching them. Are therefore familiar with every aspect of their mythology and as such can give their characters consistency. Look at Mark Waid, he said he became a comic writer cause of The Superman movie, he knew as soon as he saw it that one day he wanted to write Superman. Its that kind of passion WW needs, people who love her story and want to tell it in a new relevant way. Once that happens on a more consistent basis her sales will eventually increase.

However until that day when we finally see a good version of her on the big screen, the best they can do for WW is give her some consistency and care.

@4_color_image said:

@SmashBrawler said:

@4_color_image said:

@SmashBrawler said:

@4_color_image: Wonder Woman's current run >>>>>>>> Aquaman's current run.

In January Aquaman was #22 while Wonder Woman was #51

1. Currently, Geoff Johns sells.
2. Currently, Wonder Woman doesn't.
3. Sales mean nothing.

Tell that to the titles that have been canceled...

Wait, I'm... not entirely sure what your point is now. I mean, yes, sales do matter, but they don't matter when it comes to a series' quality. I already gave two examples of an atrocious, godawful, horrible series that sold a lot, and a brilliant, amazing, fantastic series that didn't sell a dime.

How do you consider a decompressed and perverse story along with inconsistent art(even when Chiang draws the entire issue) to be good quality? This may be a decent story about the Olympians but it's not a good quality story about Wonder Woman IMO.

@SmashBrawler said:

@4_color_image said:

@SmashBrawler said:

@4_color_image said:

@SmashBrawler said:

@4_color_image: Wonder Woman's current run >>>>>>>> Aquaman's current run.

In January Aquaman was #22 while Wonder Woman was #51

1. Currently, Geoff Johns sells.
2. Currently, Wonder Woman doesn't.
3. Sales mean nothing.

Tell that to the titles that have been canceled...

Wait, I'm... not entirely sure what your point is now. I mean, yes, sales do matter, but they don't matter when it comes to a series' quality. I already gave two examples of an atrocious, godawful, horrible series that sold a lot, and a brilliant, amazing, fantastic series that didn't sell a dime.

My point is DC could put Lee, Johns or Morrison on Wonder Woman or Sensation Comics & it would sell like gangbusters but they will not. Lee is back on Superman, Johns does not 'get' Diana & Morrison is working on a =w= side project.

You guys, I'm confused about Ares :( Is the old man Ares from Azzy's run the New 52 version of the old, badass WW villain? Or is it a completely different character...?

They should publish Sensation Comics to root Wonder Woman into the DCnU while Azzarello keeps doing his own thing

@Press Oblivion said:

@Or35ti said:

They should publish Sensation Comics to root Wonder Woman into the DCnU while Azzarello keeps doing his own thing

love that idea!

This. Please!!!!

You are basically blaming Azzarello for telling good stories. I think it's Johns' WW who should be banished in some Elseworlds story to be honest.

Hi all, new to the forum... Just wanted to put my 2 cents in... I don't see how anyone can say the arguments against Azz's run are "weak" without opening their own arguments FOR it to be called the same thing... These are opinions, people. Everyone is entitled to theirs and for anyone to get mad about it... Well that just shows a bit of immaturity... IMHO

As to the subject at hand, Azz has rubbed me the wrong way from the start, and the crappy things he's done to tarnish a character I have loved for almost 25 years are unforgivable to me, and they far out-weigh the good, IMO... The fact that he won't use any of Diana's ACTUAL rogues or cast just shows how little he cared about continuing an established character rather than writing his own take on Greek mythology... Don't get me wrong, I love Greek myths, and if this book's title character were Hercules (which Azz has essentially turned WW into) or some other spawn of Zeus, and was a Vertigo title, I'd have definitely given it a shot... Granted, the ridiculous decompression woulda made me drop the title within the first 6 months, but that's an argument Azz fans just simply will not hear of... "He's so good, the payoff will be great, etc. etc. blah blah blah..."

To me, Azz was the wrong choice for the title... I'm glad she's getting all sorts of recognition now, but the cost has been very profound for me personally, and I know I'm not alone there.

I miss the Diana who was the product of her mother's pure love and desire for a child, who was raised by thousands of loving mothers in a tranquil, idealistic society of perfectly evolved women... All this "darkness" put into her title has just sorta left me waiting for the next reboot...

DC is afraid Azzarello will write her villains too well.

LOL! Nooooo no... This made me laugh sooo hard...

@press_oblivion:

the problem is the lack of action,there wouldn't be a problem with wonder woman dealing with gods and her own god side if she was doing something,you know,being the hero,but no,it took her 20 issues to have 2 fights and do something,instead of being the hero,the one that makes desitions and do something about the problems,she spends most of the time moving around,talking,flying from here to there,talking,gods together in a penhouse talking,then wonder woman in one apartment with a dysfunctional family talking and watching the baby,then random pictures of the first born and more talking,that's what we get most of the time,wonder woman seems like a sidekick in her own title,it takes way to long for something to happen,they only move one step into the story every 5 issues,and wonder woman is always the last one to do something relevant,it's ridiculous.

issue 20 was good,at least wonder woman did something there,i hope she gets the job done in the next 2 issues.

@smashbrawler:

the sales mean that nobody cares for wonder woman's new run anymore,she has had better sales than what she is having right now,i don't hate arazzello run,i just wish we could see wonder woman doing something,being the hero,most of the time she is caught up in the middle of a familly matter and doesn't do much about anything.

@rayray1127: I'm glad I made you laugh, however, I'm not quite sure if your laughing with my comment or at my comment. I'll just say it's all in good spirits.

@gokuwarrior: He needs to end this story and start a new.

Sadly,

This version of WW is not really WW. It is an interesting character that should be explored without the use of exploiting the WW name to do so. How many readers would have tried the book if this was an all new character under another unknown name?

Would fans of Superman or Batman be subjected to almost two years of those characters not facing their more classic rogues? No Joker, Catwoman, Lex, Brainiac.

It is not creative genius or long term intelligent to have two distinctly different versions of the same character running around in the same shared universe sans a multiple earth excuse.

Pre-52 fans will fight for changes to get WW some level of same respect given to Superman and Batman. They will do this because they have always done it, and it may take time but has always yielded results. These old, pre-52, pre-pants, pre-I Ching fans have successfully worked hard to keep WW on track.

Ain't no stopping us now!

That is also an integral part of WW history.

@lilben42:

he already did,in my mind wonder woman already defeated the olympians,taking off her bracelets she took many of them at the same time,hades and ares came to help to take down the rest of them,then she fought apollo,in a fight that left a mess all over the city,then she went head to head with the first born,but she was tired for the other fights,so her team came,brought her some time to heal herself,and they she took the first born away,they fought in a deserted island where they showed super strength,fought ast super speed,took damage and kept fighting,took damage and klept fighting,the island i destroyed by such an intencive fight,and finally she wins,the baby is saved,she reformed the olympus,zolla is able to start a new life with her baby,and wonder woman is able to bring her sisters back to life,it's better to enjoy the happy times now,.because a new evil is close,CIRCE!,my imagination never disappoints me,LOL.

@gokuwarrior: haha intriguing. I think after this arc she should have someone closer to mans world now like Cheetah or Dr. Psycho.

@lilben42:

who knows,cheetah needs a lot of great feats to gain the respect she deserves,she needs to be a badd ass not just in wonder woman's title,she needs to be a bad ass in other comics too,show that cheetah is a real powerhouse.

It is all in good spirits, my friend, as I would never take something said in a comic book forum personally and I wasn't trying to be insulting... However I will say that I respectfully disagree with your comment... Personally I'm not very impressed with Azzerello on Wonder Woman. I think many MANY other writers could have been approached who actually care about the character and her central themes and cast. As is, she's Lady Hercules fighting the Greek God of the month in the most ridiculously drawn out story line I've ever read... Maybe he's good at characters he invents, but IMHO, he should stay FAAAAR away from established characters... ESPECIALLY ones he's paid ZERO attention to before he started writing them!

"There's too much mythology, where are her classic rogues waaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh"

Oh no, Azz took a character rooted in Greek mythology and actually made her title about Greek mythology, and picked a new direction for the NEW 52. Blasphemy.

"She's not really Wonder Woman anymore! Those aren't the Amazons! They're not perfect enough to be the Amazons!"

Oh no, he took characters who have been champions of feminism and made them real, flawed people, thereby actually making them seem like real people and not paragons of female perfection. Cause that's the exact opposite of feminism right there.

"But the Wonder Woman in Justice League acts completely different!"

..... because she's being written by Geoff Johns, who admittedly has no f'ing idea what to do with the character.

"This story arc is too long!"

Because Scott Snyder never decompresses the hell out of his stories. And it's not like there haven't been subplots about Diana and Hades, Apollo taking over Olympus, the coming of Orion. Maybe, and this may be a stretch, but you never know, maybe the ending will actually have a lasting impact, unlike the endings of all of the decompressed Batman stories.

I'd be all for a second WW title focusing on more "modern" adventures, but first they need someone in charge who actually respects the character as one of the big 3.

@avengers_4everxx:

amazons don't need to look like real people because it was never the point,wonder woman was supposed to have some greek mythology influences,but making her a female hercules was never the ponit,wonder woman had struggles before,she didn't need the godly drama,the problem is the lack of action,there wouldn't be a problem with wonder woman dealing with gods and her own god side if she was doing something,you know,being the hero,but no,it took her 20 issues to have 2 fights and do something,instead of being the hero,the one that makes desitions and do something about the problems,she spends most of the time moving around,talking,flying from here to there,talking,gods together in a penhouse talking,then wonder woman in one apartment with a dysfunctional family talking and watching the baby,then random pictures of the first born and more talking,that's what we get most of the time,wonder woman seems like a sidekick in her own title,it takes way to long for something to happen,they only move one step into the story every 5 issues,and wonder woman is always the last one to do something relevant,it's ridiculous.

@gokuwarrior: You're underselling the action. There's two fights in the first two issues of the series. And you have a problem with talking when the dialogue is one of the many strengths of the book. It's witty, comic booky, yet really mature and immature at the same time. You don't appreciate the god drama when that's another strength, seeing how these wonderful and awful beings work with/against each other.

As for Wonder Woman doing something revelant. In issue #1 she saves Zola and Hermer while fighting two centaurs. She comes up with a plan to have the gods play against each other while she goes to sabotage Hera's plans. Diana goes into freaking Underworld and is supposed to marry Hades. She escapes and shoots him with a golden desert eagle! Later Diana fights against Apollo and Artemis and beats Artemis up bad, later she does it again. etc. etc. etc.

I agree that Azzarello isn't writing your typical superhero story or a typical Wonder Woman story. He changes history, tells unusual tales that perhaps run a bit too long but it's still some of the best stuff to come out of the reboot. The Wonder Woman Geoff Johns writes in Justice League is just atrocious.

Agreed

He is ignoring everything.

@gokuwarrior: Thank you for reiterating everything you already said in the forum and not making any new points towards your argument.. I didn't quite get it the first time. Also, I'm sorry you don't have the attention span to handle a story arc more than four issues? I'm starting to feel like you don't actually read this series, cause like, I just read straight through the first two trades of her series and it doesn't seem like you know what you're talking about? Diana really isn't the sidekick. At all. And there is a lot of action. The series hasn't at all been "Sit around, gods talking, look at pictures, dysfunctional family(also what do you even mean when you say that, like your argument actually makes no sense please explain what this means are you talking about the Olympians or WW's gang), WW is the last one to do anything". That isn't the pattern. The pattern has been Wonder Woman saves Zola, meets some gods, fights some gods/magical creatures, dastardly god scheme starts, WW comes up with a plan to stop WW stops it. What series are you reading? I'm reading Wonder Woman by Brian Azzarello

@avengers_4everxx:

she doesn't do anything relevant most of the time,she doesn't act like wonder woman,and there is a huge lack of action,she fought 2 miserable low level monstrers in the first issue,then nothing,she didn't have a good fight on her own untill issue 12,and then we had nothing until issue 20,the drama with the gods is already dated,she isn't hercules she is wonder woman,she has her villans,she has her own goals,she is not wonder nanny,she should be wonder woman,where are the amazons?,why they had to be men rapers and serial killers?,where is diana's supporting cast?,what does she do in the man's worlds?,how does she feel?,there isn't enough wonder woman in the title.

@bloggerboy:

the same that i said to the other user,she doesn't do anything relevant most of the time,she doesn't act like wonder woman,and there is a huge lack of action,she fought 2 miserable low level monstrers in the first issue,then nothing,she didn't have a good fight on her own untill issue 12,and then we had nothing until issue 20,the drama with the gods is already dated,she isn't hercules she is wonder woman,she has her villans,she has her own goals,she is not wonder nanny,she should be wonder woman,where are the amazons?,why they had to be men rapers and serial killers?,where is diana's supporting cast?,what does she do in the man's worlds?,how does she feel?,there isn't enough wonder woman in the title.

The book is focusing on the Olympians instead, and if you know anything about Greek Mythology, more often than not, the gods are their own worse enemy, all they do is f*ck and fight. Though, I will admit, this whole year long "Hunt for the Baby" arc is getting a bit old.

I'm sorry but I don't consider them to be "good" stories. I find them to be dark, perverse, and sexist. Azzarello is the head writer of Wonder Woman. Johns has to take queues on Diana from him don't blame Geoff for Azzarello's take on Wonder Woman.

@gokuwarrior: Wonder Woman is not an action book. You want action, read Action Comics. The action in WW is more in verbal confrontations than actual sword swining. Azzarello is going with a more traditional Greek myth route and it also owns a lot to George Perez' run. As for Diana not being relevant enough, she's the guardian to Zola's baby, she went to hell and back to protect her and confronted gods.

To lose all this is like having WW be a fish out of water...which she basically is in Justice League. Geoff Johns has introduced both Steve Trevor and Cheetah but neither have yet to have a profound effect on Diana. She acts like a b*tch who attacks her teammates in an immature fashion and won't accept any help from them. I know Justice League is a team book but WW has a big supporting cast too and still Diana doesn't feel like a shadow of herself unlike in JL.

Probably because DC has been trying to have characters that didn't interact much, interact now. It's a good thing.

@power_guy: Well Azzarello's run is similar to the Perez run and the Greek myth, both were dark, perverse and sexists. Greek myth in general is sexist, yet WW is still written like a strong character.

I can blame Johns because he doesn't know a thing about Wonder Woman. He writes Diana as a manhater, or at least someone really dumb who attacks her teammates and won't accept any help. She goes around wondering what ice cream is like and bounces from ditching Steve Trevor to Superman in ten seconds. None of this is from Brian Azzarello, there's no connection between the books.

@bloggerboy: arazzelo's run isn't similar to perez,perez wasn't going around god drama for more than 20 issues in a row,perez's run had true balance between the god theme and the modern world and modern villans like cheetah and silver swan.

wonder woman is about action too,she is a god like warrior,action and adventure are important parts of a wonder woman's title,and she has no real interaction with the world and other heros,in her own title she is more of wonder nanny than wonder woman.

@gokuwarrior: Well if you want balance there's Johns' Justice League book. It's got action and it had a Cheetah arc in that told the backstory of her and Diana's relationship. Then of course there's Steve Trevor and his history explained (in a backstory) with Diana.

I don't get the wonder nanny thing. She looks after a single mother and her unborn child yet you think Diana doesn't act like Wonder Woman (I assume you mean being compassionate?)

@gokuwarrior: There's also the fact that she literally told Hades that she loves everyone. That is quintessentially who Wonder Woman is. Geoff Johns has no idea what to do with Diana, he doesn't understand who her character is at her core, and he has admitted that. He's not taking any queues from Azzarello he is writing a different character altogether. Azzarello's Wonder Woman is mature, compassionate, and will literally go to hell and back to protect the people she cares about. Johns's "Wonder Woman" is immature, hot headed, fickle, selfish, and's first reaction to everything is to swing her sword, even against her own teammates. She doesn't have a fraction of the strength of character that Azz's Diana does

@avengers_4everxx: arazzello's wonder woman isn't compassionate,she tried to kill artemis in their last fight,the true wonder woman would never kill unless there is no other choise,in arazzello's run she easily loses the temper and killes,she was ripping off monsters and killing them,she seems bipolar,sometimes she talks sweet and act so kind,next issue she doesn't hesitate when it comes to crash a monster's head,or try to punch artemis to death,true wonder woman never trys to get revenge,one of her signature qualities is that she always forgives and gives love to everyone and will give help even to her biggest enemie,true wonder womancares about every life form,she doesn't kill,she would only do that in a very extreme situation like with maxwell lord for example.

best wonder woman versions so far,perez,ruka,simone>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>arazzello and johns.

@bloggerboy:

like i said to the other user,there are many things that are out of wonder woman's character,arazzello's wonder woman isn't compassionate,she tried to kill artemis in their last fight,the true wonder woman would never kill unless there is no other choise,in arazzello's run she easily loses the temper and killes,she was ripping off monsters and killing them,she seems bipolar,sometimes she talks sweet and act so kind,next issue she doesn't hesitate when it comes to crash a monster's head,or try to punch artemis to death,true wonder woman never trys to get revenge,one of her signature qualities is that she always forgives and gives love to everyone and will give help even to her biggest enemie,true wonder womancares about every life form,she doesn't kill,she would only do that in a very extreme situation like with maxwell lord for example.

best wonder woman versions so far,perez,ruka,simone>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>arazzello and johns.

@gokuwarrior: I think Diana being a compassionate superhero and an amazon warrior who uses a sword is an interesting mix. Out of the Trinity I can see Wonder Woman killing mythic beasts and even gods if forced to. And in some extra cases I think it's justified, namely with Maxwell Lord like you said. Diana gave the centaurs a chance and killed them in their second encounter. She had to protect a girl and her unborn baby. And Diana got badly beat up by both Apollo and Artemis before she gave it her best. During their second fight Diana uses Artemis' power against her (and chooses to keep her bracelets and give into absolute/corruptive power). I think she shows consideration and isn't just a mindless brute.

I love the Perez run and think there are some really good qualities in both Rucka's and Simone's run.

Funny that Perez is mentioned. He understands how to use characters and drive plot organically.

Another thing he does is truly depict a character's personality based on a very good understanding of the character's strengths and powers. His Raven was a healer with mystic ties-- after him, no one could write for a healer and her personality/ powers changed. Don't get me started on Jericho.

Perez WW was complex. Innocent but no pushover. A warrior and a woman with friends who had lives that were more than just one note(save me). And she smiles more. That Wonder Woman could defeat different bad guys more frequently and enjoyed moments of peace. She even got to wear plain clothes once in a while.

This is no Perez WW.

@sinisteri:

true,arazzello's wonder woman is a combination between,hercules,kratos and xena,with a little bit of wonder woman,she hasn't the depth and heroic she used to have.

The main character in the current WW title is not a bad character. Just not a version of WW with longevity.

I've asked why the writer didn't just create a brand new character without using the WW label for marketing. Think that new character would've had potential.

Is Arazzello's tenor here even considered a 'run' anymore? It seems more like loitering! A 'run' implies you're actually going somewhere, and quickly I might add; I'm not sure I see his story doing that!

It seems like both Johns and Azz picked out personality traits and shoved them in our faces.

Azz - WW's compassion, caring, and discipline.

Johns - The fish out of water, warrior woman, emotional WW.

It explains why both versions seem like they're missing something. It could also be the incredibly stupid, ridiculous and unnecessary changing of her origin....

@pokeysteve:

they divided the 2 most important sides of wonder woman and just used one or the other for their versions,instead of making the 2 sides coexist in ome wonder woman,and like i said to other users,arazzello's wonder woman seem bipolar,sometimes she talks sweet and act so kind,next issue she doesn't hesitate when it comes to crash a monster's head,or try to punch artemis to death,true wonder woman never trys to get revenge,one of her signature qualities is that she always forgives and gives love to everyone and will give help even to her biggest enemie,and true wonder woman cares about every life form,she doesn't kill,she would only do that in a very extreme situation like with maxwell lord for example.

I can't get over the fact that she is ok with the family she has known for most of her life being turned into snakes or had no clue that she was living amongst murderous rapers. Somehow, she came out smelling like a rose and full of love & values no one taught her.

That is a wonder!

LOL

I'm right there with you . . . I'm not sure if she knows that Hera did that to her people and it's a little disconcerting that Hera has become a part of her . . .what ever it is that she's become a part of.