Whose Wonder Woman is better Azzerrelo´s reboot or Geoffs JL WW?

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#1 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

I personally think Geoff has done a much better job. His WW is still a Superhero, and although I´m not ok with all of it, I thinks hes respected the character, her supporting cast and her villains alot more. In his own way trying to update it. It also seems to me like he´s trying to avoid altogether Azzerrelo´s new origin. As far as I´m concerned Azzerrelo doesn´t have a clue. What do you think?

#2 Edited by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

I do like what Azzarello has done with the story, there have been a lot of surprises but I wish he would move onto another topic already. This Zola's Baby and Gods thing should be a subplot by now so we can see other characters, enemies, and firmly place her in the world of DC.

#3 Posted by SmashBrawler (5633 posts) - - Show Bio

Azzarello.

#4 Posted by Shutdown (96 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmashBrawler said:

Azzarello.

#5 Posted by Squalleon (4559 posts) - - Show Bio

You can't compare them Johns has to write 7 characters in 30 pages and Azzarello only 1

And that goes for every character.The answer is obviously Azzarello but that isn't much of a contest

#6 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@Press Oblivion: But come on, this is Azzerrelo´s big plan. Apparently thats what WW does now, fight Gods out of her London base. Its clear the JL are in America anyway, but don´t you think Geoff is almost completely ignoring Azzerrello´s continuity in a way that he just isn´t for the rest of the characters like GL and Flash. Also him bringing Cheetah and Steve Trevor in is a big statement for me, that he´s not digging Azzerrelos unorthadox take on the character.

#7 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

I prefer the version in the Wonder Woman title with an interesting greek mythology. I just prefer greek mythology characters to be disguised as humans and Wonder Woman to be disguised as Diana Prince and I prefer Wonder Woman to wear a metal helmet to cover her face for a more believable disguise when she is playing Wonder Woman.

#8 Posted by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26: You're right, Johns has added much more Wonder Woman world experience to the title than any other character on the team, even more so than Cyborg who is the only other character on the team without a title and without that outlet to get into the more personal aspects of his character. I think that he's doing that, for Wonder Woman, on purpose because he knows that it's not going to be addressed in her own book. He is writing his side of Wonder Woman's story without mention to what's going on in her title and it's his side of Wonder Woman that I am more interested in reading about (There is an exception in issue 10).

Who's the better writer for/of Wonder Woman?

I was really jaded after Wonder Woman's introduction in Justice League 3. Her showing as a barbaric ignoramus who is incapable of using a door and only interested in fighting the next big threat was a disservice to the character and something that I held onto until today. I reread a couple of issues of the Justice League for another thread and found her to be the character that I expect to see of Wonder Woman. Steve, Etta & Cheetah are excellent points to John's credit and again, are elements of Wonder Woman that I am far more interested in than Greek tragedy.

I would like to see Johns' plots fleshed out more . . . in another Wonder Woman title!!!!!!!!!! Both books are creating a lot of questions without timely answers.

#9 Posted by divingfalcon713 (282 posts) - - Show Bio

Azzarello 100%. Would I like to see him include Diana a bit more with the rest of the DC universe? Absolutely. But I also love the new take on the Greek gods and am very interested to see how the story turns out. I haven't been this interested in a Wonder Woman story since Rucka was writing her.

I am not okay with Johns depicting Diana as the stereotypical warrior chick who's got nothing on her mind except where the next fight is. I was fine when the initial reports came out that Johns was going to be pairing her up with Superman. However, I am NOT okay with how she's being characterized in order to make Superman look good in that relationship. In the last issue of JL he essentially had to teach Diana what compassion/empathy is. That is just ridiculous to me.

#10 Posted by MrDirector786 (43516 posts) - - Show Bio

I like Azzerrelo's better.

#11 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

The Azzarello Wonder Woman should translate better into movies.

#12 Posted by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

@divingfalcon713 said:

In the last issue of JL he essentially had to teach Diana what compassion/empathy is. That is just ridiculous to me.

I didn't see it that way at all, that Superman was teaching Wonder Woman anything. She was feeling low and I took it to mean that Superman was showing her what helps him get through those feelings while trying to help her understand him better. She says "I don't really know you all that well" and he says "Let's change that" and then we get a glimpse into Superman's world. That's all it was.

#13 Posted by TimeLordScience (900 posts) - - Show Bio

Azzarello's is so much better. Johns's Justice League is really not doing it for me. For any character.

#14 Posted by jrock85 (2874 posts) - - Show Bio

Azzarello's Wonder Woman: Wise, emotionally mature, resilient, self-assured, compassionate, likes rock music.

Johns' Wonder Woman: Belligerent, insecure, sword-wielding dimwit.

I prefer Azzarello's WW.

#15 Posted by Mercy_ (92684 posts) - - Show Bio

@jrock85 said:

Azzarello's Wonder Woman: Wise, emotionally mature, resilient, self-assured, compassionate, likes rock music.

Johns' Wonder Woman: Belligerent, insecure, sword-wielding dimwit.

I prefer Azzarello's WW.

^

Moderator
#16 Posted by jrock85 (2874 posts) - - Show Bio

@Press Oblivion said:

@divingfalcon713 said:

In the last issue of JL he essentially had to teach Diana what compassion/empathy is. That is just ridiculous to me.

I didn't see it that way at all, that Superman was teaching Wonder Woman anything. She was feeling low and I took it to mean that Superman was showing her what helps him get through those feelings while trying to help her understand him better. She says "I don't really know you all that well" and he says "Let's change that" and then we get a glimpse into Superman's world. That's all it was.

The thing is, she's been through a helluva lot worse in her solo title, such as losing her mother and her entire race, yet she's demonstrated the strength of character to persevere through these hardships and go on about her business. In JL, however, whenever a problem arises she gets completely scatterbrained and needs Superman to shove his tongue down her throat to make everything all better.

With all do respect, I think your argument is invalid. Johns is purposely debasing her for the sake of giving her an excuse to run into Superman's arms.

#17 Posted by tupiaz (2180 posts) - - Show Bio

Haven't read neither WW nor JL but it sounds like it is going to make prblems with the cntinuity? Not to bright when the new 52'a has almost just begun. Writters ignoring eachother seems to create alot of problems. They should work together more than working against eacother.

#18 Posted by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

@jrock85 said:

whenever a problem arises she gets completely scatterbrained and needs Superman to shove his tongue down her throat to make everything all better

LOL that's awesome! Nicely worded. ;)

@jrock85 said:

With all do respect, I think your argument is invalid. Johns is purposely debasing her for the sake of giving her an excuse to run into Superman's arms.

@jrock85: My argument is invalid on what grounds? :D There is no evidence to support that or the notion that Johns is committing any indiscretions against Wonder Woman, willful or otherwise. There is, however, your opinion/interpretation and you're entitled to it.

@tupiaz said:

Haven't read neither WW nor JL but it sounds like it is going to make prblems with the cntinuity? Not to bright when the new 52'a has almost just begun. Writters ignoring eachother seems to create alot of problems. They should work together more than working against eacother.

I don't think that it's so much that they aren't working together as much as it might be that they're writing different aspects of her life. @jphulk26: helped me to see that Johns is applying more of her world to the Justice League title than any other team on the roster thus far and that's a bonus for Wonder Woman.

While I am enjoying Azzarello's run, I'm more interested in seeing greater development of what Johns has established.

#19 Posted by jrock85 (2874 posts) - - Show Bio

@Press Oblivion: Really? Portraying her as having the emotional maturity of a 12 year old girl is not a disservice to Wonder Woman? I'm pretty sure this is the reason why Azz is refusing to acknowledge this "romance" with Superman because the very nature of it contradicts everything he's established about WW's personality. His Diana has her sh*t together and doesn't require a "Superman" for anything.

Let me stress that my earlier reply was not meant to be a personal attack against you and neither is this one.

#20 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@Press Oblivion: Heres the thing, I haven´t read past the first seven issues of Azzerrellos WW, and I don´t intend to because of the extreme violence he did to her origin story. It was just unforgivable. Maybe the story since has got interesting, but as far as I´m concerned the character in it is Azzerrellos creation, it isn´t WW.

As for Geoff, I have major problems with him as well. Initially I thought the Superman angle was pretty lame. However after reading it, its not so bad. I´d also like to see more of her powers featured. After all this is the guy who doesn´t mind a superhero who can talk to fish, so I don´t see why her empathy with animals should be omited. As for her characterisation, considering he´s dealing with 6 other characters and since New 52 to me is just a watered down yet more violent version of comic runs we´ve had recent history, I don´t think he´s actually doing that badly. I also hated his Shazaam at first, but now I´ve started to get into it.

What I will say strongly in favor of Geoff is whether you like him or not, he actually tries (not always suceeding) to enhance or modernise the mythologies of the heroes he deals with. Azzerrello on the other hand just changes them completely and the whole mythology we´ve known about them. How is that introducing Wonder Woman to a new generation. WW father is not fucking Zeus, the amazons are not brutal blood thirsty rapists, she has many villians not being utilised, instead he´s come up with this lame family drama with the Gods, where are her supporting cast? steve trevor, kapitlaiz and her daughter etc etc etc. At a time when he had the opportunity to really enhance these characters, which are as much a part of Wonder Womans universe as Metropolis or Lois Lane is to Superman, he just dropped all that and wrote his own character and put it under the title WW. Its absolute bullshit. As I´ve said before if Batmans parents didn´t die, they just abandoned him, or Superman was not from Krypton he was actually from Neptune then you´ve destroyed the character. It no longer is the character we initially were talking about. Enhancing and modernising I don´t mind, completely changing a story and its cast and it villains and its hero is not doing either of those things. sorry. @Press Oblivion said:

@divingfalcon713 said:

In the last issue of JL he essentially had to teach Diana what compassion/empathy is. That is just ridiculous to me.

I didn't see it that way at all, that Superman was teaching Wonder Woman anything. She was feeling low and I took it to mean that Superman was showing her what helps him get through those feelings while trying to help her understand him better. She says "I don't really know you all that well" and he says "Let's change that" and then we get a glimpse into Superman's world. That's all it was.

Exactly that was going to be my last point.

#21 Edited by wondergirl246 (27 posts) - - Show Bio

I also really dislike what Azzarello did to her origin story. What was an original and complex origin steeped in Amazon lore and various goddesses is now just Zeus' kid version 617B. Why make her another Hercules clone? To make it more "realistic" or "relatable"? Does he know what medium this is?

That said, she is characterized better by Azzarello than Johns. Sure, part of it is that there is obviously more time for nuance when you don't have to consider six other characters. Nevertheless, Diana comes across as graceless and even thuggish in JL. I, too, have no problem with the Superman pairing as a concept, but it does seem to be rather gimicky and meant to make Superman look good. My hope is that it is temporary.

Story-wise, I think Azzarello's work is overrated. The Zeus' baby plot hasn't been interesting to me for several issues, and frankly Diana feels like a side character half the time. It feels like a Greek god drama graphic novel featuring Wonder Woman, not a proper Wonder Woman comic in the vain of Perez or Simone. It's a darker tone, with an interesting take on the mythology. It has its moments, but I would prefer it were an Elseworld.

#22 Posted by TDK_1997 (14697 posts) - - Show Bio

Azzarello has for me one of the best runs on Wonder Woman ever.I really like what he is doing with Diana.

#23 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@TDK_1997: COMPARED TO WHO? JUST INTERESTED.

#24 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@divingfalcon713: YOU MIGHT DISAGREE, but I think the Cheetah story fleshed out her character a bit and showed her to have the compassion she´s known for. I also like his take on Cheetah, the origin revamp was quite cool, so I think it depends where he goes from here.

My point is he´s giving far more respect to characters like WW and Aquaman than the rest of New 52 is their respective characters, especially WW. Also as someone who read Rucka I´m absolutely astonished that you can be into Azzerrello. Ruckas only problem ws he didn´t have enough action, but his stories were excellent, as was his use of Greek Mythology and he deepened WW mythology and character far more than Azzerrello. What I like about Gail is she took from Ruckas run that deeper character and mythology and added some humor and kick ass action. But Rucka seemed to really understand and love WW.

#25 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

No poll? Ah well. My vote:

I support Azzarello's Wonder Woman reboot as the stronger of the two. The WW he created is simple to understand and explain to others -- "She's a female, modern-day Hercules now" -- and yet the character has depth and a myriad of personal connections. He's also maintained the heart of the character, who was just as willing to end a fight through finding common ground as she is to throw down. I also like that he's put the pantheon front and center for the reboot. Too many writers shy away from the "Greek gods" aspect of WW when that should really be the heart of her character. He's put her in a great position for future expansion. And Chiang's art? Awesome. She looks like a warrior and she looks gorgeous.

Granted, Johns hasn't had the luxury of being able to focus on WW the same way that Azzarello has because he has a whole team he has to support, but I was still disappointed with the WW we got from him. She seemed one dimensional except where she alters moods for the benefit of the plot. First she's over-the-top excited about fighting in the flashback, then she's moody and standoffish, then all of a sudden she's Superman's girlfriend with little emotional support for that link. I liked some of the earlier Steve Trevor interaction, but so far that's failed to materialize into any real love triangle. Maybe once JLA launches, but it could just as easily be left dangling. And finally, Lee drew her like a very typical female hero. Extreme skinny waist, random awkward posing, and general pinup-ness -- not a fan.

#26 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

Re: The Cheetah arc, I like that it put the spotlight on Wonder Woman, but I found Cheetah far more interesting than the Wonder Woman it portrayed. The WW in that arc was dense, standoffish, largely emotionless, and everything was "solved" with an inspiring speech from Superman and then a make-out session.

In short, it's just more extension of her being "the Jean Grey", whose primary role is to bounce from romance to romance among the team. It was her big chance to show another relationship or friendship from her past that would round out her character, and instead we find out that relationship was false and she was too stupid to notice, and oh look here's your big strong boyfriend to solve everything. Cheetah was interesting as a character, so I don't necessarily mind the arc itself, but I think WW could have been portrayed better.

I guess I don't understand how people can be upset about a tweaked origin story but not upset about undercutting the core character traits of who Diana is.

#27 Posted by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

@jrock85 said:

Let me stress that my earlier reply was not meant to be a personal attack against you and neither is this one.

I didn't take it as a personal attack, you said my "argument is invalid" and I wanted to know why you think that. You never called me a name, used fowl language or insulted my intelligence, there was nothing to take personally. You still haven't told me why my argument is invalid.

Wonder Woman unshackled an instant before trouncing a GOD

I didn't like that Wonder Woman flew off the handle, in JL 11, either but it served to show you how powerful Wonder Woman is . . . another credit to Johns . . . she did that with the bracelets on, she may be the most powerful character on the planet and that was a device to show you just how formidable she is. While this scene may appear to be a poor showing for Diana we later learn that she's dealing with all sorts of guilt about Barbra Minerva, the loss of Steve, thinking him possibly dead, and being forced to relive the horror of her what had happened to her mother and the Amazons, she was breaking down, showing a human side that we didn't know was there. Instead of wallowing in tears, she lashed out while trying to take responsibility for what she felt was her charge alone.

@jphulk26: I agree with everything you said and I would have liked to see all of the things that you're talking about instead of what has been given to us. That said, I still like what Azz is doing and he keeps me coming back to see what happens next.

Am I 100% happy with what Johns & Azz are doing? No. Is the Superman angle forced? Yes. Is one writer better for Wonder Woman than the other? No, but were I forced to choose which angle I would rather see developed, again, I would chose Johns because it has all of the things that jphulk26 is talking about and that's what I want to know about Wonder Woman.

#28 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio
@Squalleon said:

You can't compare them Johns has to write 7 characters in 30 pages and Azzarello only 1

And that goes for every character.The answer is obviously Azzarello but that isn't much of a contest

And yet Geoff manages to devastate each character in less than one.
#29 Posted by TDK_1997 (14697 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26: I mean that I like him way more than Johns in development of her character.

#30 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33042 posts) - - Show Bio

@SmashBrawler said:

Azzarello.

#31 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@colonyofcells said:

The Azzarello Wonder Woman should translate better into movies.

I´m not trying to be offensive, honestly, but are you fucking serious? compared to what? If I pay money to go to watch a WW movie, and they have her dad as Zeus, the amazons as a bunch of violent rapists, her fighting spoilt brats with powers like its Olympus 90210, her depowered, moaning, brooding and grumpy, trained by men, none of the feminist mythology intact, Hyypolyta as a slut and Hera as some hormonal jealous wife of Zeus, I will literally walk out in the first act and demand my money back or see another film and that the cinema officially change my ticket so WB don´t get my money. Read some other WW, before you make bold statements like that.

I know you´re from a generation where everything new is better, and "oh man wolverine is so cool and relatable cause he´s bad ass", but that´s just going to far. I´ve come at this with kid gloves, but seriously that is absolute nonsense.

#32 Posted by divingfalcon713 (282 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26: Was I a bit sketched out by the new amazon history? Sure. But this is a reboot so I wasn't expecting her origin to stay completely intact. Based on sales of the book the Wonder Woman Azz is writing has succeeded in bringing her to more people, and he's done it without retelling the same old stories we've already heard. I personally enjoy the story he's creating and I prefer that he's establishing Wonder Woman and the villains of actual mythology before he adds more super villains. Also, his take on the gods and their infighting sits well with me because they always seemed way too cool with each other before. Diana's family has always influenced who she is, and the new52 is no exception. The change is that she's now related to all these horrible gods who use people like they're toys. Azz is doing a great job of showing how good WW is despite her new heritage, and that she can still be this wonderful person.

To me his WW is more true to her old personality than the one Johns is writing, despite her new heritage. When I read Johns' WW I find myself upset because she seems to be sorely lacking in the personality department. Introducing her old friendship with Cheetah was a ray of hope that she's not just a warrior lady who likes to make out with Superman. Except then she solved her sadness over that by, oh yeah, making out with Superman. The WW I read in Rucka's run wouldn't need a makeout session every time she was feeling a little down about her life, so I really disagree with you when you say that Johns is paying more respect to the character. I agree with you, Rucka's stories of her are fantastic, but in a new universe where I expected them to make changes to her origin I think Azz is doing a wonderful job setting up the foundation of her character. Unfortunately he and Johns are writing two different people and I happen to enjoy the character Azz is developing far more than Johns' lovesick warrior princess.

#33 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: Look I get it, I´m not the biggest fan of what the New 52 is doing to WW in general. But what I can´t stand is people who clearly never read the comic before, now jumping on the New 52 bandwagon, when they have nothing to compare it to. The assumption WW was less cool or relatable before this reboot is absurd. and further to say she was less relatable because she was the child of Athena and Hyypolyta (and all the feminist implications that go with that), but now she´s more relatable because she´s the child of Zeus is absolutely absurd. Also the guy has not in any shape or form kept to the spirit of the character, first of all there barely is a character from the first seven issues I read, but thats an aside, second as we all know a superheroes character isn´t an isolated bubble, their supporting cast, there city or environment and especially their villains are a part of who that character is as well. It is very important. Tell me one iconic villain from Azzerrellos run. What Apollo? The point is with out Artemis, or Steve Trevor, or the staff at her embassy or Dr Psycho and Ares, we are no longer seeing WW. also in every run that has been good of the comic the greek gods and greek mythology in general have always played a major part and they´ve been a lot more interestingly interpreted than what Azzerello is doing. WW was multifaceted before, because she be fighting Gods, Gorgans, Greek mythological creatures and super villains. Greg Rucka, again I say this, was so good at fusing that cosmic drama altogether. WW response to all these forces made her compelling, a warrior, compassionate, smart, capable, and sometimes naive. Gail Simone then added the dimension of humor and made her less naive. (Simone wasn´t as consistent as Rucka, but when she was on point she was brilliant) and the animated film shows that she can write and I´d love to see a graphic novel out of her or Rucka.

I hope that this story is for a short term, and this isn´t permanent, cause WW origin story before wasn´t just more original, touching and better, it made her standout. It was every bit as iconic as superman last son of a doomed race, or Batman orphaned billionaire turned crime fighter. Now WW´s story isn´t her own, it is basically the story of Hercules. Thats crap.

In short we have a WW without her full set of powers, with a vastly different origin, without any of her original supporting cast, without a true and nobel mission, and finally without any of her villains. and your telling me cause the character Arrezzello created is compassionate and capable sometimes he´s kept to the spirit of the character. come on your smarter than that. If they did that to Superman or Batman DC offices would have been burnt down by now.

#34 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: Although I do like Changs art and her new costume. Which makes it even more of a travesty that they´ve completely ruined everything that was individual and unique about her.

#35 Posted by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

If they did that to Superman or Batman DC offices would have been burnt down by now.

LOL!

#36 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

I believe dc is positioning Wonder Woman movies to compete with the Thor movies. The Thor movies use mostly norse mythology villains and no earthling villains. Similarly, the Azzarello greek mythology villains will probably show up in future Wonder Woman movies. I believe New Gods movies can also compete with the Thor movies. The New Gods like Orion are a lot more interesting than Thor. The reboots of the greek mythology characters are so much more interesting and is very similar to the Sandman Endless characters.

#37 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@colonyofcells: But she alreay had villains from Greek mythology, Medusa, Ares, Phobos. There was no need to change her story for that.

#38 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@Press Oblivion: Can I ask, is it established if the Amazons are even immortal anymore? or if Diana was the only child of Themyscira, cause I´m at a loss as to why they were raping soldiers, and discarding the male babies, they´re supposed to be immortal. Is WW now just a demigod and the rest are normal humans? How old is WW then? Has she just lived a normal life time, and be lied to by this female warrior society? Because if the Amazons are just mortal and need to repopulate, surely Hyppolita should have died a long time ago, or aged. Can someone answer? @divingfalcon713:

@colonyofcells: I hope not.

#39 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

@fodigg: Look I get it, I´m not the biggest fan of what the New 52 is doing to WW in general. But what I can´t stand is people who clearly never read the comic before, now jumping on the New 52 bandwagon, when they have nothing to compare it to. The assumption WW was less cool or relatable before this reboot is absurd. and further to say she was less relatable because she was the child of Athena and Hyypolyta (and all the feminist implications that go with that), but now she´s more relatable because she´s the child of Zeus is absolutely absurd. Also the guy has not in any shape or form kept to the spirit of the character, first of all there barely is a character from the first seven issues I read, but thats an aside, second as we all know a superheroes character isn´t an isolated bubble, their supporting cast, there city or environment and especially their villains are a part of who that character is as well. It is very important. Tell me one iconic villain from Azzerrellos run. What Apollo? The point is with out Artemis, or Steve Trevor, or the staff at her embassy or Dr Psycho and Ares, we are no longer seeing WW. also in every run that has been good of the comic the greek gods and greek mythology in general have always played a major part and they´ve been a lot more interestingly interpreted than what Azzerello is doing. WW was multifaceted before, because she be fighting Gods, Gorgans, Greek mythological creatures and super villains. Greg Rucka, again I say this, was so good at fusing that cosmic drama altogether. WW response to all these forces made her compelling, a warrior, compassionate, smart, capable, and sometimes naive. Gail Simone then added the dimension of humor and made her less naive. (Simone wasn´t as consistent as Rucka, but when she was on point she was brilliant) and the animated film shows that she can write and I´d love to see a graphic novel out of her or Rucka.

I hope that this story is for a short term, and this isn´t permanent, cause WW origin story before wasn´t just more original, touching and better, it made her standout. It was every bit as iconic as superman last son of a doomed race, or Batman orphaned billionaire turned crime fighter. Now WW´s story isn´t her own, it is basically the story of Hercules. Thats crap.

In short we have a WW without her full set of powers, with a vastly different origin, without any of her original supporting cast, without a true and nobel mission, and finally without any of her villains. and your telling me cause the character Arrezzello created is compassionate and capable sometimes he´s kept to the spirit of the character. come on your smarter than that. If they did that to Superman or Batman DC offices would have been burnt down by now.

I agree that WW was interesting and good before the reboot (in some runs more than others, just like any character). I like Azz's stuff but I wouldn't dub it exclusively the best, just better than what we're getting from the current JL run.

Playing Devil's (or I guess Hades') advocate on the changed origin, the one benefit you get from the simplified origin is that it is far easier to explain to the general audience should they be angling for a Wonder Woman film. Sure, there are ways to dumb down the old origin without changing it, but this makes just as much sense and fits easily into public understanding.

As for the exclusive focus on the gods, I think it's good as a foundation for the character to branch out from later. I agree that we need to start seeing the broader villains at some point (come on BLUE SNOWMAN!) but I think it's okay to start where he did. Even I can admit that the baby storyline is getting a little long though. Hopefully he'll wrap it up soon.

As for character development, I would recommend reading the zero issue or the recent interaction with that desert wind girl who I can't remember the name of wow that's embarrassing I didn't read it THAT long ago --/checking-- oh, her name is Siracca. How could I forget that? It sounds like Sriracha, which is pure deliciousness given form. Anyway, the way she resolved that fight was definitively Wonder Woman. And earlier than that, how she handled Hades as well. She's more than just the brawler-chick we get in JL, but she can still throw down when she has to.

I dunno. I'm digging it. I agree that it needs to start working in larger aspects of the DCU, but I'm digging it.

#40 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

As for character development, I would recommend reading the zero issue or the recent interaction with that desert wind girl who I can't remember the name of wow that's embarrassing I didn't read it THAT long ago --/checking-- oh, her name is Siracca. How could I forget that? It sounds like Sriracha, which is pure deliciousness given form. Anyway, the way she resolved that fight was definitively Wonder Woman. And earlier than that, how she handled Hades as well. She's more than just the brawler-chick we get in JL, but she can still throw down when she has to.

I dunno. I'm digging it. I agree that it needs to start working in larger aspects of the DCU, but I'm digging it.

I read the 0 issue. It was OK. What worries me is when people say this is the version of her we should get in a movie. No bloody way, that would be awful, why would you take such a great story and simplify it. By the way it isn´t even simplifying it and if you read my comment above you´ll see why. The story doesn´t actually make any sense when you think about it. @jphulk26 said:

@Press Oblivion: Can I ask, is it established if the Amazons are even immortal anymore? or if Diana was the only child of Themyscira, cause I´m at a loss as to why they were raping soldiers, and discarding the male babies, they´re supposed to be immortal. Is WW now just a demigod and the rest are normal humans? How old is WW then? Has she just lived a normal life time, and be lied to by this female warrior society? Because if the Amazons are just mortal and need to repopulate, surely Hyppolita should have died a long time ago, or aged. Can someone answer? @divingfalcon713:

@colonyofcells: I hope not.

Its just stupid. It is so damn easy to make her the daughter of Zeus, and the Amazons have been lying all this time, but that causes other problems to the story that doesn´t make any sense.

Her new origin is just so awful I can´t bring myself to spend a penny on the rest of the series, I may download it to see whats happening and what you all are raving about, and I´m sure its good, but it could have been just as good without her being Zeus´ bastard. Could Hera still not have got mad at Zeus for this Zola? Could Hera not have punished Diana for protecting Zola by turning the Amazons to Stone and snakes? etc etc etc

As I stated the art is good. The story is tragically flawed from inception.

#41 Posted by jrock85 (2874 posts) - - Show Bio

@Press Oblivion: First let me apologize for saying that your argument was invalid because I could have been and should have been much more tactful. My interpretation of what happened in JL #14 is not Wonder Woman "having a down moment" and Superman helping her get through it. I see that as her being subjected to blatant character derailment for the purpose of setting up this "romance." As I mentioned earlier, in her solo title she's been to hell and back (literally) but she's shown an unwavering resilience to handle everything that's been thrown at her. And more importantly, she has no difficulty relating to or bonding with humans, therefore she does not uniquely require companionship from Superman. The point is, Johns does not portray her as having the same qualities that she displays in her own book because if he did, nothing that we've seen in JL #11 through #14 would have transpired. I agree that its great that they brought Steve back, considering that he's her traditional love interest and she needs a great romance just like her male counterparts have had. But...after what happened in JL #12, I just don't see how they can reconcile once this crap with Superman is over with.

#42 Posted by kapitein_zeppos (341 posts) - - Show Bio

Never been a fan of the rebooted version, seems to me they tried to fix something that wasn't broken.

#43 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@divingfalcon713: BY THE WAY I´m not sure if you´re the one who said Wonder Woman is selling well now. It actually isn´t. All DC have done is clearly alienate old fans for new ones. Which means her sales haven´t actually increased. Azz´s first vol blood got massive numbers and since it has been steadly declining. All the way from a healthy 10th position in January to barely even making it into the top 100 by November. As for annual sales, most came from people buying Blood. So your theory is wrong, alienate the people who have stuck with WW for years = bad business.

#44 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@jrock85: It seems to me Geoff is just trying to compènsate for what old fans aren´t getting in WW New52 solo publication. The Superman romance aside, having Cheetah feature as a main villain for JLA is pretty radical and making her cool, and updating her as Geoff did, I appreciate that. As for his characterization, WW can be attracted to superman and superman to her, it was a bit rushed, but I´d rather John take over duties on solo WW than continue with Azz. The guy doesn´t even like the character.

#45 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26: I'm confused, it's "so damn easy" but it's not simplified? And giving WW a familial connection to other demi-gods after the Amazons were essentially taken away from her was poignant and meaningful. I don't see how any of the changes have made WW inconsistent within itself since the revamp. Or even really across the JL stuff except for character portrayal.

#46 Posted by Onemoreposter (4021 posts) - - Show Bio

@jrock85 said:

Azzarello's Wonder Woman: Wise, emotionally mature, resilient, self-assured, compassionate, likes rock music.

Johns' Wonder Woman: Belligerent, insecure, sword-wielding dimwit.

I prefer Azzarello's WW.

Hmm. Well put, make mine Azzarello's.

#47 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: @fodigg: Did you read my question about the Amazons, I think I made it quite clear. I´m glad you´re enjoying this series, but it the inconsistencies are flagrant. I´ll quote my point again so may be you can give me an answer.

Also all the feminist implications of her mythology are also lost in Azz´s version, not saying Geoff is any better.

@Press Oblivion: Can I ask, is it established if the Amazons are even immortal anymore? or if Diana was the only child of Themyscira, cause I´m at a loss as to why they were raping soldiers, and discarding the male babies, they´re supposed to be immortal. Is WW now just a demigod and the rest are normal humans? How old is WW then? Has she just lived a normal life time, and be lied to by this female warrior society? Because if the Amazons are just mortal and need to repopulate, surely Hyppolita should have died a long time ago, or aged. Can someone answer?

#48 Posted by divingfalcon713 (282 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26: I said based on the sales Azz succeeded in getting new readers to pay some attention to her. Since so many people bought "Blood" what I said is true. Also, I've read WW for years, and I'm not alienated by this new take. I've recommended it to friends who've read old WW stuff and they've liked it as well. Just because you don't care for it doesn't mean the rest of us are wrong or care less for the character.

#49 Edited by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

@jrock85 said:

@Press Oblivion: First let me apologize for saying that your argument was invalid because I could have been and should have been much more tactful. My interpretation of what happened in JL #14 is not Wonder Woman "having a down moment" and Superman helping her get through it. I see that as her being subjected to blatant character derailment for the purpose of setting up this "romance." As I mentioned earlier, in her solo title she's been to hell and back (literally) but she's shown an unwavering resilience to handle everything that's been thrown at her. And more importantly, she has no difficulty relating to or bonding with humans, therefore she does not uniquely require companionship from Superman. The point is, Johns does not portray her as having the same qualities that she displays in her own book because if he did, nothing that we've seen in JL #11 through #14 would have transpired. I agree that its great that they brought Steve back, considering that he's her traditional love interest and she needs a great romance just like her male counterparts have had. But...after what happened in JL #12, I just don't see how they can reconcile once this crap with Superman is over with.

No need to apologize, there was no wrong to apologize for. I appreciate your position and I agree that she does not require companionship from Superman, the romance is poorly conceived and presented and I have written as much about it in the NOT A FRIEND AT ALL thread. If Wonder Woman is a victim in this, isn't Superman a victim too? Isn't this a degradation to his character as he's now portrayed as a player since he's trying to get Lois's attention, pining over her in his own titles while practicing intimacy with Diana? That's very out of character for him, perhaps he's a victim here too.

The difference in characterization from one title to another is frustrating, especially when you're trying to figure out when these stories take place. In Wonder Woman title, she seems much more mature and capable than in the JL incarnation. After having read those JL books again, I have a better understanding of what Diana was going through and, for me, I can reconcile those differences, seeing that the two books aren't as far apart as I once thought. Yet there is still a distance.

@jphulk26 said:

@Press Oblivion: Can I ask, is it established if the Amazons are even immortal anymore? or if Diana was the only child of Themyscira, cause I´m at a loss as to why they were raping soldiers, and discarding the male babies, they´re supposed to be immortal. Is WW now just a demigod and the rest are normal humans? How old is WW then? Has she just lived a normal life time, and be lied to by this female warrior society? Because if the Amazons are just mortal and need to repopulate, surely Hyppolita should have died a long time ago, or aged. Can someone answer?

This is an unanswered question at this time. There is nothing published to substantiate that the Amazons are immortal. Diana was not the only child of Temyscira as it was shown in the pages of Wonder Woman 0 that she was fighting with Alika as children at about the same age, and there was at least one other visible child in the crowd as they fought.

#50 Edited by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

Based on the clues, I would assume the amazons, the female children and the male children of the Amazons are all immortal. Zeus is an immortal but he can be killed by somebody powerful enough such as Darkseid and immortal Amazons can also be killed. Immortal Zeus likes to have children and I would assume immortal Amazons also like to have children. My guess is immortal Amazons stop aging once they reach adulthood so we won't see Amazons with wrinkled skin.

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