What is First Born's appeal?

#1 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

First Born is the son of Zeus and Hera that Zeus tried to kill. He is recently returned and wants to destroy the world. He is angry.

I don't get the appeal. I want to hear why some think this character is so great.

I love Darkseid because as his name, he embodies the darkest nature of man. He has family issues and well thought out, complicated plans.

Joker is insane and fun, even painfully human.

Luther is a genius prejudice against do gooders, especially aliens. He loves himself and a few select ladies. He is complex.

Most of Wonder Woman's villains are psychological mind fields or gods too human for their own good. They have centuries of deceit, schemes and dark desires to create intricate stories.

To me, First Born(needs a better name) does not measure up other than an angry brute. When did he have time to amass armies?

So, what do you find appealing about him?

#2 Edited by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri:first born's character hasn't had much development,just like we still don't know many thinks about azz's wonder woman,how she feels,what are her goals,etc,and at the speed that azz goes,maybe by the end of the decade we will have a better idea about all this.

#3 Posted by Outside_85 (9038 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: The basic appeal of him is that he is a mirror opposite of Diana. It's a road thats been tried before with Devastation and Genocide who are both Dark Wonder Women but so far FB has moved on to actually stating he is everything Diana is not down to a moral standpoint.. If you want to call him something else, he has two other names he tend to mention when he gets pissed off:

The One With No Name

The Crippler of Souls

#4 Posted by darknightspideyfanboy (1266 posts) - - Show Bio
#6 Edited by darknightspideyfanboy (1266 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26: naw i like gow game thus i like FB(kratos) lol

#7 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

Thanks for feedback.

I do not get the opposite of Diana aspect. He is a god compared to her demi-god, and even Diana has not been fleshed out in new 52. Unless the audience should assume she is mostly pre-new 52 which contradicts the elements revealed in new 52. She protects/he kills. She could care less about her mom and sisters/he hates his family. She gets angry and fights/he stays angry and destroys.

Do you mean he is the opposite if new 52 Diana?

This is not a point of argument. I want to make sense of the feedback.

How is he the opposite of new 52 WW anymore than any other criminal or terrorist? What sets him aside and make readers want more?

#8 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (11621 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't find any appeal to him. As of now, I think he's dumb. All brute. Perhaps my opinion will change though.

#9 Posted by BR_Havoc (1296 posts) - - Show Bio

If anything he is kind of like pre flash point Ares so I would not be surprised if he became the god of war sooner or later.

#10 Edited by WhineHaus (83 posts) - - Show Bio

First Born represents one of the most dangerous kinds of figures from Greek tragedy: a royal offspring who psychotically believes in their own destiny and entitlement. Zeus, in the same vein as Cronos of Greek myths, sought to kill the First Born due to a prophecy that his First Born would take the throne of Olympus.

I love the irony attached to First Born's character and lore. Greek myths remind us that Zeus, unbeknownst to Cronos, survived, came back to exact vengeance upon his father, and took the throne of Olympus (thereby fulfilling the prophecy). In most interpretations, Zeus is viewed in a rather heroic light. Now, we have the First Born essentially doing the same thing, yet he's a villain. Also, Zeus is removed from the picture, so it's moved beyond father/son conflict. While it has other elements, First Born's story is one rooted in Ancient Greek archetypes.

Something I find fascinating about First Born is his motive. He is hatred incarnate, gruesome and frightening, cunning and heartless. But why? He murders without emotion, and his only goal is complete destruction. He believes in his own prophecy, but after 7,000 years of mulling and digging, he's cultivated a level hatred greater than anyone's seen. But should the First Born be held solely accountable? After all, as Poseidon mentioned, he was banished to the center of the earth to give him time to rethink his apocalyptic prophecy, yet it only served to fuel it. Also, it was Zeus' paternalistic fear of succession that inspired him to kill his own son, his first born son, a child that traditionally inspires the greatest amount of pride within a father. First Born represents everything against that traditional view, and it could be argued that Zeus actually fulfilled his own demise (as did Cronos). Not to absolve the First Born of any blame, but he really had no choice in the fate that made him so evil.

Set against Diana, however, I love the fact they're siblings and that he's a male. The First Born is able to defeat Diana with brute force, something that doesn't happen often with Wonder Woman. That fact alone is attractive to me, because it strips back the common notion that Diana is just a female Superman. I enjoy when heroes face defeat only slightly less than they face triumph. The shear strength of First Born represents some opportunity for Diana, for her to gain skills (martial, magical, and tactical) necessary to defeat him, thereby granting her character a vast amount of development.

They represent polar opposites. Since Diana is directly uninvolved with the First Born's fate 7,000 years ago, she has every right to combat his evil, and as a member of his family, she has an obligation to. It would also be interesting to see Diana ask the same questions I do regarding the First Born. Who should be held accountable for the monster? Yes he is evil, but should other members of Olympus be punished as well? It it justice to merely kill the First Born? If not, how should he be punished?

I enjoy First Born as a villain, as well as a backdrop for Diana's character and progressions.

Those are my reasons for finding First Born appealing.

#11 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29501 posts) - - Show Bio

First Born represents one of the most dangerous kinds of figures from Greek tragedy: a royal offspring who psychotically believes in their own destiny and entitlement.

Pretty much this. I've only read one issue of Wonder Woman and I thought the premise for the character was great.

#12 Edited by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

First Born represents one of the most dangerous kinds of figures from Greek tragedy: a royal offspring who psychotically believes in their own destiny and entitlement. Zeus, in the same vein as Cronos of Greek myths, sought to kill the First Born due to a prophecy that his First Born would take the throne of Olympus.

I love the irony attached to First Born's character and lore. Greek myths remind us that Zeus, unbeknownst to Cronos, survived, came back to exact vengeance upon his father, and took the throne of Olympus (thereby fulfilling the prophecy). In most interpretations, Zeus is viewed in a rather heroic light. Now, we have the First Born essentially doing the same thing, yet he's a villain. Also, Zeus is removed from the picture, so it's moved beyond father/son conflict. While it has other elements, First Born's story is one rooted in Ancient Greek archetypes.

Something I find fascinating about First Born is his motive. He is hatred incarnate, gruesome and frightening, cunning and heartless. But why? He murders without emotion, and his only goal is complete destruction. He believes in his own prophecy, but after 7,000 years of mulling and digging, he's cultivated a level hatred greater than anyone's seen. But should the First Born be held solely accountable? After all, as Poseidon mentioned, he was banished to the center of the earth to give him time to rethink his apocalyptic prophecy, yet it only served to fuel it. Also, it was Zeus' paternalistic fear of succession that inspired him to kill his own son, his first born son, a child that traditionally inspires the greatest amount of pride within a father. First Born represents everything against that traditional view, and it could be argued that Zeus actually fulfilled his own demise (as did Cronos). Not to absolve the First Born of any blame, but he really had no choice in the fate that made him so evil.

Set against Diana, however, I love the fact they're siblings and that he's a male. The First Born is able to defeat Diana with brute force, something that doesn't happen often with Wonder Woman. That fact alone is attractive to me, because it strips back the common notion that Diana is just a female Superman. I enjoy when heroes face defeat only slightly less than they face triumph. The shear strength of First Born represents some opportunity for Diana, for her to gain skills (martial, magical, and tactical) necessary to defeat him, thereby granting her character a vast amount of development.

They represent polar opposites. Since Diana is directly uninvolved with the First Born's fate 7,000 years ago, she has every right to combat his evil, and as a member of his family, she has an obligation to. It would also be interesting to see Diana ask the same questions I do regarding the First Born. Who should be held accountable for the monster? Yes he is evil, but should other members of Olympus be punished as well? It it justice to merely kill the First Born? If not, how should he be punished?

I enjoy First Born as a villain, as well as a backdrop for Diana's character and progressions.

Those are my reasons for finding First Born appealing.

All this analysis would be great if he himself was an interesting villain. Its all well and cool that this is all steeped in Greek Mythology. All very clever, I get it. But actually look at the character. Compare him to The Joker or Lex Luthor or for that matter compare him to Ares and what your left with is not an answer to wonder woman rogues gallery being problematic and lame, but rather where left with exclamation point of that fact. Azzerrelo once again has failed to do anything but appeal to people with some knowledge of Greek Mythology. My question who cares? Other writers can pull off the trick of actually making people interested in Greek Mythology, not actually requiring knowledge of Greek Mythology or history, prior to reading to actually be entertained. A good character should start from the simple premise of on a purely superficial level is this character entertaining. If they have layers and subtext beneath that, all the better. Hannibal Lecter, great character and villain on a superficial level. Does he have layers that can be analysed yes. But first and foremost he´s just iconic on a straight reading of the character. You on the other hand seem to be saying what is interesting about the character is all beneath the surface requiring a nuanced understanding of Greek Myth. That is not presented in the comic, nor on a surface level is the character interesting beyond some scholarly observations.

However I must admit it is interesting your analysis.

#13 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13176 posts) - - Show Bio

he was born first. *rimshot*

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#14 Edited by WhineHaus (83 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26: Actually, what I was saying in a nutshell is "I like the First Born, because..." I'm not trying to change your opinion, I'm responding to the OP. Your disinterest in the First Born represents a personal taste, as does my interest in the character.

Considering Diana's character is rooted in Ancient Greece, I welcome any new characters or story arcs that pay homage to her cultural roots (i.e. the First Born).

#15 Edited by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

I appreciate the responses. This has been insightful. It helps to see the other side even if I do not agree, and there was supporting info.

It seems some of his attributes do seem to be assumed to make him work. For example, how has he shown he is cunning?

Was looking for some comparisons to the major villains I mentioned at the start of the thread, but they are definitely in a different class.

Again, thanks. And continue if there are more thoughts.

#16 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26: Actually, what I was saying in a nutshell is "I like the First Born, because..." I'm not trying to change your opinion, I'm responding to the OP. Your disinterest in the First Born represents a personal taste, as does my interest in the character.

Considering Diana's character is rooted in Ancient Greece, I welcome any new characters or story arcs that pay homage to her cultural roots (i.e. the First Born).

got it, but then your answer to the question why is this character interesing is, because I have knowledge of greek mythology? but the op is asking another question. could this guy really be wonder womans joker or lex luthor. my answer and yours no. you don´t need to know the history of film noir to recognize a demented clown is the perfect foil for batman. or a deep knowledge of scifi to get lex and supes. I´m trying to get on a basic level what´s the point of the first born?

#17 Edited by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26:

Good point. The noted perspective is that any mythological character classic or freshly invented would receive overwhelming response just because the character has mythic ties.

What sets the Joker apart from any insane clown or Lex from any mad scientist/businessman? For me-- attitude, style as well as his own style of randomness and jealousy as well as egotistical need for power with darkly buried heart.

What traits have been depicted about First Born that makes him so appealing?

#18 Edited by RDClip (1129 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, it's implied he bred with a hyena, so there's that.

But seriously, I don't really see this villain being WW's arch anytime soon. At best he might be to her as Bane is to Batman, a dangerous foe but not the Joker.

#19 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio
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#20 Edited by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: Thanks.

I also find it ironic that someone is loving a story arch because it pays homage to DIANA´S greek roots. It seems strange to welcome that but be an advocate of transforming everything else about the character to the point it isn´t Diana any more, but some holy different entity. The book seems to be paying more homage to greek mythology than the character at the centre of the book. diplomat, warrior, fish out of water, amazon, emissary of peace, nope lets take babysitter caught in greek drama, that is far less interesting than actual greek dramas. I´d love to see what sophicles or aristotle thought of this story. they´d be like, sure you got the whole greek mythology down, but dude, did you ever read any of our works on structure of plots. this comic makes the odyessy seem like an episode of friends. the odysessy is far more to the point. I have a theory that azzerrelo is trying to combat attention deficit disorder in his readers. by starting off with an interesting premise then boring us to tears, with a soap opera of such annoyingly bland scales, it makes sunset beach seem like a fun romp. he´s a noble man with a noble cause, but sorry this story is not getting boring, its beyond boring and now is settling in a whole new realm inexplicable to the reader. wtf is the point? by now we all know, that no pay off at this point is going to be worth the volumes of meandering storylines that makeup this, delusional writers attempt at an epic.

#21 Edited by WhineHaus (83 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26: The next time I want my opinion validated, I'll let you know.

@sinisteri: Great observation regarding the Joker vs. and insane clown, etc. I guess I just placed emphasis on the final question in the OP, "What do you find so appealing about him?" Hence my first post.

As for the First Born's standout traits, his level of hatred certainly comes to mind. It fuels him and defines him. I loved when he said to Diana, "The perfume of hate is on you, Sister." It seemed directed as an insult, a way of getting under Diana's skin by likening her hatred to his. It's just a thought of mine, but perhaps he represents the level of destruction and discord that Diana is also capable of, and perhaps she shamefully knows that she's capable of it? The fact that First Born's hatred stems from familial ties makes it even more scathing. It brings it closer to home, as does him being Diana's brother.

It's there, within the tragic family ties, that First Born's archenemy potential lives. Love it or hate it, we've seen a large shift in Wonder Woman's narrative with the New 52. Much of her struggle has revolved around self-identity and her subsequent struggle to understand family. The revelation of her bloodline was an emotional curveball, and in response to the vanquishing of her Amazon family, we saw Diana seek out other illegitimate children of Zeus. While these new siblings primarily aided Diana's quest for Zola's baby, they represent Diana's kinship and her growing understanding/appreciation of family. To place Diana in direct conflict with with her brother (First Born) also places her in conflict with a concept (family) she has yet to wholly understand.

Of course, only time will tell, but I think First Born has a lot of dramatic potential as it pertains to Diana and the current manifestation of her character.

#22 Edited by Akindoodle (1021 posts) - - Show Bio

@whinehaus: Wow. You summarised everything I thought of him. Well done... I can ever find that gif of that fellow clapping anytime I need it.

#23 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: The basic appeal of him is that he is a mirror opposite of Diana. It's a road thats been tried before with Devastation and Genocide who are both Dark Wonder Women but so far FB has moved on to actually stating he is everything Diana is not down to a moral standpoint.. If you want to call him something else, he has two other names he tend to mention when he gets pissed off:

The One With No Name

The Crippler of Souls

he is not diana's antithesis,that is cheetah,she represents hate,jealousy,contempt for life and power ambiccion,cheetah is everything diana stands against,cheetah is a killer,she loves to kill,she is selfish,she hates society and she has contempt for life,all the oppiste to diana.

#24 Posted by JetiiMitra (8635 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85 said:

@sinisteri: The basic appeal of him is that he is a mirror opposite of Diana. It's a road thats been tried before with Devastation and Genocide who are both Dark Wonder Women but so far FB has moved on to actually stating he is everything Diana is not down to a moral standpoint.. If you want to call him something else, he has two other names he tend to mention when he gets pissed off:

The One With No Name

The Crippler of Souls

he is not diana's antithesis,that is cheetah,she represents hate,jealousy,contempt for life and power ambiccion,cheetah is everything diana stands against,cheetah is a killer,she loves to kill,she is selfish,she hates society and she has contempt for life,all the oppiste to diana.

There can be more than one.

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#25 Edited by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (739 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85 said:

@sinisteri: The basic appeal of him is that he is a mirror opposite of Diana. It's a road thats been tried before with Devastation and Genocide who are both Dark Wonder Women but so far FB has moved on to actually stating he is everything Diana is not down to a moral standpoint.. If you want to call him something else, he has two other names he tend to mention when he gets pissed off:

The One With No Name

The Crippler of Souls

You mean like "The Man With No Name"? smh, Azzarello hasn't had an original thought yet. Maybe it's just me, but when I see FB I think of facebook and "The Crippler of Souls" sounds like a wrestler.

#26 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@mitran said:

@gokuwarrior said:

@outside_85 said:

@sinisteri: The basic appeal of him is that he is a mirror opposite of Diana. It's a road thats been tried before with Devastation and Genocide who are both Dark Wonder Women but so far FB has moved on to actually stating he is everything Diana is not down to a moral standpoint.. If you want to call him something else, he has two other names he tend to mention when he gets pissed off:

The One With No Name

The Crippler of Souls

he is not diana's antithesis,that is cheetah,she represents hate,jealousy,contempt for life and power ambiccion,cheetah is everything diana stands against,cheetah is a killer,she loves to kill,she is selfish,she hates society and she has contempt for life,all the oppiste to diana.

There can be more than one.

there is no need for another one,we have cheetah,then we have,

ares is war,violence and obsessed with having total control,,silver swan=lack of self-esteem,frustration and anger.

dr psycho=small man complex,loneliness,sadness and obsessed with finding someone for him to never be alone,his obsetion with diana.

circe=ego,evil,superiority complex and vindictive.

#27 Edited by JetiiMitra (8635 posts) - - Show Bio

@mitran said:

@gokuwarrior said:

@outside_85 said:

@sinisteri: The basic appeal of him is that he is a mirror opposite of Diana. It's a road thats been tried before with Devastation and Genocide who are both Dark Wonder Women but so far FB has moved on to actually stating he is everything Diana is not down to a moral standpoint.. If you want to call him something else, he has two other names he tend to mention when he gets pissed off:

The One With No Name

The Crippler of Souls

he is not diana's antithesis,that is cheetah,she represents hate,jealousy,contempt for life and power ambiccion,cheetah is everything diana stands against,cheetah is a killer,she loves to kill,she is selfish,she hates society and she has contempt for life,all the oppiste to diana.

There can be more than one.

there is no need for another one,we have cheetah,then we have,

ares is war,violence and obsessed with having total control,,silver swan=lack of self-esteem,frustration and anger.

dr psycho=small man complex,loneliness,sadness and obsessed with finding someone for him to never be alone,his obsetion with diana.

circe=ego,evil,superiority complex and vindictive.

With the exception of Ares (who's dead), are any of those in the new 52? If not, then it's safe to say "mirror image" is a role that can and perhaps will be taken by First Born.

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#29 Posted by Outside_85 (9038 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85 said:

@sinisteri: The basic appeal of him is that he is a mirror opposite of Diana. It's a road thats been tried before with Devastation and Genocide who are both Dark Wonder Women but so far FB has moved on to actually stating he is everything Diana is not down to a moral standpoint.. If you want to call him something else, he has two other names he tend to mention when he gets pissed off:

The One With No Name

The Crippler of Souls

he is not diana's antithesis,that is cheetah,she represents hate,jealousy,contempt for life and power ambiccion,cheetah is everything diana stands against,cheetah is a killer,she loves to kill,she is selfish,she hates society and she has contempt for life,all the oppiste to diana.

The only thing that's directly opposite of Diana in Cheetah is her savagery. She's not even the closest to being the antithesis of Diana out of the older foes, because that mantle belongs to Circe.

#30 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior said:

@outside_85 said:

@sinisteri: The basic appeal of him is that he is a mirror opposite of Diana. It's a road thats been tried before with Devastation and Genocide who are both Dark Wonder Women but so far FB has moved on to actually stating he is everything Diana is not down to a moral standpoint.. If you want to call him something else, he has two other names he tend to mention when he gets pissed off:

The One With No Name

The Crippler of Souls

he is not diana's antithesis,that is cheetah,she represents hate,jealousy,contempt for life and power ambiccion,cheetah is everything diana stands against,cheetah is a killer,she loves to kill,she is selfish,she hates society and she has contempt for life,all the oppiste to diana.

The only thing that's directly opposite of Diana in Cheetah is her savagery. She's not even the closest to being the antithesis of Diana out of the older foes, because that mantle belongs to Circe.

nope,that title belongs to cheetah,all of diana's villans represent somethin opposite to her,but cheetah is her archy enemy.

#31 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@mitran:cheetah is in the new 52.

#32 Edited by Outside_85 (9038 posts) - - Show Bio

nope,that title belongs to cheetah,all of diana's villans represent somethin opposite to her,but cheetah is her archy enemy.

For no really good reason, not even the New 52 seems to have changed that.

#33 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior said:

nope,that title belongs to cheetah,all of diana's villans represent somethin opposite to her,but cheetah is her archy enemy.

For no really good reason, not even the New 52 seems to have changed that.

and i'm glad,if the first born is the best think they can offer as diana's nemesis,they better stay with cheetah instead and give her more screentime outside diana's own book.

#34 Posted by Saren (25681 posts) - - Show Bio

Well since he's not crushing planets with his bare hands to establish a frame of reference for Diana's feats, he must be a horrible villain >.>

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#35 Posted by Netshyster (270 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior: That sums up the First Born also doesn't it? And his hate and malice is on a far greater level than the Cheeta's.

#36 Posted by Netshyster (270 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyway all I know is that the Azz haters are out in full force and as long as he stays on the book, anything he does will be a problem.

#37 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

I always thought of him as a stand-in for Lilith. I find him interesting for that reason because of that gender reversal. They haven't done much with him yet though.

#38 Edited by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

Well since he's not crushing planets with his bare hands to establish a frame of reference for Diana's feats, he must be a horrible villain >.>

actually is diana who became a horrible hero,and i say it based on feats,she is supposed to be a super hero,but she has no real "SUPER" feats in azzarello's book,she ha done nothing that we haven't seen spider-man do.

#39 Posted by Saren (25681 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane said:

Well since he's not crushing planets with his bare hands to establish a frame of reference for Diana's feats, he must be a horrible villain >.>

actually is diana who became a horrible hero,and i say it based on feats,she is supposed to be a super hero,but she has no real "SUPER" feats in azzarello's book,she ha done nothing that we haven't seen spider-man do.

Well, at least all pretense has been dropped.

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#41 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane:azzarello is becoming the new loeb,he also ruins other characters like orion,a colum can ko orion?,really?,the problem with azzarello is that he is unable to introduce good feats into the story,I want a good story too,but again,in a comic book with one of the biggest alpha heroes of the DCU, there should be some room for feats woven *into* a good story,for example London is being destroyed,that's prime material for some good strength feats,Gotta battle the goddess of the moon in the middle of a city? Plenty of things to catch/throw/knock down,Gotta deal with the god of speed? That's just begging for some speed feats,so no need to change the story to integrate superheroic stuff in there somewhere.

#42 Posted by Saren (25681 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior: That's not a problem with Azzarello, it's a problem with how you judge the standards of feats. You want feats to parade them around as proof of Wonder Woman's capabilities; Azzarello literally could not care less for the battle-forum mentality that drives these empty complaints about his run. To Azzarello, fighting and defeating the gods that Wonder Woman has defeated in the 23 issues to date are good feats, organic feats and feats that are respectful to the character. To you, they're not good feats because you can't take them to the battle forum and say "Wonder Woman moved at X km/hr while juggling Y tons, therefore She-Hulk dies". Azzarello isn't writing a story for people who want to argue about Wonder Woman vs Captain Marvel on internet forums. He's writing a story for people who want to read a story.

I wanna say I'm surprised that the people who are unhappy with Azzarello's run "because feats" are comparing him to Loeb of all people, but I'm really not.

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#43 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior: That's not a problem with Azzarello, it's a problem with how you judge the standards of feats. You want feats to parade them around as proof of Wonder Woman's capabilities; Azzarello literally could not care less for the battle-forum mentality that drives these empty complaints about his run. To Azzarello, fighting and defeating the gods that Wonder Woman has defeated in the 23 issues to date are good feats, organic feats and feats that are respectful to the character. To you, they're not good feats because you can't take them to the battle forum and say "Wonder Woman moved at X km/hr while juggling Y tons, therefore She-Hulk dies". Azzarello isn't writing a story for people who want to argue about Wonder Woman vs Captain Marvel on internet forums. He's writing a story for people who want to read a story.

I wanna say I'm surprised that the people who are unhappy with Azzarello's run "because feats" are comparing him to Loeb of all people, but I'm really not.

i couldn't care less about forums,i want wonder woman to do the feats she used to do,so far she has done things even spider-man can do,i don't care about having feats to use in battle forums,i want great feats because it's part of a comic book and because she has been a powerhouse since day one so as a fan that follows her since 1992,i think is understanable that i want to see some highlight moments from DC's main female hero.

#44 Edited by Saren (25681 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't be silly, this isn't the case and you know it.

i don't care about having feats to use in battle forums,i want great feats because it's part of a comic book and because she has been a powerhouse since day one so as a fan that follows her since 1992,i think is understanable that i want to see some highlight moments from DC's main female hero.

Clearly you do, because you're getting "great feats" now. It's just that your definition of "great feats" isn't the same as Azzarello's, and from your side that's because your definition of "great feats" is how the battle forum understands feats. The battle forum introduces arbitrary rules and measures by which to judge the relative "worth" of feats, and it is the same system that you and everyone else on the forum, including me, employs. The battle forum tells you that a feat isn't impressive unless it meets so-and-so standards of reference. And you buy into it, and the accumulation of all those "worthless" feats convinces you that the writer doesn't know how to weave superheroic feats into a story. Essentially most people with this complaint are conflating battle-forum feat standards with plot quality, but anyone could tell them that. Or is there another reason why Wonder Woman beating up gods doesn't qualify as a "great feat"?

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#45 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: gods in comic aren't that impressive unless they have feats to back it up,yes i said great feats,and by great feats i mean feats in wonder woman's category,lifting something heavy,showing high level of durability,using super speed in combat,the type of feats that i'm used to see from wonder woman.

#46 Posted by Saren (25681 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: gods in comic aren't that impressive unless they have feats to back it up,yes i said great feats,and by great feats i mean feats in wonder woman's category,lifting something heavy,showing high level of durability,using super speed in combat,the type of feats that i'm used to see from wonder woman.

This is exactly what I meant.

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#47 Edited by Netshyster (270 posts) - - Show Bio

gokuwarrior has revealed his true self, lol.

#48 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane:what you need to do is stop acting like if you know me ok?,you don't know anything about me to say that i only care about feats so i can go to battle forums,that is not the case at all,so don't act like if you know me,i have been following wonder woman for 21 years,and as a fan i know what i expect from her,i want to see her do the things that she used to do,she lifted a van on azzarello's book,and what?,do you expect me to say that lifting a van is impressive for wonder woman's standard?,being ko by falling from the sky at high speed is impressive for wonder woman's standard?,no it isn't,so try to understand the point here,i have followed her for 21 years,and azzarello's version is just too weak compared to what i have seen from her,any previous version of wonder woman with her powers is more powerful than azzarello's version,even her current version is JL is more powerful than azzarello's version,and that is my complain,i don't like how he seems to be depowering her.

#49 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

gokuwarrior has revealed his true self, lol.

i say the same to you,what you need to do is stop acting like if you know me ok?,you don't know anything about me to say that i only care about feats so i can go to battle forums,that is not the case at all,so don't act like if you know me,i have been following wonder woman for 21 years,and as a fan i know what i expect from her,i want to see her do the things that she used to do,she lifted a van on azzarello's book,and what?,do you expect me to say that lifting a van is impressive for wonder woman's standard?,being ko by falling from the sky at high speed is impressive for wonder woman's standard?,no it isn't,so try to understand the point here,i have followed her for 21 years,and azzarello's version is just too weak compared to what i have seen from her,any previous version of wonder woman with her powers is more powerful than azzarello's version,even her current version is JL is more powerful than azzarello's version,and that is my complain,i don't like how he seems to be depowering her.

#50 Posted by PowerWoman (3380 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior: Dont listen to him,.who in the battle said superman > wonder woman because superman has more feats,he was more talking about feats

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