@gokuwarrior said:

Well first you make an assertion about a writer and then after you make that claim you make another assertion (if its a rhetorical question) that dismisses any counter claim or argument to your first claim but that also renders your very own first assertion moot. Usually people who do this aren't interested in facts or the truth, only spreading their own beliefs around as fact, can you see what I mean by this?

Example - "well your wrong, and even if your right your wrong because what you said doesn't matter anyway because your wrong" thats the basic structure you offer. Thats fair for an opinion.

The reason why what some writers think and say is because "feats" in comics will always be subjective and open to interpretation. Another common name for writers opinions and thoughts is Word of God. In fictional settings like Marvel and DC this is a more complicated arrangement than say Harry Potter, but writers are by virtue of being actual and real, can by virtue of that can provide objective evidence and values about fictional settings and reality. This is why publishers, writers and editors decide what is canon and in continuity and not Captain America or Batman. Naturally. Since there are multiple creators, writers, artists, editors, aren't really many of them whose sole word dictates all creative decisions, more than that consistency among all those creative decisions isn't a priority, producing comics that sell is, which actually means an increased likelihood of discrepancies and inconsistencies. This is why most writers tend to preface their answers to questions about fiction a certain way because anonymous fans online might feel okay with thinking other posters are stupid for not believing in feats that "prove" Silver Surfer destroys Superman, but if Greg Pak told Grant Morrison that he was stupid for having Superman not destroyed by Silver Surfer in a cross over he would be laughed out of the comic industry.

I am not trying to change your mind, but I hope you realize you can't change my mind, because my standards of evidence are much higher, "feats" aren't enough for me, "feats" by definition are subjective and inconsistent, most of the writers writing these "feats" roll their eyes at comic fans who carry on about "feats" solely without realizing the whole fictional aspect to all this. No fictional character has to prove anything to sell the idea they can beat another fictional character for example, its fictional. Can isn't a good word to use in fiction, anything can happen by default. A more accurate way of terming what I think you mean, is that "XYZ character has acquired through various stories a credibility accomplished by their in story actions and demonstrations to pose a bigger threat to another character who also has an established history and consistency as far as accomplishments" and that "XYZ character, based on their history, actions, demonstrations and feats of ability, should based on those things, be written as superior to character BBQ if those two characters were to come to conflict, and oppose each other physically" - isn't no can in fiction, its more like how and why and how consistent/inconsistent is this with other stories.

Short version you care about "feats" and believe they are credible enough to form conclusions on yeah? To me, feats are a quarter of the equation alongside fictional aspects and the ability to be objective and the ability to be skeptical. Hope that helps, take care.

The important thing to note in this second paragraph is that Hulk only reacted faster than multiple human soldiers whereas Diana has reacted faster than superhumans, speedsters, powerhouses and even mythological gods and monsters.And yes, Hulk surviving in the timestream is an impressive feat but it's no proper indication that Hulk is impossible to put down now is it? If you're going to follow this line of argument for Diana not being able to put down Hulk, you may as well say Thor, Hyperion or the Silver Surfer can't put him down now and past encounters and fights have proven otherwise. As for the Eirderdurm waterfall, Thor was in there for quite some time whereas Hulk just jumped in and out to get Thor. The fact is that Thor only suffered falling into unconsciousness from all the time he spent in there. Hulk didn't spend nearly as long in there so we don't know how he'd react to a proper dip. Using that kind of comparison between Hulk and Thor doesn't work here. Diana is nearly as strong as Thor and her striking feats include knocking around DC's top tier powerhouses like Superman and Captain Marvel along with gods and monsters. I wish I had time to post feats for you but since I'm on holiday, I may have to save that for another time. Of course Hulk is stronger and more durable than Diana, there's no doubt about that but given that Diana is amongst DC's finest powerhouses alongside Superman, Martian Manhunter, Captain Marvel, Captain Atom and more, she brings far more to the table than Hulk does.

You underestimate the overall versatility of powerhouses like Wonder Woman in fighting a brute like Hulk. Yes Hulk has drawn blood from someone who's held two planets apart but against a foe in the same strength class as him along with possessing incredible combat speed and reactions with feats to back it up, Hulk is outmatched. In one Pre New 52 issue of JLA, Diana states that she is capable of reacting much faster than Superman. Now this is just a statement and there's conflict over whether it's true but assume it is for a second. Superman can measure the time between nanoseconds and speed up his senses to view the world in slow motion. And Wonder Woman has reacted to his attacks in the multiple times they've fought. She's a trained warrior capable of bringing a fighter and a strategist's mindset to the table. Once she decides to use her speed, it's all over for Hulk as he's shown limited speed and reaction feats in comparison. Once Diana starts to speedblitz the Hulk, she can wear him down as he has been in the past against fights with other powerhouses.

Sorry this is so long and so lately replied to but one last thing. Even if Diana can't physically defeat him, there are two ways she still wins. One is via BFR. A cheap victory but Banner's admitted that if Shield decide to send him to the sun and be done with him, it's game over for him. Diana can do that too. Secondly, there's WW's lasso to consider. It's an unbreakable lasso and no one's broken free via physical force, not even Superman. One super speed hog tie and Hulk is incapacitated. She's even used the lasso to revert possessed people under Queen bee's thrall to normal so it's possible she can make Hulk change back into Bruce Banner if she gets him tied with the lasso.

I agree Pre-52 Wonder Woman would take all of them easily, apart from Thor and Hulk. She´d have her work cut out there. Not sure about Empirion as I don´t know his powers.

Dr. Strange would be difficult, but her resistance to magic should deal with that pretty easily. She could rush him, and break his hands before he has time to say abrakadabra. But if she lets him get off a spell or two she could run into difficulty.

Anyone saying Iron Man, Wolverine or Rogue could take WW is plain crazy. I won´t even bother with Iron Man and Wolverine, its not worthy of my time. However, Rogue, yes she can absorb powers, but thats like her trying to absorb powers from The Gladiator, Hulk, Jugganuaut, or Thor level characters. Her body can´t handle the level of power WW possesses. Thats been seen time and time again when she tries to absorb nonmutants powers, that are based on things like magic or alien physiology. Plus WW could knock her out in one punch. We wouldn´t even be having this conversation if we were talking about Superman. I love Rogue, but thats a no contest right there.

Cap America-

@theacidskull: Great debate guys. Had alot of fun reading it. Hulk and WW will always be difficult for me. My two favorite heroes so I´m very very bias. If it comes down to it, one things for sure, its a hell of a fight, but since I am of the opinion Hulk can beat Superman, I may have to be consistent, with no base strength level and with all his powers increasing as he gets angrier, it will be a tough one for WW. The thing as well is even if she hacks him apart with her sword or Tiara, I believe his healing factor is strong enough to bring him back. Its difficult, but if any core Avenger could take Wondy, its got to be Thor or Hulk.

Well those two are the first, that come to mind, but there's are so many more Avengers to be considered as I have mentioned. I mean you Have Hyperion, Sentry, Blue Marvel, who all have similar attributes, then you have magic based characters Dr.Strange and Scarlet Witch who may be an avatar for chaos magic now, I'm not sure. There's also cosmic level characters Captain Universe and Starbrand ( whom I posted a scan off facing Thor, Hyperion, and Hulk ). These characters in my opinion would probably defeat if you truly look into their backgrounds. A more suitable battle would be WW< against one of the She-Hulks, Ms. Marvel/Captain Marvel, Sif, Valkyrie, and or Angela ( If you have knowledge of that character. Thor is my favorite and I will continue to state his case, in which I hardly believe is necessary here, he has more suprises to him than a Kracker Jack box when it comes to powers.

@sc feats are important because they represent the capabilities of the characters,you can't say it doesn't matter,they are inconsistent when stupid writters make plot devices where street level characters do things way out of their league and they water down powerhouses,but if we talk about being consistent,through his career superman has had consistent feats 80% of the time that put him above hulk and thor,the same with wonder woman compared to ironman,namor,savage hulk,wonder man.

so it's not an speculaion,it's based on their regular showings,the kind of feats that they have performed the most through the years.

@evilvegeta74:pre 52 wonder woman is much more powerful than she-hulk,ms marvel,sif,valkyrie,can you stop putting her in a lower league?,"if you know this characters" you said,if you knew wonder woman you wouldn't put her in a league with characters way belowe her level.

@gokuwarrior said:

I didn't read past this point, because I never said that feats "don't matter" so you either lack the ability to comprehend my post, you would rather assume than ask me questions, or you are just here to argue with others that don't share your view or something else, feel free to clarify. For the record, I do think that "feats" are important, I already said that I take them into consideration, I just don't think they are the only thing that matters. Its like if someone says that only a burger matters in a combo. Then if I say, actually I like the drink and chips, then the other person assuming that means I don't think the burger matters at all. Two different concepts.

Which means from here two things can happen, you can ask me some questions, if anything I said didn't make sense to you, I am happy to answer questions, or we can cover ourselves in animal blood and fight to the death on the moon. ^_^

Can you stop trying dictate what I should not say unless you can actually validate something which you have not here. You just keep popping out like a jack in the box. Why don't you make an attempt at debunking the characters I named who I have been naming through out the thread, you have haven't stated why these character couldn't defeat WW: mean you Have Hyperion, Sentry, Blue Marvel, who all have similar attributes, then you have magic based characters Dr.Strange and Scarlet Witch who may be an avatar for chaos magic now, I'm not sure. There's also cosmic level characters Captain Universe and Starbrand ( whom I posted a scan off facing Thor, Hyperion, and Hulk ). These characters in my opinion would probably defeat if you truly look into their backgrounds . Until you have your Wonder Woman can defeat them line, will continue to remain at the level of a child argument , case and point " My robot can beat yours, why?, because my robot is Blue" This s what you sound like here, do you not understand this? I'm not trying to be funny, just honest! Step up your game or you will get ignored. Now that being said, go power up. You've disappointed me for five pages.

@evilvegeta74:i already posted proof and you ignored it,she-hulk is weaker than WW,she is way slower,not as durable and not as good as a fighter not even close,valkyrie is much weaker than WW,so is ms marvel and sif.

@sc:again,if we talk about being consistent,through his career superman has had consistent feats 80% of the time that put him above hulk and thor,the same with wonder woman compared to ironman,namor,savage hulk,wonder man.

so it's not an speculaion,it's based on their regular showings,the kind of feats that they have performed the most through the years.

@gokuwarrior said:

Now nothing you say here actually addresses anything I said, as far as i can tell. I never said anything was speculation either?

@sc:i don't know what you want to prove,because the important thing is to compare consistent feats between characters when we want to know who will win,i don't know what other topic you need to consider in a random fight,if we talk about creating a certain situation to give a certain character the edge,that is not a random fight based on power and skills alone.

@gokuwarrior said:

I don't want you to prove anything, I think your approach is fine, your the one that quoted me and addressed my post remember =p

Just because you want to know something, does't mean you can, I abide to the null hypothesis over "feats", presumably you do not correct? Also I abide to argumentum ad ignorantiam over feats as well. Those are more important, those are principles that apply themselves in science, philosophy, discussions, debate, and arguments to do with religion, politics, ethics, much more important things than "Battles" and comics, but just because thats my approach doesn't mean I mind if you personally find feats the most or only important thing to consider. I think they matter but I am sorry I also think other things are equally if not more valid. I hope you understand where we differ.

@sc:i said feats are important when we have a debate about 2 characters fighting,it's the only way to compare and know who will win,i never said that feats are more important than the quality of the story,if that is what you thought.

@gokuwarrior said:

I don't personally think "feats" are the only way to compare characters fighting. As fictional characters they are privy to creative processes and feats are always dependent on circumstance, any circumstance isn't always established clearly. Like could you tell me what kind of mutant classification is Vulcan from X-men stories? Also know is from knowledge, knowledge is demonstrable, applying terms like know as far as fiction is hazardous. Really the best we can do is to have educated and reasoned guesses, or estimates based on things like feats. Depending on standards of evidence and application of words like knowledge naturally.

I agree with you, story quality is important too ^_^

@sc:it's true that there can be certain situations that could give a character the edge,but that wouldn't be a fight about power and skills only,and i was talking about standards,for example superman's standard when it comes to feats is above hulk and thor,because when you look at most of superman's feats thorough the years you'll see that he has a very long list of consistent feats that put him above thor and hulk,the same with wonder woman compared to namor,wonder man,iron-man,savage hulk.

@gokuwarrior said:

To you, its irrelevant, but to others all situations have favorable and unfavorable elements in a given time or situation. Character motivations, desires, emotions, psychological state, all are important fluctuating factors ever present. Thats just one example.

Then you make an assertion, and thats fine, but feats by virtue of being fictional are subjective. Now I just made an assertion, do you agree or disagree? Since if we don't agree at that point, then we can't even begin to talk about the validity of your assertion. Can I ask you two questions? Do you know what mutant category Vulcan started off as being in, and do you know what the null hypothesis is?

because they are fictional characters feats are subjective?,no,because there is an standard,if 80% of superman's feats have been consistently written in a certain level then i can assume without a doubt that it's consistent and that this is his usual level,so when i compare the usual showings of the characters i will be able to know which one will win in a random fight,a fight with certain situatins aren't random fights and they can't determinate the winner based on power and skills which is the point of a random fight.

@maccyd said:

Cap America-

Totally

• Hulk
• Sentry
• Hercules
• Thor
• Hyperion
• Red Hulk
• Scarlet Witch
• Dr. Strange

Lifting Thor's hammer was obviously non canon, So assuming she can't lift it Thor would Take her, So could the Sentry. if you're including the cosmic Avengers then There would be the Silver Surfer and Beta Ray bill as well. Hyperion would have a decent chance as would Carol davers (Captain Marvel) since on top of her standard powers she now has the Nega bands and still retains her ability to go Bianary.

Captain Universe is currently on the Avengers and is far above Diana in power.

oh and the Hulk is not physically touching Diana, she is too fast.

and Snowbird's speed let her get the Better of Hercules in a fist fight. So i bet Diana could Replicate the feat and if she couldn't she has a bunch of other powers to edge out an advantage.

Perceived standards or otherwise, its still by virtue of definition subjective. Do you want to know how you get something to be objective? Have it be based in reality and objectively true. You assuming something is true is your standard of evidence. If i told you that my standard of evidence meant you should give me all your money is that good with you or are you skeptical? You still assume that fights can be determined instead of guessed at. Also you haven't answered my questions. They help establish why your assuming. What's up with that =p

you can't ask for logic and rality when you compare characters that contradict the physical laws,and you can't guess who will win,you need to have actual evidence,the feats are the only way,so i can guess that spider-man can one-shotte superman?,really?,based on what?,sorry but every character is usually written in a certain way,a certain level that is reflected in the feats and we need to go by that to have a more accurate analysis of who would win..

#

@

I've gotten this from him the whole thread!

We agree 100% here! Great choices! I'd add Blue Marvel for what he did to King Hyperion and the Sentry.

And here we go again, why do you keep choosing to not address the characters from the Avengers I named, it sounds to me like you agree that they would probably win in battle. Once again here's your chance and the list, I emplore you to address the reason Wonder Woman could win for each character. You claim you have addressed my choices , so this should be easy explain to the people ho have posted on this thread . It should be pretty simple since you claim you already addressed them, let me see, all you have to do is go back in the thread, and cut and paste , because you said you addressed these characters , (I just wanted to put that out there, according to you) . Have at it!

Here's your list:

1. Hyperion

2.Sentry

3.Blue Marvel

4. Hulk Red/Green, who all have similar attributes

Then you have magic based characters

5.Dr.Strange

6.Scarlet Witch, who may be an avatar for chaos magic now, I'm not sure.

7.Captain Universe

8.Starbrand ( whom I posted a scan off facing Thor, Hyperion, and Hulk ).

@evilvegeta74:WW beats she-hulk cos WW is stronger,more durable,much faster and a much better fighter,WW beats namor cos she is much stronger,much more durable,much faster and a much better fighter,the same reason for WW vs ms marvel.

@youmessinwithme:wonder woman is much more powerful than ms marvel,and pre 52 wonder woman can beat binary without a doubt,hercules is helpess against her speed and she is a better fighter.

1.No he doesn't you just pulled 80% out of your ^*&%# I gaurantte if you actually did a side by side comparison of Thor, Gladiator, Drax the Destroyer etc. (top teirs from Marvel) Actually have more consistent showings at a level above Superman's or actually read Thor's series he's written to be way above superman most of the time or atleast on his level. Of course Thor has some showing which make him look pathetic when compared to Superman's highest showings, but the exact same thing happens vice versa if you compared Superman's low showings to Thor's cosmic level showings.

2. No she isn't she's portrayed as a couple dozen times stronger than Ironman, Wonder man or Namor based on her feats Ironman's biggest feat is moving a nuclear reactor, Namor's an oil tanker or cruise liner and wonder man's stopping the avengers hydro base from tipping over witht the hekp of the invisible women's FF's for support (only tipping not lifting most of the weight was still being supported from directly underneath from the ground) Diana catches Meteorite's Ad helps move the moon and the earth, as well as punching people to outer space and taking punches to the dome that blast her hundreds of thousands of kilometer's without being injured. She's written way above ironman and Namor bro....

I see you concede then! I just wanted the people on the thread see you not address this list again!

Here's your list:

1. Hyperion

2.Sentry

3.Blue Marvel

4. Hulk Red/Green, who all have similar attributes

Then you have magic based characters

5.Dr.Strange

6.Scarlet Witch, who may be an avatar for chaos magic now, I'm not sure.

7.Captain Universe

8.Starbrand ( whom I posted a scan off facing Thor, Hyperion, and Hulk ).

@gokuwarrior said:

Yet you (like many) are the one attempting to draw conclusions with the characters? When identifying evidence "feats", comparing it (some feats over others) and then drawing conclusions is a logical process grounded by reality? Thats okay, but it invites skepticism and other types of logic processes and arguments.

If Spider-man started gaining popularity for being a powerhouse and Superman started being written as weaker and both characters started selling 10 times as many comic issues as a result then yeah, maybe in 40 years Spider-man could and would one shot Superman in a cross over. Thats one scenario out of countless scenarios. The reasons to do with why Spider-man won't one shot Superman also have reasons that have nothing to do with feats either, more to do with again, real life non Battles reasons. The two aren't exclusive. Superman didn't use to be able to fly either at one point for example, and some kid probably said to another kid, "Hey Billy, thats silly, I guess Superman will be flying soon huh chuckle chuckle" So its not a matter of guessing what "should" happen, but what could happen and why and its a fact that because they are fictional anything can happen. Do you understand that? Based on what? Based on fiction.

If you can even answer a question on what null hypothesis is, why should I or anyone believe your assertions on what is more important when claiming who wins? Feats are reflective of the character, not the other way around, writers write stories and characters, some fans like you? Some of you guys might think that feats come first now before you said stories are more important, yet your wording here prioritizes feats yet again.

@youmessinwithme:i clearly stated that she is way more powerful than namor,iron-man and wonder man,nut just in strength but in speed,durability,skills,but that user "evilvegeta" thinks that ironman,namor,wonderman even wolverine can be a match for her,so you should respond to him.

@sc:"if superman starting to be written as weaker",but he isn't being written that way so can you asume that spider-man can one shotte him?,NO,and why do you talk about crossovers based on piopularity?,you want actual facts and now you want to determinate who is superior in a fight based on popularity?,by that ogic batman could defeat god.

i was talking about standard,for example we know that superman is consistently being written as more powerful than spider-man,hulk,so why can't i asume that he would win in a fight?,we need the feats to know who will win because otherwise we don't have material,all of them have been wriotten as superhumans but not at the same level,so we compare their usual showings and that's how we arrive to a conlusion about who would win.

I took off Wolvie and Namor is a maybe. The eight or nine including Rogue are the ones you are avoiding! Stark is there because of a brilliant mind. I believe he could possibly find a way to depower WW which wuld lead to her defeat. See how simply I explained a possible theory, that's all I ask from you, instead of WW defeat ---- because she is stronger. Explain yourself in short if possible.

how do you depower the new 52 wonder woman?

Why compare the two companies. Most of DC characters are OP. Everyone knows that. I like Captain Marvel better and that matters in my books.

@evilvegeta74:namor is not a maybe because he is way outclassed by wonder woman,so is ms marvel,she-hulk and rogue,rogue won't survive the first punch,if you knew how hard and fast wonder woman can strike you would know that,ms arvel wouldn't survive a full powered hit from wonder woman,a bloodlusted wonder woman killed a semi-god in one hit,ms marvel is not taking a full powered hit from wonder woman either,namor can't take it either.

I already Said Herc would be done based on Wonder woman's speed.

But the Original Captain Mar-Vell(who is would be much weaker, slower and less Durable etc. than Carol without the bands) when he was Captain Mar-vell (wore the bands) He went toe to toe with Thanos, and Drax the Destroyer (who is a planet and Star buster) and once got punched all the way from the moon too the the earth by Thanos and blasted a massive crater on impact without being KO'ed

Rogue when she had Ms. Marvel's powers(which were much weaker back then, then They are now) got punched into orbit without being KOed

And Carol wearing the Bands has Already tossed the Hulk in from orbit like he was a freaking metore, and Dropped Hyperion with a Punch(and he's survived multiple planets blowing up in his face and has gone toe to toe with some serious level heavy hitters) and that's without going Bianary.

When she was Bianary she once Destroyed under her own power an entire world.

She now is more powerful than rogue ever was with her powers, wields the Nega Bands and all their power and has the Ability to go Bianary (which we legitimately don't know how powerful it would even be working in tandem)

So all though i respect your opinion if you think Pre new 52 Diana would beat Her, I Think That you may be selling Carol a little short. and also I didn't say Diana couldn't beat Carol either, But I Belive Carol as Captain Marvel, having gone Bianary is one of the Few avengers that could Take a Majority against Diana. But i belive Diana could totoally beat her too.

@youmessinwithme:rogue with classi ms marvel powers was owned by binary,rogue wasn't ko because binary wasn't going all out.

carol wearing the bands is still weaker than WW,WW could also toss hulk,she didn't defeat hymperion,you can beat that WW has the power to dropp hyperion too,i haven't seen her power as binary in the last year i don't know what she has done but WW has also fought very well against planet busters like binary.

@gokuwarrior said:

Here again, I never ever said he was being written this way, I proposed a hypothetical situation. So why would you make this redundant point? If you can't actually understand any points I make, why should I try to make points or understand your points sincerely? At the very least you could try actually asking and answering sincerely. I'll give you an example of what you have tended to do.

Oh so now you are saying that Superman beats up Galactus and Living Tribunal now huh? That makes no sense, at all. I use a basis for consistency.

hulk,red-hulk and hercules can't beat WW.

@youmessinwithme: Drax destroy Star nothing to do his strength,because sun'core isnt solid ,sun'core is plasma state,when drax pull sun'core(a unknow of size star)that not raw strength as all,It doesn't matter how strong you think Drax is, his hands would go straight through the material and would never be able to get a grasp on it.he has to use some energy's power to affect'core

also,when thanos vs drax destroy a planet,we dont know this size,mass,density,it's could be as big as our earth or Jupiter or other any possible planets of size,Unless we know the size of the planet, or is unable to quantify

And,The planet destroyed itself. Thanos and Drax just created an instability to cause the chain reaction.Read the panel carefully and you will see their grappling cause the ebbs and flow to be out of balance. This caused an instability in the planet which in turn caused the planet to destroy itself.

Thanos and Drax didn't destroy the planet directly (as in supply all of the power) but rather they just started an irreversible chain reaction that ultimately lead to the planet's demise.

so,even drax can destroy planet,he need thanos,and PLANET ITSELF to help him done it

Tony Stark has depowered the Hulk and She Hulk using nanites, Amadeus Cho another genius showed the She Hulk how to get her power back by drinking grape soda! Nanites have been used on King Hyperion the killer of heroes on multiple earths in the Thunderbolts as well just to prove how well nanites work

@youmessinwithme said:

YEY not many people remember/know that about Rogue - that was an awesome showing ^__^

Yes I know she is but when going Bianary her strngth increases as well. i'm saying a Combination of the Three (her base powers, the Bands, and Bianary form) make her a contender against WW.

and who has Diana fought that has actually destroyed a planet?

i said spider-man and hulk as an examples,i didn't mention galactus or the living tribunal,you know very well that superman is consistenly written in a certain level that is way above characters like spiderman and hulk so i used them as an example that there is no need to think that feats can't determinate who wins in a random fight,because every character shows its capabilities through the feats,otherwise characters like spiderman,hulk and superman would be the same because they are all in the superhuman category,but they aren't the same,superman is consistently written in a higher level than them that is shown through his feats,so there is no need to "guess",because when we compare their usual showins we get a very good idea of the their own limits and we can arrive to an accurate conclusion about who would win.

@gokuwarrior: Do you concede?

Here's your list:

1. Hyperion

2.Sentry

3.Blue Marvel

4. Hulk Red/Green, who all have similar attributes

Then you have magic based characters

5.Dr.Strange

6.Scarlet Witch, who may be an avatar for chaos magic now, I'm not sure.

7.Captain Universe

8.Starbrand ( whom I posted a scan off facing Thor, Hyperion, and Hulk ).