Was it really that bad?

#1 Posted by Knightwing (333 posts) - - Show Bio

I once visited a thread where a lot of people disliked the fact that Wonderwoman was made a murderer by killing Maxwell Lord. Personally, I thought that was great character development playing out. Some didn't like Identity Crisis because Sue Dibny was killed and raped, saying that there was no opinion from Sue herself. I mean Nightwing was raped but there wasn't much uproar about it so why Sue? Some even complained about the writer who made Mary Marvel powerless and falling from the sky as a sign of sexism. I used to suppourt women's rights but aren't you taking this too far and creating websites like this:

http://cbddossiers.blogspot.com/2007_02_01_archive.html

I'm sorry, this stuff is freaking me out so I need an opinion.

#2 Posted by Ms. Invisible (3292 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightwing was raped? It's usually the other way round: when a male is sexually abused, that's where the uproar is.

As for the Wonder Woman issue, I really don't mind that she was labelled murderer, only because I myself don't think she was one for doing so. If you take a closer look, Greg Rucka actually explores the perception of truth when she uses her lasso. Superman himself is confident that there must've been another way to stop the mind controlling, even though WW's lasso didn't reveal such a thing. So when Maxwell Lord told Wonder Woman to kill him, was that the actual truth, or just his perception of the truth?

And so there's this whole issue about perception. You have WW who killed Medousa as well, but she had the face of a monster, so that wasn't considered a murder. Yet Lord is a human, and when she killed him, it looked as if she killed an innocent person. Wonder Woman wasn't deemed murderer because she killed Lord, but the perception the people saw thanks to Brother Eye, which made her look like a cold-blooded murderer. So that's why I don't think she's a murderer.

And for that blog there, I don't think it's that bad. You have the Women in Refrigerators site which basically points out how women have fallen, whether it be depowering or dealing with personal issues, much like this blog. I think the writer is just pointing out what he thinks is sexist. You don't always have to agree.

#3 Posted by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio

Women in Refrigerators is one of the biggest bunches of bull I've ever seen (okay, maybe not but it's still a huge bunch of bull).

Half the dead and depowered women on the list are back in action.

I love how Tarot and Roulette are on the list. They were killed at the exact same time and way as the male characters on their team: Jetstream, Empath, Beef, and Bevatron. If somebody kills 3 women and 4 men at the same time, he's not doing it to bring down women.

Same deal with Celsius and Elastigirl. Grant Morison scrapped most of the previous Doom Patrol and it wasn't like the Originals (except Robotman) got off any better than Rita. Mento went insane and became a villain, the Chief went insane and spent most of his time as a severed head drinking milkshakes. But no no. I'm sure Rita and Celsius' deaths occured to bring down women. (Rita is back in action btw.)

Then there's Redwing of team titans who died...right along with Killowat, Dagon, Prestor Jon and Battalion. Another prime example of using women and women only as cannonfodder. eye roll

Moving on, we have the complaint that Blink (616) is dead. She appeared in what? One issue? Lets all shed a tear for bystander #3 who also appeared in only one issue and died.

A personal favorite is Dove II. First of all, Dove II isn't dead last I checked (I'm optomistic about the Titans East Special because if all those characters are actually dead, it'll have been a terrible terrible waste. I bet only Power Boy doesn't make it out alive). Secondly, Dove I (a male) is. Thirdly, Dove II's series (plus five issue mini) ran over 3 times as long as Dove I's. Granted, I think Dawn is much cooler than Don but lets not pretend that Dawn was the one who got the short end of the stick. Or if we compare Dove II to Hawk I (who was her partner), Hawk became evil and then died. Yet again, Dove II comes out on top. If anything, males are used as cannon fodder in the Hawk and Dove comics.

As far as Wonder Woman's "murder" of "Max," I think the only problem with it was that Max was a bad guy in the first place and had previously killed Blue Beetle (horrendously out of character as it turns out) and the way they handled it after the fact. With the lasso wrapped around him, he told Wonder Woman that she would have to kill him to free Superman. So she did. Good call Wonder Woman.
Post Edited:2008-03-09 07:46:03

#4 Posted by Ms. Invisible (3292 posts) - - Show Bio

If you're referring to the Women in Refrigerators site, that site hasn't been updated since 1997, so you'll have to email Gail Simone if you want it up-to-date.

#5 Posted by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh I don't care about it getting updated because the general premise is flawed.

I'm sure there are some female characters who are horribly wronged (Alex DeWitt especially), maybe even more than male characters that are horribly wronged.

However, she completely shot her arguement in the foot by adding tons of characters to the list that obviously didn't belong there.

#6 Posted by Methos (40103 posts) - - Show Bio

Ms. Invisible says:

"Nightwing was raped? It's usually the other way round: when a male is sexually abused, that's where the uproar is."

Kyle Rayner was raped... by another bloke as well...

M


Post Edited:2008-03-09 08:20:45

#7 Posted by Ms. Invisible (3292 posts) - - Show Bio

Zoom says:

"Oh I don't care about it getting updated because the general premise is flawed."

Then why did you point out the flaws in the list if you don't care?

Also WiR doesn't just refer to the female characters on that list, so don't think such a concept is flawed if you're going to pin it on that list; there's plenty of WiR stuff happening today.

#8 Posted by Knightwing (333 posts) - - Show Bio

Ms. Invisible says:

"Nightwing was raped? It's usually the other way round"

Heck even I was surprised about that, even those sites which advertises comics would have even hinted about that. What I completely dislike about the website whose link I posted, is that it's taking this a little too seriously. Gail started it for fun and no to discriminate writers. Sometimes when writing a comic you just don't notice that you are being unfair to women. It wasn't until I heard about WiF that I started to see the unfairness towards women. Mostly I just believe that when a female character is depowered or does something that's done for character development. Most writers think like that too, it wasn't until the WiF that they begin to see others perspective. Wonderwoman killing Maxwell Lord can be the courages thing a hero had done but there have been other stories which shows superheroes and all of them show a morally challenged, gritty characters who kills for pleasure or other demented reason.

"And for that blog there, I don't think it's that bad."

But I notice they are taking this a lot more seriously than Gail Simone did.

1. Huntress: they see her being sexually abused as a child a problem. But...everytime

             I ever picked up a newspaper (and that's very rare), there is always              stories about child abuse, suicide, child rape, teen rape, drug abuse,             all of them which involve young girls. Huntress being such a victim              and fighting against it makes her something of a role model towards              such victims.             Hulk was beaten as a child by his father so how is that unfair to women.

Elektra: She just need a good team of writers.

Barbra Gordon: She is in a wheelchair but....became a better asset to the JLA and

               BoP.

Wonderwoman: She was depowered and killed. Superman was killed, Blue Beetle is dead

              and replaced forever (until DC's management changes). Batman's back is              broke in half by Bane.

Talia: She was tortured by her sister N'ysaa Al Ghul. The good side to it was that it

       wasn't by a guy this time. The argument there is that it ruined her character.        At least she disawowed her love for Batman which would have made for a lot of       interesting stories but they weren't trying hard enough.

So you see my point, last decade the superheroes were getting the spotlight, Hal became Parallax, Superman was killed, Batman was injured and replaced. Now I guess they are just trying to do the same to female characters with not so good looking results. There is a Bird's of Prey Series, a Huntress mini series coming up and a Wonderwoman animated movie coming up.


Post Edited:2008-03-09 11:33:10

#9 Posted by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio

Ms. Invisible says:

"Zoom says:
"Oh I don't care about it getting updated because the general premise is flawed."
Then why did you point out the flaws in the list if you don't care? Also WiR doesn't just refer to the female characters on that list, so don't think such a concept is flawed if you're going to pin it on that list; there's plenty of WiR stuff happening today."

Just because I don't care about say Barry Bonds as a person doesn't mean that I don't think he's wrong to use steroids (discussion over whether or not just about everyone in the MLB is on steroids aside).

Just because I don't care about Gail Simone's website providing a perfect list of women who have been wronged in comic books doesn't mean I don't think it's a flawed list.

And sure, there are still plenty of female characters who get screwed over these days. Same goes for males. The fact of the matter is, characters in general get screwed over all the time. I don't think we're biased towards women.

The fact that such a high percentage of the list is made up of females that died alongside their male teammates illustrates the fact that Gail Simone couldn't come up with enough women who were actually wronged because they were women or rather characters that the writers didn't care about wronging because they were women (if any such characters exist).

To draw a comparison, lets say we lived in a city that for simplicities sake was 50% hispanic and 50% white.

If I pointed out several gangs that were about 50% hispanic and 50% white and tried to blame gang violence on hispanics, you'd say I was crazy.

Thus, since the WiR site provides such a weak arguement, I've always dismissed it as a bunch of baloney.

But if you truely think that women are killed/depowered in comics as plot devices disproportionatly to men, and if you are so inclined, by all means convince me. I'm sure you can do a better job than a website that hasn't been updated in about 10 years.

#10 Posted by Queen Kong (1603 posts) - - Show Bio

Wonder Woman killing a man? I expected that to happen long ago.I wouldn't expect that from Power Girl..but Diana,totally.
Post Edited:2008-03-09 22:54:09

#11 Posted by Knightwing (333 posts) - - Show Bio

Queen Kong says:

"Wonder Woman killing a man? I expected that to happen long ago.I wouldn't expect that from Power Girl..but Diana,totally.
Post Edited:2008-03-09 22:54:09"

Yeah she's got that warrior thing going on so it makes sense.

#12 Posted by fesak (7031 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not going to pretend i know so much about WW, but i assume she's been alive and fighting for centuries, right? So it would be stupid to think there wouldn't be casualties. Almost as stupid as the retcon that Hulk never killed anyone.

Moderator
#13 Posted by Ms. Invisible (3292 posts) - - Show Bio

Zoom says:

"Just because I don't care about say Barry Bonds as a person doesn't mean that I don't think he's wrong to use steroids (discussion over whether or not just about everyone in the MLB is on steroids aside).Just because I don't care about Gail Simone's website providing a perfect list of women who have been wronged in comic books doesn't mean I don't think it's a flawed list.

Then my apologies.

And sure, there are still plenty of female characters who get screwed over these days. Same goes for males. The fact of the matter is, characters in general get screwed over all the time. I don't think we're biased towards women.The fact that such a high percentage of the list is made up of females that died alongside their male teammates illustrates the fact that Gail Simone couldn't come up with enough women who were actually wronged because they were women or rather characters that the writers didn't care about wronging because they were women (if any such characters exist).To draw a comparison, lets say we lived in a city that for simplicities sake was 50% hispanic and 50% white.If I pointed out several gangs that were about 50% hispanic and 50% white and tried to blame gang violence on hispanics, you'd say I was crazy.Thus, since the WiR site provides such a weak arguement, I've always dismissed it as a bunch of baloney.But if you truely think that women are killed/depowered in comics as plot devices disproportionatly to men, and if you are so inclined, by all means convince me. I'm sure you can do a better job than a website that hasn't been updated in about 10 years."

Yeah, I agree, males characters are getting screwed up too. But why do you think that WiR is only available for women? You yourself can bring up a "Men in Refrigerators" concept because no one's stopping you. Did I say you are biased towards women? No. But unfortunately, there are men out there like that. Also, Gail Simone didn't make the list so people could feel sorry for female characters. No way did Gail say that it doesn't happen to male characters.

With the paragraph with Gail Simone in it, are you saying that her not being able to create female characters that shouldn't and can't be wronged is her fault? Why are you solely blaming it on her? The reason why I think she's so popular today is because she can write characters well, either male OR female. Yes, she is known for writing female characters very well but I don't doubt that she can write male characters as well (I believe she wrote for Deadpool when she started her mainstream comics career. Whether that went well or not is up to you to decide). I'm not sure about you, but when people ask me who my favourite female writer is, I say Gail Simone. When people ask me who my favourite male writers are, I have to stop and ponder for a while. Male writers are part of the problem too. If you say that male characters are getting killed off for plot advancement, and you think that's unfair, look at who's writing the story. It's most likely a male writer (and just for the record, I'm not saying all male writers can't write female characters. John Bryne and George Perez wrote Wonder Woman wonderfully - no pun intended).

I think you're missing part of the concept as well. Yes, it is about killing off female characters, but killing off female characters so the male's own character can develop is something else; plot advancement is only part of it. So can you tell me a male character that was killed off for the advancement for the sake of the female character?

And lastly, I'm not going to convince you whether or not the WiR concept could be valid or not, because I don't have time to do it due to my living circumstances. There is no point either. If I bring a list to you, you yourself will bring a list, I will bring a list and so it goes on. It doesn't achieve anything.
Post Edited:2008-03-10 05:33:07

#14 Posted by Ms. Invisible (3292 posts) - - Show Bio

Knightwing says:

"Heck even I was surprised about that, even those sites which advertises comics would have even hinted about that. What I completely dislike about the website whose link I posted, is that it's taking this a little too seriously. Gail started it for fun and no to discriminate writers. Sometimes when writing a comic you just don't notice that you are being unfair to women. It wasn't until I heard about WiF that I started to see the unfairness towards women. Mostly I just believe that when a female character is depowered or does something that's done for character development. Most writers think like that too, it wasn't until the WiF that they begin to see others perspective.

I think you have to realise that while the site "is taking it too far", it's not just comics. Comics have impacted us so much that we read the messages behind the stories, if that was the intention of the writer; that's how some of us see comics as. You look at Greek mythology and Medusa. She was a very pretty woman who was a priestess at Athena's temple (I believe she was) and it made Athena really jealous. So Athena had turned Medusa into the Medusa we know today, who was meant to be ugly and have snakes as hair. Later on, she was killed in her sleep. While I do not know of any stories that are completely like the story of Medusa, you can still see mistreatment of women today (for example, Scarlet Witch in Avenger's Dissembled, Tigra and her getting beat up because the writer couldn't see that it was totally out of character for her to do so). If you read the bible, who is blamed for Adam eating the apples? Eve is, yet Adam had free will to choose not to eat the apple; who is it blamed on? The woman, of course. And how long ago did those things happen? A looonnng time ago, yet we still see it today. It just shows how far feminists really have to go.

The reason why the people (like the link you gave us to the blog) are "taking it too seriously" is because it's the whole history of women. You hear that sentence, "She asked for it," usually when someone wants to blame the woman for starting it. It's usually associated with rape. So a woman asked to be raped? Erm, no, I don't think so. And then you have women who were not taken seriously. Let's look at the 20s, women were still to be kept at home because there was actually a theory that women had smaller brains than men. It was history I learned four years ago, so I can't source it, so you are free to disregard that. Even so, women were kept at home because they were seen as incapable human beings who could not go about their daily affairs. It was the man who controlled the woman, and if a woman got out of line, they blamed it on the man (see the sexism done towards men as well?!).

Reading this, you would agree me with, would you not? See, when women have such a history in terms of equality of the sexes, and they see it in comics, it doesn't translate so well. Women (and some men) have been fighting for equality of the sexes for so long now, to see it in comics is just really narrow-minded (at least that's what I think). It's a bit like, "Well there's more crap added to the pile. Guess I better start working on it tonight."

Also, you have to note that the author of the blog isn't saying this isn't happening to male characters too. While they are merely pointing out the female characters, it doesn't mean that they are not acknowledging the sexism towards male as well (well, I can't speak for the author of that blog, but I certainly do know it does exist and I don't like it just as much as you do; remember, equality of sexes, people!).

"And for that blog there, I don't think it's that bad."

But I notice they are taking this a lot more seriously than Gail Simone did.

1. Huntress: they see her being sexually abused as a child a problem. But...everytime

             I ever picked up a newspaper (and that's very rare), there is always              stories about child abuse, suicide, child rape, teen rape, drug abuse,             all of them which involve young girls. Huntress being such a victim              and fighting against it makes her something of a role model towards              such victims.             Hulk was beaten as a child by his father so how is that unfair to women.

Elektra: She just need a good team of writers.

Barbra Gordon: She is in a wheelchair but....became a better asset to the JLA and

               BoP.

Wonderwoman: She was depowered and killed. Superman was killed, Blue Beetle is dead

              and replaced forever (until DC's management changes). Batman's back is              broke in half by Bane.

Talia: She was tortured by her sister N'ysaa Al Ghul. The good side to it was that it

       wasn't by a guy this time. The argument there is that it ruined her character.        At least she disawowed her love for Batman which would have made for a lot of       interesting stories but they weren't trying hard enough.

So you see my point, last decade the superheroes were getting the spotlight, Hal became Parallax, Superman was killed, Batman was injured and replaced. Now I guess they are just trying to do the same to female characters with not so good looking results. There is a Bird's of Prey Series, a Huntress mini series coming up and a Wonderwoman animated movie coming up.


Post Edited:2008-03-09 11:33:10"

For Huntress, I think it's rather the theory that rape empowers a woman. Though I beg to differ. Rape breaks down people as well, and some rarely do recover from such a traumatic experience.

Elektra: well, you said what I wanted to say. She needs a team of good writers. But where are they?

Babs: See, I actually like her in a wheelchair too; there need to be more disabled/paraplagic people represented in comics these days, but do you think they could have a superheroine that has been debilitated, while at the same have another superheroine who does not need to be crippled?

Talia: Don't know much about Talia so I can't speak for her, but taken from the blog: "The whole premise involving Nyssa, while we’re on the subject, is decidedly offensive, since it depicts her as even more one-dimensional in her whole notion of revenge than Magneto, who, like her, was also written as a Holocaust survivor." I think what the author is saying is that Magneto was a Holocaust survivor and he has become one of the most powerful villains in the Marvel U.

Hal became Parallax, he ended up defeating it, and but he became the same Hal we know today. He rebuilt himself and repaired his friendship with Batman. Superman was killed and while he was resurrected, that's not that point. He still became the Superman we know today, and if you look at Superman: Doomsday, it was a clone that was being out of character, not the actual Superman himself. I'm not really sure what you're want to say with Batman and him being replaced; you'll have to elaborate further.

You know, sometimes people tell me, "What's the problem?" when I point out sexist stuff about women. Sometimes I feel like throwing my hand into a brick wall. It's not because this happens in comics, it's because of the past history as well that just amplifies the problems I see in comics.

I am also pretty excited about the BoP, Huntress and Wonder Woman thing too.

#15 Posted by Darkchild (40624 posts) - - Show Bio

Methos says:

"Ms. Invisible says:
"Nightwing was raped? It's usually the other way round: when a male is sexually abused, that's where the uproar is."

Kyle Rayner was raped... by another bloke as well...

M


Post Edited:2008-03-09 08:20:45"

ROFLMMFAO

I cant BREATH

#16 Posted by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio

Ms. Invisible says:

Then my apologies.

Oh, none needed. :)

Yeah, I agree, males characters are getting screwed up too. But why do you think that WiR is only available for women? You yourself can bring up a "Men in Refrigerators" concept because no one's stopping you.

I do enough complaining on the internet, thanks. :-p

But I do think a list of all terribly wronged characters (like say all of the Hellions) would be more pertainant than just listing the female or male ones.

That being said, there is an extent where in order to make a villain seem like a threat or in order to establish the evilness of said villain, they must do something bad to somebody. Did DC wrong Superboy by killing him off? Or was it worth it to establish Super Boy Prime as an evil and dangerous villain?

Also, Gail Simone didn't make the list so people could feel sorry for female characters. No way did Gail say that it doesn't happen to male characters.

Certainly that was not her goal. I believe it was to get writers to think before killing off/depowering female character offhandedly. Certainly she doesn't say that it doesn't happen to male characters flat out. However, she does go to the trouble of creating a website specifically for the female ones while blatantly ignoring the male characters that died in the same panels. I think whining about Tarot while ignoring Jetstream is a bigger insult to Jetstream than killing off Tarot was to her. I find that hypocritical.

With the paragraph with Gail Simone in it, are you saying that her not being able to create female characters that shouldn't and can't be wronged is her fault? Why are you solely blaming it on her?

Um...no. That's the fault of inconsiderate writers I suppose.

The reason why I think she's so popular today is because she can write characters well, either male OR female. Yes, she is known for writing female characters very well but I don't doubt that she can write male characters as well (I believe she wrote for Deadpool when she started her mainstream comics career. Whether that went well or not is up to you to decide).

I think she writes characters well enough. I've heard her run on Birds of Prey was awesome. The only think I've honestly read by her was Villains United which I loathed.

I don't think it was so much her fault as the fact that she was given the task of putting six losers, the most competent of the bunch being the ever impressive eye roll Catman, up against a 100+ group of villains containing the likes of Black Adam, Sinestro, Zoom, Bizarro, and Deathstroke and somehow figuring out a way for them to come out alive. The entire thing was just silly. (Which is about par for the Infinite Crisis course)

I'm not sure about you, but when people ask me who my favourite female writer is, I say Gail Simone.

Oh I don't know. Probably Barbra Kesel. But in fairness to Gail Simone I've coincidentally read some of her worst stuff while not having read some of her best.

When people ask me who my favourite male writers are, I have to stop and ponder for a while.

I would imagine because there are more of them, though I might be taking this the wrong way.

*Male* writers are part of the problem too. If you say that male characters are getting killed off for plot advancement, and you think that's unfair, look at who's writing the story. It's most likely a male writer (and just for the record, I'm not saying all male writers can't write female characters. John Bryne and George Perez wrote Wonder Woman wonderfully - no pun intended).

I agree. In fact, if you told me to list the authors I thought were worst about killing off characters as a plot device it'd probably be awhile before I got to a female author.

I think you're missing part of the concept as well. Yes, it is about killing off female characters, but killing off female characters so the male's own character can develop is something else; plot advancement is only part of it. So can you tell me a male character that was killed off for the advancement for the sake of the female character?

The Question comes to mind, but you're right, there aren't nearly as many males out there dieing to advance female characters as vice versa. I attribute this to having more male main characters than females. Part of it is that having something bad happen to the main character's love interest (a female the majority of the time as long as we have straight male characters headlining most comics) is seen as just about the most terrible thing a hero can go through. Part of it is that the main character is rarely going to die to advance the development of the other characters in his book.

#17 Posted by Zoom (14668 posts) - - Show Bio

I just read part of that blog and while I can agree and disagree with parts of it, this part really annoyed me.

On Judd Winick (who I'll agree isn't that good of a writer):

"When he took up writing Green Arrow, he wrote that Mia, who became a new Speedy, was infected with HIV in a forced storyline. Maybe not as bad as what Kevin Smith, when he intro’d her, did, but still uncalled for."

Oh for pete's sake.

Kevin Smith did wrong for introducing Speedy as a former prostitute? Heaven forbid someone come up with a unique origin for a superhero. Heaven forbid a girl tries to pick up the pieces of her bad life (a life that wasn't her fault in the first place) and become something better. Or maybe it's just heaven forbid you introduce a character with hiv or who did some bad things in her past. Like it's some kind of insult to the character.

Screw Avi Green. Speedy kicks ass.

#18 Posted by Deathshroud (1620 posts) - - Show Bio

Methos says:

"Ms. Invisible says:
"Nightwing was raped? It's usually the other way round: when a male is sexually abused, that's where the uproar is."
Kyle Rayner was raped... by another bloke as well... M
Post Edited:2008-03-09 08:20:45"

OMG! thats so funny i cannot stop laughing my customers think i am crazy but its so dang funny .

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