The only way we will get a WW solo film out of JL movie?

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#51 Edited by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: Why didn´t you reply to me since I was the one you were having a discussion with.

I´ve fully understood what you´ve said; i´ve already proved you wrong, by reffering to DC´s own database on her powers. Clearly if you ask any fighter in the world, what wins in the end strength or technique, everyone of them will say tecnique. I mean obviously if you put a heavy weight against a feather weight who is much much more skilled, in that scenario the heavy weight wins. But thats not the case with superman and WW. WW is near his strength level and has shown that on many many occasions, and is a far more skilled fighter, so your wrong. Superman does not have a thousand years of Amazon training in all the arts of warfare, WW does. Even if he´s a semiskilled fighter, your talking about a maybe a yellow belt vs one of the greatest ever Shaulin Masters, you do the math.

And by the way I know a hell of alot about WW and this is not coming from bias, cause as I said I absolutely love Superman and I´m often defending him against people who say he´s lame or he´s too powerful so he´s not interesting. This is coming strictly from facts: check DC database yourself.

Lastly, why cause she´s a woman does she have to be a love interest to one of the men, when this is a superhero team up. This isn´t a romantic comedy. I´m not going to see it to see love blossom. I´m going to see the film to watch an epic adventure story, where my favorite heroes save humanity from impending doom. Here´s your theory, she´s a woman so she needs to get together with someone, what is this the 1930´s. I mean come on. Why don´t they get Batman and Superman together, they have things in common, they respect each other. I hope the writer isn´t thinking like you that´s all I can say, cause I for one will not watch it if they do something obvious like get Superman and WW together in the first film. Maybe I´d accept it if they develop that, once they´ve established her as a character who stands up in her own right. Say in the third movie she could have a fling with someone, that doesn´t work, but not before she´s her own woman and can stand on her own two feet in the movies.

#52 Edited by deaditegonzo (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

@deaditegonzo: Why didn´t you reply to me since I was the one you were having a discussion with.

I´ve fully understood what you´ve said; i´ve already proved you wrong, by reffering to DC´s own database on her powers. Clearly if you ask any fighter in the world, what wins in the end strength or technique, everyone of them will say tecnique. I mean obviously if you put a heavy weight against a feather weight who is much much more skilled, in that scenario the heavy weight wins. But thats not the case with superman and WW. WW is near his strength level and has shown that on many many occasions, and is a far more skilled fighter, so your wrong. Superman does not have a thousand years of Amazon training in all the arts of warfare, WW does. Even if he´s a semiskilled fighter, your talking about a maybe a yellow belt vs one of the greatest ever Shaulin Masters, you do the math.

And by the way I know a hell of alot about WW and this is not coming from bias, cause as I said I absolutely love Superman and I´m often defending him against people who say he´s lame or he´s too powerful so he´s not interesting. This is coming strictly from facts: check DC database yourself.

Lastly, why cause she´s a woman does she have to be a love interest to one of the men, when this is a superhero team up. This isn´t a romantic comedy. I´m not going to see it to see love blossom. I´m going to see the film to watch an epic adventure story, where my favorite heroes save humanity from impending doom. Here´s your theory, she´s a woman so she needs to get together with someone, what is this the 1930´s. I mean come on. Why don´t they get Batman and Superman together, they have things in common, they respect each other. I hope the writer isn´t thinking like you that´s all I can say, cause I for one will not watch it if they do something obvious like get Superman and WW together in the first film. Maybe I´d accept it if they develop that, once they´ve established her as a character who stands up in her own right. Say in the third movie she could have a fling with someone, that doesn´t work, but not before she´s her own woman and can stand on her own two feet in the movies.

I didnt respond to you in particular because I was responding to everyone in the thread with opinions I disagree with. The relationship part was more focused at the Batfan, in fact.

I dont take the DC databases word for anything, but the evidence you posted didnt even say they were equals or that she would win in a fight, just that she was in his league. I agree 100% that she is in the same league as Superman, its just obvious that she would lose in a fight to him as he is superior in every way except skill. And actually, he fought alongside Diana for 1000 years in the 1000 years war, so its funny that you would bring that up. She is not so much more skilled than Superman that it can make up for her inadequacies in every other department. She has confessed on multiple occasions he is superior to her. And every time theyve struggled at all, Supes has had the advantage. To my knowledge, she's really only even had the advantage once, and that was the Maxwell Lord fight, and even in that one we dont know what would have happened had it continued, he did almost one hit KO her in that fight anyway.

You should look at what ive said about WW in the past, she is one of my all time favorite characters, and is maybe the 4th most powerful in DC, but she is not Supermans equal.

Did you read my first where I brought the relationship up? I said it is something id like to see, because I like romance in movies, and drama, and I feel the Superman pursuing Lois Lane thing is played out. It is also something that would be distinct from the Avengers, would be a nod to current readers, and could even further ground the characters in realism, and add a more connected universe feel by having cameos, and winks to the fans. That is also a side of Supes we rarely see, one conflicted and potentially causing suffering to Lois for example; in this way, Superman would need WW more than she'd need him. But as I said when i very first brought it up, it is something id like to see, BUT NOT at the expense of WW's own characterization. Her characterization should be at the forefront of her story. I realize this would be REALLY difficult to pull off, and id be happy if the writers and director focused on just not screwing up without taking a lot of risks. But if they have a good enough team and faith in them, then it is a risk that could pay dividends.

EDIT: BTW, Supes isnt just a little skilled, he is very skilled. Lady Shiva/the Karate Kid he is not, but his skills set him apart from the other Kryptonians, he is shown to have his own Kryptonian martial art Tor-Vo, and he has taken on Gun wielding opponents while depowered Captain America style. He is severely underrated in this category (WW is his superior, though, as ive mentioned).

#53 Edited by drgnx (3565 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

@drgnx said:

@jphulk26 said:

I'm not sure where some of this is coming from, you have a habit of going off going left when replying to my posts. If you don't like some of the relations/characters with the comic vs the A.S. lineup that's fine. I'm pretty sure someone on the team would have ended up like him.

Barry is a forensic scientist, not a detective. I think MMH has been shown as a detective. As for over-lapping abilities on DC team, they don't work, DC generally ignores characters abilities on teams to make them fit. Barry is not Wally so making more like wally in the movie for humor purposes would cause issues with fans.

I study forensic psychology, Batman in the comics is supposed to be a self taught forensics scientist, and, forensic psychologist, which is why he´s such a good detective. Its basically the same thing forensics is basically the science of solving crimes. So again Barry Allen being a great forensic psychologist negates what Batman does. If he´s just some average one, and a normal guy it will make more sense. By the way you seem to be getting upset, claiming I´m going off left field, I was just politely answering back to your initial post as to why I don´t think you´re right in your estimation that Hal Jordan should be the clown. I was showing that by comparing the dynamic with the animated series which I think to a large extent got the characters exactly right and how they should be. Geoff Johns Is not thinking logically who these characters are, how they got their powers, or became superheroes, where as the guys behind the animated series did, and therefore they let that inform the characters personalities.

I'm not upset, but you're attempting to base Barry acting a certain way based on Wally which is basically changing the character so does not make sense. The whole point of having Wally vs Barry is that they bring different flavors to the Flash identity. Then you start talking about the relationship of the JLA members in animation which is different than the comics, at least current, which I don't see what WW dating SM has to do with Hal being a clown. Comparing JLA line-ups make little sense because we are not talking about swapping characters, we are also not talking about relationships, we are talking personalities. If we are talking about consistency amongst characters (which I was under the impression is one of your big concerns), then making Barry something he is not, would be counter productive. Hal already has his origins and back story, if DC was going to change that they had the chance during the comics 'reboot', and if they feed off the movie, he is pretty much set in stone.

If I was going to accuse you of being "off in left field" I would of stated it specifically, I meant you're going off course, which is a little less extreme.

Second, my inclination to Hal being the clown has little to do with my wishes, but more on how the character is portrayed.

Also, Flash does spend his time in Lab or investigating scenes, but he does not really go out investigating criminal backgrounds or getting into their minds the way Batman does. There are more aspects of Detective work that Batman covers that Flash does not, batman also has the aid of tech so it helps him in an area Barry might surpass him in. So there is a difference in the detective work Batman and Flash do. I'm not saying Flash should not be able to handle some this role, I've been very vocal on Batman not collaborating with other team members more, but they are not the same roles.

#54 Edited by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

Before I start my reply just so you know, I´m talking about pre new 52 JMS wonder woman. the wonder woman who was able to fight off many JL members even though she was blinded due to her fight with Medusa. And of course pre new 52 or New 52 superman.

@deaditegonzo said:

I dont take the DC databases word for anything, but the evidence you posted didnt even say they were equals or that she would win in a fight, just that she was in his league.

So DC Database is wrong, her comics are wrong, what actual fighters say is wrong, but you are right. I mean. I answer you cause I´ve enjoyed the conversation, but with statements like this I think I´ve hit a brick wall. Plus earlier you said that she isn´t in his league.

Plus you completely ignored my whole last point. If you want to continue take me point by point and prove me wrong.

@jphulk26 said:

@80sBaby:

1. I didn´t say DC, I said their writing staff, who openly admit to not having read that much if any of WW. Azzerrelo, has admitted that, JMS has admitted that. A number of others who haven´t written for her have admitted that, including the guy writing her Earth One comic Grant Morrison, who in his favor unlike Azzerrelo has decided to take time to research. Where as writers like Jimminez, Loeb, Simone, Rucka, Perrez, they were big fans of WW before they started writing, and alot of people who wrote her solo publication, inbetween Simone and Rucka were also fans. However the guys who have written JL have not been. I´m not sure about Geoff. But in interviews alot of writers on DC staff have openly admitted they have seriously never read WW and don´t know what makes her tick etc etc, so they go on to write JL comics and depower her, they don´t utilize powers she has, or just try and ignore her being in the team as much as possible.

2. The fact is I´m granting you that Superman is stronger, but even that was due to the blatant sexism of writers in the 50´s, who de-powered her from her initial position, as the creator of WW wanted, which was she was exactly as strong as Superman. Writers obviously in the 50s wanted to take away all that progressive stuff from her and make her instead a domesticated house wife for Steve Trevor, mean while Superman gained new powers every week. But hey thats just the way it goes, in 50´s that was the way the world worked.

3. Since then the 70s show came out, and took the character back to her progressive roots, and feminists in the 70s came out demanding that she be given her powers back when Danny O´Neil took them away. As such Perrez came along and wrote the first cannon origin story since WMM (the creator), in that comic it is clear that WW´s powers are again made equal or near equal to Superman, and more is made of her warrior training than before, as we see the Amazon Queen Hippolyta easily defeat Heraclitus (Hercules) in a one on one fight despite possessing no extraordinary strength. She beats him simply through use of her Amazon training. That´s a guy who supposed to be as strong as Superman, and Amazon training allowed her to beat him with no powers. So as stated before, with WW it is a sea-saw of who is writing her, some decide to go back to the progressive origins, others just remember her from the TV show, and other JL comics and write her in accordance with that image. But clearly those who write her and bother to research the character know she is nearly or as strong as Superman, and added to that her warrior training is the finest one can have, combine the two and Superman would be in serious trouble in a straight out fight, and while not definite, it is overwhelmingly possible that she could beat him.

1 I have never seen WW admit Superman is far more powerful than her in anything other than the pages of JL comics, by writers who as I´ve stated are bias toward Superman. It is never in her own comic. I mean in Flashpoint, the writer was so confused about her character that she didn´t even have powers.

2. The 1000 year war you are talking about cannot possibly be in normal continuity, and clearly has nothing to do with the fact that WW was born in Paradise Island among the Immortal Amazons, meaning she has thousands of years experience on him. Or are you trying to say Superman was alive in the times of the Ancient Greeks?

3. Lets look at your claim he out classes her in every way but skill.

Superman has about 5 offensive powers:

a))Super strength, which he´s slightly stronger than her

b)Super speed, he´s faster than her in how fast he can travel, but her reflexes are at light speed, she´s also pretty fast her self.

c)Invulnerability, he´s extremely durable, however he is vulnerable to magic, WW has several weapons forged in magic that actually can stab through Superman. He´s also vulnerable to Kryptonite, which again, she´s a warrior, she uses her brain, she might just take him out with that. She herself is very durable, not quite as durable due to a weakness to piercing weapons, but she has one of the best healing factors of any DC character.

d)Lazer eyes, he has lazer beams from his eyes that are now depicted as hotter than the core of the sun. She has again incredible reflexes and bracelets that are invulnerable, which means she could easily deflect this attack and further use it as weapon against superman. Her bracelets have even deflected Darkseid Omega beam.

e) Freeze breath, I don´t think I even need to go into why this wouldn´t be a problem for Diana.

All his other powers are not really an issue for Diana, microscopìc vision, xray vision, super senses. (in some depictions super intelligence, which Diana also has with her wisdom so that´s not really an issue) Flight again they both possess

Now lets look at Diana´s skills and abilities that would offensively important in this match

a) Super strength (as strong as the earth itself to be exact) that is immense, and puts her in the top eshelon of Superheroes, Supes is not much stronger than that.

b) reflexes and speed: light speed reflexes make her almost impossible to hit, even from someone as fast as superman.

c) Hunters senses (granted this is a stretch, but her senses are all enhanced to a hunting animal precision) i.e. her sight is such that she can target any object, and nearly always hit it.

4) Durability, plus healing power, due again to her connection with the earth spirit Gaea. she can take alot of blunt force injuries, piercing weapons are different, but she can heal her body instantly by connecting to the earth.

5) Communion with beasts: allows her to use other animals as a distraction if need be.

6) Most important, with all the above, she has magic weapons, which could harm superman, including a sword so sharp it can cut an electron from an atom and it can slay gods. a lasso of truth that is unbreakable and she has expert precision with, a tiara boomerang which again she has excelllent precision with and is magic, an invisible jet that can do all sorts of things, but also has the strategic advantage that if she was in it superman would not be able to see her. she controls that mentally

skills

one of the greatest hand to hand combatants in the known universe.

All of this and your telling me brute strength is the factor determining this battle. Just look at this. If DC writers don´t bother to examine her powers before writing their bullshit theories that´s there problem. But I´ve heard some writer who favor one character or another come in and say stuff like Green Lantern is more powerful than Superman. It depends on the writer, fact.

@drgnx said:By the way interesting article if you want to read.

(This was posted by WDW It was a pretty good post so I figured I would repost it here )

Wonder Woman People AND Superman people (with regard to the battle thread)

Wonder Woman Vs Superman BATTLE is one of the most debated issues in comic book history and apparently one of the hardest to resolve. After about a year of debating this topic I have come to the conclusion that Wonder Woman people and Superman people have a fundamental difference in the way they rate the abilities of the respective characters. This fundamental difference makes it impossible to have any kind of realistic debate.

SUPERMAN PEOPLE (battle situations)

In general, I define Superman people as people who place the most value on strength, durability and speed as factors for a characters win over the other in the absence of other abilities like mind control, intangibility, time shifting to name a few.

Superman has enormous strength feats primarily against the environment. This fact is consistent throughout Superman's history and nobody should argue that any mainstream hero in the DC universe is stronger than Superman. Superman has equally impressive speed feats against the environment and nobody should argue that any mainstream hero in the DC universe can go from point A to B faster than superman accept Speedsters. Superman's durability vs. the environment is second to none in the DC Universe. It can be said in all actuality that Superman is the most powerful mainstream being in the DC universe. This is established DC canon and probably will not change ever.

Fortunately for superman people, strength, durability and speed are things everyone is familiar with. It's easy to spot and measure and is pretty much awe inspiring when it is displayed.

Unfortunately for Superman, in the real world superior strength, durability and speed (from point A to B) rarely result in automatic wins in competition level fights/duels.

WONDER WOMAN PEOPLE (battle Situation)

Wonder Woman people value Skill/Speed, training/Combat Knowledge and weapon usage as the primary factor for a characters success in battle as long as there strength and durability are regarded as good enough to stand-up to stronger beings. They site numerous feats where Wonder Woman has stood up to beings as strong as or stronger than herself and in some cases standing up to multiple beings as strong and durable as her. The key theme in Wonder Woman's origin and background as well as pretty much every other combat/melee based hero literature including comics, is that skill/training combat knowledge and tactics are more important than raw strength, durability and (travel speed). One of the most notable examples of that theme is when Hippolyta defeated Hercules a being clearly MUCH stronger and durable than herself using only her fighting skills.

Fortunately for Wonder Woman people, in the real world Skill/speed training/Combat knowledge are all seen as way more important than raw strength, durability and (Travel speed) when it comes to fighting contests between 2 people of similar strength, durability and speed.

Unfortunately for Wonder Woman she does not exist in the real world. The world she lives in does not obey law of physics. As a comic book it was never designed to and does not need to.

Also Wonder Woman is very unique. She is the only Superhero that has super strength on par with superman and combat/fighting skills ranked as one of the best in the DC universe however that is almost always over looked since she is the only one to have such abilities and to get the full sense of what that entails you need to read her comics.

SUPERMAN PEOPLE THE LOGIC OF THE WIN (supported by feats and evidence)

Superman is stronger faster (travel) and more durable. He usually holds back when he is fighting. He has shattered and moved planets he can survive inside the sun and survive a supernova. Superman has better raw strength feats than Wonder Woman.

WONDER WOMAN PEOPLE THE LOGIC OF THE WIN (supported by feats and evidence)

Superman has little to no fighting skills. Wonder Woman has beaten Krytonions and similar beings before. Wonder Woman has been hit by Superman many times and never been K.Oed Wonder Woman has magic weapons that are show to be able to cut and seriously injure Superman. Wonder Woman also holds back. Wonder Woman had faster reaction time and fight reflexes than superman.

Why Wonder Woman people are wrong and Superman people right

Superman is the most powerful being in the DC universe he is stronger faster and more durable. Even though Superman has punched wonder woman several times over the years and has yet to KO her, FEAT supported fact that superman can shatter planets with his punches means the argument can be made that he was "holding back" when he fought wonder woman. If superman is not holding back or is blood lusted wonder woman cannot survive his planet shattering KO punch if it connects. Superman simply has more strength, durability and travel speed feats than Wonder Woman.

The great thing about this argument is that it is simple and allows supporters to easily increase superman's strength durability and speed when needed. It easily explains away obvious contradictions in superman canon when he is seen being defeated by Wonder Woman and other less powerful beings. "Superman was holding back" it is a simple yet ingenious argument.

The problem with this argument is that is sounds like a copout to Wonder Woman people and it certainly does not lend itself to further discussion since there is no way to measure how much superman was holding back or if he was actually holding back or not.

The argument also completely ignores the fact that virtually all superhero's including Wonder Woman hold back when fighting since it is generally accepted that superhero's do not intend to cause fatal injuries in battle. However Wonder Woman people rarely use the fact to counter superman peoples claim that he holds back.

In addition, the argument that superman wins because he is more powerful i.e.... stronger faster (travel) and more durable does not translate well then you apply that same argument to characters like Batman, Black Canary, Lady Shiva ETC who routinely go up against more powerful, stronger, more durable opponents and beat them using pure skill and knowledge of combat.

Why Superman people are wrong and Wonder Woman people right

Generally in a real world setting if the fight takes place in a generic earth based setting between Superman and Wonder Woman and you accept the feat supported facts that Wonder Woman is a much better fighter has weapons that can kill him is considered to have faster combat reflexes. / Superior combat training, advanced tactical knowledge and is in the same strength, blunt force durability and travel speed* category as superman and is virtually immune to his heat vision** and has similar flight abilities. It's easy to see why Wonder Woman people say she would beat him.

(*Superman is faster** She can block it almost at will and is fairly resist to heat anyway.)

The great thing about this argument is that you establish a bench mark of abilities which can be compared to the DC Universe in a rational way logical way that avoids confusion. Since Batman, Shiva Batgirl, night wing, the karate kid, Black Canary, and countless other hero's operate on the premise that superior combat abilities and skill allow them to take on and defeat stronger and more durable beings, why can't wonder woman operate on the same premise since she is one of DC Universes top fighters.

The problem with this argument is that Superman canon and in-fact all canon involving beings with super strength, like Captain Marvel, Power girl, Black Adam, MMH DARKSIED ETC do not operate on the same basic real world premise in which BATMAN, CANARY and the other top fighters in DC comics operate on which is Superior skill and tactics is enough to win fights.

That concept does not exist when dealing with Superman level beings. There is NO heavy hitter at superman's strength level that has been formally trained in combat. Sure there are footnotes here and there stating someone trained superman to use pressure points or that power girl learned some skills from wild cat. However no DC UNIVERSE heavy hitter is considered to be one of the top fighters in the DCU except for Wonder Woman. In fact out off all the melee users in the DCU heavy hitters or tanks probably rank as the worst hand to hand and weapons fighters in the DC universe And because of this, fights between heavy hitters are always determined by the strongest most durable character. The feats used to determine the strength of the heavy hitters are often lifting pulling and smashing.

Now the issue with Wonder Woman is although she is as strong as a heavy hitter/ She is not a TANK she is a warrior and relies mostly on superior fighting skill and tactics rather than raw power and strength so when it's time to compare FEATS between Superman and Wonder Woman. Superman people post scans of him smashing a planet or scans of him punching DARKSIED to prove he is stronger than wonder woman and will therefore win any battle between the two.

Wonder Woman people post scans of her using her fighting skills which is pretty standard when people are comparing melee based non-heavy hitters batman , Black Canary and Cassandra Cain.

That is usually the point at which the debate between Wonder Woman VS Superman breaks down. Both Wonder Woman and Superman people are posting scans and listing feats that do not make sense to each other.

Conclusion

Superman and Wonder Woman people see different aspects of these battles and both have valid arguments. However there are fundamental differences in the way they compare the two. Comparing Superman FEATS to Wonder Woman feats is like comparing apples to oranges. So until Superman people and Wonder Woman people agree on a way reconcile the different methods superman and wonder woman people use to support their argument. The Jury will be out on who the true winner would be and any further discussion is futile.

Appendix

This is a rough graph of fighting ability vs. raw strength in the DC Universe. The boxes represent the high and low end of a range. The names in the boxes are not in any particular order.

Also, each box represents different comic book canons with regard to fighting ability and strength. For example BOX (A) character abilities can be directly compared since they fall into the same canon BOX (A) However BOX (A) assumes that the other boxes/canon do not exist. The same goes with all the other boxes.

Box D represents the area in which superman canon and superman physics operate. Only raw feats of strength and durability are used to determine the winner in any battle among superheroes and villains in box D mainly because none of the characters are regarded as good fighters relative to the rest of the boxes. Characters in box D are generally regarded as the strongest beings in the DC universe.

Box A,B,C,E generally operate on real world physics. Characters in these boxes depend on strength feats and fighting ability feats for battle thread debates.

This graph should make it easy to visualize the reason why Wonder Woman VS Superman threads break down

#55 Posted by OutlawRenegade (1251 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

I seriously think Geoff should get rid of Cyborg though.

Absolutely, ****ing not. Cyborg is one of the best Justice League members.

#56 Edited by OutlawRenegade (1251 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

@drgnx said:

Basically the ring chooses Hal, the lanterns/guardians doubt him, but he ultimately proves himself.

As for why I think Hal would be the joker of the group, its because as you said it, he is the clown and humor is normally the role of the Jester. In avengers the wacky humor seemed to come from Thor and Hulk while the charming/sofisticated humor came from Tony. Hal's and Barry's friendship could certainly be played on.

So the question remains why would the ring choose a retarded bafoon, to handle such power? Johns has completely ruined the dynamic of the JL. he chose the wrong team, and tried to make JL funny cause he wants everyone to like Hal as much as he does. But look here´s a list of why Geoffs failed, even though I don´t think its one of the worse New52 titles by a long shot.

1) Green Lantern´s thing is his willpower, to have a great deal of will power you need an inner strength and endurance. Hal does not come off like that guy at all he just comes off as a pompos idiot.

2) He gets Hal to undermine Batman at every corner, about how he´s useless on the team. But at the same time he doesn´t make up for that by getting Batman to do anything useful himself. All Batman does is get other people to do stuff for him. Making Hal basically right in that Batman is uselss and he´s pretty much endangering everyone else by being in the team.

3) why is batman useless? because of cyborg. Cyborg doesn´t meld well with the team, because all the things Batman is supposed to do, Cyborg can do instantly with his inbuilt gadgets. He´s also got a genius intellect. So what does Batman do? Throw his baterangs?

4) Wonder Woman/ Superman getting together. Wonder Woman is also not really even WW anymore.

5) because Hal is now the humerous one, Flash has no character anymore. He´s basically devoid of any personality.

Why the animated series got it exactly right in terms of the dynamics of the group.

If you look at how the animated series operated (as much as I didn´t like their portrayal of WW and Batman) every character had their usefulness and skill. The way they related ton one another allowed the stories to be funny, dramatic, and tense.

Look the fact is Barry Allen, before wally West came along had little or no personality, he was just good for the sake of being good. So the animated series improved and gave Flash, and Green Lantern and MMH distinct personalities that contrasted well with the rest of the group. If JL purists who constantly complain they don´t want Wally West to be in the JL he should be in Young Justice, then they should get B.A. to take on some of that humor and humanity, so that he at least has a personality. Otherwise what, he´s a detective, well Batmans a detective, so how does that work? He´s a bit straightlaced, well thats superman? what is the Flash if he isn´t the everyman, we can relate to, the guy who got his powers by accident, not being chosen, or some billionaire or an alien or a goddess. It follows directly from the premis of how he got his powers that he should be the funny man, the audience relates to.

Hal was chosen over Batman for two reasons: He was closer, and Batman already had a mission in life. He would be too distracted by Gotham to focus on sector 2814.

Johns will probably kill Hall off in the third army event to bring him back and make him mor elike his pre-Flashpoint counterpart.

Yes, the Batman jokes are old. Still, Hal and Batman have always fought.

Batman is not useless due to Cyborg. If Cyborg is the Iron Man, then Batman is the Daredevil/Black Widow/Captain America/Hawkeye. He's the strategist. He's the one who knows how criminals think. He has access to their hidden networks. He can read people well. He has contingencies for every situation. He can stop problems before they even happen because he's always investigating issues and potential issues unlike the other members of the team who are just reactive to disasters. He's the only member of the team sneaky and cunning enough to take out Darkseid by threatening to activate all of the bombs on his planet. He has gadgets that Cyborg doesn't (like his Bat summoner, vehicles, various gases, medical equipment, etc.). He has resources that the team doesn't have (like multiple identities, contacts in the underworld, people who can make deus ex machina devices for him, etc.) He's also the only detective on the team. Barry is a scientist.

Barry has never been a humorous character. He's always been the shy wallflower, which is why I never understood why people wanted him back. Since he's the bumbling loser part of Clark Kent all of the time.

The Superman/Wonder Woman relationship is dumb but it will lead to "Twilight of the Superheroes" so I'm willing to put up with it for a hot second.

Hal has always been the cocky, flirty test pilot--even in the Silver Age. He's the James T. Kirk of the team. It's just that Johns wrote that poorly in the first 12 issues of Justice League.

@drgnx said:

It really does not matter who fights who, Batman is stealing the show.

Batman is going to = Tony Starks, Bruce Banner (without Hulk), Captain America, Black Widow, Hawkeye, and Agent Phil Coulson, Nick Fury (leadership)

Superman = Hulk (with a bit of Bruce, not that he will ever use it) (Batman and WW seem like more likely contacts to Steve)

Wonder Women = Thor + Agent Maria Hill

Steve = Nick Fury (liaison to the government)

Everyone else = Ironman (minus Tony's charm and intel, though GL might have some charm) but they will be fighting for Hawkeye's screen time.... =P

Everyone (the heroes and the villains) should get equal screen time to develop their characters and get audiences to be interested enough to see their solo films. This is a Justice League movie not a Trinity and friends movie. If you give one of them Hawkeye level screen time or make them just some secondary character who just shows up and says 10 lines, they won't win over any fans. I mean, for general audiences, Hawkeye is the least popular Avenger. Even Loki is more well liked. I'm not saying Hawkeye is disliked--just the least popular.

One of the best things about the Avengers was that they felt like equals because every character had a lot of screen time--unlike the X-Men movies in which Logan was clearly the central character.

In terms of character and screen time, I would say:

Captain America replaced by Superman

Both are inspirational leaders with a straight-edge moral compass.

Iron Man replaced by Green Lantern

Both are characters with a comedic streak, heart of gold, and maverick, rebel attitude.

Thor replaced by Wonder Woman

Both are warriors from a mythical culture, and both have a fish out of water story.

Hulk replaced by Cyborg

Both are intelligent heroes who feel cursed by their powers at first, but they then embrace them in a time of need. It would be cool to see Cyborg and Batman team up to do science stuff like Stark and Banner did.

Black Widow replaced by Batman

Both are stealthy, cunning, resourceful heroes without powers, who use gadgets. They both have a dark past. And they are both badass.

#57 Edited by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@OutlawRenegade said:

Batman is not useless due to Cyborg. If Cyborg is the Iron Man, then Batman is the Daredevil/Black Widow/Captain America/Hawkeye. He's the strategist.

This one sentence sums it up, Batman has been demoted to the level of Black widow, or a blind ninja, not exactly on par in the usefulness department as Iron Man.

Plus cyborg has abilities way beyond Iron Man, data bases of instantly accessible information, which makes all the skills you claim Batman has nul and void.

#58 Edited by OutlawRenegade (1251 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26: Not really since, Cyborg is just a combination of Iron Man and the Shield database. He's not an information god. And Iron Man has demonstrated abilties far beyond Cyborg's in the comics--even Iron Man's technopathy has more feats. There's a lot of information Cyborg doesn't have access to as shown in Superman issue 15, in which he didn't know about the government's secret Lex Luthor prison. It didn't show up on any database. The government has ways of keeping secrets from Cyborg, but no one can keep secrets from Batman.

And I don't see how Batman is demoted if he is the leader. Absolutely no one calls Captain America useless, and he does even less than Batman in terms of skills and gadgets. Finally, Batman and the Batfamily are not by definition tech characters. They got by just fine in the 60s, 70s, and 80s without using computer gadgets.

#59 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@OutlawRenegade said:

@jphulk26: Not really since, Cyborg is just a combination of Iron Man and the Shield database. He's not an information god. And Iron Man has demonstrated abilties far beyond Cyborg's in the comics--even Iron Man's technopathy has more feats. There's a lot of information Cyborg doesn't have access to as shown in Superman issue 15, in which he didn't know about the government's secret Lex Luthor prison. It didn't show up on any database. The government has ways of keeping secrets from Cyborg, but no one can keep secrets from Batman.

And I don't see how Batman is demoted if he is the leader. Absolutely no one calls Captain America useless, and he does even less than Batman in terms of skills and gadgets. Finally, Batman and the Batfamily are not by definition tech characters. They got by just fine in the 60s, 70s, and 80s without using computer gadgets.

Batmans only similarity with Captain America is they´re human. The comparison stops there. Added to that the captain america in the avengers is why people think that. In the comics he´s much cooler but also far weaker than he is in the films. I know Iron Man has abilities in physical prowess more than Cyborg, but all in all taking physical and mental, cyborg trumps him. he´s a living, self consious computer, that trumps even a human genius like Bruce or Tony. Anyway, I´m not happy with Batman taking the place of detective, and psychologist against beings as powerful as Darkseid. Hows that going to help, what dooes he need to detect, or, psychologically analyse, most people who can take on JL make their intentions really clear, you don´t need a detective, you need someone who can throw down.

#60 Posted by OutlawRenegade (1251 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26: I disagree with you about Cyborg and the Batman/Captain America role similarity. But I'm not going to argue that again.

And as for why someone like Batman is important--well sometimes brawn isn't enough and the only way to win is brains and cunning, which Batman has in spades.

#61 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@OutlawRenegade: @OutlawRenegade said:

@jphulk26: I disagree with you about Cyborg and the Batman/Captain America role similarity. But I'm not going to argue that again.And as for why someone like Batman is important--well sometimes brawn isn't enough and the only way to win is brains and cunning, which Batman has in spades.

seen it, but batman does more than this the whole film, plus anything batman does in this scene cyborg can do the way Johns is writing him.

Look I understand DC want a popular black character who isn´t just a side kick or taking the mantle of a traditionally white character, and I applaud them for it. Everytime they´ve done JL, they´ve tried to add diversity, which is excellent, a really great attitude and I commend Johns and Bruce Timm for doing it. I also do enjoy Johns JL probably more than any comic in new 52, mainly cause of Shazaam, which I love, but I personally think someone like Vixen would have helped the dynamic of the group more. Also I think Green Lantern should have been more of the soldier hero maverick, whose a bit to brave for his own good and The Flash again more of the everyman, then the dynamic, powers and characters just would have melded a bit better. I just think as it goes, his line up has too many people stepping on the other toes. Also i must say I like that Cyborg isn´t some token black, which sometimes John felt like in the cartoon. Cyborg is a character first who happens to be black, again I fully respect what he´s tried to do, just the dynamic is very off for me.

#62 Posted by OutlawRenegade (1251 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26: Vixen is just Storm with Animal Man's powers. Cyborg is unique. And there's only one Black A-List hero: Storm. Black Panther and the others are b-list. I want an a-list black male--especially now that John Stewart has been demoted.

#63 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@OutlawRenegade: Have you read the Vixen miniseries comic? I thought it was interesting. I think you can only make A-List stars by giving them exposure. Cyborg good have remained in teen titans and been in Young Justice. He´s already quite known, plus to be honest I don´t think he really is that original. Maybe if they really want to have a balck hero in the main stream, they should start from scratch and let a black writer create them. Cause to be honest neither Cyborg or Vixen cut it for me, they aren´t a Green Lantern or Flash or Superman. They´re are kind of there to be black, same with asian heroes.

But I will give Cyborg and Vixen at least this, on face value they don´t seem to be just token black in the same way John was in the JLA animated series. They have a bit of character. Vixen also is nothing like Storm by the way. Totally different characters.

#64 Posted by lorex (958 posts) - - Show Bio

If DC is going to force out a Justice League Movie with little to no set up, getting a Wonder Woman movie will depend how well recieved the character is. As for heroes fighting I agree it is a chiche in comics but in a Justice League movie having Wonder Woman trade punches for a while with Superman could sell the audience on how powerful and awesome Wonder Woman can be.

#65 Edited by drgnx (3565 posts) - - Show Bio

@OutlawRenegade said:


@drgnx said:

It really does not matter who fights who, Batman is stealing the show.

Batman is going to = Tony Starks, Bruce Banner (without Hulk), Captain America, Black Widow, Hawkeye, and Agent Phil Coulson, Nick Fury (leadership)

Superman = Hulk (with a bit of Bruce, not that he will ever use it) (Batman and WW seem like more likely contacts to Steve)

Wonder Women = Thor + Agent Maria Hill

Steve = Nick Fury (liaison to the government)

Everyone else = Ironman (minus Tony's charm and intel, though GL might have some charm) but they will be fighting for Hawkeye's screen time.... =P

Everyone (the heroes and the villains) should get equal screen time to develop their characters and get audiences to be interested enough to see their solo films. This is a Justice League movie not a Trinity and friends movie. If you give one of them Hawkeye level screen time or make them just some secondary character who just shows up and says 10 lines, they won't win over any fans. I mean, for general audiences, Hawkeye is the least popular Avenger. Even Loki is more well liked. I'm not saying Hawkeye is disliked--just the least popular.

One of the best things about the Avengers was that they felt like equals because every character had a lot of screen time--unlike the X-Men movies in which Logan was clearly the central character.

Avengers Assemble!
So this is "guarding the base"?

In terms of character and screen time, I would say:

Captain America replaced by Superman

Both are inspirational leaders with a straight-edge moral compass.

Iron Man replaced by Green Lantern

Both are characters with a comedic streak, heart of gold, and maverick, rebel attitude.

Thor replaced by Wonder Woman

Both are warriors from a mythical culture, and both have a fish out of water story.

Hulk replaced by Cyborg

Both are intelligent heroes who feel cursed by their powers at first, but they then embrace them in a time of need. It would be cool to see Cyborg and Batman team up to do science stuff like Stark and Banner did.

Black Widow replaced by Batman

Both are stealthy, cunning, resourceful heroes without powers, who use gadgets. They both have a dark past. And they are both badass.

Nicely done

#66 Edited by OutlawRenegade (1251 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx: Thanks!

@jphulk26: Yes, I have. I own all five issues because I support comics with Black leads.

No hero that starts from scratch (regardless of race or gender) sells well these days because no one wants to spend $2.99, $3.99, or $4.99 on a comic they know nothing about.

And Vixen and Storm have similar looks, similar African heritage, and similar personalities. Only their powers, costumes, and origins are different.

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