The need for Diana's great romance

Posted by RazzaTazz (9450 posts) - - Show Bio

Sorry for the second straight blog about the Superman-Wonder Woman romance, but this is clearly something which is bothering me. One of my main problems with the idea of a romance between the two is maybe not as obvious. I am not sure why male fans of Wonder Woman read her stories, though it is probably for the same reason as I do. They like the concept that she is a strong warrior that would rather use peaceful ways to resolve problems. For me a particular aspect of this as a female reader though is the Wonder Woman is a female character and thus it is easier to relate to her for vicarious reading. Obviously there are thing that she can do that no human ever will, but in a very different sense there is something that she cannot do that most women can, and that is to find a boyfriend. Granted in the golden age she had Steve Trevor around almost all the time, but in terms of Steve Trevor's role, he subjugated Diana into the housewife role more than anything (she would often proclaim how much she wanted to marry him so that she could be a good wife to him and to take car of him, and often in a somewhat traditional way.) So I don't count that as the something which really would satisfy Wonder Woman's desire for romance. This leaves a gaping hole in the character's history - that she never really has had a great romance to define her, nor does she really have a Lois/Selina/Carol/Carol/Iris type of supporting character nor has she ever (unless you count Steve which evidently I don't). I think writers in the past have been aware of this as well for instance this ad from the 1960s that I ran across recently:

This was in relation to the launch of the mod girl years for Diana, where romance was promised. However, there was not really a lot of romance - she followed some guy around Hong Kong and China for a couple of issues, there was a guy that lived near her fashion boutique that intervened and saved her from something or other (she was depowered at the time) and then Johnny Double showed up as a kind of unconventional love interest. The mod girl years didn't last long, but for the next 120 issues or so the character either went between no love interest, or an attempt to resurrect Steve. Only towards the end of her first series was there anything more as another officer made it into a brief love triangle. The second and third series also had a lot less of anything to offer, the highlight of volume 2 being Trevor Barnes, a guy that initially didn't want to date and then died before anything else happened. the third series had Nemesis but that petered out when he found out that she wanted him only to have a child.

In short there has never been a time in the history of the character that the reader can associate with the statement "that is the time that Wonder Woman fell in love." As a female reader I am not as opposed to romance in a comic book about superheroes as much as some might be, so maybe it is time for Wonder Woman's great romance? (which would almost certainly not be Superman)

Moderator
#1 Posted by WDW (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly Wonder Woman does not need a "Great Romance" and in any case my feeling on the matter is that by hooking her up with Superman of all people you essentially take away from the character Wonder Woman. I see nothing in Supermans character that Wonder Woman would be attracted to.

Yes the relationship could work and be fun if done properly but I really get the feeling this is being done for Superman's benefit rather than a mutual benefit. Time will tell.

#2 Posted by Delphic (1459 posts) - - Show Bio

@WDW: I really don't think this is being done for Superman's benefit at all. I've stated my opinion before that I believe this is a corporate decision rather than a creative one. In my opinion this is all about boosting sales, and making more money which seems to be DC's direction this day and time. Geoff Johns says this is the new status quo, so evidently the two will stick together for some times, but out of the entire period they will be dating there will possibly be three issues which will sale the most, and people will buy all the in between issues to have the chance of seeing these three events happening. Those events are: The start of the relationship, the consummation of the relationship, and the break-up. There is the possibility of a "marriage" issue instead of or before a break up issue, but I personally don't see that happening. Still DC gets what they want: more cash, and they don't care how many long time fans have nervous breakdowns.

#3 Posted by WDW (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@Delphic said:

@WDW: I really don't think this is being done for Superman's benefit at all. I've stated my opinion before that I believe this is a corporate decision rather than a creative one. In my opinion this is all about boosting sales, and making more money which seems to be DC's direction this day and time. Geoff Johns says this is the new status quo, so evidently the two will stick together for some times, but out of the entire period they will be dating there will possibly be three issues which will sale the most, and people will buy all the in between issues to have the chance of seeing these three events happening. Those events are: The start of the relationship, the consummation of the relationship, and the break-up. There is the possibility of a "marriage" issue instead of or before a break up issue, but I personally don't see that happening. Still DC gets what they want: more cash, and they don't care how many long time fans have nervous breakdowns.

Well I agree. It is all about boosting sales but I still think its at the expense of Wonder Woman as a character. Now all this is speculation on my part but...

Wonder Woman's solo book does not need superman in it. and probably won't have superman in it for a long time. The romance is going to happen in Justice League and probably Action and the Superman book which will probably boost sales. I would almost rather it be a creative decision by Brian A which would probably feel more natural that this corporate one. It feels gimmicky.

Superman as a character as nothing to lose from this.... after all "he gets to tie another notch on his belt" that is how I believe most superman fans will see this. However, Wonder Woman is a little more complex and I believe a lot of who she is would be seen in her choice of men from what I have read over 3 volumes of Wonder woman .

For now I see nothing in Superman that the current Solo Wonder Woman book would fine interesting.

Maybe they will suprise me

#4 Posted by RazzaTazz (9450 posts) - - Show Bio

@WDW said:

For now I see nothing in Superman that the current Solo Wonder Woman book would fine interesting.

Maybe they will suprise me

this is all I am working off of

Moderator
#5 Posted by Delphic (1459 posts) - - Show Bio

@WDW said:

Superman as a character as nothing to lose from this.... after all "he gets to tie another notch on his belt" that is how I believe most superman fans will see this. However, Wonder Woman is a little more complex and I believe a lot of who she is would be seen in her choice of men from what I have read over 3 volumes of Wonder woman .

For now I see nothing in Superman that the current Solo Wonder Woman book would fine interesting.

Unfortunately I agree about most Superman fans seeing this as another notch on his belt, and that it pretty much brings Diana down to a side show. If it could be done creatively, which it's not, I would say that this is a phase for both characters who are at this point in comics emotionally damaged. Superman is unable to win over the woman he loves, and he's dealing with the loss of both Earth parents. Wonder Woman, as far as we know, is the last Amazon, and supposedly will have just dealt with the death of Steve Trevor. A relationship founded on that, I think, would be fun to see play out, and both characters could grow from it, but you would know that it could not last based on that alone, and if it did work out it could so in a natural manner and we could see all new sides to both characters we have never seen before. (I should totally work for DC :P)

Also a Superman and Wonder Woman book crossovers could never really work. Diana often deals with the supernatural side of things, while Superman deals with intergalactic/Meta threats on a worldwide and sometimes galactic level. The main thing about the Supernatural side of things is that it often deals with magic which is one of Superman's primary weaknesses (Superman can't handle Wonder Woman! haha). With Diana it's hard to say what she would dip into. A lot of times Diana has proven herself time and again against Superman's rogues. That could really get old really fast. I think if you kept the two characters action wise within their respective books, with sparse mentions of the relationships, perhaps the "relationship" could surprise us, but the likely hood of that happening I think is very low. Still as you say they can still surprise us.

#6 Posted by WDW (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@Delphic said:

@WDW said:

Superman as a character as nothing to lose from this.... after all "he gets to tie another notch on his belt" that is how I believe most superman fans will see this. However, Wonder Woman is a little more complex and I believe a lot of who she is would be seen in her choice of men from what I have read over 3 volumes of Wonder woman .

For now I see nothing in Superman that the current Solo Wonder Woman book would fine interesting.

Unfortunately I agree about most Superman fans seeing this as another notch on his belt, and that it pretty much brings Diana down to a side show. If it could be done creatively, which it's not, I would say that this is a phase for both characters who are at this point in comics emotionally damaged. Superman is unable to win over the woman he loves, and he's dealing with the loss of both Earth parents. Wonder Woman, as far as we know, is the last Amazon, and supposedly will have just dealt with the death of Steve Trevor. A relationship founded on that, I think, would be fun to see play out, and both characters could grow from it, but you would know that it could not last based on that alone, and if it did work out it could so in a natural manner and we could see all new sides to both characters we have never seen before. (I should totally work for DC :P)

Also a Superman and Wonder Woman book crossovers could never really work. Diana often deals with the supernatural side of things, while Superman deals with intergalactic/Meta threats on a worldwide and sometimes galactic level. The main thing about the Supernatural side of things is that it often deals with magic which is one of Superman's primary weaknesses (Superman can't handle Wonder Woman! haha). With Diana it's hard to say what she would dip into. A lot of times Diana has proven herself time and again against Superman's rogues. That could really get old really fast. I think if you kept the two characters action wise within their respective books, with sparse mentions of the relationships, perhaps the "relationship" could surprise us, but the likely hood of that happening I think is very low. Still as you say they can still surprise us.

Yeah well I think the match is cumbersome at best (and you touched on some of the reasons why). I really really hope it works out. but as I said I see no benefit to Wonder Woman's character at all. This adds no value to Wonder Woman from where I sit. Yet they talk about it as the new status quo. UGH...I am already seeing the demeaning comments about Wonder Woman on this subject on the internet.

anyway nothing I can do but just wait and see

#7 Posted by Delphic (1459 posts) - - Show Bio

@WDW said:

UGH...I am already seeing the demeaning comments about Wonder Woman on this subject on the internet.

anyway nothing I can do but just wait and see

Well there have always been demeaning comments about WW and Superman. I don't think this will really change anything. Best thing to do in this scenario is just to be mature and have nothing to do with that sort of nonsense. Like you say though, we can only wait and see, but in the end I think it will be alright. If not, we can always speak with our wallets.

#8 Posted by azza04 (1503 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't get it....why wouldn't Wonder Woman be attracted to Superman? people saying that there is nothing in Superman's character that Wonder Woman could possibly be attarcted to..... >_> lmao I'm confused.

#9 Posted by daredevil21134 (10642 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz: Very interesting.

#10 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting read.

I would argue that it isn't a romance Wonder Woman needs but more deeper relationships. One of the reasons Batman is so interesting is that he figuratively (and literally) created a family around him, the interaction of those relationships makes him relatable. Superman and Wonder Woman have very little of that.

#11 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

a great romance could help to make her more real,if they writte the story properly,that could help the character to seem more realistic,show her facing different issues about her relationship,and having to deal with the dutty of being a super hero at the same time,enemies trying to hurt her loved one,trying to use him to get to her,all that can help her to be more real,more people could relate to her in a deeper way,developing something so important for humans as love,it could make her a more complate character as far as developing goes.

#12 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@WDW:a great romance could help to make her more real,if they writte the story properly,that could help the character to seem more realistic,show her facing different issues about her relationship,and having to deal with the dutty of being a super hero at the same time,enemies trying to hurt her loved one,trying to use him to get to her,all that can help her to be more real,more people could relate to her in a deeper way,developing something so important for humans as love,it could make her a more complate character as far as developing goes.

#13 Edited by WDW (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior said:

@WDW:a great romance could help to make her more real,if they writte the story properly,that could help the character to seem more realistic,show her facing different issues about her relationship,and having to deal with the dutty of being a super hero at the same time,enemies trying to hurt her loved one,trying to use him to get to her,all that can help her to be more real,more people could relate to her in a deeper way,developing something so important for humans as love,it could make her a more complate character as far as developing goes.

Sure yeah but...Superman? why do they need to pick superman as her great romance? Whats the point of that?

#14 Edited by WDW (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@azza04 said:

I don't get it....why wouldn't Wonder Woman be attracted to Superman? people saying that there is nothing in Superman's character that Wonder Woman could possibly be attarcted to..... >_> lmao I'm confused.

From http://www.uproxx.com/gammasquad/2012/08/5-reasons-superman-wonder-woman-doin-it-a-terrible-idea/#ixzz24Rfqlc7u

Pay special attention to #3 4 5

#5) Dammit, Brian Azzarello Doesn’t Need This $#!t

Azzarello has been doing a spectacular job on Wonder Woman, capping off a twelve issue run with a killer cliffhanger. And now DC editorial is throwing him this monkey wrench? Granted he can just ignore it since DC doesn’t seem prone to forcing lots of crossovers, but it’s still a crappy thing to do to a guy who has salvaged one of your biggest characters with the single best run she’s had in decades.

#4) So, Supes Is a Dick Now?

I freely admit I haven’t enjoyed how DC has been characterizing Superman this go-round, to the point of largely avoiding the books aside from Supergirl. In large part he’s a whiny douche, when he’s not being a self-righteous douche.

Part of what made Superman appealing is that he’s not human, but he genuinely wants to be. He’s a god who would give up his godhood if he didn’t feel an intense obligation to use his powers for the betterment of all mankind.

Screwing a teammate seems distinctly out of character. It’s like the New 52 establishing Batman is nailing Catwoman on a regular basis; it was fun to joke about but on paper it seems a step too far.

#3) It Makes The Human Cast Members of Both Essentially Redundant

Lois exists, especially since the ’80s reboot, to ground Superman and tie him to humanity. Same with the cast at the Daily Planet. I’d complain more about Steve Trevor but Azzarello hasn’t featured him and he was always a blank anyway.

I think Wondy can deal with this better than Supes because her current book lays out that she’s noble and thoughtful of others to a fault. Supes… I’m not so sure.

#2) It’s Cheap Pandering

I’m sorry, it is. “We’ve been teasing it in out of continuity stories for years, and here it is! SUPERPORKING!” Granted this is not the worst of DC’s pandering, or attempts to pander. Anybody remember when Sue Dibny got raped because that’s totally what the fanbase wants?

There’s a difference between giving the fans what they want and pandering, DC.

#1) It Essentially Writes Both Characters Into a Corner, Romantically

I have zero objection to superheroes having sex lives. In fact I think DC could stand to have a bit more of it in their current books. By all means, have Wonder Woman and Superman see different people. I’m not a shipper.

That said… OK, so they’re two gods. Having sex. Not that I think Geoff Johns is incapable, quite the opposite, but let’s face it, it’s going to be really hard not to make their dating life boring. It’s not like either of them are going to cheat. They don’t have in-laws to deal with, really.

It just seems like an idea that’s going to sputter out and fairly quickly because there’s literally nothing to do with it beyond “Dur hur they’re boning.”

What do you think?

Read more: http://www.uproxx.com/gammasquad/2012/08/5-reasons-superman-wonder-woman-doin-it-a-terrible-idea/#ixzz24Rfqlc7u

#15 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@WDW: i never said superman is a good option,my point is that having a great romance can help her to be more complete as a character,and let more people relate to her in a deeper way.

#16 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

2014:

"Clark, I'm Gay"

"What but..."

"Too much Super not enough man,"

*Wonder Woman speed dials Bruce*

"Hey Bruce, yeah I'm free tonight,"

#17 Posted by Lvenger (17906 posts) - - Show Bio

@WDW: Azzarello's doing his own thing with WW at the moment. Throwing in the Superman relationship as well might not be possible to schedule in.

#18 Posted by WDW (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@WDW: Azzarello's doing his own thing with WW at the moment. Throwing in the Superman relationship as well might not be possible to schedule in.

I am really hoping this is true

#19 Posted by Lvenger (17906 posts) - - Show Bio

@WDW said:

@Lvenger said:

@WDW: Azzarello's doing his own thing with WW at the moment. Throwing in the Superman relationship as well might not be possible to schedule in.

I am really hoping this is true

Same applies to Action Comics and Superman too. The only series the relationship can work in is Justice League. Kind of limited if I'm honest.

#20 Posted by WDW (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior said:

@WDW: i never said superman is a good option,my point is that having a great romance can help her to be more complete as a character,and let more people relate to her in a deeper way.

I never said you said superman is a good option. I was being rhetorical. Anyway your opinion is great but they actually announced that superman and wonder woman's relationship would be the status quo. What are your thoughts on that?

#21 Posted by azza04 (1503 posts) - - Show Bio

@WDW: Thanks for the post, I don't really agree with alot of the points but I can see where alot of the negitive reaction is coming from now. I'm just going to try and put all expectations aside and just read it...if it sucks which it may do then I'll complain. But yeah I do agree that Superman has been written poorly in the new 52, in fact alot of characters have been written poorly in the new 52.

#22 Posted by BlueLantern1995 (2448 posts) - - Show Bio

Reason why I think Wonder Woman is for Steve and vice versa is that they are the best of what they can be...Steve is a warrior so is she. He is the greatest a man can be(give or take a few points), and she is the best a woman can be(give or take a few points).

They're the perfect match and I find the Superman/Wonder Woman pairup offensive. And I don't see what either see in each other. They just aren't each others type.

So agree.

#23 Edited by Delphic (1459 posts) - - Show Bio

@azza04 said:

I don't get it....why wouldn't Wonder Woman be attracted to Superman? people saying that there is nothing in Superman's character that Wonder Woman could possibly be attarcted to..... >_> lmao I'm confused.

I would say that I could see WW seeing something in Supes initially, but I would think that over time things would change. A lot of people have gone into relationships that are wonderful at first, but eventually they reach a point to where it can go no further.

So I say: Can Diana see something in Clark that might interest her? Yes, I would definitely say so, but I don't think it would last. A relationship like this would only blossom if they spent a great deal of time apart. Wonder Woman would probably go for a relationship like that (the whole "absence makes the heart grow fonder" thing), but I don't think Superman will.

#24 Posted by Dernman (14614 posts) - - Show Bio

I like the couple. Honestly I haven't bought any reason I have heard they wouldn't be a good match. That doesn't mean they will ever reach marriage but as one of many relationships in their life it's good.

Online
#25 Posted by azza04 (1503 posts) - - Show Bio

@Delphic said:

@azza04 said:

I don't get it....why wouldn't Wonder Woman be attracted to Superman? people saying that there is nothing in Superman's character that Wonder Woman could possibly be attarcted to..... >_> lmao I'm confused.

I would say that I could see WW seeing something in Supes initially, but I would think that over time things would change. A lot of people have gone into relationships that are wonderful at first, but eventually they reach a point to where it can go no further.

So I say: Can Diana see something in Clark that might interest her? Yes, I would definitely say so, but I don't think it would last. A relationship like this would only blossom if they spent a great deal of time apart. Wonder Woman would probably go for a relationship like that (the whole "absence makes the heart grow fonder" thing), but I don't think Superman will.

That's exactly how I see this going down, I don't think (or paticually want it to last very long) and I think inevitably he and Lois will be written back together but for a short term story I am quite interested to see what it does for the characters.

#26 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@WDW: i don't like it,probably it will be a relationship too generic.

#27 Posted by Skewer (325 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the answer lies in fleshing out Steve Trevor's character. The writers of batman year one learnt that fleshing out one of the supporting characters or more can also make the main character more interesting, when they did that for James Gordon it made the relationship more interesting. The reason the relationship between Lois lane and superman has endured for so long is because she's an interesting character with a past and a personality, which is also why the batman's relationship with julie Madison didn't. The trick is simple, make Steve stand out a bit more cause when he is compared to others like superman or batman he falls flat.

#28 Posted by WDW (1514 posts) - - Show Bio

@azza04 said:

@WDW: Thanks for the post, I don't really agree with alot of the points but I can see where alot of the negitive reaction is coming from now. I'm just going to try and put all expectations aside and just read it...if it sucks which it may do then I'll complain. But yeah I do agree that Superman has been written poorly in the new 52, in fact alot of characters have been written poorly in the new 52.

Ok I know I said I hated the idea of Wonder Woman and Superman together....but I have to admit I am intrigued. It seems they really are going to change things and shake up the DCnU. This is not just for the benefit of Superman I hope.

Thanks azza04

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