Superman and Wonder Woman Together Forever

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Posted by RazzaTazz (9478 posts) - - Show Bio

I suppose with the news that the latest new DC series will be a Superman and Wonder Woman ongoing that I am missing the point of what is happening at DC. Or to put that another way, I think it is time for me stopping to resist what I think is a departure from how I think Wonder Woman should be treated as a character. I have read too much of her stories to suddenly depart from her as a character over this development, so I guess that failing to resist the changes that I should take the "If you can't beat'em, join'em" attitude. I do like the character, but my resistance to the character recently has stopped me from even reading her solo series.

So I guess, DC broke me. I am still going to look at a critical glance with all things Superman-Wonder Woman related, but as an evolution of the character, and as one that knows quite a bit about her, that it is kind of foolish of me to give up on her because of this. The present developments of her with Superman is relative to the mostly hated John Byrne run from the late 90s, but just like the Byrne run it eventually did go away and get better (actually a lot better), so I guess I will take the good with the bad. So with no more resistance, I guess I will now be reading Justice League, Superman- Wonder Woman (it would be nice for her to get top billing, but that would never happen) and her regular series.

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#1 Posted by 4_color_image (217 posts) - - Show Bio

At least she is now gonna be on the logo of a second title!!!

#2 Posted by RazzaTazz (9478 posts) - - Show Bio

@4_color_image: Yes that is true, it is reason enough for me to buy it (I guess)

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#3 Edited by 4_color_image (217 posts) - - Show Bio

If we support her current title & this one as well, perhaps we will get a revived Sensation Comics in the near future.

#4 Posted by RazzaTazz (9478 posts) - - Show Bio

@4_color_image: I am not sure about three Wonder Woman titles. It might be asking too much.

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#5 Edited by drgnx (3549 posts) - - Show Bio

@razzatazz: I'm confused, I thought this was an earth-2 Title!

Edit: NVM misread the article title ....

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It is already established that Earth-1 Superboy is a clone of Lois and Superman's son! That kind of doom's the Superman and Wonder Women relationship for Earth-1!

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I think it is good DC is looking for a way to find her a new title, and Superman! Granted not a fan of giving 2nd & 4th titles to these characters when DC has so much untapped IP, but they need to sell what sells... I would Rather have them do a title where they are mentoring other characters to become better heroes without the rest of the JL, either as a subteam of the JL, or going around the planet helping random heroes for different arcs (arc being the key word as opposed to hero of the w- ... Month)!

I hope that we also get a Green Lantern, Aquaman, & Flash title, that would be awesome! They could have so much fun with that! They could also try a title with, Cyborg, the JL recruits, and have captain Marvel join! But I digress!

#6 Posted by dmessmer (362 posts) - - Show Bio

I wonder if this has any implications for their movie plans. With Superman being big right now, introducing a book that teams him with another character might be a way for DC/WB to start prepping people for the shared movie universe. If this book does, in any slim way, have anything to do with the possibility of a future Wonder Woman movie, then I'm on board. Let's just hope they are respectful of the character - always a concern.

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#7 Posted by SandMan_ (4528 posts) - - Show Bio

Ha! XD

#8 Posted by RazzaTazz (9478 posts) - - Show Bio

@sandman_: Umm, not funny. Seriously! no reason to gloat. I still don't like it at all.

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#9 Posted by SandMan_ (4528 posts) - - Show Bio
#10 Posted by RustyRoy (11065 posts) - - Show Bio

I just ignore what I don't like, this is one of those. I'm not against it but this relationship never interested me.

#11 Posted by RazzaTazz (9478 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx: There is lots of stuff they could do, they usually don't though which is disappointing.

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#12 Posted by akintoussaint (106 posts) - - Show Bio
#13 Posted by RazzaTazz (9478 posts) - - Show Bio

@akintoussaint: Sure, but they could use a lot of other good characters that they seem uninterested in.

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#14 Edited by drgnx (3549 posts) - - Show Bio

@razzatazz: I actually liked the Manga one they did with the DC girls! Sort of like a Super-powered all female birds of prey team! I think a comic with lesser heroes being mentored or grouped with 1 popular character would work!

#15 Posted by darkman61288 (722 posts) - - Show Bio

No not you too. You went over to the Dark side.

#17 Edited by RazzaTazz (9478 posts) - - Show Bio

No not you too. You went over to the Dark side.

Not really, I still hate it, I just can't ignore it anymore

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#18 Edited by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio
#19 Posted by RazzaTazz (9478 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx: In my case it is more like Hate-ignore

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#20 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@razzatazz: It's just like a tickle, sooner and later you too will laugh

#21 Posted by RazzaTazz (9478 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx: I am not sure, I have been opposed to the pairing of the two since long before it was announced.

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#22 Edited by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@razzatazz: It's the logical step, I just hate a superwoman being brought down to lesser standards

she should date equal

#23 Posted by herrweis (428 posts) - - Show Bio

Why are so many people against them being together. I think he is much more interesting as his girlfriend then they Lois or Lana. Some people are so afraid of change this is not the old universe it is the new 52

#24 Posted by RazzaTazz (9478 posts) - - Show Bio

@herrweis: A few reasons ... there is nothing consistent about their character portrayals over their publication histories to make it believable. It is sort of the idea that Superman is the star quarterback, so why can't he date the head cheerleader? Except that is not WW or Superman either.

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#25 Edited by darkman61288 (722 posts) - - Show Bio

Soule typed this on a blog. It seems like he might be hinting that the pairing might be temporary:

  • You need to date before you figure out how to have a mature, grown-up relationship that will stand the test of time. You learn from your previous mistakes, and then you bring that experience to the one that sticks. You also come to understand what you want and need out of a partner – none of that will happen unless you have some relationships along the way that do notwork for the long haul.
  • A relationship doesn’t have to last for the long haul for it to be valuable. I still have extremely fond memories of some of the relationships I was in during high school, college, etc. They didn’t last, but they were all a big part of my own emotional development. Not to trivialize, but a relationship can be like a really great song – some are bubblegum pop that give you a rush for a while until the initial thrill wears off, but others are deep, more complex experiences that you can return to again and again over the course of your life.

On the blog he underlined the not in not work and the have in doesn't have. This is the site:http://charlessoule.wordpress.com/

#26 Posted by dmessmer (362 posts) - - Show Bio

The decision they made at the end of Action Comics #600 always seemed the most appropriate response to the possibility of their being together. Basically, that he's a farmboy from Kansas and she's an exotic Princess from Themyscira, and thus they just aren't a very good match. Friendship makes a lot of sense, but romance doesn't feel right.

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#27 Edited by dshipp17 (964 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer: Although I disagree with this pairing, the reasons you give are probably not very good reasons for not wanting to see a pairing. Although I understand why lots of people might like the pairing and can understand the reasons that the pairing is being pushed, I disagree with this pairing and dislike it, because I just don't think Clark, being so much the ideal man, with such a mellow personality, is right for Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman, being such an ideal woman, needs to be paired with a man with flaws in order to demonstrate the noble traits people automatically associate with her. The process can be begin by better developing Dr. Psycho as a Wonder Woman foil and rogue. Thus, Clark's farm boy background are actually attributes in his pairing with Wonder Woman, but that background is about the only thing that someone may consider flawed about Clark, with his being such an ideal man.

#28 Posted by dmessmer (362 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not clear why Wonder Woman's perfection necessitates a flawed romantic interest for her. Does the same thing apply to Superman? Does he need a flawed woman? What I liked about what Action Comics 600 did was that it established that Superman, for all his power and perfection, is always a bit intimidated by Wonder Woman, given her regal background and ancient knowledge compared to his humble beginnings. Some might not find that a compelling reason to avoid romance, but it makes sense to me - although that same logic might make it impossible for Wonder Woman to be with anyone (hence her lack of a consistent love interest since Steve Trevor back in the day - and thank god that's no longer around).

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#29 Edited by dshipp17 (964 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer said:

I'm not clear why Wonder Woman's perfection necessitates a flawed romantic interest for her. Does the same thing apply to Superman? Does he need a flawed woman? What I liked about what Action Comics 600 did was that it established that Superman, for all his power and perfection, is always a bit intimidated by Wonder Woman, given her regal background and ancient knowledge compared to his humble beginnings. Some might not find that a compelling reason to avoid romance, but it makes sense to me - although that same logic might make it impossible for Wonder Woman to be with anyone (hence her lack of a consistent love interest since Steve Trevor back in the day - and thank god that's no longer around).

Oh, yes indeed, the concept applies to Superman to an extent, also, but men are the breadwinners; that might be changing, but, until it does globally, that concept still applies. I guess the question is why do you appear to find a couple of two perfect people so fascinating, but an odd couple repulsive?

I'm mostly talking about Wonder Woman being paired with someone physically flawed, along with some of the psychological baggage that comes with that, someone like say Dr. Psycho. I'm not talking about just pairing her with someone with psychological baggage such as a jerk or someone who's simply insecure for insecurity sake or someone who's essentially stubborn or egotistical and cannot be talked out of making a bad decision because he thinks he's always right and the world revolves around him, so, please, don't get me wrong on that idea.

Also, to answer your question regarding my suggestions is that while Superman is said to be noble and has been placed in every conceivable situation to demonstrate those noble qualities in multiple story arcs, and has a well developed rogues gallery, the same cannot be said for Wonder Woman. And chief among her said nobility traits would be testing her in male environments, as an Amazon, from the time she left Paradise Island to her present superhero status; this is best done with Dr. Psycho. Previously, it was sort of done with Steve Trevor and Silver Swan, while Dr. Psycho is the sweet spot, but was never develop beyond Wonder Woman #168 volume 1. Using Steve Trevor, you're placing her to demonstrate nobility in an idea male climate; similarly, using Silver Swan, you're placing her in an ideal climate to demonstrate nobility, given that Silver Swan is a woman, where Wonder Woman does not have to extend very far to emphasize with Silver Swan and also doesn't bode well given her background as an amazon; in other wards, Silver Swan is someone who Wonder Woman is likely to want to help push along and encourage. With the scenarios already used, excuse me for still being curious about how far her said nobility traits can extend.

#30 Posted by dmessmer (362 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17 said:

@dmessmer said:

I'm not clear why Wonder Woman's perfection necessitates a flawed romantic interest for her. Does the same thing apply to Superman? Does he need a flawed woman? What I liked about what Action Comics 600 did was that it established that Superman, for all his power and perfection, is always a bit intimidated by Wonder Woman, given her regal background and ancient knowledge compared to his humble beginnings. Some might not find that a compelling reason to avoid romance, but it makes sense to me - although that same logic might make it impossible for Wonder Woman to be with anyone (hence her lack of a consistent love interest since Steve Trevor back in the day - and thank god that's no longer around).

Oh, yes indeed, the concept applies to Superman to an extent, also, but men are the breadwinners; that might be changing, but, until it does globally, that concept still applies. I guess the question is why do you appear to find a couple of two perfect people so fascinating, but an odd couple repulsive?

I don't want to get into the "men are the breadwinners" can of worms too much, but that concept certainly doesn't apply to Wonder Woman - she stands for everything that is opposed to such notions. So to determine her love interest on those grounds would be to abandon the core values of the character.

And I'm not saying that I find an odd couple more repulsive than a perfect couple - my initial comment was that I don't like the idea of Wonder Woman with Superman. Frankly, I think she should either stay single or be with a very good but not super-powered man (or woman even). For all of her powers, Wonder Woman's greatest traits are her innate goodness, so it makes sense to me that she would look for that in a mate and wouldn't care about super powers one way or another. I don't remember all of the details, but there was a brief love interest in the Rucka run (I think) along these lines. She dated someone who was an activist, but not a superhero. That seems in keeping with the character.

In your comments on Dr. Psycho, are you suggesting that he should be a love interest? That would be a horrible idea. As a villain, though, I couldn't agree with you more. I think he's a great Wonder Woman villain, perhaps the best, and I wish DC would do a lot more with him.

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#31 Edited by dshipp17 (964 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer said:

@dshipp17 said:

@dmessmer said:

I'm not clear why Wonder Woman's perfection necessitates a flawed romantic interest for her. Does the same thing apply to Superman? Does he need a flawed woman? What I liked about what Action Comics 600 did was that it established that Superman, for all his power and perfection, is always a bit intimidated by Wonder Woman, given her regal background and ancient knowledge compared to his humble beginnings. Some might not find that a compelling reason to avoid romance, but it makes sense to me - although that same logic might make it impossible for Wonder Woman to be with anyone (hence her lack of a consistent love interest since Steve Trevor back in the day - and thank god that's no longer around).

Oh, yes indeed, the concept applies to Superman to an extent, also, but men are the breadwinners; that might be changing, but, until it does globally, that concept still applies. I guess the question is why do you appear to find a couple of two perfect people so fascinating, but an odd couple repulsive?

I don't want to get into the "men are the breadwinners" can of worms too much, but that concept certainly doesn't apply to Wonder Woman - she stands for everything that is opposed to such notions. So to determine her love interest on those grounds would be to abandon the core values of the character.

And I'm not saying that I find an odd couple more repulsive than a perfect couple - my initial comment was that I don't like the idea of Wonder Woman with Superman. Frankly, I think she should either stay single or be with a very good but not super-powered man (or woman even). For all of her powers, Wonder Woman's greatest traits are her innate goodness, so it makes sense to me that she would look for that in a mate and wouldn't care about super powers one way or another. I don't remember all of the details, but there was a brief love interest in the Rucka run (I think) along these lines. She dated someone who was an activist, but not a superhero. That seems in keeping with the character.

In your comments on Dr. Psycho, are you suggesting that he should be a love interest? That would be a horrible idea. As a villain, though, I couldn't agree with you more. I think he's a great Wonder Woman villain, perhaps the best, and I wish DC would do a lot more with him.

Now here is where I wanted to get down to this debate. Please explain why making Dr. Psycho a love interest would be a horrible idea, excluding the fact that he's a villain. Because I think Dr. Psycho as a love interest is a good idea, I'll present my points in response. Yes, you got that right, I would enjoy seeing Wonder Woman portrayed as a love interest for Dr. Psycho; doesn't have to be permanent, but it would be run to see while it lasted; I'd like the period to take place over the course of a year and see how Dr. Psycho can really flush out Wonder Woman's true traits; if inevitable, it would be fun to see them going through a period of breaking up, to really see Wonder Woman's justifications and Dr. Psycho learning from his mistakes, than ending up in a longer term relationship, but where he and Wonder Woman remained good friends, and perhaps ended up in a future relationship where Dr. Psycho did not make the same mistakes.

Also, that's exactly what I'm talking about; you automatically attributed Wonder Woman with having innate goodness, but where is that actually demonstrated? I already set forth facts for why I'm still curious about that adjective attached to her, where we only see her interactions with the likes of Steve Trevor and the Silver Swan, but where someone like Dr. Psycho, who could call that adjective into question, is often skipped. Of course she can seem that way in the easy environments (e.g. with Superman and the Justice League, Steve Trevor, and the Silver Swan), but what about in more difficult environments with having to constantly interact with a Dr. Psycho?

#32 Edited by SandMan_ (4528 posts) - - Show Bio

We all know it ain't gonna be forever. I will enjoy while it last.

#33 Posted by dmessmer (362 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17 said:

Please explain why making Dr. Psycho a love interest would be a horrible idea, excluding the fact that he's a villain. Because I think Dr. Psycho as a love interest is a good idea, I'll present my points in response. Yes, you got that right, I would enjoy seeing Wonder Woman portrayed as a love interest for Dr. Psycho; doesn't have to be permanent, but it would be run to see while it lasted; I'd like the period to take place over the course of a year and see how Dr. Psycho can really flush out Wonder Woman's true traits; if inevitable, it would be fun to see them going through a period of breaking up, to really see Wonder Woman's justifications and Dr. Psycho learning from his mistakes, than ending up in a longer term relationship, but where he and Wonder Woman remained good friends, and perhaps ended up in a future relationship where Dr. Psycho did not make the same mistakes.

Also, that's exactly what I'm talking about; you automatically attributed Wonder Woman with having innate goodness, but where is that actually demonstrated? I already set forth facts for why I'm still curious about that adjective attached to her, where we only see her interactions with the likes of Steve Trevor and the Silver Swan, but where someone like Dr. Psycho, who could call that adjective into question, is often skipped. Of course she can seem that way in the easy environments (e.g. with Superman and the Justice League, Steve Trevor, and the Silver Swan), but what about in more difficult environments with having to constantly interact with a Dr. Psycho?

Sure, there would be interesting things that could come of it, but for a story to work the characters' motivations have to be clear. What motivation could Wonder Woman possibly have for being with Dr. Psycho? Unless they completely revamp the character (which I guess is possible in the New 52), he represents so many things that Wonder Woman is against. For that reason he's a great villain, but certainly not a love interest. By your logic, DC should make Batman and Joker get together - or Superman and Lex Luthor.

What you've described actually reminded me in some ways of her brief "relationship" with Hades in the New 52 (in issue 8-10). It was a great story line and revealed a lot about Wonder Woman, but it wasn't really a "relationship" or even a "love interest" in the way we've been discussing here (as those issues pointed out, on some level everyone is Wonder Woman's love interest, which is why I don't think she needs a Lois Lane or a Mary Jane Watson or even a Superman).

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#34 Edited by JoseDRiveraTCR7 (1005 posts) - - Show Bio

This relationship is terrible. Shame you gave in. Understandable, though.

#35 Edited by dshipp17 (964 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer said:

@dshipp17 said:

Please explain why making Dr. Psycho a love interest would be a horrible idea, excluding the fact that he's a villain. Because I think Dr. Psycho as a love interest is a good idea, I'll present my points in response. Yes, you got that right, I would enjoy seeing Wonder Woman portrayed as a love interest for Dr. Psycho; doesn't have to be permanent, but it would be run to see while it lasted; I'd like the period to take place over the course of a year and see how Dr. Psycho can really flush out Wonder Woman's true traits; if inevitable, it would be fun to see them going through a period of breaking up, to really see Wonder Woman's justifications and Dr. Psycho learning from his mistakes, than ending up in a longer term relationship, but where he and Wonder Woman remained good friends, and perhaps ended up in a future relationship where Dr. Psycho did not make the same mistakes.

Also, that's exactly what I'm talking about; you automatically attributed Wonder Woman with having innate goodness, but where is that actually demonstrated? I already set forth facts for why I'm still curious about that adjective attached to her, where we only see her interactions with the likes of Steve Trevor and the Silver Swan, but where someone like Dr. Psycho, who could call that adjective into question, is often skipped. Of course she can seem that way in the easy environments (e.g. with Superman and the Justice League, Steve Trevor, and the Silver Swan), but what about in more difficult environments with having to constantly interact with a Dr. Psycho?

Sure, there would be interesting things that could come of it, but for a story to work the characters' motivations have to be clear. What motivation could Wonder Woman possibly have for being with Dr. Psycho? Unless they completely revamp the character (which I guess is possible in the New 52), he represents so many things that Wonder Woman is against. For that reason he's a great villain, but certainly not a love interest. By your logic, DC should make Batman and Joker get together - or Superman and Lex Luthor.

What you've described actually reminded me in some ways of her brief "relationship" with Hades in the New 52 (in issue 8-10). It was a great story line and revealed a lot about Wonder Woman, but it wasn't really a "relationship" or even a "love interest" in the way we've been discussing here (as those issues pointed out, on some level everyone is Wonder Woman's love interest, which is why I don't think she needs a Lois Lane or a Mary Jane Watson or even a Superman).

What are those so many things she's against? Just name 4 of them and why she would be that much against them that she wouldn't want to associate with Dr. Psycho in that way? I don't think this is like the Hades situation. Hades is just bad to the core by his very essence and nature while Dr. Psycho is a human being who can be changed. Joker is basically a flamboyant psychopath and Luther is a power hungry crock. While you should be able to understand how Dr. Psycho has been formed to see things, there's just no justification for Joker's actions and Luther's actions, making them villains for villainy sake. It sounds like either you're making excuses for Wonder Woman or expects people to have the same respect for Wonder Woman for making excuses to back out of a hard situation. The situation with Hades was far less complicated because Hades is the personification of evil.

#36 Posted by dshipp17 (964 posts) - - Show Bio

@josedriveratcr7: I believe the poster responded because this is supposed to be a discussion forum.

#37 Posted by JoseDRiveraTCR7 (1005 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17 said:

@josedriveratcr7: I believe the poster responded because this is supposed to be a discussion forum.

Excuse me, what?

#38 Edited by dshipp17 (964 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17 said:

@josedriveratcr7: I believe the poster responded because this is supposed to be a discussion forum.

Excuse me, what?

You suggested that the poster somehow gave in by participating in a discussion on a discussion forum. Not sure I understand your confusion with such a seemingly easy answer in the context of this discussion.

#39 Edited by JoseDRiveraTCR7 (1005 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17 said:

@josedriveratcr7 said:

@dshipp17 said:

@josedriveratcr7: I believe the poster responded because this is supposed to be a discussion forum.

Excuse me, what?

You suggested that the poster somehow gave in by participating in a discussion on a discussion forum. Not sure I understand your confusion with such a seemingly easy answer in the context of this discussion.

When I wrote "Shame you gave in" I was referring to RT deciding to read the WW-SM book.

#40 Posted by RazzaTazz (9478 posts) - - Show Bio

This relationship is terrible. Shame you gave in. Understandable, though.

I am not sure what the alternative is, given the situation.

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#42 Posted by cloudzackvincent (1026 posts) - - Show Bio

@razzatazz: i m not like this relationship but if i were u, i won't worry too much because it was doomed to end from the very onset.

#43 Edited by dmessmer (362 posts) - - Show Bio

  1. His power is to deceive, whereas Wonder Woman's is to expose truth.
  2. He seeks to control others, whereas Wonder Woman seeks to impact the world as an ambassador and positive example.
  3. He acts out of self interest, Wonder Woman does not.
  4. He frequently expresses very chauvinistic ideas, Wonder Woman believes in the power of Women.

But I must say, listing traits of incompatibility is getting away from my point. In a healthy relationship, the partners aren't together to act as foils to each other in the interest of testing their individual moralities and to face difficult ethical decisions. In a healthy relationship, the partners provide a strong foundation for each other to fully realize the moralities and avenues for happiness that they have already decided upon as individuals.

So the real question isn't what traits of Dr. Psycho would be deal breakers, but what traits would Wonder Woman be attracted to? Do they share similar values? No. Do they have much in common? No. Does he have a good sense of humor? No. Is he good looking? I don't think this would be high on Wonder Woman's priority list, but still, no. Would he help her accomplish goals that she has set for herself? Admittedly, in the New 52 her long-term goals aren't entirely clear, but whatever they are I seriously doubt Dr. Psycho would be a part of them, so no.

Of course, the obvious rejoinder is that what I've described is a healthy relationship, so couldn't they just be in an unhealthy relationship doomed to failure (as you admitted their relationship would ultimately be)? But if the relationship was doomed to failure, why would Wonder Woman be in it? From the feminist beginnings of the character one of her ongoing themes has been that she doesn't need men. I would have a hard time believing that this woman who has been single for so much of her history would suddenly settle for such a toxic relationship as the one she would inevitably have with Dr. Psycho.

As with Hades, I can see Wonder Woman feeling compassion for Dr. Psycho, wanting to aid in his rehabilitation, perhaps even feeling fondness in certain circumstances. But love is something that would defy the central motivations of the character, and thus wouldn't work.

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#44 Edited by dshipp17 (964 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer said:

  1. His power is to deceive, whereas Wonder Woman's is to expose truth.
  2. He seeks to control others, whereas Wonder Woman seeks to impact the world as an ambassador and positive example.
  3. He acts out of self interest, Wonder Woman does not.
  4. He frequently expresses very chauvinistic ideas, Wonder Woman believes in the power of Women.

But I must say, listing traits of incompatibility is getting away from my point. In a healthy relationship, the partners aren't together to act as foils to each other in the interest of testing their individual moralities and to face difficult ethical decisions. In a healthy relationship, the partners provide a strong foundation for each other to fully realize the moralities and avenues for happiness that they have already decided upon as individuals.

So the real question isn't what traits of Dr. Psycho would be deal breakers, but what traits would Wonder Woman be attracted to? Do they share similar values? No. Do they have much in common? No. Does he have a good sense of humor? No. Is he good looking? I don't think this would be high on Wonder Woman's priority list, but still, no. Would he help her accomplish goals that she has set for herself? Admittedly, in the New 52 her long-term goals aren't entirely clear, but whatever they are I seriously doubt Dr. Psycho would be a part of them, so no.

Of course, the obvious rejoinder is that what I've described is a healthy relationship, so couldn't they just be in an unhealthy relationship doomed to failure (as you admitted their relationship would ultimately be)? But if the relationship was doomed to failure, why would Wonder Woman be in it? From the feminist beginnings of the character one of her ongoing themes has been that she doesn't need men. I would have a hard time believing that this woman who has been single for so much of her history would suddenly settle for such a toxic relationship as the one she would inevitably have with Dr. Psycho.

As with Hades, I can see Wonder Woman feeling compassion for Dr. Psycho, wanting to aid in his rehabilitation, perhaps even feeling fondness in certain circumstances. But love is something that would defy the central motivations of the character, and thus wouldn't work.

Appears there was some type of account limit on the number of posts that I could make, I’m guessing, in the period of a day, which seems to be 7.

Wonder Woman representing truth is simply a perception of her character. She does not represent truth anymore than Batman, Superman, Aquaman, or the other members of the Justice League. I’d say demonstrate that Wonder Woman represents truth any more than the Martian Manhunter. Although Dr. Psycho has come to rely on deception, I most certainly would not go so far as saying he represents deception anymore than say Batman.

It seems like you really need to research Dr. Psycho’s background and try to learn how to empathize with him better. During the process of empathizing with Dr. Psycho, I hope you can than come to better understand Dr. Psycho. Now, as someone who went through Dr. Psycho’s background and coming to an understanding of how Dr. Psycho was developed, I do not see him so much an evil individual as much as an individual who has become embittered.

According to Dr. Psycho’s background, he was constantly picked on and laughed at by women, due to his looks and size. After prolonged exposure to the taunts of women, he slowly became embittered with women. Thus, Dr. Psycho is acting out against women as an expression of hurt inflicted upon him by women.

Now, Wonder Woman, who supposedly has noble qualities, should take the time to examine Dr. Psycho’s background to understand him. Initially, this should happen simply because he’s an adversary to her, so, learning his background is sound tactics for facing enemies. Instead, Wonder Woman has either taken the route to judge Dr. Psycho based on his demeanor, rather than understanding his background; this is in contrast to the Silver Swan. Thus, Wonder Woman has chosen the route of being one of the many women to taught Dr. Psycho. That approach clearly removes her from actually being noble, even though people want to characterize her as noble. Thus, Dr. Psycho acts as a good foil. In all honesty, though, the question of whether Wonder Woman understands Dr. Psycho’s background is unclear, because Dr. Psycho, in association with Wonder Woman, has not been developed that well, as Wonder Woman # 168 volume 1 was abandoned, and never revisited after COIE. As such, we don’t know if this Wonder Woman has taken the time to understand Dr. Psycho’s background; pre-crisis Wonder Woman appeared to have an unexplained understanding of Dr. Psycho’s background.

Because Dr. Psycho is acting out of hurt, I don’t agree that Dr. Psycho represents deception, control, only interested in himself, and chauvinistic. Nor do I agree that Wonder Woman represents truth and selfless. Wonder Woman’s being an ambassador and believing in the power of women does not entitle her to be understood as representing truth and selflessness. Actually, so strongly wanting to empower women can be seen as a selfish attribute with Wonder Woman being a woman. A male wanting to empower women would more closely represent selflessness. Essentially, Wonder Woman does not know Dr. Psycho and does not appear to be trying to know Dr. Psycho. A relationship starts with trying to know someone, despite how people from the outside looking in might want to judge a person and the relationship. Thus, Wonder Woman is actually being quite selfish in refusing to understand Dr. Psycho better and deceiving herself about Dr. Psycho by refusing to get to know him better. That’s not necessarily that important, if we’re examining any woman from the wild blue yonder, but it’s very important for examining someone who has a reputation for being noble, such as Wonder Woman.

Thus, being selfless, as you put it, why would Wonder Woman’s motivation for being in a relationship with Dr. Psycho be important? But, one motivation that I could think of is Wonder Woman took the time to get to know Dr. Psycho and got in a relationship with him out of selflessness and understanding that Dr. Psycho has never known anything other than loneliness in the relationship category all of his life, for starters. Than Dr. Psycho comes off as the selfish one for being unable to grown out of his hurt and self-pity to experience the blessing presented to him by Wonder Woman. Wonder Woman than emerges as the character that she’s so frequently claimed to be, someone full of goodness and selflessness.

We can’t say whether they share similar values because Dr. Psycho has never had a moment to live outside of his hurt, whereas, Wonder Woman has always lived outside of the hurt that Dr. Psycho continually faces (e.g. Silver Swan on the female side). Once Dr. Psycho is drawn out of this state, he and Wonder Woman may indeed have similar values, but the burden is really on Wonder Woman to get to know Dr. Psycho more so than on Dr. Psycho. Having a lot in common is mostly irrelevant to a healthy relationship, as an initial matter for starting the relationship, provided Wonder Woman comes out of her shield and decides to get to know Dr. Psycho. Is a sense of humor a deal breaker, as far as Wonder Woman is concerned? However, getting to know Dr. Psycho can help her overcome that problem, if she did consider it a deal breaker; however, Dr. Psycho has a great sense of humor, although his a sense of humor that may not be universally acceptable. I’d be really interested to find out if Dr. Psycho’s not looking good was a factor in Wonder Woman’s refusal to know Dr. Psycho better; and that lasso of truth could be very important in knowing the answer to that question. If so, can we still say she’s full of goodness as compared to the other members of the Justice League or the average Joe or Jane anywhere on earth? If given a chance, Dr. Psycho might indeed help Wonder Woman accomplish her goals. Wonder Woman could help Dr. Psycho accomplish his true goals once she got to know him outside his acting upon his state of hurt. His goals would probably be fund to be very different. If they got to know each other this could indeed be a healthy relationship. We don’t know if Dr. Psycho would say the Hell with everything and persist in his evil ways, once romantically touched by Wonder Woman, or, if he did, whether her romantic touch would be the beginning of the end of his pursuit of his evil ways.

#45 Edited by dmessmer (362 posts) - - Show Bio

Regarding Wonder Woman as a symbol of truth, um, she carries the Lasso of Truth. As far as Dr. Psycho being deceptive - making people see things that aren't there is inherently deceptive. And if the actions of a few women have caused him to mistrust all women, then he is passing judgment on an entire group based on the actions of a few, and failing to see women as individuals - they are simply a category to him. That's chauvinism.

More importantly, the very notion that a woman should be with a man in order to heal his pain and fix the psychological wounds that he has suffered is the core of chauvinism. As I already said, Wonder Woman should absolutely show compassion towards Dr. Psycho. Does that mean she should have sex with him? Does she have to be with any man who has felt wronged by a woman in order for her to avoid being selfish and ignoble? That's not just chauvinism but a warped and hateful version of sexism.

Wonder Woman's motivation is vital to all of this. People get into romantic relationships out of desire and attraction. So, Wonder Woman would have to have a reason to desire Dr. Psycho, otherwise she'd only be with him out of pity. I see no reason. His needs are not a reason. To suggest that they are is incredibly sexist. Again, her sense of compassion and love (in a Platonic sense) for all beings would give her reason to understand, perhaps even befriend, Dr. Psycho if he is capable of reforming his more destructive personality traits, but for her to be romantically involved because she pities him would be pathetic and dishonest - two things that she is not.

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#46 Edited by dshipp17 (964 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer said:

Regarding Wonder Woman as a symbol of truth, um, she carries the Lasso of Truth. As far as Dr. Psycho being deceptive - making people see things that aren't there is inherently deceptive. And if the actions of a few women have caused him to mistrust all women, then he is passing judgment on an entire group based on the actions of a few, and failing to see women as individuals - they are simply a category to him. That's chauvinism.

More importantly, the very notion that a woman should be with a man in order to heal his pain and fix the psychological wounds that he has suffered is the core of chauvinism. As I already said, Wonder Woman should absolutely show compassion towards Dr. Psycho. Does that mean she should have sex with him? Does she have to be with any man who has felt wronged by a woman in order for her to avoid being selfish and ignoble? That's not just chauvinism but a warped and hateful version of sexism.

Wonder Woman's motivation is vital to all of this. People get into romantic relationships out of desire and attraction. So, Wonder Woman would have to have a reason to desire Dr. Psycho, otherwise she'd only be with him out of pity. I see no reason. His needs are not a reason. To suggest that they are is incredibly sexist. Again, her sense of compassion and love (in a Platonic sense) for all beings would give her reason to understand, perhaps even befriend, Dr. Psycho if he is capable of reforming his more destructive personality traits, but for her to be romantically involved because she pities him would be pathetic and dishonest - two things that she is not.

I believe you’re totally giving a misunderstanding for having the lasso of truth. The lasso is merely an offensive device to aid her in her journey as a superhero; additionally, it was given to her as a gift, either for winning a contest or by the Olympians, depending on which version is now more applicable. The lasso of truth makes her no more a symbol of truth than the bracers make her a symbol of defense or the Tierra makes her the symbol of the castle.

Again, it’s about getting to know a person that’s important to a relationship. The process usually starts by opening up to someone. The concept is not sexist at all, but the basics of how any association forms between two people from one stage to another. People who have been bitter enemies at one point have become friends at a later time, but it usually begins by one of the people deciding to be the stronger person and starting the process of coming out of being bitter enemies.

Making people see things that aren't there does not make Dr. Psycho a symbol of deception, and again, he has to move from one phase of development to a more mature phase of his development. Everyone has to do that, including Wonder Woman; it's apart of the process of growing older and wiser. Again, please study Dr. Psycho’s background in some degree of detail. It clearly was not a few women that contributed to Dr. Psycho’s development. It was many women, pretty much every women he would meet that picked on him and mocked him. Essentially, if Dr. Psycho were just walking around and happened upon a woman, he’d be picked on by her. This than formed his opinion of women. There’s no indication whatsoever that it was women who had formed a click or something that picked on Dr. Psycho at one period of his life or a few women that bullied Dr. Psycho. Generally, if he encountered a woman, he’d be picked on. And yes, if you attempted to empathize with Dr. Psycho’s plight, you should be able to understand how his degree of hurt has caused him to pass judgement on women. Lots of women who’s experienced betray in a relationship will pass judgement on men as a group; it’s basically a human reaction or one expression to being hurt, is my point. Should a man who gets in a relationship with a woman who’s been extensively involved in the women’s rights movement be compelled to leave her, because he’s essentially with her only out of pity?

No, it’s not chauvinistic to think that a woman should get into a relationship to heal a man's psychological wounds. The point I’m making is the stronger of the two in some human aspect getting into the relationship after having gotten to know the weaker person in one respect is a foundation of forming a friendship; that’s a basic or healthy part of connecting with people. And again, Wonder Woman is not just your average Jane, so I’m not applying those same standards to her. My suggestion is neither chauvinistic or a hateful version of sexism. If one person decides that they just won’t commit to knowing a person, than that person is simply not selfless; that person certainly does not have any personality traits that I would consider exceptional, as the notion with Wonder Woman appears to be with most people you ask about her; a person who won't get to know another person is in a state of immaturity that she won’t escape. And no, eventually having sex with Dr. Psycho won’t be just because she understands he was wronged by women for the sake of that, but because she took the time to get to know Dr. Psycho better. It’s because she took the time to escape a certain level of immaturity and demonstrates such in the mind of some people that’s monitoring her behavior.

Well, not all relationships started because the two people found each other desirable and attractive at first blush. Some relationships formed after the two had gotten to know each other over a period of time. Of course, that can’t happen if one person decides that she’ll never get to know the other person, where ego is the major barrier. Pity wouldn’t be the only reason or any reason for the relationship. Getting to know someone apparently allows people the opportunity to find desirable traits about a person, where initially, there was no point of desire. That’s where you get into those situation where you ask to yourself, how does she stand that person? But just say that maybe pity was initially a reason, but, after sleeping with Dr. Psycho, she’s now with him because he’s really good with oral sex? I’m sure Dr. Psycho would be happy to oblige and discovered that he also likes her scent. Now, she’s with him because he’s good at oral sex. She took the time to get to know him, in a manner of speaking. My oral sex with a girl really helped my interaction with the woman that became my girlfriend.

#47 Edited by dmessmer (362 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17 said:

No, it’s not chauvinistic to think that a woman should get into a relationship to heal a man's psychological wounds.

Yes, it is. You're essentially saying that Wonder Woman's attraction to Dr. Psycho would be based on what she could offer him, not on what he could offer her. Dr. Psycho, too, is inherently chauvinistic. Whatever the reason, hating women as a category is chauvinistic. In fact, that is the definition of chauvinism.

Sure, people change and people can come to rethink their opinion of someone. But the notion a woman could be attracted to a man if she just understands him enough is a fiction that we tell ourselves when someone we like doesn't return the affection. If, as they get to know each other better they are to end up together, then Dr. Psycho would still have to have some traits that would inspire attraction in her, and I still haven't heard a compelling reason that she would want to be with him. In what way would he make her life better? How would he bring her happiness? What traits, unique to him, would she find attractive? Why would she choose him over any other man? So far your argument rests on the idea that if she just got to know him well enough she'd realize everything she had to offer him and would then want to be with him. That's a great male fantasy, but it's a fiction; a sexist fiction.

For example, though I don't like the Wonder Woman/Superman pairing, there are some reasons it could make sense: he would understand the weight of responsibility that comes with his powers, and he could relate to her struggle to be a source for good without becoming an overbearing tyrant. Those are things that she probably can't find anywhere else, so Superman has something tangible to offer her that would make her life better - she would have a sympathetic and knowing ear that no one else could provide. He has also traditionally fought for those in need, as has she, so they have shared values. There are reasons to believe that being with him could improve her life, hence her attraction.

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#48 Posted by Squalleon (4155 posts) - - Show Bio

@razzatazz: Which is your problem with the relationship,the execution or the idea behind it?

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#49 Edited by JoseDRiveraTCR7 (1005 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer: Dude, don't argue with this guy. I'm pretty sure he's a troll. Looking at his comment history, he mostly just writes about how great Dr. Psycho could be and how he should be in a relationship with WW. It's a gimmick.

#50 Posted by RazzaTazz (9478 posts) - - Show Bio

@squalleon: Initially the idea behind it, but the execution has been horrible as well. As a female fan of WW there is very little for me in it. It seems to be something for the male fans of SM to live vicariously through.

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