Perrez Simone Rucka Appreciation

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#51 Posted by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (727 posts) - - Show Bio

I disliked Gail's Wonder Woman because of the gaping plot holes, stilted dialogue, overall corniness and less than spectacular art. I never felt like she had a strong grasp on the character and she spent too much time trying to acquiesce to her fan's whims. However things improved greatly when Nicola Scott took over art duties and Gail finally began to find her stride with the Citizen arc.

Perez's run was flawless up until Chris Merriman and even afterwards the writing was good. Rucka's run was a tour de force.

#52 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@SCORPIO_CASSADINE said:

I disliked Gail's Wonder Woman because of the gaping plot holes, stilted dialogue, overall corniness and less than spectacular art. I never felt like she had a strong grasp on the character and she spent too much time trying to acquiesce to her fan's whims. However things improved greatly when Nicola Scott took over art duties and Gail finally began to find her stride with the Citizen arc.

Perez's run was flawless up until Chris Merriman and even afterwards the writing was good. Rucka's run was a tour de force.

I partially agree, but I think Gail did do somethings well, although she had quite a few issues where I think she just wasn´t in the zone as much. However, the ones where she was like The Circle, The Arc with the Power Girl fight and The Crow children and when Alkyone comes back, all were great and gave WW some new great Rogues.

#53 Posted by Goddessa (200 posts) - - Show Bio

No love for Azzarello here? Hahahaha

#54 Posted by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (727 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

@SCORPIO_CASSADINE said:

I disliked Gail's Wonder Woman because of the gaping plot holes, stilted dialogue, overall corniness and less than spectacular art. I never felt like she had a strong grasp on the character and she spent too much time trying to acquiesce to her fan's whims. However things improved greatly when Nicola Scott took over art duties and Gail finally began to find her stride with the Citizen arc.

Perez's run was flawless up until Chris Merriman and even afterwards the writing was good. Rucka's run was a tour de force.

I partially agree, but I think Gail did do somethings well, although she had quite a few issues where I think she just wasn´t in the zone as much. However, the ones where she was like The Circle, The Arc with the Power Girl fight and The Crow children and when Alkyone comes back, all were great and gave WW some new great Rogues.

The Circle didn't work for me because of it's basic premise, an evil Amazon sworn to protect Hippolyta loves her so much, yet she has to kill her to preserve Amazon ideals even though that would break her vow. It never answered the basic questions of why Hippolyta felt she needed a private guard in the first place. She was Queen of an island paradise that didn't deal with the outside world, why would she feel endangered amongst her sisters and subjects? If Alkyone succeeded in slaying "the Dragon" how would slaughtering their beloved princess unite the Amazons? The "old way" war paint wearing Diana was kind of contrived too, it would have been so much better if Terry Dodson had done all the pencils and the plot made more sense to me.

I really liked the whole idea of Ares' evil children, but then they caused all that death, mayhem and destruction and their big comeuppance was an off panel spanking. It was anticlimactic.

#55 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

I still don´t quite know what you mean. Are you trying to say cause the other Amazons were in hiding. Cause they weren´t. Alkyone had just set up a police state; there was never a point when they were the only four. Or did Alkyone appear somewhere else I don´t know about?

My point was that you will need to explain half the stuff that happen in Circle because of the post-AA

either way, what im trying to say that i dont see it working as a Graphic Novel like Hiketeia did

I see what you are saying about the Graphic Novel, but what I´m saying is that´s how I like to see Gails run, not perfect but with some high points, and good concepts. But lets not get into this again.

By the way did you say you don´t see The Comedian as a villain? He certainly could be considered an Anti-hero, but clearly also a villain. His acts were by and large dispicable. I understand it´s a whole deconstruction of the genre, but to me it is true that The Comedian wasn´t the villain of that particular story, but he was a villian.

he is an antihero, he is the original antihero in fact, is what the 90s grab to copy and mass produce as "original"

and still my point was that he wasnt the villain of the story, you might as well consider Rorschach as a villain too

@jphulk26 said:

@SCORPIO_CASSADINE said:

I disliked Gail's Wonder Woman because of the gaping plot holes, stilted dialogue, overall corniness and less than spectacular art. I never felt like she had a strong grasp on the character and she spent too much time trying to acquiesce to her fan's whims. However things improved greatly when Nicola Scott took over art duties and Gail finally began to find her stride with the Citizen arc.

Perez's run was flawless up until Chris Merriman and even afterwards the writing was good. Rucka's run was a tour de force.

I partially agree, but I think Gail did do somethings well, although she had quite a few issues where I think she just wasn´t in the zone as much. However, the ones where she was like The Circle, The Arc with the Power Girl fight and The Crow children and when Alkyone comes back, all were great and gave WW some new great Rogues.

you keep saying that but they were never reused again on any format, WW has a huge gallery of rogues if you count all of those that have never been used a second time or by a second writer.

@SCORPIO_CASSADINE said:

@jphulk26 said:

The Circle didn't work for me because of it's basic premise, an evil Amazon sworn to protect Hippolyta loves her so much, yet she has to kill her to preserve Amazon ideals even though that would break her vow. It never answered the basic questions of why Hippolyta felt she needed a private guard in the first place. She was Queen of an island paradise that didn't deal with the outside world, why would she feel endangered amongst her sisters and subjects? If Alkyone succeeded in slaying "the Dragon" how would slaughtering their beloved princess unite the Amazons? The "old way" war paint wearing Diana was kind of contrived too, it would have been so much better if Terry Dodson had done all the pencils and the plot made more sense to me.

because you are not taking into consideration that Alkyone was insane...

so thats the explanation

I really liked the whole idea of Ares' evil children, but then they caused all that death, mayhem and destruction and their big comeuppance was an off panel spanking. It was anticlimactic.

it was suppose to be funny because, you know, children created by rape and murder and then being spanked, thats funny

LOL

#56 Posted by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (727 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm a comedy connoisseur and that's not funny worth a damn, regardless of you typing lol in all caps. Your insanity defense doesn't work for me either, the Joker is crazy as hell but his plans usually make a modicum of sense, no matter how warped.

#57 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@SCORPIO_CASSADINE said:

I'm a comedy connoisseur and that's not funny worth a damn, regardless of you typing lol in all caps. Your insanity defense doesn't work for me either, the Joker is crazy as hell but his plans usually make a modicum of sense, no matter how warped.

I was being sarcastic, Rape isnt funny

Alkyone might better if it was written differently, because like i said before in this thread, i do think she has a good motivation is just that it was not well executed

#58 Posted by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (727 posts) - - Show Bio

That I can agree with. :)

#59 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@SCORPIO_CASSADINE said:

@jphulk26 said:

@SCORPIO_CASSADINE said:

I disliked Gail's Wonder Woman because of the gaping plot holes, stilted dialogue, overall corniness and less than spectacular art. I never felt like she had a strong grasp on the character and she spent too much time trying to acquiesce to her fan's whims. However things improved greatly when Nicola Scott took over art duties and Gail finally began to find her stride with the Citizen arc.

Perez's run was flawless up until Chris Merriman and even afterwards the writing was good. Rucka's run was a tour de force.

I partially agree, but I think Gail did do somethings well, although she had quite a few issues where I think she just wasn´t in the zone as much. However, the ones where she was like The Circle, The Arc with the Power Girl fight and The Crow children and when Alkyone comes back, all were great and gave WW some new great Rogues.

The Circle didn't work for me because of it's basic premise, an evil Amazon sworn to protect Hippolyta loves her so much, yet she has to kill her to preserve Amazon ideals even though that would break her vow. It never answered the basic questions of why Hippolyta felt she needed a private guard in the first place. She was Queen of an island paradise that didn't deal with the outside world, why would she feel endangered amongst her sisters and subjects? If Alkyone succeeded in slaying "the Dragon" how would slaughtering their beloved princess unite the Amazons? The "old way" war paint wearing Diana was kind of contrived too, it would have been so much better if Terry Dodson had done all the pencils and the plot made more sense to me.

I really liked the whole idea of Ares' evil children, but then they caused all that death, mayhem and destruction and their big comeuppance was an off panel spanking. It was anticlimactic.

The answer to most of your very reasonable questions is Alkyone was crazy. She obviously suffered from some form of erotomania. Basically it´s the obsessive mental disease stalkers suffer from, and she had that for Queen Hypollyta; her wanting to kill Diana "the dragon" was manifold in reason, but I think it was basically due to her seeing her as a obstacle to her love objects affections i.e. Queen Hip. Also if you remember she was never going to kill Hippolyta in the end. I think it was quite a clever psychological exploration of the conflicts that might arise in such a society, and as far as I know Gail was the first to do that. I would love to see another writer tackle this and take it even further and darker than Gail did. The character and her motivation for me was really interesting. Like a thought game on what issues may arise in an all female society.

You make really good points like the following "She was Queen of an island paradise that didn't deal with the outside world, why would she feel endangered amongst her sisters and subjects? If Alkyone succeeded in slaying "the Dragon" how would slaughtering their beloved princess unite the Amazons?" But I think your looking it at it the wrong way. Your thinking how a rational person would. Its like asking a serial killer, why they kept the bodies in crawl space, and why they took photo evidence of their crimes. The answer is simple. Its because they´re sick.

"I really liked the whole idea of Ares' evil children, but then they caused all that death, mayhem and destruction and their big comeuppance was an off panel spanking. It was anticlimactic."

Again, spot on, I thought the ending was funny, but could have been alot better. It was an anticlimax - I think they should have turned into demon forms of the animals they were possessed by. You know brother adder, goat etc. Then Power Girl and WW could have had the ultimate smack down with them. But this is precisely my problem with the New 52. They are not improving whats gone before; they should have looked at villains like that, one of villains who had potential and started building them up as main rogues of WW. They weren´t perfect, but neither was Braniac or even The Penguin when we first met them. There´s an old saying, don´t throw the baby out with the bath water. I think it applies here. WW needs her cool workable villains, because more than anything a good villain raises the profile of the hero.

Anyway I think you had some really good points. Let me know if my answers were satisfactory to you.

#60 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

@SCORPIO_CASSADINE said:

@jphulk26 said:

@SCORPIO_CASSADINE said:

I disliked Gail's Wonder Woman because of the gaping plot holes, stilted dialogue, overall corniness and less than spectacular art. I never felt like she had a strong grasp on the character and she spent too much time trying to acquiesce to her fan's whims. However things improved greatly when Nicola Scott took over art duties and Gail finally began to find her stride with the Citizen arc.

Perez's run was flawless up until Chris Merriman and even afterwards the writing was good. Rucka's run was a tour de force.

I partially agree, but I think Gail did do somethings well, although she had quite a few issues where I think she just wasn´t in the zone as much. However, the ones where she was like The Circle, The Arc with the Power Girl fight and The Crow children and when Alkyone comes back, all were great and gave WW some new great Rogues.

The Circle didn't work for me because of it's basic premise, an evil Amazon sworn to protect Hippolyta loves her so much, yet she has to kill her to preserve Amazon ideals even though that would break her vow. It never answered the basic questions of why Hippolyta felt she needed a private guard in the first place. She was Queen of an island paradise that didn't deal with the outside world, why would she feel endangered amongst her sisters and subjects? If Alkyone succeeded in slaying "the Dragon" how would slaughtering their beloved princess unite the Amazons? The "old way" war paint wearing Diana was kind of contrived too, it would have been so much better if Terry Dodson had done all the pencils and the plot made more sense to me.

I really liked the whole idea of Ares' evil children, but then they caused all that death, mayhem and destruction and their big comeuppance was an off panel spanking. It was anticlimactic.

The answer to most of your very reasonable questions is Alkyone was crazy. She obviously suffered from some form of erotomania. Basically it´s the obsessive mental disease stalkers suffer from, and she had that for Queen Hypollyta; her wanting to kill Diana "the dragon" was manifold in reason, but I think it was basically due to her seeing her as a obstacle to her love objects affections i.e. Queen Hip. Also if you remember she was never going to kill Hippolyta in the end. I think it was quite a clever psychological exploration of the conflicts that might arise in such a society, and as far as I know Gail was the first to do that. I would love to see another writer tackle this and take it even further and darker than Gail did. The character and her motivation for me was really interesting. Like a thought game on what issues may arise in an all female society.

you know what would be really good?

that the comic actually deal with that, because honestly as you are explaining it, that actually sounds like its right, but one never think of any of that when one reads this comic

the plot holes are valid because Gail doesnt even bother to explain his kind of thing

You make really good points like the following "She was Queen of an island paradise that didn't deal with the outside world, why would she feel endangered amongst her sisters and subjects? If Alkyone succeeded in slaying "the Dragon" how would slaughtering their beloved princess unite the Amazons?" But I think your looking it at it the wrong way. Your thinking how a rational person would. Its like asking a serial killer, why they kept the bodies in crawl space, and why they took photo evidence of their crimes. The answer is simple. Its because they´re sick.

Just because a character is a psycho doesnt mean that everything that they do is justified by the fact that they are psychos

I recommend you watching the movie Seven Psychopaths, it just shows all this different characters that are psychopaths but every single one is different and actually has a motivation and personality, they just dont kill people because they are psychopaths.

and is one of the funniest movies i have seen in the entire year and Christopher Walken is just great on it

"I really liked the whole idea of Ares' evil children, but then they caused all that death, mayhem and destruction and their big comeuppance was an off panel spanking. It was anticlimactic."

Again, spot on, I thought the ending was funny, but could have been alot better. It was an anticlimax - I think they should have turned into demon forms of the animals they were possessed by. You know brother adder, goat etc. Then Power Girl and WW could have had the ultimate smack down with them. But this is precisely my problem with the New 52. They are not improving whats gone before; they should have looked at villains like that, one of villains who had potential and started building them up as main rogues of WW. They weren´t perfect, but neither was Braniac or even The Penguin when we first met them. There´s an old saying, don´t throw the baby out with the bath water. I think it applies here. WW needs her cool workable villains, because more than anything a good villain raises the profile of the hero.

Anyway I think you had some really good points. Let me know if my answers were satisfactory to you.

I agree with that

#61 Edited by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

@jphulk26 said:

@SCORPIO_CASSADINE said

you know what would be really good?

that the comic actually deal with that, because honestly as you are explaining it, that actually sounds like its right, but one never think of any of that when one reads this comic

the plot holes are valid because Gail doesnt even bother to explain his kind of thing

You make really good points like the following "She was Queen of an island paradise that didn't deal with the outside world, why would she feel endangered amongst her sisters and subjects? If Alkyone succeeded in slaying "the Dragon" how would slaughtering their beloved princess unite the Amazons?" But I think your looking it at it the wrong way. Your thinking how a rational person would. Its like asking a serial killer, why they kept the bodies in crawl space, and why they took photo evidence of their crimes. The answer is simple. Its because they´re sick.

Just because a character is a psycho doesnt mean that everything that they do is justified by the fact that they are psychos

I recommend you watching the movie Seven Psychopaths, it just shows all this different characters that are psychopaths but every single one is different and actually has a motivation and personality, they just dont kill people because they are psychopaths.

Yep again I see what your saying; but psychopaths aren´t crazy per se, they can appear to be normal, which is why they are so dangerous. But my point is their end game is crazy but they apply rational means to achieve those crazy ends, at least the stalker and serial killer variety of psychopaths like Alkyone was. So my point which I think you agreed with is you can´t understand her crazy end game. Her plan was diabolical, and achieved through cunning and manipulation, but your trying to understand the motive of Buffalo Bill, because he appears so normal from the outside, but your never going to understrand a man who manipulates women into traps and then skins them so as to make a woman suit. The only reason for them wanting to do what they´re doing is cause they´re whacked out. Gail should have emphasized this more so as not to cause confusion as you said, cause it was a very subtle story. But when someone is trying to kill babies like Alkyone was, and has the kind of cunning and charisma to lead their group to believe, killing a new born child is something nobel to do, your talking about a Manson style persona. Thats what I thought was so interesting and that could be taken in a deeper direction. Obviously not too whacked out, not like Silence Of The Lambs meets superhero genre (that was just an example) but more like actually looking at how a individual with a "Manson" like delusional belief or a genuine sick psychopath would function under the conditions set out by Paradise Island. What was her back story, how did she come to be like this? I think it could make a fantastic one off graphic novel.

#62 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

@arnoldoaad said:

Yep again I see what your saying; but psychopaths aren´t crazy per se, they can appear to be normal, which is why they are so dangerous. But my point is their end game is crazy but they apply rational means to achieve those crazy ends, at least the stalker and serial killer variety of psychopaths like Alkyone was. So my point which I think you agreed with is you can´t understand her crazy end game.

But the problem is that I cant understand it, not because I cant understand the character but because Gail didnt bother on actually trying to explain how was that going to work

Her plan was diabolical, and achieved through cunning and manipulation, but your trying to understand the motive of Buffalo Bill, because he appears so normal from the outside, but your never going to understrand a man who manipulates women into traps and then skins them so as to make a woman suit. The only reason for them wanting to do what they´re doing is cause they´re whacked out. Gail should have emphasized this more so as not to cause confusion as you said, cause it was a very subtle story. But when someone is trying to kill babies like Alkyone was, and has the kind of cunning and charisma to lead their group to believe, killing a new born child is something nobel to do, your talking about a Manson style persona. Thats what I thought was so interesting and that could be taken in a deeper direction. Obviously not too whacked out, not like Silence Of The Lambs meets superhero genre (that was just an example) but more like actually looking at how a individual with a "Manson" like delusional belief or a genuine sick psychopath would function under the conditions set out by Paradise Island. What was her back story, how did she come to be like this? I think it could make a fantastic one off graphic novel. etc

the way I see it, being a psychopath just releases the person from the restriction from doing stuff that normal people wouldnt do but they are still normal people

saying that They are crazy as an excuse just doesnt work

your point about her being obsess with Hippolyta, and wants to have her all for herself which is why she wants to kill Diana

that makes sense, but is no where in the comic

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