Perrez Simone Rucka Appreciation

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#1 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

I just wanted to thank these writers for their contribution to Wonder Woman´s mythos, I get so giddy after finishing one of their story lines. They are the best, each bringing something out of the Amazonian warrior we´d never seen before.

Any fans of any of these runs, let me know your favorite moments.

Also if anyone wants to comment on Greg Ruckas Wonder Woman: Earth One that could have been, please do.

#2 Posted by RazzaTazz (9676 posts) - - Show Bio
@jphulk26: I really liked Challenge of the Gods
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#3 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

I really don't care for Rucka's WW work, but the other two are quite good.

#4 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@FadeToBlackBolt: I think Rucka wrote great stories, like the action and the story was really engaging, and more consistent than any of these 3, but I liked Simones characterization of Wonder Woman more.

@RazzaTazz: I still need to read that actually. I read Gods and Mortals and loved it, but at the time I was looking for a Wonder Woman origin. Challenge of The Gods is next on my list. I have read Perez on other superheroes as well, he´s really a great writer.

#5 Posted by RazzaTazz (9676 posts) - - Show Bio
@jphulk26: Yes it is weird because writers that start out as artists can often not be very good, but he is.  Just for the record I like the Rucka stories as well.  The Max Lord issue was quite good.  
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#6 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz: I think the Medusa story was Rucka at his finest, and the following issues where she´s blind and takes on The Justice League, I think that was the moment I was like, this chick is cool. ;)

#7 Posted by RazzaTazz (9676 posts) - - Show Bio
@jphulk26: Yes I really like the Medusa story line, especially when she sacrifices her own eyesight to save everyone
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#8 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz: Wow are we the only fans of the best runs of WW on a WW forum. I know people like Azz including yourself, but come on, I think this forum should be renamed Azzerrello´s Wonder Woman appreciation Or New Is Better, New Is Always Better. :) yes I am kidding.

#9 Posted by RazzaTazz (9676 posts) - - Show Bio
@jphulk26: The new stuff is ok, I am waiting for the return to some more traditional subject matter.  
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#10 Posted by Mercy_ (92853 posts) - - Show Bio
@FadeToBlackBolt
I really don't care for Rucka's WW work, but the other two are quite good.
You just complimented Gail Simone o_O
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#11 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz: Well at least I´m not the only one.

#12 Posted by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz said:

@jphulk26: The new stuff is ok, I am waiting for the return to some more traditional subject matter.

Yup.

Rise of the Olympian from Gail Simone and Aaron Lopresti. All of that good Genocide stuff was so great. I just finished reading challenge of the Gods and that was some pretty pinnacle stuff.

#13 Posted by RazzaTazz (9676 posts) - - Show Bio
@Press Oblivion: I am one of the few that I know of that really liked the Messner Loebs run
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#14 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz: I don´t like the way he over sexualised her out fit. I read some and Artemis when she was WW was practically wearing a gstring. I don´t know if that was him but it put me off. Can you recommend any I should read, cause I have to say the stuff I read of his seemed - a bit I don´t know - awkward or something, like on one level the art was racy and adult, but the dialogue was very simplistic, almost like stuff from Golden Age.

#15 Posted by OutlawRenegade (1251 posts) - - Show Bio

This shouldbe Perez, Rucka, Azzarello appreciation. Simone's run was very lackluster.

#16 Posted by RazzaTazz (9676 posts) - - Show Bio
@jphulk26: His run needs to be read all together, as opposed to a lot of big events like in others' runs it was a slow burn which showed off her character a lot better.  Deodato did go a bit overboard with the sexualization though
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#17 Posted by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz: I haven't read that since it was published but I did enjoy the art of Mike Deadato Jr. on the title. The introduction of Artemis as the new Wonder Woman and the moral struggle that ensued was something that brought new readers to the title at the time.

@OutlawRenegade: I really enjoyed Simone's run because there was a certain humanity to her character that I just thought was portrayed well. She wasn't questioning who she was or full of doubt. There was a strength to her that wasn't arrogant and I felt that Simone was really building up to something with the advent on Achilles and the change of Themyscira from a single sex habitation.

#18 Edited by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz: OK, I´ll try it again. Off topic, can i tell you the one thing that really pissed me off about Gail Simones run, and infact the animated film. It was just so annoying - she writes Ares as this super cool, manipulative villain, and then WW just either hacks his head off or bludgens him with an axe. That comic run, where she did that to Ares was so annoying, after all the tention and build up, that needed to be a whole comic dedicated to a Ares/WW smack down, where he used his powers, raised the dead, caused more havok and then she axed him in the head. It was such a wasted opportunity, cause I love how he came back from the dead and the stuff with the Hellions, but Ares deserved better. She really knew how to write him in a menacing way. like when he licked the lasso saying "the lasso should taste like war cause war is truth" and then went on to compare the Lasso to the taste of copper or like a womans blood. It was bordering on the sinister Ares I´d always imagined. Also in the film he shouldn´t have just been killed like that, he was awesome.

@OutlawRenegade said:

This shouldbe Perez, Rucka, Azzarello appreciation. Simone's run was very lackluster.

Come on man, you know enough by now, that was never going to happen. ;)

#19 Posted by RazzaTazz (9676 posts) - - Show Bio
@Press Oblivion: Yes it really built up to that though, it was pretty well handled.  When Hippolyta showed up again, the readers were kind of wondering if it would ever happen.   
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#20 Posted by RazzaTazz (9676 posts) - - Show Bio
@jphulk26: He can be one of her best villains when used right
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#21 Edited by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

I still havent read Perez run

Rucka's run was really good, i think Hikateia is the best WW story ever made, just phenomenal characterization and plot, and the art was just great 10/10

as for the actual WW book, there are parts that i liked and parts that i didnt, like Zeus wife just kicking paradise island from the sky just because of a temper tantrum, but the plot that came from it was actually really good, it just that DC didnt allowed Rucka to go anywhere with it because of IC, so it had a lot of problems but i liked what he did in the most part

Simone run, I really didnt care, I didnt liked it but i didnt thought it was all awful

I didnt liked the circle cause i really didnt felt the amazons(forgot their names) as good villains, mainly cause i thought their motivations were really forced into conflict, like i really could have seen WW to convince them that they ways were wrong without going into a fight

The Rise of the Olympians was just terrible, definitely the worst arc in the entire run, mainly for 2 reasons

1- it had absolutely nothing to do with the Olympians, and even the entire plot of creating the Olympians in the first place just leads absolutely nowhere

and 2- that Genocide was just a very mediocre villain, its just a thing, not a character, it has no motivation, no personality, i know it was suppouse to be WW Doomsday villain but even its origin sucks, its a WW corpse from the future mixed with dirt of Uganda and Germany and somethings like that, is just very very stupid.

the rest of the run is just unmemorable to me

finally Simone's sense of humor is just not very good, like the white apes, i think they were suppose to be funny but i never thought they were funny

#22 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad: Ooooooh, thats a lot of Simone hate. ;) Were the white apes meant to be funny? I do think overall Rucka had a better run, but on the other hand I think Simone did alot for WW worth keeping. I think she added some solid additions to her Rogues gallery, including Genocide and Alkyone and The Hellions who you don´t like. Genocide was a kind of Doomsday for WW, but at the same time even Doomsday wasn´t brilliant. His origin has been worked on by later writers, but he really had no character at first, I think that something later writers can build on. Her look was also awful, but again later artisits could improve that, but as a concept Genocide is a good physical foil for WW, something she really needed. As for Alkyone, I really like her she´s one of my favorite WW villians and so much more could be done with her. Personally I´d like to see the Circle written again, with a darker edge where Alkyone sets up a police state on Paradise Island, banning all sexuality and maternal instinct because she thinks it dangerous to the Island, all the time remaining with some perverse loyalty to Queen Hippolyta bordering on infatuation. Thats kind of what I would do with the character. Please at least tell me you liked the Hellions?

#23 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

@arnoldoaad: Ooooooh, thats a lot of Simone hate. ;)

Is more like indiference on this run

Were the white apes meant to be funny? I do think overall Rucka had a better run, but on the other hand I think Simone did alot for WW worth keeping. I think she added some solid additions to her Rogues gallery, including Genocide and Alkyone and The Hellions who you don´t like.

about Alkyone, Is not that i dont like her, I actually like the concept of the character, is just that i dont think the concept was well executed

Genocide is just as generic as you can possibly look for, she is a Doomsday-villain, which is actually a trope and is exactly the textbook definition of it. its not a character just a thing.

about the apes Is not that i dont like them really is just that I mostly dont care

I really cant remember any good scenes with them, but there is one i still recall, WW was taking a bath and she was thinking something, cant remember what(maybe cause she was in the shower XD), and then one of the apes came to the shower to give her a shampoo and call it smelly jelly for hair or something and WW think on how they dont understand the concept of privacy.

im sorry but was that suppose to be funny? I think it does, but im not sure, and if it was meant be funny it just wasnt for me. and this is like the most memorable scene that i can think of this characters.

Genocide was a kind of Doomsday for WW, but at the same time even Doomsday wasn´t brilliant. His origin has been worked on by later writers, but he really had no character at first, I think that something later writers can build on. Her look was also awful, but again later artisits could improve that, but as a concept Genocide is a good physical foil for WW, something she really needed. As for Alkyone, I really like her she´s one of my favorite WW villians and so much more could be done with her. Personally I´d like to see the Circle written again, with a darker edge where Alkyone sets up a police state on Paradise Island, banning all sexuality and maternal instinct because she thinks it dangerous to the Island, all the time remaining with some perverse loyalty to Queen Hippolyta bordering on infatuation. Thats kind of what I would do with the character. Please at least tell me you liked the Hellions?

I really cant speak more about Genocide other than it is not a character, it is just a thing, an object, it had no motivation or emotion or personality, its just blank, and there is nothing that was done with it that wasnt already done and done better in my opinion with Doomsday.

Because Doomsday as generic as he was when he came the first time, he destroys Metropolis, defeats the JLA and Kills superman, and Genocide just beats WW up and steals her lasso, and thats pretty much it, if she did something else i just dont recall.

and one last thing, like i said, its origin just sucks, I remember this scene that i really hated from RotO where WW is talking with T.O.Morrow, and he is kind of telling her(and us the readers) how dangerous Genocide is and just completely out of nowhere tells her that his real name is (something jewish) so he cannot allow himself to have created something named genocide.

and i was like "WTF!", is that the same character from 52 who was such a master genius, I just really lost a lot of respect for the character to just be used by Cheetah(was it her?) to create an evil force which is basically what he does all the time and then just back down cause "it is named genocide and he is jewish" and it is not like Genocide does anything horrible in the series, it is just cause he is very scared of it and the story keeps telling us how much of a threat it is without actually showing us.

so to finish that, if the concept is to make a doomsday villain for WW, I think it can be done much better than this, and even so, what would be the point?

as for Alkyone, like I said, i thought the concept was good but it wasnt well utilized, mainly because of the status quo i think, because there were no other amazons around at the time, and Hippolyta was around at the time, the circle would had work beautifully if it had been done after Hippolyta's death, cause basically the whole motivation of the character is that she is in love(platonic) with Hippolyta and sees Diana as a monster that is either corrupting or leaching Hippolyta, But i just cannot remember a single scene in which Alkyone just tries to talk to Hippolyta who was still around at the time, she does this out of loyalty and love but it just doesnt seem like it actually matters at all.

I think the best parts of Gails WW were the flashbacks, where she actually explored the Amazons history and culture and is specially good with Alkyone, but that same stuff is very weak and pointless on the present cause of the status quo post-Amazons Attack.

and finally the apes

they just suck as supporting cast, I honest to god, I read Gail's WW from beginning to end, and I cant remember a single thing about them.

and thats one of Gail's biggest weakness as a writer, she really cant make a compelling supporting cast, which is why she works much better in teambooks cause since she has already a big cast to play with she needs to devote time to every single one of them and how one bounces with the others, thats why BoP and S6 are just great, while in WW and specially Batgirl, there are this couple of characters running around but if they die, i dont care, i dont know them, im not attach to them on any way cause the book is 90% about the main character dealing with the villains

the only other 2 supporting characters that i can think of in her run were Hyppolyta and Nemesis, I just cannot remember any good moments with her until the very end that deals with her sister or something, as with Nemesis

well, who actually gave a crap about him, he was the token boyfriend, ironically the scene that i recall the most is when he leaves her, because she had lied to her about something so he gives her back the lance that hippolyta had given to him and then he goes and doesnt return

so I guess my biggest problem with her run was that it was just very forgettable XD

#24 Posted by divingfalcon713 (283 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26: One of my favorite WW moments was when she blinded herself. I literally had no words. It was amazing.

#25 Edited by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@divingfalcon713 said:

@jphulk26: One of my favorite WW moments was when she blinded herself. I literally had no words. It was amazing.

I wish she would had stayed blind longer, it was well done and it just lasted very little

#26 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad: I agree with alot of your points about Gails run. It was far from perfect, but I think it had some excellent moments, she added a much needed humor and maturity to the wonder woman character and as I said built the basis for some good Rogues that later writers could improve. I mean look at characters like Braniac or even Lex Luthor, they aren´t perfect creations first time out and especially when a writer has to produce a new story every month. It is really difficult, but someone like Alkyone or Genocide or The Hellions are begging for a graphic novel treatment, where a writer could really work on their characters and deliver something great.

Two more things, Gail Simone had to stay in continuity of what was being written before her and actually inherited a really convoluted story line which I think she managed to scale down and make alot more interesting than any writer had done since Ruckas run.

And last, I think Gail, even more than Rucka paid homage to the fun and surreal aspects of William Marstons original WW stories. So as I said before, Gail was not quite as good or should I say consistent as Rucka, but she did alot of good for WW, and made her an appealing character again, with some humor, being badass, but also finding a real feminine voice for her. Some times the comic was too girly for me, but most of the time I think Gail found a balance. The Circle was a great story, then the arch after she had dealt with Genocide was really good, her final battle witH Alkyone was epic, her fight with Power Girl with Ares children was absolutely excellent. Their were some fillers in between, I wasn´t fond of The Beowolf stuff, and although I think Genocide has a lot of potential she could have been executed alot better than she was. Another problem of hers, which I think she really has to stop doing is killing off her WW villains. I hope maybe one day she´ll come back and re-imagine them so they become solid members of WW Rogues.

1. Rucka

2. Perrez

3. Simone

4. Jimminez (and he´s much lower in my estimation than the top 3)

#27 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

@arnoldoaad: I agree with alot of your points about Gails run. It was far from perfect, but I think it had some excellent moments, she added a much needed humor and maturity to the wonder woman character and as I said built the basis for some good Rogues that later writers could improve. I mean look at characters like Braniac or even Lex Luthor, they aren´t perfect creations first time out and especially when a writer has to produce a new story every month. It is really difficult, but someone like Alkyone or Genocide or The Hellions are begging for a graphic novel treatment, where a writer could really work on their characters and deliver something great.

Im going to need a lot examples for humor cause i really dont remember it ever being funny

as for graphic novels. i could see alkyone working well in the current WW considering how Azzarello changed the amazons, as for Genocide, why?

I cant repeat this enough. IT is not a character, it has not concept of character on it, it has no characterization, no motivation, no purpose other than hitting stuff, its not like it has some flaws that can corrected or revised, it has nothing inside of it.

I really dont understand why you and other people think this is a worthy addition to the rogue gallery

Two more things, Gail Simone had to stay in continuity of what was being written before her and actually inherited a really convoluted story line which I think she managed to scale down and make alot more interesting than any writer had done since Ruckas run.

come on, be serious. Rucka had exactly the same problem as Simone, he had to deal with a lot of crap from editorial and continuity

And last, I think Gail, even more than Rucka paid homage to the fun and surreal aspects of William Marstons original WW stories. So as I said before, Gail was not quite as good or should I say consistent as Rucka, but she did alot of good for WW, and made her an appealing character again, with some humor, being badass, but also finding a real feminine voice for her. Some times the comic was too girly for me, but most of the time I think Gail found a balance. The Circle was a great story, then the arch after she had dealt with Genocide was really good, her final battle witH Alkyone was epic, her fight with Power Girl with Ares children was absolutely excellent. Their were some fillers in between, I wasn´t fond of The Beowolf stuff, and although I think Genocide has a lot of potential she could have been executed alot better than she was. Another problem of hers, which I think she really has to stop doing is killing off her WW villains. I hope maybe one day she´ll come back and re-imagine them so they become solid members of WW Rogues.

Oh, I remember that arc, i also remember that some people accused Gail of pulling a WiR by impregnating(i.e. raping) 5 random amazons and then killing them for the sake of it

but the team up was ok

#28 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad: I think we may just have a difference in taste, and about Genocide, as I said alot of villains who turn out to be cool in future, start off having very poor stories or no character at all, but I think "Genocide" as the basic concept as a foil to Wonder Woman, a destructive force, who mames and destroys everything weaker than her, not merely targetting Wonder woman, but rather the vulnerable mass of humanity that WW would give her life to protect is not a bad idea. That can be readdressed in a much more interesting way. Even the stuff about them taking soil from the grounds where mass Genocides happened, is an interesting concept, because again, genocide is the ultimate expression of what wonder Woman is against in Mans world, so if they were able to rewrite a more interesting origin story for Genocide some how connecting her to the spirit of this most evil of forces in the modern world, and have her fight to protect the humanity she´s loves to within an inch of her life, I think Genocide could indeed be a great villain. Maybe next time she could use guns and instruments of war, or, be able to excrete gasses like agent orange or mustard gas from her body. All sorts of things can be done with her.

#29 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

@arnoldoaad: I think we may just have a difference in taste, and about Genocide, as I said a lot of villains who turn out to be cool in future, start off having very poor stories or no character at all, but I think "Genocide" as the basic concept as a foil to Wonder Woman, a destructive force, who mames and destroys everything weaker than her, not merely targetting Wonder woman, but rather the vulnerable mass of humanity that WW would give her life to protect is not a bad idea. That can be readdressed in a much more interesting way.

what can or could be done with Genocide has absolutely nothing to do with what was presented in its storyline, and I saw nothing special on it, I saw nothing that wasnt already done with Doomsday, which leaves the entire character as pointless and unoriginal.

I can understand your point and why you like the fight between the 2, but I see no reason at all why we cant exactly that same thing you are describing and use Doomsday instead of this ripoff

and I still would like an example of a moment in WW that was funny, cause i really dont remember any, or at least any that were suppose to be funny

for example, now that you mentioned the powergirl team up, it ended with WW spanking the 5 kids, is that what you mean by imitating William Marstons, just cause she spanked the evil kids produced by Ares rape.

Im honestly not trolling, im really asking this, what that suppose to be funny?

Even the stuff about them taking soil from the grounds where mass Genocides happened, is an interesting concept, because again, genocide is the ultimate expression of what wonder Woman is against in Mans world,

I thought that was the stupidest part of the origin.

it is just dirt, its not like its evil dirt just cause a crime was committed on it

so if they were able to rewrite a more interesting origin story for Genocide some how connecting her to the spirit of this most evil of forces in the modern world, and have her fight to protect the humanity she´s loves to within an inch of her life, I think Genocide could indeed be a great villain. Maybe next time she could use guns and instruments of war, or, be able to excrete gasses like agent orange or mustard gas from her body. All sorts of things can be done with her.

listen to what you are saying here

if she had a completely different origin or motivation then it wont be the same thing.

its like saying that Liefeld's Glory is the same thing as the current Glory, which btw thats pretty much a destructive Wonder Woman like Genocide but done right, the first volume is titled The Once and Future Destroyer,highly recommended.

point is, i dont care if someone in the future grabs this concept and makes it well, It still fail to be interesting Gail's Run to me, what "could" be done with it on any hypothetical scenario has nothing to do with Gail's run. what was done here is this generic concept with a very complicated origin and no substance behind it.

#30 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad: @arnoldoaad said:

@jphulk26 said:

listen to what you are saying here

if she had a completely different origin or motivation then it wont be the same thing.

its like saying that Liefeld's Glory is the same thing as the current Glory, which btw thats pretty much a destructive Wonder Woman like Genocide but done right, the first volume is titled The Once and Future Destroyer,highly recommended.

point is, i dont care if someone in the future grabs this concept and makes it well, It still fail to be interesting Gail's Run to me, what "could" be done with it on any hypothetical scenario has nothing to do with Gail's run. what was done here is this generic concept with a very complicated origin and no substance behind it.

I´ll defo check out your recommendation. I hear what you´re saying about potential not being the same as actuality. Its very true. However, as I said The Genocide story wasn´t one of my favorites either, but I don´t think the character "or lack of character" should be completely forgotten. I think they should bring her/it back, and try and differentiate her from Doomsday. There were hints in Gail´s story of a possible motivation, they just weren´t clearly demonstrated. possibly because it might have been too graphic. But from what I understood, I think she encompasses the spirit of Genocide, systematic death, a systematic and functional killing machine, whose target is humanity. Now I think that is different from what Doomsday has turned out to be, as he is merely obsessed with wiping out Superman. (I know what you´re going to say, originally Doomsday was just killing at random)

Look part of why I see the potential of Genocide is because I myself have decided to waste the next few months of my life writing a Wonder Woman screenplay/comic trilogy starting with her origin, and her mission to spread her ways of peace to mans world, her disillusionment at its failure, and finally her having given up she is confronted by an evil she just can´t ignore, the powerhouse Genocide. So maybe I´m just getting excited by my own ideas. But nonetheless, I´ve read how Braniac started out, and how Lex Luthor started out, and they are my favorite villians, and they started pretty bad when they were first introduced, but over time the concept has been refined and taken to its logical conclusion and now they´re great. I guess my point is don´t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Wonder Woman has so few villains and continiuity, and she suffers for it, so I want to see Genocide developed. I think as a super modern warrior, as opposed to WW more Greco Roman combat style of warrior. So she´d have guns, dirty bombs and poisoness warfare agents, but as extensions of her own body, with super strength and invulnerability. I think if writers though about it thats the logical conclusion to whats already been done.

Last to address humor, i think there were many humorous and or profound moments in her run, but maybe we just have a different sense of humor.

I thought most of what The Crows did was pretty funny, and of course there could have been a better showdown. The ironic way they talked about society while actually being the instigators of the all the violence erupting was pretty funny to me and really well written.

I think the climax would have been better if the kids had the power to turn into the animal creatures that they were birthed from. But demonic versions of them rather than her spanking them, I agree, however it was till slightly amusing.

I also think Gails treatment of Ares when he got any panel time was always pretty good, which is why I hate she wasted an opportunity to have them properly duke it out. He was pretty sinister yet amusing when ever he showed up.

Last, Alkyone herself had moments that were some what amusing. She was incredibly manipulative and smart and I love how she outwitted Akhilles Zeus´s champion. (sorry for the spelling) Wonder Woman had some good moments as well and was able to make me chuckle with some of her retorts.

Hope this answers your question, but Gails run as I said before was far from perfect. I hated WW relationship with Nemisis. I hated that whole secret agent thing. Rucka having her as Ambassador was much better.

#31 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

@arnoldoaad:

I´ll defo check out your recommendation.

oh please do so, its really really good and very original

I hear what you´re saying about potential not being the same as actuality. Its very true. However, as I said The Genocide story wasn´t one of my favorites either, but I don´t think the character "or lack of character" should be completely forgotten. I think they should bring her/it back, and try and differentiate her from Doomsday. There were hints in Gail´s story of a possible motivation, they just weren´t clearly demonstrated. possibly because it might have been too graphic. But from what I understood, I think she encompasses the spirit of Genocide, systematic death, a systematic and functional killing machine, whose target is humanity. Now I think that is different from what Doomsday has turned out to be, as he is merely obsessed with wiping out Superman. (I know what you´re going to say, originally Doomsday was just killing at random)

Ok i want to attend the bold one first, cause it is not only that Doomsday was killing at random and then focus on superman, he was created to be basically WMD, I havent read Prey, yet but the idea that he is only against Superman is ridiculous, maybe it happen later but he is still this weapon of mass destruction that kills everything, and STILL, if you concider that a factor, it yet another thing that Genocide is copying from Doomsday

there is this scene, which is one of the few scenes I remember very well, when Genocide is talking to someone, i think it was T.O.Morrow but I might be wrong on that, and he calls her Genocide as her name and she responds, "Genocide is not my name, Genocide is what i do", and I think thats pretty much what defines this non-character, it doesnt even have a name, it just do stuff because the plots demands it.

Look part of why I see the potential of Genocide is because I myself have decided to waste the next few months of my life writing a Wonder Woman screenplay/comic trilogy starting with her origin, and her mission to spread her ways of peace to mans world, her disillusionment at its failure, and finally her having given up she is confronted by an evil she just can´t ignore, the powerhouse Genocide. So maybe I´m just getting excited by my own ideas. But nonetheless, I´ve read how Braniac started out, and how Lex Luthor started out, and they are my favorite villians, and they started pretty bad when they were first introduced, but over time the concept has been refined and taken to its logical conclusion and now they´re great. I guess my point is don´t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Wonder Woman has so few villains and continiuity, and she suffers for it, so I want to see Genocide developed. I think as a super modern warrior, as opposed to WW more Greco Roman combat style of warrior. So she´d have guns, dirty bombs and poisoness warfare agents, but as extensions of her own body, with super strength and invulnerability. I think if writers though about it thats the logical conclusion to whats already been done.

This is from a personal point of view but i think a villain that just do evil stuff because he/she/it is the villain never works, I just very recently saw Skyfall and Javier Barden as Silva is not only the best Bond Villain ever but one of the best Villains ever made in fiction, he is presented as this big evil force that is practically unstoppable but he doesnt appear until almost the second half of the movie, and the motivation and drive that he gets to do the stuff that he does is just fantastically well written, very complex and just well done

or another example Joker on TDK, he doesnt do evil stuff just because the plot demands it, what defines the character is in the scene in the GCPD where he just says that every normal human being would do what he is doing given the right chance and he just just ahead of the curve, thats pretty much his philosophy and his motivation is to prove that it is right

Genocide as a character which is only a weapon that kills people and has big guns and poisons, im sorry but that sounds like 90s villain and that is no longer done for a very good reason

Last to address humor, i think there were many humorous and or profound moments in her run, but maybe we just have a different sense of humor.

I thought most of what The Crows did was pretty funny, and of course there could have been a better showdown. The ironic way they talked about society while actually being the instigators of the all the violence erupting was pretty funny to me and really well written.

...

I dont get it

a woman died, and one of the kids wants her wallet

haha?

I not only dont think this is funny, I dont think this is meant to be funny

I think the climax would have been better if the kids had the power to turn into the animal creatures that they were birthed from. But demonic versions of them rather than her spanking them, I agree, however it was till slightly amusing.

I also think Gails treatment of Ares when he got any panel time was always pretty good, which is why I hate she wasted an opportunity to have them properly duke it out. He was pretty sinister yet amusing when ever he showed up.

...

eh, humm

...

ok, thats it.

I mean seriously, how is that scene suppose to be funny

I had completely forgot about this part but now that im looking at it, its actually wrong to make it funny or amusing

Alkyone summons Ares to make a bargain with him to protect Hippolyta, and he just ask for her to kiss the tip of his sword, might I remind that swords often symbolize masculinity because is basically a phallic symbol, so by kissing his sword, she is throwing away her pride as a woman and kneeling to a masculine effigy to protect the woman she loves... from what exactly

ok maybe im reading way too much into it but I dont think you are suppose to laugh at this

Last, Alkyone herself had moments that were some what amusing. She was incredibly manipulative and smart and I love how she outwitted Akhilles Zeus´s champion. (sorry for the spelling) Wonder Woman had some good moments as well and was able to make me chuckle with some of her retorts.

Hope this answers your question, but Gails run as I said before was far from perfect. I hated WW relationship with Nemisis. I hated that whole secret agent thing. Rucka having her as Ambassador was much better.

yeah the ambassador WW was the best part of Rucka's run

#32 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad: Again I just think we have a different sense of humor. But I have enjoyed the debate. ;)

Oh I wasn´t saying I wasn´t going to give Genocide a motivation, or that she shouldn´t be given one, I have to admit that whole episode is what I´ve read least times of her run, only once, cause like you I thought it wasn´t as well done as it could be.

Plus that motive you wrote for The Joker, isn´t much of a motive, and I don´t think all villains have to have some complicated or emotional motive or history, The Joker TDK is an example of that. No history, motive is just to cause chaos, he´s a mystery, great villain. ALthough I think it helps you emotionally connect if they do.

The sword and phallic symbolism is a bit of a stretch to. Apart from that I don´t think you can argue around different taste, you just don´t find funny some things that I do, cause I thought the Crow children were often hillarious, and that Gail as a writer often has a great witty sense of humor, she fails sometimes, but often she gets it really right.

#33 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

@arnoldoaad: Again I just think we have a different sense of humor. But I have enjoyed the debate. ;)

Oh I wasn´t saying I wasn´t going to give Genocide a motivation, or that she shouldn´t be given one, I have to admit that whole episode is what I´ve read least times of her run, only once, cause like you I thought it wasn´t as well done as it could be.

Plus that motive you wrote for The Joker, isn´t much of a motive, and I don´t think all villains have to have some complicated or emotional motive or history, The Joker TDK is an example of that. No history, motive is just to cause chaos, he´s a mystery, great villain. ALthough I think it helps you emotionally connect if they do.

The sword and phallic symbolism is a bit of a stretch to. Apart from that I don´t think you can argue around different taste, you just don´t find funny some things that I do, cause I thought the Crow children were often hillarious, and that Gail as a writer often has a great witty sense of humor, she fails sometimes, but often she gets it really right.

It is not only that i dont think is funny, I just dont see the joke on those panels, I really think you arent meant to laugh at them, I really honestly think you just grab random scans from the run here.

the second scene with the crows just defaming WW, how is the dialog funny, or meant to be, I really dont know what to say.

And even if you consider that the Joker on TDK was doing the stuff that he did only to bring chaos, he was still doing it to prove a point and also because he really enjoyed to create chaos, but it is more about how he sees humanity, he thinks that he is showing the world how they are meant to be or even how they really are, at least that's what i got from the movie and its still much better than what Genocide shown.

I already said this but one of Gail Simone's biggest problems on writing is making good villains, not only here but on Batgirl, on BoP, on Firestorm, on Secret Six, all her villains just lack motivation and general characterization, and 90% of the time they are just the guy to beat up this week and/or just have a very generic motivation like greed or revenge but it is never fully explored and just come up as huge a$$holes, Like the slavers on secret six, you are just meant to hate them cause they are giant douches and have 0 characterization, and yet that arc was actually pretty good, or the Cat's Craddle arc which in my respect is the best thing Gail has ever written in her entire career, and yet the villains have the blandest characterization you can possibly get, they are only doing what they are doing for revenge and money and they are only things for Catman to torture and kill and nothing else cause the focus is on catman doing this stuff not on them, they couldnt matter less,

also one of the best features of Gail's writing is bouncing characters from one to another, again, thats why her work on team books is so good cause she has a ton of characters to play with, in the case of WW, when is only WW completely alone, and the villains mostly suck, and there is virtually no supporting cast, then there is just a limit of what she can do with her before becoming dull or repetitive, god knows i found her batgirl getting repetitive after just 3 issues, with WW I just think of her as very forgettable characterization,

#34 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad: Look the panels I took, are not the funniest bits from her WW, they are simply the best I could find on the web.

If you want to explain why I find that funny I will, but I don´t see the point. But here goes. Clearly what is supposed to be humorous about the Crows, is their mannered and affectatious speech, their polite prep school behavior and appearance, being completely incongruous with their absolute blood lust, and psychopathic need to cause as much mayhem and destruction as they can. The clear glee they take in doing it, and, their feigned naivety of how they are inciting the whole city into a murderous rage is presented in a comic manner. Again these are characters that could easily be used again and taken even further than Gail did.

In the Alkyone panel what I found humorous about Ares characterization, which has rarely been seen in depictions of WW´s Ares, is that Hannibal Lector like mixture, of sophistication, wit, and, charm operating within a beastly and absolutely inhuman force of nature. Again she could have taken it a lot further than she did but in the panel I posted, I found his exchange with Alkyone, where he says "Really its only through Abject worship that someone like you gains any sense of self worth at all" again it is clear this is supposed to be humorous, but you don´t find it funny, so what can I say. There are better examples of the humor in Gails run, but I don´t want to scower the internet in search of them. If you don´t find that funny I´m ok with that. I mean I´m not saying its laugh out loud double over yourself funny, its just sinister I´m not supposed to find that "humorous" but it kind of is "funny". Its also taken out of context, especially the Crow children panel.

In terms of her villains motivations, off of the top of my head, thinking of the villains she created for the run, their are a few, The Stalker (wanted his soul back, I didn´t like this whole story anyway, but he did have a motive) The Crow Children were obviously extensions of Ares and wanted vengence for Wonder Woman killing their father, Alkyone and the Circle had fantastic and really original motive, and I was deeply engaged in that story, Captain Nazi (who I think was just a nod to WMM the creator of WW) wanted to find a new Father Land to settle and therefore tried to take over Themyscira and turn it into the new Nazi Reich Land. Each had a motivation that seemed to me in fitting with their character. So I haven´t read much of Gails other stuff so I can´t comment on what she´s done outside Wonder Woman. However, with in her run given the premiss of most of the characters I found their motivation satisfactory. I also think that her characters can be improved, she just added some colorful additions to WW rogues, that given the right writer could be made even more compelling and their back stories refined, just like most comic super-villains. I don´t want each WW run to feel like a completely seperate thing from the one before. If they are to build her as a character and build her Rogues gallery, I think they need to take these new additions, and get other writers to do their own spin on them. Thats how supervillains improve and become great like The Joker or Lex Luthor.

#35 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

@arnoldoaad: Look the panels I took, are not the funniest bits from her WW, they are simply the best I could find on the web.

If you want to explain why I find that funny I will, but I don´t see the point. But here goes. Clearly what is supposed to be humorous about the Crows, is their mannered and affectatious speech, their polite prep school behavior and appearance, being completely incongruous with their absolute blood lust, and psychopathic need to cause as much mayhem and destruction as they can. The clear glee they take in doing it, and, their feigned naivety of how they are inciting the whole city into a murderous rage is presented in a comic manner. Again these are characters that could easily be used again and taken even further than Gail did.

In the Alkyone panel what I found humorous about Ares characterization, which has rarely been seen in depictions of WW´s Ares, is that Hannibal Lector like mixture, of sophistication, wit, and, charm operating within a beastly and absolutely inhuman force of nature. Again she could have taken it a lot further than she did but in the panel I posted, I found his exchange with Alkyone, where he says "Really its only through Abject worship that someone like you gains any sense of self worth at all" again it is clear this is supposed to be humorous, but you don´t find it funny, so what can I say. There are better examples of the humor in Gails run, but I don´t want to scower the internet in search of them. If you don´t find that funny I´m ok with that. I mean I´m not saying its laugh out loud double over yourself funny, its just sinister I´m not supposed to find that "humorous" but it kind of is "funny". Its also taken out of context, especially the Crow children panel.

nah, i dont see it

In terms of her villains motivations, off of the top of my head, thinking of the villains she created for the run, their are a few, The Stalker (wanted his soul back, I didn´t like this whole story anyway, but he did have a motive) The Crow Children were obviously extensions of Ares and wanted vengence for Wonder Woman killing their father, Alkyone and the Circle had fantastic and really original motive, and I was deeply engaged in that story, Captain Nazi (who I think was just a nod to WMM the creator of WW) wanted to find a new Father Land to settle and therefore tried to take over Themyscira and turn it into the new Nazi Reich Land. Each had a motivation that seemed to me in fitting with their character. So I haven´t read much of Gails other stuff so I can´t comment on what she´s done outside Wonder Woman. However, with in her run given the premiss of most of the characters I found their motivation satisfactory. I also think that her characters can be improved, she just added some colorful additions to WW rogues, that given the right writer could be made even more compelling and their back stories refined, just like most comic super-villains. I don´t want each WW run to feel like a completely seperate thing from the one before. If they are to build her as a character and build her Rogues gallery, I think they need to take these new additions, and get other writers to do their own spin on them. Thats how supervillains improve and become great like The Joker or Lex Luthor.

I had completely forgot that Ares had died in Gail's WW

about the motivations that you are mentioning, like i said, greed and revenge, is just that Gail doesnt even bother to even hint the smallest effort of characterization on those villains, Silva in Skyfall, his motivation was revenge but it was so well developed that its what makes it something else completelt, If the Crows wanted revenge then they are easily detracted by being spanked in the butt, not so good in the motivation department, the only exception is alkyone who had a more complex background but is still not much to go call home about it

my point is, I really wont be surprised if this concepts of villains are never re-utilized again and for a very good reason, I can count with my hand the number of villains that have been well done and have been created by Gail and none of them leave a great mark in any comic book.

can they be improve?

Of course!, but that isnt the point, they werent used well in the first place.

just look at what Azzarello did with Ares, Is an amazing character, I dont see the slightest inspiration from anything that Gail did with him

there is no use on build her a Rogue Gallery if those villains SUCK!

#36 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad: clearly we have different taste, i just saw skyfall, thought it was more generic macho crap. Didn´t like the villain and i don´t see how he is that interesting in comparison to the history of cinematic villains. so all i can say to your point is, ok. you don´t like gail simone - i do. you like azzerrellos ww - i don´t. i think the man is a genius but his ww sucks, he doesn´t get her. tell me more about the series you were recommending it sounded intriguing.

#37 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

@arnoldoaad: clearly we have different taste, i just saw skyfall, thought it was more generic macho crap. Didn´t like the villain and i don´t see how he is that interesting in comparison to the history of cinematic villains. so all i can say to your point is, ok. you don´t like gail simone - i do. you like azzerrellos ww - i don´t. i think the man is a genius but his ww sucks, he doesn´t get her. tell me more about the series you were recommending it sounded intriguing.

It is not that i dont like Gail, I just think she heavily overrated, her S6 was great, but other than that most of her work is very mediocre, her batgirl is by far the worst written title in the entire new 52, and Firestorm was just absolutely dreadful, the villains were terrorist that would make Frank Miller blush on how generic they were.

as for Skyfall i dont see how could it possibly be generic compared to Gail Simone, Queen of generic writing, and Javier Barden is just the best part of that entire movie, the ending just shows the huge complexity of the entire character and btw this was really the first bond movie to develop M.

about Azzarello, his WW is flawed but i think what makes it work is the entire mythos that he is using for him, The reinvention of The Greek Gods is just fantastic, almost pulled from Sandman

as for Glory, is about this character who is birthed by the union of 2 alien races that are at war, one which is basically Amazons and the other are demons,and she is raised her mom to be a symbol of peace, then after 500 years of training she comes to earth to fight in WWII and be a superhero and then she disappears

the story starts with a young girl who dreams about Glory and starts looking for her until she finds her and discovers that she was almost killed.

I think the first chp of Glory #23 is free on comixology or at least cheap

and if you want more info check this video but there are some spoilers

But personally i think the best part of Glory is the art, which is just fantastic.

#38 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad: Thats sounds really cool, a lot like Wonder Woman, I´m gonna check it out and let you know what I think.

Have you seen Dredd yet, I have to say I enjoyed that a lot more than Bond. I liked his sidekick in that a lot, what a great female character. Actually not that I want to debate this that much anymore. But what did you think of the villain in that film. I think she´s quite good, although almost purely one dimensional. all she is a collection of sinister lines. But I still thought she was very affective for the film. Also I really like Javier Bardem, my problem wasn´t him, I just think the action genre rehashes alot of things. I tired of the bond style archetype, good looking, badass with style, always has a clever retort, always gets the girl. Its formulaic. The bad guy in the Bond film, yeah he might have had quite a complex motive, but it didn´t make me relate to him anymore, and he was so obviously trying to be cool, it was like he was pronouncing look at me, look how iconic I am. It was just a bit lame for me. But I can see how others would enjoy it.

I mean my favorite villains of all time in film (so you get an idea of my taste)

Brando - A Street Car Named Desire

12 Angry Men - Lee J Coeb´s character.

The Comedian - Watchmen

Tommy from Goodfellas

And that kind of thing, so I don´t think I have bad taste, I just think we differ on our opinion of Simone´s run and its worth.

#39 Posted by Goddessa (200 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz: Yes Challenge of the Gods was EPIC!

#40 Posted by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

Genocide is just as generic as you can possibly look for, she is a Doomsday-villain, which is actually a trope and is exactly the textbook definition of it. its not a character just a thing.

That's why I liked it, the threat level was on par with Doomsday and I felt that there was an intimacy in her design, being the body of a dead Wonder Woman that was intense and epic.

#41 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@Press Oblivion: Man you do not want to get into this one, trust me ;)

#42 Posted by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

as for Glory, is about this character who is birthed by the union of 2 alien races that are at war, one which is basically Amazons and the other are demons,and she is raised her mom to be a symbol of peace, then after 500 years of training she comes to earth to fight in WWII and be a superhero and then she disappears

the story starts with a young girl who dreams about Glory and starts looking for her until she finds her and discovers that she was almost killed.


But personally i think the best part of Glory is the art, which is just fantastic.

Agreed! The work of Joe Keatinge and Ross Campbell on this title was just great. Unfortunately it will be cancelled with issue 34.

#43 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

@arnoldoaad: Thats sounds really cool, a lot like Wonder Woman, I´m gonna check it out and let you know what I think.

Have you seen Dredd yet, I have to say I enjoyed that a lot more than Bond. I liked his sidekick in that a lot, what a great female character. Actually not that I want to debate this that much anymore. But what did you think of the villain in that film. I think she´s quite good, although almost purely one dimensional. all she is a collection of sinister lines. But I still thought she was very affective for the film. Also I really like Javier Bardem, my problem wasn´t him, I just think the action genre rehashes alot of things. I tired of the bond style archetype, good looking, badass with style, always has a clever retort, always gets the girl. Its formulaic. The bad guy in the Bond film, yeah he might have had quite a complex motive, but it didn´t make me relate to him anymore, and he was so obviously trying to be cool, it was like he was pronouncing look at me, look how iconic I am. It was just a bit lame for me. But I can see how others would enjoy it.

first of all Skyfall is way outside the formula that you are putting there, just to mention one, the girl dies.

Barden's character DOESNT have a complex motive, it is very simple, he wants revenge against M, the Complexity comes on how is the character written to get to that point, because with the power that he has he could just had killed M at any moment in the first half of the movie, but he doesnt do that, he wants a more complex revenge, he wants to look into her eyes as he takes away all that she cares about and to certain degree he also wants understanding from her cause for him is a mother figure.

its a Count of Montecristo type of character, the scene of him in Jail is just a fantastic character written moment

as for Dredd yeah I saw it, If you think Ma-Ma was one dimensional then I honestly really doubt you saw the same movie, if you want a one dimensional villain look at Stallone's Dredd movie

I see her as a character who just wants more, she starts as this prostitute who castrates her own pimp after she is scared and then takes control of his gang which in turn starts controlling each and every one of the levels of the mega-structure, its simple, but is effective and i can bet that there was much more about that character that was edited out.

see, the point that im trying to make here is that a good villain doesnt need a complex motivation, but it always needs one and its how that motivation is written that makes the villain efective or not

Genocide had absolutely no motivation, a lot of villains from Simone had no motivation, or just a basic one, but she doesnt explore it, or is something so asinine that makes absolutely no sense, like The Mirror on Batgirl, I have absolutely no idea why that guy kills people and doesnt commit suicide, it literally hurts to think to much about

I mean my favorite villains of all time in film (so you get an idea of my taste)

Brando - A Street Car Named Desire

12 Angry Men - Lee J Coeb´s character.

The Comedian - Watchmen

Tommy from Goodfellas

I didnt see the first 2, the comedian wasnt the villain of Watchmen, It was Ozymantias, and Tommy, cant remember which one was Tommy

@Press Oblivion said:

@arnoldoaad said:

Genocide is just as generic as you can possibly look for, she is a Doomsday-villain, which is actually a trope and is exactly the textbook definition of it. its not a character just a thing.

That's why I liked it, the threat level was on par with Doomsday and I felt that there was an intimacy in her design, being the body of a dead Wonder Woman that was intense and epic.

so you liked it cause is as generic as you can get?

thread level is just what is done with the character not what the character is, and is not even that high

Did Genocide even killed anyone important?

#44 Edited by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad said:

@jphulk26 said:

first of all Skyfall is way outside the formula that you are putting there, just to mention one, the girl dies.

That does not on the slightest make it not cleashay or formulaic. The girl dies. Really?

Barden's character DOESNT have a complex motive, it is very simple, he wants revenge against M, the Complexity comes on how is the character written to get to that point, because with the power that he has he could just had killed M at any moment in the first half of the movie, but he doesnt do that, he wants a more complex revenge, he wants to look into her eyes as he takes away all that she cares about and to certain degree he also wants understanding from her cause for him is a mother figure.

Whatever it was his motive literally put me to sleep, several times, I had to go back and watch it again and it became no more interesting.

as for Dredd yeah I saw it, If you think Ma-Ma was one dimensional then I honestly really doubt you saw the same movie, if you want a one dimensional villain look at Stallone's Dredd movie

I see her as a character who just wants more, she starts as this prostitute who castrates her own pimp after she is scared and then takes control of his gang which in turn starts controlling each and every one of the levels of the mega-structure, its simple, but is effective and i can bet that there was much more about that character that was edited out.

I must have slipped out during that point, I plan to get again on DVD but she was great. But the fact I missed that explaination of her character, but still thought she was great, goes to show it wasn´t really even needed. I found her just as frightening being one-dimensional and mysterious.

see, the point that im trying to make here is that a good villain doesnt need a complex motivation, but it always needs one and its how that motivation is written that makes the villain efective or not

Genocide had absolutely no motivation, a lot of villains from Simone had no motivation, or just a basic one, but she doesnt explore it, or is something so asinine that makes absolutely no sense, like The Mirror on Batgirl, I have absolutely no idea why that guy kills people and doesnt commit suicide, it literally hurts to think to much about

Seriously are we back on this again? A good villain doesn´t always need to be explained or have a motive, its simply not true. Maybe they need a history, but it is not essential to have a motive. Example police man in Leon, no motive whatsoever, he´s just an asshole.

It sounds to me like Mama doesn´t have a motive, just a traumatic upbringing.

Also Genocide was the foot soldier of characters who did have a motive, she wasn´t the main architect behind the dastardly plan. She was just the physical expression of the plan to undo WW. Just cause she was part of a long arch, doesn´t mean she was the main character behind everything. She was clearly a tool, a mere weapon.

Plus If Alkyone motivation wasn´t good enough or psychologically satisying enough for you, how is a former prostitute just wanting power and getting it somehow more of an interesting motive?

I think maybe you just don´t like Simone. I really do. Because as far as I can see most of the villians had a motive in that WW run. Genocide was a mere thing, a weapon designed by many of WW´s main villains and given life. A mere Frankenstein so clearly Genocide didn´t need a really solid motive. Most henchmen or soldiers of the main badguy in movies don´t have clear motives. They are mere extensions of the more dominant villains will.

@arnoldoaad: @Press Oblivion:

#45 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

Seriously are we back on this again? A good villain doesn´t always need to be explained or have a motive, its simply not true. Maybe they need a history, but it is not essential to have a motive. Example police man in Leon, no motive whatsoever, he´s just an asshole.

I dont know who is police man in leon

Also Genocide was the foot soldier of characters who did have a motive, she wasn´t the main architect behind the dastardly plan. She was just the physical expression of the plan to undo WW. Just cause she was part of a long arch, doesn´t mean she was the main character behind everything. She was clearly a tool, a mere weapon.

if she is all of those things which i agree on then what is left of her to be interesting to be part of WW Rogue gallery and even be consider to be reused again

Plus If Alkyone motivation wasn´t good enough or psychologically satisying enough for you, how is a former prostitute just wanting power and getting it somehow more of an interesting motive?

I thought her motivation was good, just not well executed , Ma-ma was way more interesting despite being more cimple

I think maybe you just don´t like Simone. I really do.

nah, thats not the point at all, stop making it as such

Because as far as I can see most of the villians had a motive in that WW run. Genocide was a mere thing, a weapon designed by many of WW´s main villains and given life. A mere Frankenstein so clearly Genocide didn´t need a really solid motive. Most henchmen or soldiers of the main badguy in movies don´t have clear motives. They are mere extensions of the more dominant villains will.

again, having a motive is necessary but is not enough, the execution of the motive is important

for example, what was the motive of Cheetah to unleash Genocide, Is it even explain?

you havent mention her once in this entire conversation of Gail's run, kind of points out how is that the thing with no motivation that only break stuff is more interesting than her

or how about T.O. Morrow's motivation to create it and then completely puss out because "he is jewish"

see, I actually found that scene very funny, and is not suppose to be

#46 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

again, having a motive is necessary but is not enough, the execution of the motive is important

for example, what was the motive of Cheetah to unleash Genocide, Is it even explain?

you havent mention her once in this entire conversation of Gail's run, kind of points out how is that the thing with no motivation that only break stuff is more interesting than her

or how about T.O. Morrow's motivation to create it and then completely puss out because "he is jewish"

see, I actually found that scene very funny, and is not suppose to be.

Mainly cause I´ve only read it once. It wasn´t the episode I was most impressed with and therefore the details of it elude me. The Simone stories I come back to is The Circle, and also the closing chapters, which I like. I think she lost her way in some of the middle parts. But I think if the beginning and end of that series were seen as just stand alone graphic novels they´re pretty cool. There was one more bit I really liked, which I forget now, but I think her and Ruckas run would make for a cool animated series if they made some changes to Gail run midway. Did you know she wrote the animated film?

#47 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

Mainly cause I´ve only read it once. It wasn´t the episode I was most impressed with and therefore the details of it elude me. The Simone stories I come back to is The Circle, and also the closing chapters, which I like. I think she lost her way in some of the middle parts. But I think if the beginning and end of that series were seen as just stand alone graphic novels they´re pretty cool. There was one more bit I really liked, which I forget now, but I think her and Ruckas run would make for a cool animated series if they made some changes to Gail run midway. Did you know she wrote the animated film?

I think the best issues of Simone's WW was the stand alone, like the one with the movie plot, or the final story arc vs aliens, but i dont think it could be used into a TV series, maybe the movie one can, it was a pretty satisfying stand alone story

as for the first and end of her run being worthy of a graphic novel, NAH, I said it before but my favorite WW story is Hiketeia by Rucka, thats a graphic novel, those stories arent selfcontain enough to work at all as one, you would need to explain why is the circle the only 4 amazons left in the world

and she co-wrote WW animated movie which was ok

see, the amazon that betrays everyone, she has a very good motivation and very well develop.

#48 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@arnoldoaad: sorry there´s something I don´t get. what do you mean the Amazon´s were the last four Amazons left on Earth?

I don´t understand what you mean.

Yeah Hiketeia was pretty cool. ;)

#49 Posted by arnoldoaad (1007 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

@arnoldoaad: sorry there´s something I don´t get. what do you mean the Amazon´s were the last four Amazons left on Earth?

I don´t understand what you mean.

Yeah Hiketeia was pretty cool. ;)

i mean because of being post-AA

I know that there was still Hippolyta and WW and the other Amazons that were hiding, but the circle was pretty much the last 4, but it just wouldnt work as a graphic novel because is not very self contain

by that i mean, it doesnt really end there

Hiketeia has its own begining, middle and end, the Circle doesnt really have a satisfactory ending cause the characters keep going on

#50 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

I still don´t quite know what you mean. Are you trying to say cause the other Amazons were in hiding. Cause they weren´t. Alkyone had just set up a police state; there was never a point when they were the only four. Or did Alkyone appear somewhere else I don´t know about?

I see what you are saying about the Graphic Novel, but what I´m saying is that´s how I like to see Gails run, not perfect but with some high points, and good concepts. But lets not get into this again.

By the way did you say you don´t see The Comedian as a villain? He certainly could be considered an Anti-hero, but clearly also a villain. His acts were by and large dispicable. I understand it´s a whole deconstruction of the genre, but to me it is true that The Comedian wasn´t the villain of that particular story, but he was a villian.

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