Not a friend at all

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Posted by RazzaTazz (9698 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a mini rant so be prepared.  I can say that after having read issue #14 of Justice League that I do not at all get where the writers are taking the romance between Wonder Woman and the other guy.  I suppose that seeing as almost nothing in their entire publication history has ever indicated that they might be romantically compatible with one another, that there needs to be at least something to make these two want to be together.  The justification of "feeling isolated because of their powers" doesn't quite fit though.  I think I can say that probably everyone in their entire lives has felt isolated in some way, but seeing another person similarly isolated doesn't make us want to start kissing them.  So that is the first part of the rant out of the way, because that underlies everything else.  The problem after that in this issue (spoilers) is that Superman takes Wonder Woman on what amounts to their first date where he shows her around Smallville and the reasons for his superheroics.  This ends up being the usual Americana concept which underlines Superman - fighting for the Red, White and Blue and for the everyman.  How does this relate to Diana?  Well it doesn't really.  Her mission is actually above and beyond that as she aims to represent all of humanity and to do it in as peaceful a way as possible.  I am obviously not a fan of this romance, but at least the writers could have found a better way to justify it than to destroy the essence of who Diana is as a person.  This is after all seven years after she has become a hero and she only feels isolated now?  What I feared would happen is happening, as Diana has essentially become a supporting character for Superman.  The below panel is the most telling for me, throughout the character's publication history the two have been portrayed as good and loyal friends, but only friends.  Wonder Woman is talking about the Cheetah here, but it could jut as easily be about Superman.

#1 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz:

I do share your fear that Wonder Woman might become a supporting character to Superman, but at this time I think its a bit unfounded, it's just irrational fan fear(on my side, I don't claim to know what you're thinking).

That being said, I don't think the date was so much to make Diana and Kal relate to each other so much as it was for Kal to open up to someone and be vulnerable, like when he was talking about his dead parents (Which even then I don't think it was handled particularly well but it could've been worse).

I think it was a nice first date, but not a special one.

#2 Posted by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

I am a fan of the romance but I think that the character & romance development is atrocious here. There was almost no lead in to this happening, no building of the realtionship.

They should have saved the kiss for after all of this heart to heart stuff was out in the open like the trip to Smallville, showing that they could unite on a greater commonality than loneliness, like their missions, their beliefs, their fears.

I have to agree with @TheCrowbar: that it's too early to lay claim to Wonder Woman having a diminished roll though.

#3 Posted by RazzaTazz (9698 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheCrowbar
@Press Oblivion: This is similar to the thing that happened in Odyssey where Wonder Woman was trying to figure out how to be a hero again at the same time as Superman.  She sees him be a hero and gets her motivation once again.  The two are really not the same kind of hero at all though.  For him to be motivated by him or vice versa does not speak to each of their 60+ years of publication history of who they are.  
#4 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

DC tends not to be as good in doing realistic super hero romances as Marvel. DC is more into the unbelievable fantastical feats by super heroes.

#5 Posted by RazzaTazz (9698 posts) - - Show Bio
@colonyofcells: I had never thought of it that way, but there is a lot of truth in that.  The heroes at DC have a harder time in romance as they are more powerful.
#6 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz: While they're not similar, I don't think citing Wonder Woman's 60 year publication history as a reason against them being together. You know better than I, a good portion of Wonder Woman's publication history was spent with her getting "wrapped" up.

#7 Posted by RazzaTazz (9698 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheCrowbar: The bondage stuff was not actually that common, and is really a truism about the character.  I have read all the Marston stuff and there were not really any examples of being in a bondage situation beyond what most heroes go through.  After Marston it was far less.   
 
I actually blogged on this last year if you are interested -  Tijuana Diana
#8 Edited by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz said:

This is similar to the thing that happened in Odyssey where Wonder Woman was trying to figure out how to be a hero again at the same time as Superman. She sees him be a hero and gets her motivation once again. The two are really not the same kind of hero at all though. For him to be motivated by him or vice versa does not speak to each of their 60+ years of publication history of who they are.

60 years + has been left in the back issue bins though. That said, they barely even spoke to each other in the comic let alone 60+ years of publication.

I'm just saying that people date before they kiss. This isn't a casual hook-up night club where you make physical contact and ask questions should the notion strike you. Where's the build up?

Yeah, Wonder Woman should be several years deep into her career, her portrayal in her solo title is the one that I want to see always, confident, in control and sophisticated, independent, a relationship being the last thing on her mind. If Superman was interested I would have liked to see him pursue her, breaking down her defenses (because she doesn't need a man) and show her that he's something more than an upstanding citizen with incredible abilities.

Where's the wooing, the flowers, the admission that they want to be with each other? That moment before the first kiss of hesitation and longing where they look into one another's eyes and know instinctively that they want the same thing?

#9 Posted by RazzaTazz (9698 posts) - - Show Bio
@Press Oblivion: That is where a lot of my hesitation lies.  There is no real reason for them to be together other than them being together.  
#10 Posted by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

So you don't see them together on any grounds? Not even just something as debase as common attraction?

#12 Posted by RazzaTazz (9698 posts) - - Show Bio
@Press Oblivion: Not really, not at all.  It just isn't there.  
#13 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: I disagree.

Treating these characters as people, I see this more as him sharing something about himself first so that she knows its safe to do the same. Not so much about making Superman more relatable or liked by readers.

#14 Posted by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

I've been wanting this for decades.

I see them commiserating on Hope for Humanity and the Sorrow that despite all their efforts and powers that they cannot be there to save everything all the time, and in the same vein, wanting beyond desperation to do more. At the end of the day you play the lonely card because no one could possibly relate to their burden but other Superheroes and even less at their power level so they can find understanding in one another.

But that's just me. LOL

#15 Posted by RazzaTazz (9698 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheCrowbar: I don't see how that relates him to Diana.  If the entire point of the relationship is that they have some kind of better understanding of one another because of their power imposed loneliness, then he is clearly not as lonely in the same way that Diana is, nor are his motivations the same.  So it works like - Diana can feel lonely enough to kiss him, but then not lonely for the same reasons that got her there (what happened with Trevor) to realize it is the exact same situation.   
#16 Posted by RazzaTazz (9698 posts) - - Show Bio
@Press Oblivion: I don't see the understanding of loneliness for someone who is still for all we know blessed with divine wisdom.  On that note divine wisdom would probably tell her not to get involved in a teammate that she goes into battle with.  
#17 Posted by The Stegman (25541 posts) - - Show Bio

I doubt that they will be together, seems like a one time thing to me, and frankly an interesting way to take the two characters.

#18 Posted by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz: Yes, office relationships can be tricky. I hope that you can see them as Superfriends at least :D . . . . pun intended ;)

On the point of Devine Wisdom . . . obviously not. Her characterization in Justice League is proof of that. Damn shame too.

#19 Edited by RazzaTazz (9698 posts) - - Show Bio
@Press Oblivion: It would be nice to see the divine wisdom power used for more than a list of things she can do but doesn't
#20 Posted by Deranged Midget (17856 posts) - - Show Bio

Ah, I see another person isn't exactly thrilled with this romance. I already spoke my thoughts regarding their "relationship" in a blog a while back and I personally was not impressed. It just seems too lazy and far too forced if you ask me. There is nothing there that makes this feel genuine or natural. For the entirety of the New 52, Diana had not known Kal's secret identity. She always referred to him only as Superman and only recently learned of his human identity. And we're expected to believe that just because Kal provides a comforting voice and that the both of them are arguably two of the most powerful beings on the planet, it makes it more believable?

Their first kiss was absolutely uncalled for. If DC truly wants to make this as important as they claim it to be. Show some build up between Kal and Diana, show the chemistry, any sort of attraction because I fail to see any. All we've seen thus far is Clark stating that "she's strong" and the occasional stare. Putting it bluntly, it seems like DC pulled this out just to sell some comics and in turn -- it did.

Moderator
#21 Posted by RazzaTazz (9698 posts) - - Show Bio
@Deranged Midget: I think it can't last beyond next summer when Lois and Clark are going to be big news again thanks to the movie.  
#22 Posted by Deranged Midget (17856 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz: It might seem that way yes, but what's even more interesting is that most of the current Superman writers (or soon to be) such as Andy Diggle, Lobdell and Snyder all prefer Lois over Diana. They all talked about how Lois will still play an important part in Clark's life and right now, it seems that Johns is the only one trying to sell the relationship.

Moderator
#23 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz: It's not meant to show their similarities, at least not in an obvious sense. It's meant to show Superman just sharing a part of himself with her, a first step in deepening their relationship.

And actually, I did read it as him being just as alone as Wonder Woman. The house he brought her to, wasn't his home, it used to be his home. The people he wants to protect, they revere him as a god and almost all knowing but they're still good people.

#24 Posted by RazzaTazz (9698 posts) - - Show Bio
@Deranged Midget: I like most of what Johns does elsewhere, but this looks like him becoming the new John Byrne, with a bizarre fixation on the two characters being together.  
#25 Posted by GunGunW (1006 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Superman and Wonder Woman should be bestest friends and just that. No more, no less.

#26 Posted by RazzaTazz (9698 posts) - - Show Bio
@TheCrowbar: It just doesn't work for me.  The loneliness is not enough to build a relationship on, a friendship could work from that, but I don't see any viable romance blossoming from such a case.  It is different kinds of alone though, Superman might be like a god, but he also has a lot of human friends, Diana not so much, and she is regarded as something more of an emissary of peace than a god.  
#27 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz: He has a lot of worshippers, Batman is probably his only friend.

I completely agree, loneliness isn't enough to build a romantic relationship on. The now infamous kiss, was just that a kiss during a vulnerable time. Superman and Wonder Woman(I assume) want more than that, but to have more they need time to build and understand each other on a deeper level.

You're not in a romantic relationship with someone after the first date, and this is what that was, a first date.

#28 Posted by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

@GunGunW said:

I think Superman and Wonder Woman should be bestest friends and just that. No more, no less.

Supefriends . . . . people. . . . c'mon it's funny,

@Deranged Midget said:

Their first kiss was absolutely uncalled for. If DC truly wants to make this as important as they claim it to be. Show some build up between Kal and Diana, show the chemistry, any sort of attraction because I fail to see any. All we've seen thus far is Clark stating that "she's strong" and the occasional stare. Putting it bluntly, it seems like DC pulled this out just to sell some comics and in turn -- it did.

You guys are really killin' it for me but I have to agree with this statement.

#29 Posted by TimeLordScience (1304 posts) - - Show Bio

Johns's Justice League has been pretty crumby IMO. And this romance probably isn't going past that book. So just don't read Justice League, and you don't have to worry about it. Wonder Woman proper is great anyway.

#30 Posted by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

I have to agree the Superman Wonder Woman romance is just the usual sales gimmick which won't last long.

#32 Posted by TheCrowbar (4286 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis:

Fair enough.

In interest of full disclosure, I'm not currently reading WW solo series so I'm basing my judgement on her in JL.

#34 Posted by krspaceT (1508 posts) - - Show Bio

It s quite possible that the idea will grow over time. They seem to be trying to establish the foundation for it first, give them that

#35 Posted by Delphic (1528 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@TheCrowbar said:

@lykopis: I disagree.

Treating these characters as people, I see this more as him sharing something about himself first so that she knows its safe to do the same. Not so much about making Superman more relatable or liked by readers.

Why would she need to feel "safe"? This is Wonder Woman, post52. She has been doing great under Azzarello's pen in relating to people emotionally and otherwise. We'll have to disagree to disagree. To me, this is to give Superman a push of some sort -- their relationship comes across completely unbelievable. Its jarring. Its nonsensical. It's...well. Ridiculous, frankly.

It's funny that you mention that this "relationship" is to give Superman a "push". Now I'm not exactly a big fan of this relationship either. I guess I can sum it up as "cute", but even that is stretching the "WonderSupes" thing. I digress though, My point is why does Superman need a "push", and secondly why is it that Superman suddenly must have a significant other to better define him. When you think about Superman needs a woman, about as much as Wonder Woman needs a man.

#36 Posted by fodigg (6148 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree. It seems like they're trying to jump past the justification of the romance and get to the supporting each other parts. And, well, it's not like that's bad or unrealistic--lots of relationships don't need much more justification than "they're hot and I'm interested"--but come on, it's not entertaining to just skip over the development of the romance. That's the fun of a romance subplot. Also, where is Steve Trevor? Is WW the central character of this love triangle or is she just a prize to be won? I dunno.

#37 Edited by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

It was established that Trevor & Diana had something for a fleeting moment and she broke it off. We don't know what the was exactly.

@TimeLordScience said:

And this romance probably isn't going past that book.

I never thought of that. I think you're right about this.

#38 Posted by 4_color_image (220 posts) - - Show Bio

@Press Oblivion said:

...I think that the character & romance development is atrocious here. There was almost no lead in to this happening, no building of the realtionship.

This can be said about the entire Justice League run so far. They are rushing one story to get to the next. I love Diana's new look but except for a few gems (Batwoman, Animal Man, Swamp Thing) I find the DCnU to be a dumbed down version of the previous universe.

#39 Edited by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

@4_color_image: Certainly not as good as his JSA stuff back in the day.

It's really surprising to see this style of jerky story telling from Johns, i find his work to be more fluid than this. He shown time and again that he knows how to build on the important elements of characterization and reason that give you a complete experience. I don't know how he can have Wonder Woman so far removed from her portrayal in her own title.

Superman #13: Clark is pining over Lois

This isn't going to last long at all.

I hope you haters of Super Wonder Love are happy !@Press Oblivion <---stomps off to sulk in a corner.

#40 Posted by TimeLordScience (1304 posts) - - Show Bio

@Press Oblivion said:

It was established that Trevor & Diana had something for a fleeting moment and she broke it off. We don't know what the was exactly.

@TimeLordScience said:

And this romance probably isn't going past that book.

I never thought of that. I think you're right about this.

Azzarello already stated Superman isn't going to appear in the WW solo book, so to me that's a good sign.

#41 Posted by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

Your good is my bad . . . . . Se La Vi. I'll take it any way I can get it even if it's as bad and potentially short lived as this.

#42 Edited by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@Delphic said:

@lykopis said:

@TheCrowbar said:

@lykopis: I disagree.

Treating these characters as people, I see this more as him sharing something about himself first so that she knows its safe to do the same. Not so much about making Superman more relatable or liked by readers.

Why would she need to feel "safe"? This is Wonder Woman, post52. She has been doing great under Azzarello's pen in relating to people emotionally and otherwise. We'll have to disagree to disagree. To me, this is to give Superman a push of some sort -- their relationship comes across completely unbelievable. Its jarring. Its nonsensical. It's...well. Ridiculous, frankly.

It's funny that you mention that this "relationship" is to give Superman a "push". Now I'm not exactly a big fan of this relationship either. I guess I can sum it up as "cute", but even that is stretching the "WonderSupes" thing. I digress though, My point is why does Superman need a "push", and secondly why is it that Superman suddenly must have a significant other to better define him. When you think about Superman needs a woman, about as much as Wonder Woman needs a man.

That's just it. I feel its more of a disservice for Wonder Woman but yes, it can be argued that Superman is being hurled at Wonder Woman as well. Is this to present Clark as some man about town? Or Diana as a woman with a "need" to be understood?

Agreed. Neither needs a significant other to define the other. Certainly not at superhero levels like theirs.

#43 Edited by jrock85 (2874 posts) - - Show Bio

As others have touched upon, the worst thing about this hookup is that it contradicts everything that Azzarello has established about Diana's personality. In her solo title she's demonstrated far greater emotional maturity, she's anything but lonely, she's not trying to keep her loved ones at a distance to "keep them safe," and above all else she has no difficulty relating to or bonding with humans. The point is, she does not uniquely require companionship from someone like Superman.

Looking at the latest sales figures, it doesn't appear that this romance has generated more interest in JL.

@Deranged Midget: When did Snyder mention Lois? O_o

#44 Posted by budromook (9 posts) - - Show Bio

I also find SM/WW romance not interesting, I fear that it will turn Wonder Woman into Superman's girlfriend. I also wonder how the others writers fell about this if Azzarello not putting the power couple in his run and Andy Diggle using Wonder Woman for a love triangle to develop Clark & Lois more. Beside the people who made this decision (Most likely Dan DiDio, Jim Lee, and Geoff Johns) who truly cares about writing SM/WW romance.

#45 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

Gah the Superman/Wonder Woman romance strikes again. I haven't read JL 14 but if it's as bad as it sounds, I'm glad I'm dropping it after this issue. Their relationship is lackluster, the kiss was forced and their justification for being together sounds very poor. Glad that some people see that Superman and WW do not make a good couple.

#46 Posted by Deranged Midget (17856 posts) - - Show Bio

@jrock85: In an interview with G-Man himself when discussing his "Man of Steel" title with Jim Lee that is to be released next year.

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#47 Edited by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

I just finished reading Justice League 14 and I don't really see what all of the bemoaning is about . . . Superman wasn't teaching her the virtues, justifications, or reasons of being a hero, she was in a moment of crisis and he was sharing himself with her. When he feels as Diana does this is what he needs to remind him that there is purpose.

What was bad about this was that Superman & Wonder Woman were sitting in the diner that he frequents often in his hometown and no one recognized him. Is everyone's powers of perception as bad as Lois's?

#48 Posted by dondasch (926 posts) - - Show Bio

The relationship is entirely forced, and is nothing more than using Diana as a companion for Superman. She has been relegated to the type of relationship one might find in high school, that being, the captain of the football team dating the most attractive girl in school.

#49 Posted by SUNMAN (7265 posts) - - Show Bio

@RazzaTazz said:

This is a mini rant so be prepared. I can say that after having read issue #14 of Justice League that I do not at all get where the writers are taking the romance between Wonder Woman and the other guy. I suppose that seeing as almost nothing in their entire publication history has ever indicated that they might be romantically compatible with one another, that there needs to be at least something to make these two want to be together. The justification of "feeling isolated because of their powers" doesn't quite fit though. I think I can say that probably everyone in their entire lives has felt isolated in some way, but seeing another person similarly isolated doesn't make us want to start kissing them. So that is the first part of the rant out of the way, because that underlies everything else. The problem after that in this issue (spoilers) is that Superman takes Wonder Woman on what amounts to their first date where he shows her around Smallville and the reasons for his superheroics. This ends up being the usual Americana concept which underlines Superman - fighting for the Red, White and Blue and for the everyman. How does this relate to Diana? Well it doesn't really. Her mission is actually above and beyond that as she aims to represent all of humanity and to do it in as peaceful a way as possible. I am obviously not a fan of this romance, but at least the writers could have found a better way to justify it than to destroy the essence of who Diana is as a person. This is after all seven years after she has become a hero and she only feels isolated now? What I feared would happen is happening, as Diana has essentially become a supporting character for Superman. The below panel is the most telling for me, throughout the character's publication history the two have been portrayed as good and loyal friends, but only friends. Wonder Woman is talking about the Cheetah here, but it could jut as easily be about Superman.

This is actually a common trope that's been used for years in story telling. I can't say I understand it personally but its certainly been used ad nauseam. Falls in the whole bonding/attraction over liked experiences as you mentioned.

As far as what WW represents I agree with you. Still looking back on her inception she was also intended to be a patriotic symbol. The red white and blue, the eagle symbol, the stars. Heck anyone else remember fox news complaining 2 years ago about the new costume and how it was less patriotic and more utilitarian. I still agree with you about her overall mission in terms of the DC universe, but I still find it ironic since she still embodies those patriotic symbols. Same goes for Superman to an extent. More than any other hero (yes even more than Captain America) Supes has been a symbol of patriotism and the American way, but over the last few years DC seems to want him to be more of a global icon. Wasn't there a Superman issue over a year ago where he renounced his US citizenship or something?

I think Johns is either just using this drama as a way to bring Supes and WW closer or simply breaking WW down to build her back up, which we see with a lot of other superheroes.

#50 Posted by RazzaTazz (9698 posts) - - Show Bio
@SUNMAN: Yes he renounced it right before the new 52

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