Poll Magic/myth or Superheroics/scifi (30 votes)
The former
Character » Wonder Woman appears in 8717 issues.
The former
Superheroics/Scifi is going to lose, but I picked it because it's also part of Wonder Woman and a facet we don't see enough.
Superheroics/Scifi is going to lose, but I picked it because it's also part of Wonder Woman and a facet we don't see enough.
Personally I just feel like there are already so many Superheroics/Scifi focused comics out there that it gets generic after a while ... I like when they pepper some of that into WW, but she's not as well differentiated in the comic world without the Magic/Myth elements. She has a distinct role when the Gods and such get involved that makes her more well suited to fight them than SM or BM or GL or Flash or SG/PG. It's one of the things that post-GA brought to her that I feel was very positive.
In the GA she was one of a very few superheros and had some specific stories that were relevant only to her (even when not looking at the obvious female pieces) ... her WWII Nazi/Japanese Empire fighting storylines were much more prominent than SM or BM or CM so she had a niche, but by the time COIE rolled around she was all over the place. Perez firmly planted her into the mythological world by eliminating the parts of her origin that were not myth-based and in doing so he gave her a more clear purpose in the marketplace. Aliens = SM, Psychopaths = BM, Mythology = WW
One of the reasons I like the N52 version is that Azzarello has given her such a clear place in her solo series ... and she gets her more "standard" superhero stuff in JL and SM/WW, which is fine with me. I think Finch will take her in a different direction based on what I've read from them, but I hope they keep her entrenched in the mythological world as much as possible.
@rustyroy: Ohhhh.
Can we get some context here?
I think he's asking about what types of stories about Wonder Woman you prefer.
I thought it was more specific to the origin. If it's just in general then I'd be fine with about half of her villains being more scifi based, and the Amazons coming up with more advanced tech, or maybe specialize in mixing magic and tech.
Can we get some context here?
I think he's asking about what types of stories about Wonder Woman you prefer.
I thought it was more specific to the origin. If it's just in general then I'd be fine with about half of her villains being more scifi based, and the Amazons coming up with more advanced tech, or maybe specialize in mixing magic and tech.
I don't want Amazons to be tech based, I don't even want them to use magic, I don't want to see them with swords that shoot lasers or glow like lightsabers that can cut anything in half, I want them to be more like Spartans from the 300 movie, very skilled warriors with just above peak human strength that can take on more powerful foes than themselves using just steel swords and shields. And I want to see Wonder Woman fight Mythical monsters like Dragons, Minotaurs, Hydra etc.
Can we get some context here?
I think he's asking about what types of stories about Wonder Woman you prefer.
I thought it was more specific to the origin. If it's just in general then I'd be fine with about half of her villains being more scifi based, and the Amazons coming up with more advanced tech, or maybe specialize in mixing magic and tech.
I don't want Amazons to be tech based, I don't even want them to use magic, I don't want to see them with swords that shoot lasers or glow like lightsabers that can cut anything in half, I want them to be more like Spartans from the 300 movie, very skilled warriors with just above peak human strength that can take on more powerful foes than themselves using just steel swords and shields. And I want to see Wonder Woman fight Mythical monsters like Dragons, Minotaurs, Hydra etc.
Where have you been? That's ALL we've gotten for years. I love mythology but I'm sick of it. How many hydra, chimeras, minotaurs, centaurs or different versions of Medusa is she going to have to fight? They seem endless. They're are literally dozens of scenes I could post of Wonder Woman fighting monsters, it's tired.
This is the woman of science that invented the Purple Ray.
She regularly fought alien space invaders, men from mars, women from Saturn and genuine super-villains like the Royal Flush Gang.
There was a time when Paradise Island had space ships, we need some of that left in the title. It's as much a part of Wonder Woman's heritage as mythology. Without it we get stuck in a rut.
A few years ago WW fought a centaur in one writer's run and less than a year later, fought two more in another. There are a wealth of threats out there, and a variety of stories to be told that fit within Wonder Woman's realm. Future writer's need to be open to more possibilities, I get that we all love gods and monsters, but that's not the sum total of who Wonder Woman is.
Stop trapping her in the Bronze Age and forcing her to be Xena or Red Sonja.
in her own books mythology and would like for it spill over to the sci-fi centric JL. she's always superheroic I still think her world is still so small. a limited number of villains and the same supporting characters. being apart of the gods doesn't just mean she has to deal with Greek mythology(although Echidna and Typon are sitting waiting to be major players for her rogue gallery, maybe the biggest). Shazam/Black adam/Orion/Cheetah all prove the universe has many gods.
she can fight villains who's tech make them just as powerful as well. maybe one she can't beat, showing how science took the place of religion. WW winning the most heart pulling battles showing how religion is where we(humans in general) turn to in times of need.
Scifi amazons is ridiculous and redundant. Also, the Silver age isn't a great backupper for your argument, since it was terrible and the WW stories laughable at best.
Kanigher loved to re-write stories too ... the man spent 20 years writing the same basic stories about WW fighting a giant clam :)
Scifi amazons is ridiculous and redundant. Also, the Silver age isn't a great backupper for your argument, since it was terrible and the WW stories laughable at best.
Redundant to what? It's what Marston intended, he always included sci-fi elements. The lasso itself was an extension of the polygraph machine that he invented. The Invisible Jet was created by the Amazons. They got their knowledge of the outside world from the Magic Sphere and kept pace with, and often improved upon modern technology. Why is that such a bitter pill for some to swallow? It makes perfect sense.
What doesn't make sense is that the Amazons have lived on Paradise Island for thousands of years and still live in mud huts. What were they doing with all their time? They obviously were aware of modern technology from their sex pirating raids, yet still didn't have enough intelligence, foresight or gumption to try to adopt some of it for their own uses. They know about guns, yet they're still bartering babies for swords and shields, when Hephaestus could make them anything. That's nuts. If you're a martial society that fears the outside world of men, one would think you'd want to be prepared when they eventually invaded your island, but all they have is bow and arrows. What type of half-assed, bullshit warriors are they?
Why is it perfectly okay for the Atlanteans to have magic, myth and sci-fi elements, but not okay for Amazons? It's like they're not allowed to invent anything or be mechanically inclined, because they're women. It's overt sexism plain and simple.
@scorpio_cassadine: wow. And I thought the silver age was laughable.
@scorpio_cassadine: wow. And I thought the silver age was laughable.
I don't care what you thought, if you have a counterargument state it. If not, stfu. What's laughable are your attempts at distraction and minimization..
@scorpio_cassadine: my counter argument? How about the fact that WW and the Amazons are only unique when they are characterized by myth and magic. For instance, in the Golden/Silver Age, she was just a generic superhero, something which the Perez and Azzarello runs especially flee from.
@scorpio_cassadine: Nice inclusion of sexism where it isn't prevalent.
Superman and Hal already have the market on sci-fi locked, no need to bring someone else into the fold. Diana and Arthur are good handling the mythical area. Bruce and Barry got crime solving.
Scifi amazons is ridiculous and redundant. Also, the Silver age isn't a great backupper for your argument, since it was terrible and the WW stories laughable at best.
Redundant to what? It's what Marston intended, he always included sci-fi elements. The lasso itself was an extension of the polygraph machine that he invented. The Invisible Jet was created by the Amazons. They got their knowledge of the outside world from the Magic Sphere and kept pace with, and often improved upon modern technology. Why is that such a bitter pill for some to swallow? It makes perfect sense.
What doesn't make sense is that the Amazons have lived on Paradise Island for thousands of years and still live in mud huts. What were they doing with all their time? They obviously were aware of modern technology from their sex pirating raids, yet still didn't have enough intelligence, foresight or gumption to try to adopt some of it for their own uses. They know about guns, yet they're still bartering babies for swords and shields, when Hephaestus could make them anything. That's nuts. If you're a martial society that fears the outside world of men, one would think you'd want to be prepared when they eventually invaded your island, but all they have is bow and arrows. What type of half-assed, bullshit warriors are they?
Why is it perfectly okay for the Atlanteans to have magic, myth and sci-fi elements, but not okay for Amazons? It's like they're not allowed to invent anything or be mechanically inclined, because they're women. It's overt sexism plain and simple.
Marston also always included myth in his original, Aphrodite did breath life into Diana right from the start afterall. I just prefer the storylines that focus on these aspects because I find them more distinctive than the sci/fi stories about WW. It gives her a place in the DC universe that belongs to her more completely. It's not about "can or cannot" in my mind, it's about where she stands out the most.
Also, Marston didn't "invent" the polygraph, he worked on one component of it, the systolic blood pressure test, which was later used by the actual inventors. The Lasso's original powers allowed WW to control people's will, not just compel truth, and is more deeply rooted in his psychological research pertaining to domination and submission ... thus you see all the bondage themes in his work. He was trying to get across the message that submitting to a loving authority rather than an oppressive one essentially makes everyone happy ... thus women should run the world and there would be no war. Of course he also claimed that women "had twice as man love organs as men" which is pretty much ridiculous.
There is no reason the Amazons cannot have modern technology, but IMO it's far less interesting to see a bunch of commando type amazons with guns and tanks ... their power is in their minds, bodies and hand-to-hand skills ... again this was something Marston hit on in his writing, the Amazons were athletes who mentally trained their minds to enhance their physical abilities, showcasing this is much more effective with swords and spears than guns and ammo. In his writing WW was simply the best of the Amazons not a unique being and the Amazons were not afraid of man's word they were out to educate man's world on the future and a coming matriarchy based society (that he predicted would happen within the next 100 years). Azzarello has put a bit of spin on this by having them use old school weapons tech that is crafted by a god ... in the current issue you'll see how it fairs against modern weapons ... makes for an interesting contrast IMO. Also we've only seen the tip of the iceberg with this run, but we know for fact that there are Healers and that the Purple Ray is out there so who knows what else we haven't seen yet ... it's not like anyone in the comics has stated the Amazons have no tech.
I'm not sure how you are drawing a conclusion that Atlanteans having magic and sci/fi is relevant to the conversation, much less how you are making the leap to it being sexist. Last I checked there were plenty of women in Atlantis, including Tula who is a badass guard captain type, who use all kinds of weapons. How is any of this a commentary on the Amazons and who is being sexist?
@scorpio_cassadine: my counter argument? How about the fact that WW and the Amazons are only unique when they are characterized by myth and magic. For instance, in the Golden/Silver Age, she was just a generic superhero, something which the Perez and Azzarello runs especially flee from.
I wouldn't go that far! The GA hero was anything but generic! She was out there fighting the forces of the Nazi's and Japanese ... something SM and BM almost never did ... she had a place in the comics market that they did not fulfill in terms of adventures and was also unique in her approach. She was pretty much the only hero of the times that tried to rehabilitate her villains. SM and BM often had villains die during these early years, but WW nearly always managed to have someone change their ways. She didn't move fully toward mythology until the Silver Age and sadly it was a mess for decades. Perez is the one who really moved her into the myth world with style, reinventing her in ways that again gave her a unique place in the DC universe. Azzarello has taken that even further and nearly created a "pocket universe" for her solo series.
@maccyd said:
@scorpio_cassadine: Nice inclusion of sexism where it isn't prevalent.
Then what is it if it's not sexism? You never hear people complaining about the Atlanteans using myth, science and magic. Marvel's Wakandans are allowed to mix all three elements as well, but when the Amazons do it, it's treated as something abhorrent. Why is that?
This is the same island that's been invaded and destroyed countless times, in numerous runs.
I just want them to have a fighting chance against outside threats. They can't do that when they're stuck in the Bronze Age with bows and arrows and swords and shields. I'm not against myth or magic, if that got the job done against First Born and his army then so be it, but that's not the case. The Amazons are once again being slaughtered to make their adversary look good. If they're supposed to be warriors, let them be great ones and not constant cannon fodder.
Magic and science can be so closely related that you can't tell where one ends and the other begins. This is the grey area the Amazons should inhabit. Rucka told epic stories grounded in mythology, but he also gave the Amazons enough power to defeat Brother Eye and his minions by having Io build the Purple Death Ray.
Gail reintroduced a whole tribe of space-faring Amazons lead by Diana's evil aunt Astarte. They fit well within Wonder Woman's mythos alongside the Themyscirans and the Bana.
This is not an either/or, all or nothing proposition, these aren't mutually exclusive concepts. Science fiction, mythology, fantasy and magic can all co-exist peacefully in Wonder Woman's world. They have from the very start. We need more story telling possibilities besides the same old, same old, we've been getting for the past few years. The gods are seemingly allowed to progress and move forward by keeping up with the times, why aren't the Amazons?
@scorpio_cassadine: because then they're just low rent Kryptonians, and Diana a low rent Superman
@scorpio_cassadine: people can't prefer the Amazons as mythologically based without being sexist? How do you figure? I again ask you why Atlantean, and now Wakandan, cultures play any role here. Why do people constantly cry "it's sexism" whenever someone disagrees about WW or the Amazons? It's not sexist to have a preference in how they are depicted... Or are you a sexist because you believe that without MANs technology the Amazons couldn't possibly win a fight?
@bsaa: how are you doing that by calling her a low rent SM? Seriously learn some of her history before you start making statements like this ... Despite the fact that I agree that she is better when rooted in myth, she has a rich history in sci-if too and there is no reason to think she is cheapened by exploring other story telling options.
@csg_cl: trolling? I'm trolling because I don't want Diana's myth is to become a watered down SM/GL mythos, I.e. Scifi with mythology frosting.
WW fans, man......
Don't ask us any questions if you don't want the answers.
@scorpio_cassadine: people can't prefer the Amazons as mythologically based without being sexist? How do you figure? I again ask you why Atlantean, and now Wakandan, cultures play any role here. Why do people constantly cry "it's sexism" whenever someone disagrees about WW or the Amazons? It's not sexist to have a preference in how they are depicted... Or are you a sexist because you believe that without MANs technology the Amazons couldn't possibly win a fight?
What the hell is a sword or shield going to do against a fighter jet dropping bombs? Not a damn thing. It would be different if the Amazons had mythological beasts to fight for them like in Amazons Attack, but they don't even have that. They could use some (corny as they were) Stygian Killer Hornets right about now against First Born, but they're none to be found.
It's just odd to me that the Amazons are seemingly the only fictional culture in comics that people don't want to see progress. The only difference they have from other isolationist groups is their sex. Like I said before, it's as if women can't build or make anything on their own without the help of a man. They don't even ask Heph for good weapons, because they're apparently too stupid. Hell he has invisible chariots at his disposal that shoot laser beams.
@scorpio_cassadine: I disagree ... I think their magic weapons will hold up against modern tech ... I just had my fill of commando Amazons during the (YAWN) Bana Migdhal years. I'd rather explore the tech Hessia alludes to on healing and the armor she possesses that was tough enough to make an assault iron Super Doomed. It's out there, just not explored.
Where have you been? That's ALL we've gotten for years. I love mythology but I'm sick of it. How many hydra, chimeras, minotaurs, centaurs or different versions of Medusa is she going to have to fight? They seem endless. They're are literally dozens of scenes I could post of Wonder Woman fighting monsters, it's tired.
This is the woman of science that invented the Purple Ray.
She regularly fought alien space invaders, men from mars, women from Saturn and genuine super-villains like the Royal Flush Gang.
There was a time when Paradise Island had space ships, we need some of that left in the title. It's as much a part of Wonder Woman's heritage as mythology. Without it we get stuck in a rut.
A few years ago WW fought a centaur in one writer's run and less than a year later, fought two more in another. There are a wealth of threats out there, and a variety of stories to be told that fit within Wonder Woman's realm. Future writer's need to be open to more possibilities, I get that we all love gods and monsters, but that's not the sum total of who Wonder Woman is.
Stop trapping her in the Bronze Age and forcing her to be Xena or Red Sonja.
I've never been a huge Wonder Woman fan, I have only read Azz's run and one another arc where she fights clones of Flash, Bizarro etc. Anyways Superman's foes are mostly sci-fi based and most of the well known Batman rogues are psychopathic mass murderers but I don't think people are bored with them.
I prefer a mix of stories. Diana going against the sci-if, street-level and magical. Just one or the other gets boring. Look at Batman he sometimes does fight the supernatural and sci if. ( Ra's, the Black Hand) Even Superman fights magical and street level. ( la Enchanradora , Toyman)
Scifi amazons is ridiculous and redundant. Also, the Silver age isn't a great backupper for your argument, since it was terrible and the WW stories laughable at best.
Kanigher loved to re-write stories too ... the man spent 20 years writing the same basic stories about WW fighting a giant clam :)
To be fair that was kinda the standard back then wasn't it? Back then comics were considered to be just for kids so the expectation was that kids would stop reading as they got older and the new kids who started to read in their place wouldn't be familiar with the comics from a few years ago thus leaving the writers free to recycle story lines.
I'm worried that with the way Azzarello has written things there doesn't seem to be much more myth to explore. With the gods themselves being nerfed down to Wonder Woman's level it implies that the rest of the mythical creatures would be weakened even more. Making them too weak to be Wonder Woman villains anymore.
Scifi amazons is ridiculous and redundant. Also, the Silver age isn't a great backupper for your argument, since it was terrible and the WW stories laughable at best.
Kanigher loved to re-write stories too ... the man spent 20 years writing the same basic stories about WW fighting a giant clam :)
To be fair that was kinda the standard back then wasn't it? Back then comics were considered to be just for kids so the expectation was that kids would stop reading as they got older and the new kids who started to read in their place wouldn't be familiar with the comics from a few years ago thus leaving the writers free to recycle story lines.
True it was somewhat standard for the time y, but he was worse than most ... he even admitted in interviews that he didn't really plan out issues or story arcs, he just sat down and started writing and saw what happened ... at one point he even denied that he had retconned WW's origin ... despite it being overhauled rather significantly! He also claimed that Marston's family loved his work ... which they apparently hated :)
@hislolita: I'm not
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