I read a lot of messages from Wonder Woman fans complaining that Superman is damaging to Wonder Woman. That he overshadows her.

History and the current 52 demonstrate that this is a shallow perception. Historically Diana helps and saves Clark many more times than he helps her.

Before I got back to comic books the most common message about a possible SM/WW pairing that I saw was that she was better than him. That she's a warrior who needs another warrior.

Now, with the SM/WW book it seems these people are right. Because, IMO, she's awesome and Clark is pathetic.

So, I ask users who care about this: Is current continuity Clark good enough for Diana? Current continuity only, I don't care for pre-52 discussions. If you have other shipping preferences, please state them before answering.

@imnosuperman: I'm of two minds about it.

On one hand it feels like a cheap stunt to put "the perfect couple" on the page together. But on the other hand I find it frustrating because the relationship has been little more than one dramatic fight between the characters after another. They both come across as LESS than they should be.

Is N52 Clark "good enough" for Diana? No, he's a self absorbed d-bag who can't figure out that someone outside of himself might have a valid world view. Flip side, she's not good enough for him either. She's smug and cocky and a little too egotistical in her portrayals.

I'm not a hater of the relationship, but I do think it's been very poorly managed from the get-go. I also find it amusing that people keep,score on who saves who most.

I find it very unfair to say supes is damagin diana. Supes has every right to co exist like diana.

Well, this couple has 40+ years of history. At first glance you can say that's 'only because they are superstrong'. But this is not She-Hulk with Thor. Or Ms/Cap. Marvel with Namor.

They have 40+ years of history.

But I agree that with 3 Diana vs Superdoom fights, 1 Diana vs corrupted by Circe fight, 1 Valentines Date fight... Plus getting corrupted by Cheetah + the 'Crystal Skull' fight. Wow. I thought it was bad, but I hadn't realized how BAD it was.

Honestly. When I learned of the reboot I thought it was too little too late for Superman. I also thought that with DC completely dominated by Batman fans it doesn't matter how many times they reboot. They'll always write a sub-standard Superman. Sincerely, Superman is a dying character. The sooner they end this couple the better, he's dragging Diana down with him. The writers quite simply don't like the character. There's nothing to be done about it. If they don't want to give their best stories, characterization, heart, intellect for the character... he's dead.

Are you talking about the part where they discuss the secret ID? Clark being inflexible about it and Diana failing to understand his need for it? Well, I guess this discussion would have continued... if it wasn't for Doomed, which was a disaster.

I agree that starting it without proper build up, signs and flirting wasn't the best way to go. I've read contradictory views on this, but it seems it came from Warner's orders and Johns had no interest in properly building it up.

When people say that he overshadows her I take it to mean that she would be a 'damsel', again, a shallow view that's easily disproved by historical ink on paper. Thus why I talked about who saves who.

they have a long history true, but I don't think it's ever been canon that they are more the friends until N52. I understand the desire to pair the two up, and really am not opposed to it in concept. They make a certain amount of sense, in that Football player dating the Cheerleader way. But the relationship so far in N52 has been little more than a source of conflict for everyone involved. Every single arc seems to have at least one battle between them, usually physical which I'm getting very bored with ... for a couple of characters who are supposed to represent love, honesty and compassion they lack any representation of these traits so far.

I was more talking about Tomasi's first issue of SM/WW where Clark is lecturing Diana about how to protect people in a flashback to their first meeting. But there are many examples of them being portrayed as contrary and unwilling to compromise.

I don't think SM is a dead or dying character, I think they writers just struggle to do new things with him (WW too for that matter). His characterization as the "boyscout" seems to have made him boring in the eyes of many so they seem to have gone down this darker path with him. It doesn't resonate with me, but then the whole N52 seems to be going down this path with only a few exceptions. Guess they feel like modern comic readers want more of the Batman-esque grittiness, and who can blame them since Batman sells so well.

I don't think SM overshadows WW or that they are going "damsel" with her, I think they have gone too one-dimensional with her being nothing BUT a warrior, whereas she has so many other interesting angles they could use ... but that doesn't mesh well with darker/gritty SM as her boyfriend.

If Superman pines for Lois Lane, holds hands with Lois Lane, sleeps naked with Lois Lane, call Lois Lane in the middle of the night then he should just be with Lois Lane. There's even been gay innuendo between him and Bruce, for all we know Superman could be shagging Bruce on the down low unbeknown to Wonder Woman. They want to go down this road that's fine but obviously I will not give my stamp of approval to this charade of a relationship. Not when sweet beautiful Steve loves Wonder Woman oh-so very much

how is it any better to straddle her with Steve if she doesn't love him? Him being in love with her isn't enough by itself either.

I loved the idea when it first started, but it seemed DC was either not all in with it or wasn't sure how to go about doing it. It's become blatantly obvious that they don't love each other or at least not anymore. They argue and fight continuously and never seem to be on the same page with anything. I think they should break up, I think WW should be Steve or by her self for a while and Superman should get a new love interest. Preferably someone who doesn't have superpowers, but has a lot of heart and humanity. He SHOULD NOT be with Lois Lane. I hate her and her character.

They can change that with a stroke of the pen, like they did with Superman in the first place.

@brunnhilde: same could be said of the SM relationship. Point is they need to do a better job of writing WW in a relationship regardless of who she is with

@csg_cl: With Steve at least their relationship wouldn't be overseen by his editorial board, though Wonder Woman's editor seems to be asleep at the wheel. With Superman we have a situation where he's surrounded by all these women which is guaranteed to make someone jizz in his pants whereas Steve and Orion were swept aside lest Wonder Woman make a cuckold of Superman, so to speak. Honestly I'm hard pressed to find a single thing I like about this relationship, I just like to not like it.

I agree to this and personally am torn. I want Wonder Woman to be happy first and foremost and I guess we are led to believe that for some vaguely explained reason, it wasn't roses with Steve, but on the other hand I'm one of those apparently ignorant people who think Steve (JLA and JL version if we're going by N52, don't know what the heck the people writing SM/WW are thinking about with their supporting characters) may be better for her character development wise.

I feel like the SM/WW relationship started too suddenly and is now left at a stand still because there are only a couple of options of where to take the relationship now and those would be ridiculous. There's really no imagination in the romance, whereas with Superman with Lois and Wonder Woman with...whomever may have ticked a few questions on what humans are to these godlike beings. What would a female dominated relationship look like? How would a God of War treat a lesser human in a relationship? Would there be spouts of violence? Or temperance? Sure these are questions that were touched on before with every Superman/Lois Lane plotline, but they are better than what we are getting with SM/WW which asks no questions other than "What if they got together and the world hated them?" That question has been asked and answered to little satisfaction or development.

I wasn't a complete SM/WW hater until the latest issues of the Superman/Wonder Woman. The relationship is just awfully done. Is it enticing? Sure, but only for a little while, and the horrid writing of Superman's always right and the whole "us-vs-the world" plotline again and villainizing supporting characters/people Supes and WW had connections and relationships with makes this feel like a really teen angsty romance rather than a hard thought relationship.

Back to the question at hand. Is Superman good enough for Wonder Woman? It depends on the Superman. This Superman, who still seems to be suffering from the Injustice characterization, is a shell of the type of man I would want Wonder Woman to love. But this Wonder Woman is also the shell of what I think Wonder Woman should be and represent. So in this case, maybe they are good enough for each other, because I would not want to subject any normal human love interest to the offputting attitudes of disregard these superheros display at times.

In my country there are no cheerleaders and jocks. I only see a superhero with a superheroine. Like Jean and Scott or Rogue and Gambit. And Supes is more like the head of the school newspaper and member of charity activists and Wondy is the president of sports, politics and literature groups. Unfortunately I have to agree with you on the fights, it's a bad sign if that's what most writers can think of. But I liked Soule's 1st arc. And you are not the 1st 'neutral' fan who wants more happiness and romance for them.

EDIT: Also, their history is that of friends and couldn't get any steamier thant that because of the small fact of... Supes being married to Lois Lane by Warner mandate.

Ah, yeah, that was a bad way of trying to create conflict for them. But the biggest flaw was that Diana was show as accepting Clark's view, while we weren't shown Clark clearly accepting Diana's view on battle as well. And this is the problem: You say that you see too much conflict between them, but it seems that most writers *want* to create conflict between them. They *don't* want their relationship to have many happy moments. It's the exact same conundrum with people who don't like this pairing: Some say they are too perfect together, others say they have nothing in common. Would be cool if detractors could pick a criticism and stick with it.

I have to disagree with you there. His characterization in the new52 is almost identical to pre52. He's just a little bit more assertive.

And here you touched on why I got disillusioned: Seems like DC thought that the only way for this pairing to work was to make Diana more of a warrior. She had to be dumbed down so that Supes wouldn't be massacred by her awesomeness. And even then he's pathetic next to her. I read people like Brunhilde saying that Clark had to be dumbed down, like when he didn't know that Zod was escaping, otherwise Diana would look dumb next to him. Nope, it was Diana all this time. Doesn't matter if he's 'farmboy' or 'dark/gritty'.

That's why I say Superman should be written at his best. And get trained by Diana. And recover some of the good, awesome parts his mythos, like being a leader of the LOS and link to New Genesis. Have at least the qualities from Morrison's reboot. So that he can be minimally worthy of Diana.

I was going to answer what the heck you were talking about. Then I had a bad feeling about this. Well... at least he told Lois that he already had a girlfriend. And that she was a true... love, soulmate, support, heroine, friend, etc.

I liked Bruce and Clark's friendship and bromance when I started reading. Then last year, Batman's 75th anniversary, and Batman fans showed what they really think of this relationship. From Snyder to Snyder, the only thing Superman is good for is to make Batman look good. All the power to fans of a gay Bruce/Clark relationship, but I just don't see it anymore. They are not real friends, I don't see qualities that would make for them being lovers.

They are the Cyclops/Wolverine of the DC universe. But Marvel makes clear that they are rivals, united only in being mutants, but don't stand each other outside of that.

And DC wants to make us accept that this kind of abusive relationship makes for a 'friendship' in Clark and Bruce's case. Not to me. In and out of universe, from Bruce Timm's cartoons to BvS next year, from writers/artists interviews to what their clear disdain for Superman translates into the pages, the clear, shameless Batman franchise privilege: this is not a real friendship/romance.

No woman is too good for Superman. He's as a grade as they can come without being a billionare or a scientist.

@jimishim12: Yeah he's just an alien with godlike powers. What's that compared to being a millionaire or a genius...

Honestly? He's too good for her

@saintwildcard: He's too good for anybody. I feel sorry for any woman that has to be put in a relationship with that airheaded jock. I'm suprised he ain't abusing her.

You're confusing Down to earth Farmboy with Airhead Jock. But I expect no less from a Wonder Woman fan

@saintwildcard: Superman USED to be a down to earth farmboy before the reboot. N52 is a different story for Supes. Then again its a different story for Diana as well, and neither good.

He's actually a down to earth Farmboy in the New 52, and not in Pre 52. He was a stiff character Pre 52, but then came based Pak and nailed it. His Clark is a down to earth dude just trying to do good, not a super intelligent alpha male superhero.

Pak tries to play him up as the "Hero of the People" but it's so conspicuous and on-the-nose, the whole thing falls pretty flat

We've been over this Foamborn, it has nothing to do with how it's written but how jaded and terrible a person you are.

Well said.

@saintwildcard: Both are inherently down to Earth farmboys. While Pre 52 is slightly stiffer, New 52 is more agressive and aprehensive. Although Morrison and Pak really showed the better aspects of New 52 Clark. Johns, Morrison and Loeb did a better job for Pre 52 Clark.

But hey it's okay if you enjoy New 52 Clark more. Pak has been doing a fantastic job on Action although B/S is dipping hard IMO.

Pak has some good ideas with him, but the fact that he keeps shoving the same thing down our throats and doesn't advance Clark, is more aggravating and feels preachy. Especially when he is continually played up as a victim in nearly everything he's in. I am just very annoyed with that plot device for Superman. First its in Action, its in SM/WW (this is the worst culprit mind you), its in Gods and Monsters, its in JL, its in BvS. I'm just tired of the whole "the world is against Superman." It's been done can we move on?

I am personally having a hard time taking this "T-shirt" Superman seriously. I don't know I just have difficult time sympathizing with Clark or taking anything he says with a grain of salt when he's running around on the White House lawn looking like he's that 'roided up football player that has anger issues and goes around punching people while screaming "Hey! I'm not a threat though guys!"

I have no doubt in my mind that there is a "Hero of the People" Clark in mind, but making him look like a jarhead is not the way to go. Heck, give him back his flannel shirt and hat, and I'll be on board, because that's farmboy Clark. Not the guy we have now that looks like he spends hundreds of dollars on a gym membership and muscle supplements.

GAH! I was just here to troll WW fans and you've come to harsh my vibe.

I've gone back and read many stories, while I might enjoy them from a story telling standpoint their Superman interpretations might not do it for me personally. All Star and Birthright are good stories, but personality wise they don't click with me. I do have a thing against Superman writers who tote the No Kill rule, it's not a rule a personally believe and I think because of how many people shove the story "What's wrong with Truth Justice and the American way" I've come to hate that story. I also like to point out that the story didn't prove anything or made it definitive. I enjoy what I heard John Byrne's Superman is meant to be, that Clark Kent is the real person and Superman is the facade which he uses to mask his flaws so that people don't know he's not perfect and don't get scared.

Yeah, I can agree about BM/SM. It's really only had two good arcs. I wish he would jump onto SM/WW, although I do think that TOmasi has gotten better this arc and last issue was IMO in the top 5 of the entire series.

Hmm, I completely disagree. I think all the arcs on his AC run are different from each other, and I'm thinking your definition of what you consider him being a victim is gonna be vaguely tied at best. But do feel free to elaborate. I can counter your point by saying, for years we've had stories where everyone is kissing Superman's ass and the ground he walks on. We've actually had that a lot longer too. And back to my point about being vague, Gods and Monsters was not a story about the government/the world being (and it wasn't even the main focus but a background plot point to help the villain reach his goal) against Superman, but rather someone framing him for crimes. And while BvS and Truth are dealing with the matter of can people trust Superman, they are both different approaches to it and they both establish trust problems for different reasons. I would find the "Can we trust Superman?" aspect more appealing in BvS if not for the fact that in Truth Superman has no secret identity which I hope is something the work with for a long time.

I am personally having a hard time taking this "T-shirt" Superman seriously. I don't know I just have difficult time sympathizing with Clark or taking anything he says with a grain of salt when he's running around on the White House lawn looking like he's that 'roided up football player that has anger issues and goes around punching people while screaming "Hey! I'm not a threat though guys!"

If he had the power to fly to the WHite House within seconds he wouldn't have had too, but when they sent people to hurt his friends, take away his home from Smallville and threaten him and Wonder WOman, the dude deserves the right to be cautious around them. He needed to talk to the President, if he had walked up to the WHite House, they wouldn't have let him.

I have no doubt in my mind that there is a "Hero of the People" Clark in mind, but making him look like a jarhead is not the way to go. Heck, give him back his flannel shirt and hat, and I'll be on board, because that's farmboy Clark. Not the guy we have now that looks like he spends hundreds of dollars on a gym membership and muscle supplements.

If Superman could, he'd have the cape on. I loved the era when he had the shirt/jeans look, but I can see why they got rid of the cape for this arc cus it would clash aesthetically. That was more of a fun/quirky time in his life, this is a bit more serious. But if that's the way you choose to see it, that's your opinion. The point was to emphasize that Superman is not just the suit and his powers, it is Clark Kent's desire to help even when limited to his current power setting. While some writers have touched upon it, as did Johns in his SM run, I think there is a plethora of stories to be told and that's something Superman is in desperate need of after 76 years.

Actually, is wonder woman good enough for Superman?

That's also a good question. And it does come back to which Wonder Woman are we talking about? Wonder Woman is shown recently to be less diplomatic and more aggressive, which if we are giving Superman the benefit of the doubt and dubbing him "Paragon", I would argue she is not. Heck, they both seem to be at odds with their own credos here. Superman's out being oddly diplomatic (while still managing to beat the crap out of a few people), while Wonder Woman--because the writers deem it--is interrogating people and manhandling them or snapping their necks. While I also think the Superman no-kill policy is dead and done, he at least finds options (that are obvious to him--I hesitate to say he tries to find ALL available options) to resolve things without killing. Wonder Woman spouts her grievances towards war---before drawing her sword and cutting people down.

In the end, I think the writing staff made what "could've been" into "what should never be." Technically you could pair anyone up, if the writing makes it believable (if Bruce Timm managed to pull off the Batman/Wonder woman in JLU, you'd think Superman/Wonder Woman wouldn't have had such a hard time).

@saintwildcard: Sorry dude :/

I see your point and hey I'm not going to bash your opinion. At least you admit they are good stories just the Superman isn't for you which is fine. If you haven't read For All Seasons I strongly recommend it. I loved "whats so funny..." but once again I see your point. You should read Byrnes run if you haven't. Fantastic stuff imo although the dialogue is dated its still good.

Well I enjoyed B\S for the most part up until Truth. It's the only Truth title I dislike which is a shame since I love Pak as a writer (check out his Hulk run. Seminal work.) I don't want Pak on SM/WW. I wish him and Kuder would be on Superman since they're the best creative he's had after Morrison and Morales and they could get more publicity etc. I haven't read the last few issues of SM/WW but I've heard great things about this last one.

@theincrediblesuperhulk8642: I would skip SM/WW tbh. While this last issue tied well with Truth, I don't think the writers know who any of the supporting characters are. Everyone besides Superman is pretty inconsistent with how they were portrayed in other issues. The content may have been the best the title has yet to offer, but the other characters are mishandled to a distracting degree. But feel free if you are curious, just thought to give a warning.

I went back to look through Pak's AC, and it is beginning to grow on me. He still feels preachy, but most of the time its handled with good enough taste that it isn't distracting. So I may have misjudged Pak and honestly I wouldn't minded if he took up the SM/WW reigns. He may be able to right that sinking ship---so to speak.

Superman isn't even good enough to be Superman. But given that DC openly admitted that they only made them a couple, because women only want to read romance, its pretty insulting to the idea of Wonder Woman no matter how Superman was potrayed.

Well I really enjoyed the previous issues of Tomasi's SM/WW but I dropped most of the excessive titles I had to give way to a different line up of books and a more diverse pull list. So the only Super title im currently reading regularly is Superman since it's the central book. I might catch up later on but for now I'm good with just Superman.

Meh his work on BM/SM really is slamming down with Truth wheras before it was quite good. It's a bummer since most of Truth is pleasantly good.

@saintwildcard said:

@alsummers said:

@saintwildcard: Superman USED to be a down to earth farmboy before the reboot. N52 is a different story for Supes. Then again its a different story for Diana as well, and neither good.

He's actually a down to earth Farmboy in the New 52, and not in Pre 52. He was a stiff character Pre 52, but then came based Pak and nailed it. His Clark is a down to earth dude just trying to do good, not a super intelligent alpha male superhero.

This Clark here, I could see Diana loving this guy. I think that Pak gives Clark the right amount of heart and drive, I just wish for a little bit more of intellect.

@alsummers: Storming into the White House wasn't that big a transgression considering that the government snatched his friends, plucked his parents' house off their little square of land and desecrated their graves. If you think that Superman is as powerful as a nation, this was an act of war. And if the US government has no qualms about infringing the citizens' constitutional rights it makes you wonder who's a bigger threat to us, if them or Superman, and who watches the watchmen. So much for the American way

As for Pak, he's decent but his writing is a bit clichéd, granted he handles those clichés a lot better than Meredith Finch. I mean look no further than the page posted above, we have Superman holding those cumbersome chains and all the people standing behind him, it's a pretty straightforward metaphor. And children swarming around him, hanging from his neck, straight out of a pixar movie. It's all a little much for my palate

Which is exactly what I meant about Pak being preachy. But I do think that Pak is a good Superman writer, there are just things about the issues that I don't like being shoved down my throat, which inevitably is what happens in every Superman book. As for a White House lawn thing, I dislike it more from a that same heavyhandedness in trying to prove a point, rather than a plot event. Again, I have the same issues I have with Batman in the Superman is apparently ALWAYS right and is just a victim...personally I can't help but feel it more cheesy than Messiah!Superman.

@alsummers: I don't like the t-shirt and jeans Superman for the reason that it's not Superman but I prefer the Superman that tore through the White House and took care of business, to the one from a few months prior, that would sooner die than punch a woman. If you look past the fact that Superman looks like John Cena, the scene is actually pretty legit, he was justifiably angry.

That maybe my issue with the whole situation. I disliked the design anyways. Superman marching in with his suit and cape gives him more of a poise and position that I can watch him work through. Him rushing in with t-shirt and jeans--to me--makes him look a little off kilter and insane and doesn't really match well with the severity with the situation at hand.

But if Superman donned the suit without his powers, when he rode that motorcycle f.ex, that would've also looked a bit funny. But I agree, perhaps a jacket would've looked nice in this scene

While I am not a big fan of the pair, I don't really worry about it either as sooner or later they are gonna end things. But i totally disagree with what you said about Superman being a dying character and dragging Diana down with him. As far as DC titles are concerned, Superman is still one of their best selling books. the only DC books that sell better are the Batman books, Justice League and Harley Quinn. Superman sales consistently rank in the 20s while Wonder Woman almost never breaks into the top 50. Superman is still their second most marketable character after Batman. SO Superman may not be what he used to be, but that hardly makes him a dying character.

Surely I'm not the only one that noticed the conversation about whether Superman should -chose- Lois Lane or Wonder Woman focuses exclusively on Superman and which one is best for him. If Superman's relationship with Lois Lane doesn't resonate with viewers then in comes Wonder Woman, the pundits say. Furthermore, the argument people invariably employ in favor of Superman/Wonder Woman is that he can truly enjoy himself shagging Wonder Woman without pounding her into a pile of meat...

if superman starts something with lois then only if lois is his total slave lol

Gal Gadot was asked who Wonder Woman would choose, Bats or Supes.

Cavill was asked who Supes would choose.

Affleck will probably be asked who Batman should choose: Wondy, Lois, Clark, Martha, etc.

Don't make this into a sexism issue. These are just typical Hollywood questions.

'If Superman's relationship with Lois doesn't resonate with viewers...' is a false premise over a false possibility. Honestly, it's even cruel of you to remark that part of the video. Gadot was chosen amongst other 5 other actresses all of which made tests with Affleck. Please, it's bad enough to see the clear privilege of the Batman franchise. To read that it's Superman who is getting special treatment is mind blowing and pure sadism. Everything is meticulously stacked for 'viewer resonance' for Bats and Wondy. Just like in the cartoons, where Batman got all the dances. Including with Lois.

Soule's 1st arc was great. I didn't like 'Doomed' exactly because it made Clark pathetically weak minded. Tomasi started shaky but corrected his characterizations in his 1st arc. 'Truth' started slow, but is excellent now.

The big problem for me is that I'd like for Clark to really help Diana deal with her problems. Diana's cast and world are quite simply not present. It's a double negative in that WW fans complain that she's his 'supporting character', while he is always needing her help but isn't allowed to be important in her life like she has been for him. 'Truth' while great is continuing this problem.

@imnosuperman: The conversation about the Superman/Wonder Woman relationship, since they kissed in Justice League, way before they asked Henry Cavill his opinion on it, has always been about Superman and what's best for him. I don't know whether that's because Steve is not as well-known as Lois Lane, people assume Wonder Woman's always available, or because we're all so used to Wonder Woman playing second fiddle to Superman, she's thought of as a side character on some subconscious level. And I mean it, it's alarming how strongly Superman's presence is felt in Sensation Comics, it's almost like she's Supergirl.

And to be honest with you, it's really beginning to sound like you're afraid to lose Wonder Woman to Batman more than anything.