I think that she needs a writer who will 1. respect her mythos 2. add to it and not redo everything 3. gets her character. I think DC has been stepping it up wrt her lately and i hope it doesnt slow down. though i dont begrudge anyone if they are skeptical of their treatment of her since she does have a long history of being shafted and what not.

her new 52 run spat on so much of what she meant imo that i certainly do hate quite a few of the decisions made for her character but i think that is more Azzarello than DC, as a whole

Well Morrison is a better writer than Azzerrelo so I have high hopes. I used to like Azz, but I actually re-read some of the stuff I was initially impressed with and he can be quite juvenille writer. He hasn´t written a classic like All-Star, not even close.

there have been much better runs unless you mean for her popularity

Batman features more because he has more media exposure, his continuity and mythos is constantly evolving, people who respect him are allowed to write his comics, his villains are made to be much cooler than any other DC villains (when in my opinion, superman and wonder woman at least in concept have just as cool villains) he also has movies that respect his mythos, which add to the quality of the stories told.

Superman has a similar respect paid him, but his movies have reflected bad on him which has made him seem less cool.

WW not even given a chance.

It´s a circular argument. If you are selling bannanas and pears in a market and you put the bananas in a ostentaious spread, and serve wine with the bananas and put more variety of bananas out which fit the various tastes of customers, then on the other hand you bunch unripened pears into a dirty basket, then you ask, why aren´t my pears selling more than my bananas? then I say to you, you are a fool.

DC has rigged it so Batman sells more. One becuase the writers now working for DC are all Batman fanboys and secondly, I don´t think DC are comfortable with the ideas and ideals that wonder woman stands for. I don´t think this is some conspiracy, I just think she happens to be very high concept in comparison to Bats and Supes is more high concept sci fi which they can handle. WW is far more philosophical and political, dealing with Utopias, All-Female societies critiquing a patriachal world, and woman who wants to bring peace to the world and who would rather handle a fight at times through discourse and persuasion than violence. This is intolerable to the all boys club that is DC comics. But make no mistake about it, ww story is every bit as compelling as her male counter-parts in it´s own right and I think a lot of people find that threatening rather than refreshing.

Well Morrison is a better writer than Azzerrelo so I have high hopes. I used to like Azz, but I actually re-read some of the stuff I was initially impressed with and he can be quite juvenille writer. He hasn´t written a classic like All-Star, not even close.

@csg_cl: do you know if that amazon pilot was ever released? i need to see it

Τhe only problem of WW is the insecurefans that keep the character back.

Fans, that don't want WW to have any capable male character in her book, that no male villain can be a struggle for Wonder Woman because it "diminishes" her,. Fans that want Wonder Woman to have little to zero sexuality because god knows, a symbol of femininity can be sexually active, I mean look at her new costume.

The worst thing is how whinny some WW fans are even though these decades have been the best for Wonder Woman since Marston.

I mean look at all those fan favorite runs:

• Jimenez
• Rucka
• Simone
• Azzarello

And now Grant Morrison writes E1 and WW for the first time ever has three solo titles and co-stars in two more.

You people are greedy.

Τhe only run that is cut from continuity is Azz's and that is a problem most major DC titles have at the moment.

The other runs were perfect in being both conected to the dcu and loyal to Diana.

You´re right that it is the only one out of continuity, but to be fair to Azz it is also one of the more well-written runs. I will give him that much. I honestly wouldn´t mind it so much and not have found it so irresponsible if WW had an established mythos and this was a "what if/elseworld" deal. This was a pivotal time for ww and now her story has been completely dismantelled everything that was being slowly built by Rucka and Simone to modernise her. She still has no credible villains/no estabished supporting cast etc. Batman and supes can be played around with because of the fact they have such a strong history you know that their mythos will never entirely vanish from pop culture. WW is very different. Lets just hope her Earth One comic gets it right.

To be fair, WW never really had an "established" mythos to begin with. Nearly every writer redid her mythos for their run in some way or another.

Not at all. she very much did and I think from Perrez onward some people took liberties, but it was always put back on track, then someone would just do a bad run. I think there was defo story being established. Or atleast there were parts that were kept intact until New 52, especially her powers, the amazons, certain supporting cast members etc. However, you´re right in the sense some runs were so bad the next writers didn´t really take much cue of what had happened before. For instance I think the writer who introcuded Gateway City wrote a really bad run, but actually, The Gateway City idea was not such a bad one.

@willienotwilliam: Amazon didn't get very far ... Didn't ever get past concept

I think WW needs to have men fear her and needs to show a clear bias towards saving women. She should openly treat women much better than men. It's only logical because WW comes from a culture of gender separatism where men are deemed unworthy of "paradise". It takes some radical beliefs to be a gender separatist. Yet anytime I see WW (besides Frank Millers), she seems to be the epitome of moderation. It doesn't add up and it dishonest. Its like a KKK member believing racial separatism is the ideal (she regards Themescyra's set up as better than "Man's world"). Yet insisting theyre not racist and expecting to be taken as a champion of everybody. No. WW is sexist by definition. I wish she'd own it and be open about it. I want her to angrily dominate men and act like a radical feminist. She should be a lesbian too as its likely she would be if coming from an island with no men. As she is she's too wishy washy. She should be heavily muscled. Her attitude should be - any time she wastes spending on a man, she could be spending on a woman. WW is analogous to the gender separatist feminists of the 2nd wave. Her ongoing mission should be to try to teach women that the Paradise Island model is the only way to get lasting peace paradise and freedom.

Meredith Finch may not be as good a writer as you'd like, but she is not an old hag. Her writing may seem new, but its far from garbage. You shouldnt personally insult someone because you dislike their work.

@jordanwise73: So you want WW to be unlikable? That goes against everything she's ever been. She's a symbolism of equality and that women can do anything that men can. Feminism = equality not superiority.

I want her to be a logical product of Paradise Island. Logically she isn't just a feminist, she's a gender separatist as well. Currently, AFAIK, the idea behind WW is that shes trying to bring peace to the imperfect, "mans world". She brings values like peace and understanding in the comics, or at least thats the idea, but it was actually gender separation that makes Paradise Island so much "better", and the values that necessitate gender segregation and banning are inherently intolerant. WW's problem is that everyones too scared to take risks and make her anti-heroic. Batman works because we live through him when he unleashes his rage and disregards societies rules. He says and does what were afraid to say and do but secretly, or openly wish we could. WW could be like that for women and stick it to the man overtly. All the anger that women feel for being subject for what they see as patriarchy, WW could be like a catharsis.

The OP once said that WW carefully tows the line between empowering and sexist. I say forget the line. WW shouldn't be boxed into trying to please everybody.

@jordanwise73: Yes she is a separatist by birth. Something traditionally she hasn't necessarily agreed with. I get where you're coming from. It would definitely be a completely different take on the character but its a very hard sell. It would make sense locigally for her to have the beliefs of a separatist but it also makes sense that she doesn't. Prior to being a god her self she was given life by the gods. It makes sense then that she is "better" and has more wisdom than an average human would.

I feel like that would just obscure her even further. All she needs is an extremely talented writer like Rucka or Morrison to write well crafted stories that play true to her mythos.

@klaus: I went a little far with the old hag comment but she still sucks just like most of the fans claim she does. Ratings and reviews says otherwise mate. Funny because I never see you get defensive when people throw insults at Wonder Woman.

i still think DC should do more. theyve upped the amount of attention she's been getting but its not enough imho

@revivalmh

Doesn't agree with? She does still see Paradise Island as paradise, right? So this is someone who goes to mans world, sees all the problems and surely believes men are the cause. Her home has no men and it doesn't have things like greed and pettiness and all the other flaws of the human condition. As I see it Wonder woman tries working with the imperfect set up (trying to make the best of men and women together) because she can't/won't separate them by force and it wouldn't solve anything if she did. But WW does believe she's working with a flawed model. In the effort to be likeable, this hasn't been put across very clearly in her personality, which makes her seem passive and difficult to define. If the Amazon model is better and if she, like most feminists, believe its man's world, that men hold the power, than man must be to blame for the separatist model's rejection as well as bringing all the troubles of the world. Yet there's no particular antagonism towards men? Batman and Superman should be the only men she respects.

@jordanwise73: By this logic Superman and Batman should also be tyranst lording their powers over the masses given how many alternate universe versions have been like that.

@squalleon: Tha fans are not the ones who write her poorly. The fans are not the ones deciding whether or not she gets a movie, tv show or video game. The fans get angry at seeing her struggle with male villains that other male character stomp with ease. They get angry at her being overly sexualized or used as a shallow love interest.

She has three solos? How long did it take for her to get those. Meanwhile Superman and Batman have had multiple books for decades.

@jordanwise73: If she respects any man at all wouldn't that go against her ideals in your scenario? Surely she could see there are good men and there are bad men. Just like there are good women and bad women. I just don't think making her naive like that would create a good story. They've depicted Diana as sort of brutish and naive before and to me it doesn't work well.

For the first two sentence... that would not persuade me to buy her comic at all. Why in the heck would I want to see women force men beg on their knees or vise versa?

The third sentence. Superman isn't as intimidating to anyone around him, that still doesn't stop him from kicking people's ass very often.

It seems as though the Wonder Woman you want, is more of a man-hating female chauvanist.

quite frankly id rather her emasculate men instead of kissing them when they constantly call her names that reduce her to her body parts like azzarello had her do

Doesnt seem to be a very marketable idea though.I mean who do you honestly expect to want to read that a story where WW is total man hater. Yeah sure we have asshole heros before.But those characters are generally assholes to everyone regardless of gender.

I just dont see people sticking with it long enough for her to develop out of it anymore than I see people sticking a male hero who thinks that a woman place in the world is serving a mans every word.

@akintoussaint : a bunch of new fans will praise DC for finally fixing WW, like how people did with Azz...

@revivalmh

Surely she could see there are good men and there are bad men.

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Not_all_men Quote: In feminist discussions, the plaintive cry of "Not all men are like that!" is possibly the most commonly used derailing tactic of all.

If the "Not all men" is a derailment and a non argument to real life feminists (who see things in terms of [privileged] class vs [marginalized] class, not individuals), why would it be any different for Diana?

The respect for Superman and Batman would be on a martial level is all. One warrior to another.

People talk about unlikeable and that they won't want to read it ...but what do DC have to lose? She has no movie as they can't even write/settle on a screenplay, no video games, and her comics don't really sell. So why not take risks? They might mess up their non existent gravy train?

:

@jordanwise73: You're resorting to a straw man argument. The reason 'not all men' is shot down is because feminists indeed know that not all men are oppressors. They're frustrated by responses to arguments they don't actually make.

Furthermore, WW has an upcoming movie so DC does have something to lose. It's the same reason they won't make a movie with Superman becoming a mad despot or actually make the mainstream comic version such a thing.

@jordanwise73: Yes, the "not all men" argument is a derailment to those who are actually trying to make a difference in equality. If we're applying it to your ideas for WW it's not a derailment. Any true feminist could see applying blanket assumptions about all men is absurd. All I am saying is WW should be above that.

She is still an icon. There is always a chance that if DC take such a big risk like that they could do more harm to her iconic status.

@agent_z:

It's more accurate to say that they don't believe all men consciously oppress. But do so via simple engagement (to varying degrees) in what they see as a patriarchal system. They do believe all men do the latter.

Wonder Woman's position surely is even now, that men - as a class/group- have denied women paradise by their very existence in a shared gender society. She has solid evidence that an all female society has none of the flaws of the human/sentient condition. The only reason why one would gender segregate is due to the belief that patriarchal dominance or flaws of the human condition is an inherent aspect of maleness. You don't ban all men from even stepping foot into your system unless they represent a serious and inherent threat to said system. Yes there have been exceptions but they've only been temporary and if absolutely necessary, with the Amazons very much on guard. These are the beliefs of the Diana of now. They're just underlying, for fear of her being unlikeable. I'm saying they should be made forefront, because WW as she is, is a forgettable Xena knockoff. The same Xena who beat Hercules in the ratings and had six seasons. WW, who's modern incarnation got cancelled after one pilot. DC keep trying to fix her because they know she's not working. But they're afraid to do what is necessary an give her a more extreme and hardcore persona that would reflect her backstory. Forget about trying to appeal to "male gaze" for a start. It's not in her character to try to look sexy for men. Or even care what men think of her for that matter. WW broke ground in the previous eras by being skimpy and doing action. The new unchartered territory is having women in mainstream who don't look like walfs (waifs like Gal Gadot) and who have a hardcore attitude thats uncompromising and unaccomodating to men.

Furthermore, WW has an upcoming movie so DC does have something to lose.

Does she? Last I heard they cancelled Joss Whedon's attempt (if he can't do it, really who can), went through many scriptwriters, and are still looking for a female director. It sounds like it's in development hell.

"No one is saying not to take risks but said risk still have to make sense.The question I'm asking is if people were not interested in Wonder Woman before how does making her a man hater fix that?"

As I said, it's already underlying and subtexed in her character. It becomes a contradiction when DC try to deny that and try to take a soft approach to her to "chickify" WW. What I'm proposing, hasnt actually been done before. Lose the sex symbol aspect and make her hard as nails in every respect in her dealings with men.

"Your comparison to Batman doesn't ready work with me because while everyone hates corrupt societies,the majority of women don't blame men for their problems and are not likely to get behind some one do does.Not to mention not everyone sees Batman that way."

I can't imagine the proposition that if women ran the world, the world would be far more harmonious, to end up being unpopular among women. Again, WW is not a hit among women now,so why not try something radical?

She kicked Superman's ass in injustice comics

@agentofchaos1: why did they fight?

@kiba: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBHNoLCHD5Q

DC screwing her

>:))))))))

Again just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean that it will hook readers.People generally dont want cheer bigots.

The hugely negative media reaction that will result for one.Wonder Woman is a feminist icon. Portraying a character like that as a unlikable butch who hates men has bad implications.I can almost see the call for boycotts of DC products now.

@agentofchaos1: thanks

@somayareece: You are kidding right? Go and ask Agent or one of the other WW fans here about how much I always argue for and defend Wonder Woman. The only time I wouldnt defend her is if someone else has already done it, in which case I won't intervene as there isn't a need to repeat someone elses words.

@jordanwise73: You must not know a whole lot about that pilot. If you did, you'd be aware that making the character edgier was one of the many reasons it was cancelled before it hit the air. Test audiences reacted negatively to it. Just as audiences reacted negatively to Frank Miller's portrayal of the character in ASBAR and DKSA.

And yes the movie is still coming out. They have a replacement director look it up.

What you're suggesting is appealing to the male gaze. Or rather a sexist male's interpretation of what feminism is.

The market is calling for diversity in women. Diversity is race, sexuality, religions, gender identity and personality. Meaning that you're hardcore, misandrist will be taken as one of the many failures to create interesting female characters and further proof the immaturity and bigotry of superhero comics.

Lastly, Xena's story was about a woman trying to atone for her past as a brutal warlord. Ironically enough, what you're suggesting is making her Xena without the complexity that made the character popular.

@akintoussaint

.People generally dont want cheer bigots.

If someone can point to an all female island thats ancient, thats a utopia and has always been one since the gender separation began, she has proof of certain claims we would find bigoted in the real world. Not every protagonist is cheer-worthy. I think its enough if people merely find her interesting and understandable. Its understandable that she would end up thinking that way. given the backstory. Again the subtext is already there.

The hugely negative media reaction that will result for one.Wonder Woman is a feminist icon.

SJW's would cheer her loss of sex symbol status. They'd also cheer her new butchness due to it being different and her visually portraying strength instead of sexual availiability. I've seen enough blogs to know they're about that. All the practicality complainers would be instantly onside. .

Portraying a character like that as a unlikable butch who hates men has bad implications.I can almost see the call for boycotts of DC products now.

Those calls are inevitable from some anytime a major change is done on a member of the Trinity.

ou must not know a whole lot about that pilot. If you did, you'd be aware that making the character edgier was one of the many reasons it was cancelled before it hit the air.

It was edgier in shallow ways that didn't have anything to do with her core character. It was just moving the comicbook persona into an edgier setting.

Just as audiences reacted negatively to Frank Miller's portrayal of the character in ASBAR and DKSA.

Frank Millers has some attitude yes but its closer to new 52 than my idea:

: https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/CBCvxiLpeET5.ysT8whVmA--/YXBwaWQ9c3JjaGRkO2g9ODk4O3E9OTU7dz01NDA-/http://comicartcommunity.com/gallery/data/media/738/superman__wonder_woman.jpg

Shes portrayed as an iceberg to be melted by a man in Millers work.

And yes the movie is still coming out. They have a replacement director look it up.

That movie will probably have her start out sexist and develop out of it by the end.

What you're suggesting is appealing to the male gaze. Or rather a sexist male's interpretation of what feminism is.

My conclusions are mostly based on her gender separatist ideology and the radical feminism that would underlie it. Its not sexist to point out gender separatism's incompatibility with what is presented as a feminist moderate WW. Gender separatism is not a moderate stance.

"Lastly, Xena's story was about a woman trying to atone for her past as a brutal warlord. Ironically enough, what you're suggesting is making her Xena without the complexity that made the character popular."

That sounds like completely different characters. The only similarity in the above with what I'm presenting is they both have edge to them. This WW would be much tougher looking than Xena.

What DC need to do is stop focusing on fixing her and her world, but rather streamlining it so it isn´t so damn confusing. Every writer comes in, changes her villains, her supporting cast, her origin, what she stands for, who she is, where she stays. No wonder people are dizzied going into ww comics. Stop focusing on fixing, focus on developing and enhancing what is already there. Give us a definitive ww. Then once she is established and people know her world, then one can mess around with it, and create alternate versions. That´s why that stuff works so well with Batman and Superman. Can you imagine if Mark Millar had have come in when he was writing Red Son and said, now this is going to be cannon superman, he will be a villain who fights for the soviet union? Imagine how people would have reacted. No one who had invested time in Superman would have gone within a 100 miles of that comic. But because superman´s mythos was well established, superman fans could get a kick out of seeing his world from a slightly different perspective. I would probably love the New 52 version of WW if WW´s world had been established like that.

Imagine if Ares was always known as her archnemisis and was one of DC´s most recognized villains; how cool it would be to see a world where Ares was actually Diana´s mentor. Or if the Amazons had been really established as this peaceful society, to see them as child killers and rapists who´d lied to Diana. This run could have been like WW´s Red son. Instead it´s completely devisive. Diana´s world just hasn´t been established to the degree that WW fans can truly appreciate seeing her from another perspective, especially one that claims to be cannon. Once Diana´s mythos is solidified a bit more, I think we will see less complaints about taking her or the Amazons in new, innovative directions.

@jphulk26: and what makes u so sure people will find your version of Diana anymore interesting or understandable?

You're version sounds just as shallow in edginess as the one from the t.v pilot.

Again, people want diversity in female characters which also means diversity in feminine portrayals. Kamala Khan, Cindy Moon and Barbara Gordon are popular enough without needing an 'edge' to them. There's a reason this trend of unlikable antiheroes got real old, real fast during the 90s.