I think the point is pretty much to just get rid of the Amazons. They've been eliminated, and we've essentially been told the reason why they're not worth bringing back, at least not while this story remains canon for anything.

Too many reboots have always been the problem with the title, but all of this stuff is simply going to have to be erased. Azzarello's basically systematically destroying the original origin. As such, his character is not Wonder Woman and never will be.

i like this version better

Now granted I don't read this series but it seems to me Wondy's "fighting with the power of love" tactic is quickly disappearing. Cause based on what Babs said these Amazons don't have much compassion.

How sad.....

I haven't read this comic so I can't say anything drastic about it and can't really have any heavy feelings about it, because that would be considered idiocy by most sane people.

The issue that the writer will have to deal with is that he's now turned the amazon society into a character, like gotham is for Batman, and he'll have to treat it as such.

Previous WW's origin was based on Pandora (made from clay, gifts from gods, etc). Now she is another Hercules-like character (like 99.9% of mythological characters... percy jackson, perseus, etc...). Quite abused.

She wad interesting because her amazon heritage and qualities... now she is only another demigod, good only because Zeus' DNA...

New amazons (similar to mythological amazons) murdered men and male children for 3000 years, never evolving? It could be possible only if they were immortals! If so, why the babies?

And why WW was raised with completely different moral values???

Next reboot I want kryptonians to be an evil super-race who sent Kal-El on Earth to murder humanity. Like Saiyans. Or Bruce Wayne to be the son of Ras Al Ghul, being a vigilante as act of rebellion.

Though we don't read this particular comic of The New 52 we're not surprised by the change and if there's one thing DC takes advantage of is its ability to revamp its own canon on a whim. Can anyone blame DC? After all, these characters are fictional so doesn't that make their existence malleable? Is the controversy in the fact that DC has made such changes or that its readers refuse to?

Don't get us wrong we absolutely hate the changes DC made to Superman, but it is what it is and as readers we can either decide to hang on and see where the ride takes us or get off at the next stop and move on to other comics.

I have to admit the "remake" of the Wonder Woman series has not been up to my taste. Everyone kind of looked the same and the story felt so out there. It wasn't until this issue that really helped me understand everything. The portrayal of the Amazons and the fleshed out character of the gods (mostly Hephestus) was well done. So going back to the question, yeah for this reader it was a good call to make the change. It's one of those changes that actually work because the writer knows his stuff.

anything that increases interest in the most forgotten major series of DC is good GL 1 movie batman 7 movies Superman 7 movies. Zatanna has more followers than her.

DC Women Kicking Ass has a few things to say about this: http://dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/post/19704793909/ww7

(I particularly liked the part where she compares the change to making the Kents leaders of a babynapping ring)

And, honestly this reminds of the general attitude of RadFemHub, specially when they talk about castrating baby boys or just outright murdering them. Really not a connection I want to make to Wonder Woman

Diana's sisters were easy to care about before. Now they're basically savages along the lines of the Amazons of Bana-Mighdall.

I love Wonder Woman but it seems DC is slowly stripping away everything that made her unique and her books fun to read.

As a mythology enthusist I like the changes. As a Wonder Woman fan I'm surprised by just how "un-upset I am. This new direction even adds a realism to the Amazons.I can't wait to see what's next.

Ugh.

Double standards sicken me. These are people who go out into the world with the sole purpose of using another human being, maybe even raping them, killing them, and, if they happen to have a boy, trade him off into slavery. But you see, since these are women, it's ok. They are "brave and empowered", not sociopaths who can't feel emotion for any human being not their kind.

If this was a fictional society of men instead of a fictional society of women, people would reject the idea, there would even be aggressive, international media coverage, people would get fired and there would be public apologies.

So, applaud them, fine. It's fictional so of course it doesn't matter right? It only matters if its a woman in a fridge in a published drawing.

@Hawk80: @Hawk80 said:

Previous WW's origin was based on Pandora (made from clay, gifts from gods, etc). Now she is another Hercules-like character (like 99.9% of mythological characters... percy jackson, perseus, etc...). Quite abused.

She wad interesting because her amazon heritage and qualities... now she is only another demigod, good only because Zeus' DNA...

New amazons (similar to mythological amazons) murdered men and male children for 3000 years, never evolving? It could be possible only if they were immortals! If so, why the babies?

And why WW was raised with completely different moral values???

Next reboot I want kryptonians to be an evil super-race who sent Kal-El on Earth to murder humanity. Like Saiyans. Or Bruce Wayne to be the son of Ras Al Ghul, being a vigilante as act of rebellion.

And don't forget Jonathan and Martha Kent run a black Market of babies they sell to rich childless couples (they kept Kal-El 'cause he was awesome)

@Lion_Heart22 said:

Ugh.

Double standards sicken me. These are people who go out into the world with the sole purpose of using another human being, maybe even raping them, killing them, and, if they happen to have a boy, trade him off into slavery. But you see, since these are women, it's ok. They are "brave and empowered", not sociopaths who can't feel emotion for any human being not their kind.

If this was a fictional society of men instead of a fictional society of women, people would reject the idea, there would even be aggressive, international media coverage, people would get fired and there would be public apologies.

So, applaud them, fine. It's fictional so of course it doesn't matter right? It only matters if its a woman in a fridge in a published drawing.

No double standard with me. I wasn't bothered by the Kyles GF being put in the fridge either. :p

@Maki_P said:

@Hawk80 said:

Previous WW's origin was based on Pandora (made from clay, gifts from gods, etc). Now she is another Hercules-like character (like 99.9% of mythological characters... percy jackson, perseus, etc...). Quite abused.

She wad interesting because her amazon heritage and qualities... now she is only another demigod, good only because Zeus' DNA...

New amazons (similar to mythological amazons) murdered men and male children for 3000 years, never evolving? It could be possible only if they were immortals! If so, why the babies?

And why WW was raised with completely different moral values???

Next reboot I want kryptonians to be an evil super-race who sent Kal-El on Earth to murder humanity. Like Saiyans. Or Bruce Wayne to be the son of Ras Al Ghul, being a vigilante as act of rebellion.

And don't forget Jonathan and Martha Kent run a black Market of babies they sell to rich childless couples (they kept Kal-El 'cause he was awesome)

This isn't a statement on the WW changes and I could be wrong but IIRC pre 52 during New Krypton and some Batman/Superman issues it was stated Krypton just before being destroyed was hostile and warlike to other planets. They was also a long standing war with the Durlan and now my memory is even fader here but all but wiped them out. There was also the Kryptonians that hated face to face contact with each other before that got retconned.

Again even though I like it it's not a statement on WW. Besides Amazons to WW are not equal to Kryptonians to Superman because WW could interact with them because of them being alive. Giving them more importance.

I love the new Wonder Woman series the artwork is AMAZING!

What bugs me most about this is that Azzarello is burning too many bridges. His story just doesn't fit into a shared universe.

At some point, DC will want to reintroduce Donna Troy and Artemis. (They have to, if only to hold on to the trademarks.) Azzarello's Amazons don't fit at all for Donna, and not really for Artemis either.

We can say goodbye to stories involving a young Diana still on the island. Say goodbye to the Amazons being used to train inexperienced female heroes, such as in Superman/Batman: Supergirl. All of these stories become impossible after this run, unless somebody finds a way to restore both their humanity and their characters.

Wait, why are people mad at this again?

So the Amazon are amoral or sorta ambiguous in their morality. But so what?

Haven't they been portrayed like that before? Amazons attack and all. And they don't even allow men on their island.

So even if they're amoral, so what about? I mean The guardians are sorta evil now, so what? Its not like Wonder Woman is being defined by the amazons or people who brought her up. Its not like the amazon represents women.

Why is this a big deal?

@Dernman said:

@Maki_P said:

@Hawk80 said:

Previous WW's origin was based on Pandora (made from clay, gifts from gods, etc). Now she is another Hercules-like character (like 99.9% of mythological characters... percy jackson, perseus, etc...). Quite abused.

She wad interesting because her amazon heritage and qualities... now she is only another demigod, good only because Zeus' DNA...

New amazons (similar to mythological amazons) murdered men and male children for 3000 years, never evolving? It could be possible only if they were immortals! If so, why the babies?

And why WW was raised with completely different moral values???

Next reboot I want kryptonians to be an evil super-race who sent Kal-El on Earth to murder humanity. Like Saiyans. Or Bruce Wayne to be the son of Ras Al Ghul, being a vigilante as act of rebellion.

And don't forget Jonathan and Martha Kent run a black Market of babies they sell to rich childless couples (they kept Kal-El 'cause he was awesome)

This isn't a statement on the WW changes and I could be wrong but IIRC pre 52 during New Krypton and some Batman/Superman issues it was stated Krypton just before being destroyed was hostile and warlike to other planets. They was also a long standing war with the Durlan and now my memory is even fader here but all but wiped them out. There was also the Kryptonians that hated face to face contact with each other before that got retconned.

Again even though I like it it's not a statement on WW. Besides Amazons to WW are not equal to Kryptonians to Superman because WW could interact with them because of them being alive. Giving them more importance.

Yeah the kryptonians kinda wanted to decimate earth or something. They made all the kryptonians selfish and only cared for themselves. So its not like its that much a difference with this here.

Is wonderboy next?

@Lion_Heart22 said:

Ugh.

Double standards sicken me. These are people who go out into the world with the sole purpose of using another human being, maybe even raping them, killing them, and, if they happen to have a boy, trade him off into slavery. But you see, since these are women, it's ok. They are "brave and empowered", not sociopaths who can't feel emotion for any human being not their kind.

If this was a fictional society of men instead of a fictional society of women, people would reject the idea, there would even be aggressive, international media coverage, people would get fired and there would be public apologies.

So, applaud them, fine. It's fictional so of course it doesn't matter right? It only matters if its a woman in a fridge in a published drawing.

I kinda have to agree here.

Hells yeah :)

Ugh.

Double standards sicken me. These are people who go out into the world with the sole purpose of using another human being, maybe even raping them, killing them, and, if they happen to have a boy, trade him off into slavery. But you see, since these are women, it's ok. They are "brave and empowered", not sociopaths who can't feel emotion for any human being not their kind.

If this was a fictional society of men instead of a fictional society of women, people would reject the idea, there would even be aggressive, international media coverage, people would get fired and there would be public apologies.

So, applaud them, fine. It's fictional so of course it doesn't matter right? It only matters if its a woman in a fridge in a published drawing.

@Primmaster64: While the new direction is very consistent to actual Amazon mythology you are totally right and it is a double standard.

Considering the Winchesters are now a part of the DCU I wonder how Diana would react to Dean and vice verse since he was an intended victim of the Amazon re-population effort.

@Primmaster64: As of this year, yup. DC bought the rights from Wildstorm as of this year and are being blended into the DCnU, kinda like Constantine, they'll age naturally and be aware of the supers but not really interact with them. Now of course that could change...

@unbreakableburr said:

@Primmaster64: As of this year, yup. DC bought the rights from Wildstorm as of this year and are being blended into the DCnU, kinda like Constantine, they'll age naturally and be aware of the supers but not really interact with them. Now of course that could change...

Main DCU? God of war comics were published by Wildstorm but Kratos wasn't part of main Wildstorm universe.

@RyuHayabusa: Not God of War, Supernatural.

@Primmaster64: As far as I know, no. It's not come up either on the show or the comics, beyond more Greek and Roman gods showing up on Supernatural then before...

@unbreakableburr: Supernatural was part of main Wildstorm universe?

@RyuHayabusa: No, as far as I know they were not, just a one of the titles they did.

@unbreakableburr: That is what i was saying. They also did God of war but Kratos wasn't part of main Wildstorm universe.

@RyuHayabusa: Ahh gotcha.

They weren't suppose to be based so close to Greek mthylogical. The amazons were to be about love and kindness that why they sent Diana out.

Also Dc characters are now all like batman dark and hit. Diana was suppose to be different. Diana and the amazons were suppose to be different the amazons were a loving society .

@UsagiTsukino said:

They weren't suppose to be based so close to Greek mthylogical. The amazons were to be about love and kindness that why they sent Diana out.

I thought Diana was not allowed to leave Themyscira but she knew there was an impending trouble so she stole the lasso and bracelet and went out to join the justice league to defeat starro?

@Babs: it all depends,it can work,and be very good for her,make her mre important,but DC doesn't care about her,most writters treat her like a punching bag,never doing something relevant at the level of superman and batman,they never promote her,and they let all the street level characters humiliate her and her rogue gallery,and if all that will keep the same way,then there was no point in changing her story again.

The biggest problem with the new Amazons, from a story telling perspective, is that they never actually show Wonder Woman having to overcome the depravity of her culture.

Imagine if Terminator 2 began with the Terminator already knowing the value of human life and having compassion or imagine if Groundhog Day began with Phil being a considerate and humble person.

That's the problem that is introduced with this new take on the Amazons. If Wonder Woman grew up in that kind of a culture then there should be some signs of her being influenced by that culture and there should be an arc where she learns to overcome all those horrible traditions and maybe even help change the Amazons for the better. It makes no sense for her to just act like her culture had no influence on her, almost as if she was raised in a completely different society.

It sucks what happened to the Amazons! I hope they come back but overall I think it is better than before

I prefer this newer version, because I dont think it cancels out their overall origin, it just adds to, & includes the "real" stories of the Amazons. I mean, they should, but I dont really want to see, also have them cut off one of their boobs as well.

But I feel it includes the Bana version as well. I mean, TBH, in the thousands of years, none of the Island Amazons never turned evil & hated men? They are just immortal & do war games forever? Kinda boring. Plus, its like the Krypton Problem, these super powered people never try to expand their culture?

The only thing better would be if they had removed Diana from the New52, & had Artemis be WW again.

& hopefully we get Wonder Boy

Reboots are always good to find new customers and reboots can be done as often as every year. I don't believe Wonder Woman's origin really needs the amazons. If the amazons are included in the origin, the amazons need reboots to make the amazons interesting.

@Babs: What a brilliant and thoughtful argument. The best I´ve heard on this whole board (outside this debate, because some good points have been raised here in objection to the change), and it certainly gave me a new perspective. My problem with changing WW origin at this point in time is that it seems a bit premature, when there is still so much to explore, so much unwritten about the previous culture. If thought through the concept of the immortal amazons, and Diana being the only child of this warrior society was fertile ground for various interpretations that could have taken that whole mythology to very dark places. I´ll probably edit this comment later with some examples I´ve written. It just seems like the change was really unnecessary, hard to digest, and along with that the fact this is more of a soap opera than an adventure superhero story, all of these things together just means to me as a reader of her previous incarnations, especially Rucka and Simone and somewhat Perez, it just seems the New 52 became a wasted opportunity to build upon what these guys had done. If he had have respected their work, which it is true was far from perfect, but had some really really good stuff in it, I think, he could have made a darker, more grounded, more modern WW, but that still had those recognisable and unique parts of her mythology. I guess part of the problem is I really think this story is quite flat, I mean its a horror that isn´t in the slightest scary, like say The Walking Dead is; Its a Greek God drama, that seems more like Dallas than like Shakespeare or Homer, and its a superhero story without a real superhero vibe. Most of what is emotionally investing about the story is it shock value, as in what the hell are you doing to WW? That can´t be the basis of a story, shocking people into reading it. DC mustn´t be frightened of making changes or modernising a character, far from it, thats what these characters need, but they need to know, what is the right way to do this. Getting someone first of all who cares about the character, who trully loves her and gets why she is unique will be a start, and getting some graphic novels of WW out there, and events, is the strategy I think they desperately need to take.

Just an aside, in the innitial origin, The Amazons were guards to dooms doorway, maybe a horror type, greek mythology story could have been premised on them some how loosing control and everything spilling open. Not what I would do, but it seems there was an infinite amount of possibilities as to how to make WW a horror genre story; Azzerrello´s seemed a bit confusing and a boit radical, to a mythology that didn´t need fixing, just fleshing out and modernising, the way birth right did for superman.

@RazzaTazz: @The Mighty Monarch said:

@DarthShap said:

@RazzaTazz said:

@DarthShap: A slave lacks among other things freedom of choice. They had a choice here, and they made it

So what is the point? That you cannot free a slave? That is even worse! That was part of the South's argument during the American Civil War!

We have no indication of whether or not they are completely enslaved. Perhaps they ARE allowed to choose to leave if they want, perhaps they ARE allowed to see the surface and experience it to make their decision.

But we don't know. And neither did Wonder Woman. But they respect Hephaestus, and he appears to respect them back.

According to Reusseau @RazzaTazz said:

@DarthShap said:

@RazzaTazz said:

@DarthShap: A slave lacks among other things freedom of choice. They had a choice here, and they made it

So what is the point? That you cannot free a slave? That is even worse! That was part of the South's argument during the American Civil War!

My point of someone has the freedom of choice and they choose to remain what they are doing are they still slaves? I am not saying they are one way or another, just that's what I like about such stories, when they make a person think about more than lasers and capes.

According to reusseau a slave does not have the free choice to choose to be a slave, because in making that choice he´s already forfeited his agency, meaning he has no longer has any choices. As such if in any way you choose to relinquish your freedom, to government or any other institution, that choice is already considered void, because it was made by a person who wasn´t free to choose in the first place. It is a logical impossibility for someone to freely choose to remain a slave.

@RazzaTazz: No its a paradox that one of the enlightenment philosophers put forward about the legitimacy of giving ones freedom up to the state. He used slavery as an example, saying that if a slave signed a legal document to become a slave, that contract would immediately become nul and void, because in submitting your self entirely to the will of another you essentially no longer have the freedom to choose whether to become a slave or not. basically the formula is:

I am slave

slaves by definition have no choice

Therefore I can not choose to be a slave.

So if someone chooses to be a slave, remaining a slave, that choice was never there´s because only a free person can make a choice about there own agency. The decision is therefore nul-and-void.

@RazzaTazz: There decision is paradoxical, it also shows that slavery is always an immoral institution, there´s no way out of it, you can´t claim its interesting because they made a choice. The Amazons are inherently villains for for having sold their children into that institution and institution they themselves fight against being victims of.

I like the new origin. The fact that the Amazons hid it shows that they knew it was wrong, but that's how their society works. They don't like or trust men. It also explains why there are Black, Asian, and other non-white Amazons.

And the origin shows that the Amazons are human. They do good (raising Diana, writing poetry, doing medicine) and bad (killing, etc.) like every other society. The Amazons should not be perfect and neither should Diana. That makes things boring. This origin is also simpler than talking about dead souls and ****.

Johns and Azzarello's modern day Xena Wonder Woman is awesome!

I think all we need is really Wonder Woman and it is possible to reboot the origin to be simpler and erase the connections to the amazons but it is ok to use the amazons in stories since amazons are part of greek mythology.