I was never one to believe the hype

#1 Edited by jointron33 (1813 posts) - - Show Bio

WW writers, stop getting caught in the hype!!!!

Many ww writers feel intimidated because of her icon status, namely her feminist icon status. Do to this, we have several overcompensating stories of her as some paragon of women or whatever. They also say, "oh, it's such an iconic character, I don't know what to do". Thus, they'll use this excuse for when they either write crappy ww(or superman) tales or have to do another reinvention(coug jms cough).

Even if you hate his run, one thing you CAN NOT accuse Azzarello of is getting caught in the character's iconics status, so as to have to "humble the pompous princess" like crappy ww writers do(Geoff johns). Even elements of fan favorites Rucka and Simone's runs had some element of getting caught in the hype. This is one of the major deterrents in ww productions.

#2 Posted by lilben42 (2601 posts) - - Show Bio

@jointron33: I agree. A lot of writers focus too much on her icon status instead of just writing a great story about her but it's not just the writers, alot of fans believe that too.

#3 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@jointron33: azzarello hasn't been caught in the character's iconic statue because he took her iconic statu away,making her zeus daugther,taking away the amazons,her cast and villans,and giving her an ambiguous personality,johns has destroyed her character too.

#4 Posted by jointron33 (1813 posts) - - Show Bio

@lilben42: indeed. It's almost as bad as batgod

#5 Posted by PeppeyHare (4310 posts) - - Show Bio

@jointron33: azzarello hasn't been caught in the character's iconic statue because he took her iconic statu away,making her zeus daugther,taking away the amazons,her cast and villans,and giving her an ambiguous personality,johns has destroyed her character too.

Johns writes a bad WW. Azzarello has had a fantastic run on the book. Stop complaining because things are different

#6 Edited by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@peppeyhare: johns and azzarello suck,azz WW has an ambiguous personality,the story keeps runing in circles around the drama with the baby and there is no highlight moments in terms of fights and featas,the same story going on for 2 years,no action,no amazons,no cast,no villans from WW.

stop compliaining about me i complaining,a fan has all the right to complain,i've been following WW since i was 3,how about you?.

#7 Posted by lilben42 (2601 posts) - - Show Bio

@peppeyhare: Right. That's the problem with some Wonder Woman fans, they can't accept a few changes. And it's not even permanent so I don't see the need for complaints. Plus most of the complaints aren't even true.

#8 Posted by PeppeyHare (4310 posts) - - Show Bio

@peppeyhare: johns and azzarello suck,azz WW has an ambiguous personality,the story keeps runing in circles around the drama with the baby and there is no highlight moments in terms of fights and featas,the same story going on for 2 years,no action,no amazons,no cast,no villans from WW.

stop compliaining about me i complaining,a fan has all the right to complain,i've been following WW since i was 3,how about you?.

This is a new WW. So no you can't say "WELL WW HAS A AMBIGUOUS PERSONALITY AND BLAH BLAH". No obviously she doesn't. Why? Because Azzarello said so

#9 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@peppeyhare: he can say whatever he wants,his WW has an ambiguous personality,the story lacks dynamism,action and good feats,her supporting cast and villans are gone,almost 2 years and azzarello hasn't established many points about the character.

#10 Posted by judasnixon (7184 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm digging Azzarello's Wonder Woman run, but that's just me.......

#11 Posted by dmessmer (368 posts) - - Show Bio

WW writers, stop getting caught in the hype!!!!

Many ww writers feel intimidated because of her icon status, namely her feminist icon status. Do to this, we have several overcompensating stories of her as some paragon of women or whatever. They also say, "oh, it's such an iconic character, I don't know what to do". Thus, they'll use this excuse for when they either write crappy ww(or superman) tales or have to do another reinvention(coug jms cough).

Even if you hate his run, one thing you CAN NOT accuse Azzarello of is getting caught in the character's iconics status, so as to have to "humble the pompous princess" like crappy ww writers do(Geoff johns). Even elements of fan favorites Rucka and Simone's runs had some element of getting caught in the hype. This is one of the major deterrents in ww productions.

This is actually an interesting take on the situation. The more I think about it, I think that might be why the Perez run remains my favorite - one of the recurring themes of that run was that Wonder Woman herself was uncomfortable with her iconic status and thought it got in the way of her message.

It's interesting to consider that in terms of Azzarello's book. As I've said in numerous other threads, I like Azzarello's book, but I don't think it's a great Wonder Woman book. The first eleven issues were great and I think you might be on to something that the reason was that he didn't dwell on the iconic nature of the character. Since then, though, he hasn't really dwelled on any aspect of the character. He seems much more interested in Orion and Lennox than he does in Wonder Woman, iconic status or no. Avoiding her iconic status should give him opportunities to reveal interesting aspects of her character, but he isn't doing that, and that, I think, is the source of a lot of the frustration that Azzarello haters feel (I could be wrong - I don't consider myself an Azzarello "hater," though I am critical of everything after issue 11).

#12 Posted by Markies (89 posts) - - Show Bio

I love Azzarello's run. Though i have to get used to his depiction of the gods though

#13 Posted by TAneT62 (1071 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, I actually like the new Wonder Woman, she's more brash and violent, more unforgiving, more warrior like than anything ... Wasn't that her upbringing? To be a warrior despite everyone's differences? Of course she's not the same as she use to be, Pre-52, less caring, etc. But ... What do you expect from a warrior born woman?

I miss the caring aspect, the reasoning, her original origin ... I really do hate Zeus being the dad, that pretty much ruined the books for me, her bloody origin ... But, despite her differences, she's going to have to learn and guide her personality. ;]

#14 Posted by toplel (988 posts) - - Show Bio

@tanet62: You could say that about the rest of the Amazons, but Diana herself was always an oddball among them and despite her warrior training, she was always loving and compassionate. Take that away and you're taking away greatly from the character.

#15 Posted by TAneT62 (1071 posts) - - Show Bio

@toplel: And yet, she is still a warrior.

She is still compassionate, just not to the extent of Pre-52 Diana ... All I'm saying is wait, she'll grow.

#16 Posted by batmannflash (6226 posts) - - Show Bio

I love Azzarello's run, despite what others may think. It's an interesting and new take

#17 Posted by toplel (988 posts) - - Show Bio

@tanet62: She is quite a bitch in JL; easily irritated and getting into everyone's face. As for growth, Im not too sure. Too many writers who cant write her properly turn her into a generic hardass warrior woman, completely ignoring her compassionate and loving qualities. Shes supposed to fight for us because she loves us; right now it seems like shes just doing it to stab shit.

#18 Edited by TAneT62 (1071 posts) - - Show Bio

@toplel said:

@tanet62: She is quite a bitch in JL; easily irritated and getting into everyone's face. As for growth, Im not too sure. Too many writers who cant write her properly turn her into a generic hardass warrior woman, completely ignoring her compassionate and loving qualities. Shes supposed to fight for us because she loves us; right now it seems like shes just doing it to stab shit.

She is not a bitch, she is none of those things ... Just because she doesn't have the aura of Superman, personality wise, doesn't make her any of these negative things, if anything, she's more interesting.

Again, she is a warrior, born and raised, she is completely different from any of the other heroes, and her new origin? That's another reason she is as she is.

And I mean grow as in learning ... She won't always be like this.

#19 Posted by toplel (988 posts) - - Show Bio

@tanet62: Hal was being helpful but she kicked his ass because he wanted to help her. She put innocent lives in danger; she later gets on Batmans face when he says they made a mistake interfering in Kahndaq. Johns is messing up her character and I doubt hes going to change. Azz's version is way better.

#20 Posted by TAneT62 (1071 posts) - - Show Bio

@toplel: Well then, you either like her or you don't.

Me? I love the new one, not as much as the old, but still.

#21 Posted by toplel (988 posts) - - Show Bio

@tanet62: I kinda like her in her own title (and in Batwoman), but not in JL.

#22 Posted by Lvenger (21201 posts) - - Show Bio

People are focusing on the flaws of Azzarello's run when it's Johns who is more responsible for butchering the character.

#23 Posted by dmessmer (368 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

People are focusing on the flaws of Azzarello's run when it's Johns who is more responsible for butchering the character.

I agree. I'm so so on the Azzarello run. I loved the first 11 issues, though I'm not crazy about the Amazon rape/murder thing. I wish the more recent issues would move along a bit faster and focus less on Orion, but I still enjoy them and look forward to them every month.

But Johns has just been terrible. At a time when DC should be trying to prep its characters for a Justice League movie, he's doing serious damage to the character.

#24 Edited by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (803 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior said:

@jointron33: azzarello hasn't been caught in the character's iconic statue because he took her iconic statu away,making her zeus daugther,taking away the amazons,her cast and villans,and giving her an ambiguous personality,johns has destroyed her character too.

Johns writes a bad WW. Azzarello has had a fantastic run on the book. Stop complaining because things are different

It's not the fact that things are "different", it's the fact that Wonder Woman's mythos have been twisted and perverted that has us pissed off!

#25 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio
#26 Posted by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (803 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer said:

@lvenger said:

People are focusing on the flaws of Azzarello's run when it's Johns who is more responsible for butchering the character.

I agree. I'm so so on the Azzarello run. I loved the first 11 issues, though I'm not crazy about the Amazon rape/murder thing. I wish the more recent issues would move along a bit faster and focus less on Orion, but I still enjoy them and look forward to them every month.

But Johns has just been terrible. At a time when DC should be trying to prep its characters for a Justice League movie, he's doing serious damage to the character.

John's has no idea what he's doing, he's making the common mistakes writers unfamiliar with Wonder Woman have made in the past. Azzarello is far more insidious and unforgivable. He knows he's destroying Wonder Woman and simply doesn't care - as long as his fans find his run enjoyable. When he's gone, they will be too and someone else will have to sweep up his ungodly, avant-garbage.

#27 Edited by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@scorpio_cassadine:true,jhons at least has an excuse,he doesn't know shit about her and in a book where he has to writte 7 characters it's easy to writte her as the typical headstrong warrior than going deeper into the true core of the character,but azzarello knows wonder woman better,and he doesn't give a shit about destroying her roots.

#28 Posted by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (803 posts) - - Show Bio

^ Agreed!

#29 Edited by Lvenger (21201 posts) - - Show Bio

@scorpio_cassadine: I take offense to you calling one of the most well written, consistently best books of the New 52 garbage. If it's not to your taste, fine but it's far from garbage, I can assure you of that. It wouldn't be getting good reviews or positive feedback if it was so called 'garbage.' Azzarello isn't destroying Wonder Woman at all, nor is he twisting or perverting things nearly as much as you claim. JMS did far more damage to Wonder Woman in his run. Hell, Perez destroyed Wonder Woman's golden age/silver age roots to an extent yet he produced one of the best origin stories and one of the best Wonder Woman runs ever.

#30 Posted by jointron33 (1813 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: good. Golden age/silver Ae ww sucked

#31 Edited by PowerWoman (3576 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Pre-52 ww>New 52 ww> Golden age/silver Ae ww

#32 Posted by Lvenger (21201 posts) - - Show Bio

@powerwoman: @jointron33: Well then I'm baffled as to how much this change can affect you when you welcome the other form of change I cited.

#33 Posted by dmessmer (368 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Pre-52 ww>New 52 ww> Golden age/silver Ae ww

How can you rank Golden Age Wonder Woman so low? Come on, she fights with Nazis over the nation's milk supply and uses her astral body to visit Mars. How is that not awesome!

In all seriousness, I find the Golden Age stuff charming (not just Wonder Woman - all Golden Age stuff), and it has to be read with an understanding of the circumstances. Regardless, it's the origin of the character and deserves some respect.

#34 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23238 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@scorpio_cassadine: I take offense to you calling one of the most well written, consistently best books of the New 52 garbage. If it's not to your taste, fine but it's far from garbage, I can assure you of that. It wouldn't be getting good reviews or positive feedback if it was so called 'garbage.' Azzarello isn't destroying Wonder Woman at all, nor is he twisting or perverting things nearly as much as you claim. JMS did far more damage to Wonder Woman in his run. Hell, Perez destroyed Wonder Woman's golden age/silver age roots to an extent yet he produced one of the best origin stories and one of the best Wonder Woman runs ever.

Justice League gets good reviews and positive feedback.

Superior Spider-Man gets good reviews and positive feedback (from reviewers)

Bendis' X-Men gets good reviews and positive feedback

Snyder's Batman gets good reviews and positive feedback

That's not a good point to hang your hat on :P

#35 Posted by Lvenger (21201 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt: Point. I shouldn't have relied on the sometimes questionable nature of reviewers. But there are good things the critics of Azzarello's run overlook and flat out ignore on here. That's something I can hang my hat on :P

#36 Edited by WhineHaus (95 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I agree with you. That's how I view a lot of the rhetoric against the New 52 Wonder Woman.

I am a literary person, so I absolutely love a good story. Azzarello is an awesome storyteller, and I find Diana's new origin more compelling, more attractive than before. It takes balls to take chances the way Azzarello has, and I respect him for that. I actually don't mind John's take on Wonder Woman either.

I've always loved Wonder Woman, yet found it difficult to jump into her comics due to the heavy backstory. It was like I was always missing something, and the New 52 gave me the opportunity to start fresh. So for that, I am very thankful.

#37 Posted by jointron33 (1813 posts) - - Show Bio

Did he just question the quality of Snyder Batman?

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