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    Wonder Woman

    Character » Wonder Woman appears in 8717 issues.

    The Amazon princess, blessed with god-like super abilities, Wonder Woman is one of Earth's most powerful defenders of peace, justice, and equality and a member of the Justice League. She is considered an archetype for many heroines outside of comic book. Her initial origin depicted her as a clay baby brought to life by patron goddess Aphrodite, but in recent years she has been depicted as the daughter of Zeus and Amazon queen Hippolyta.

    How Powerful is New52 Wonderwoman?

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    Avatar image for unbreakable_fs4
    unbreakable_fs4

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    @csg_cl said:

    @unbreakable_fs4 said:

    @csg_cl said:

    @unbreakable_fs4 said:

    @csg_cl said:

    @unbreakable_fs4 said:

    @csg_cl: It's not that people nitpick with WW, it's that most times the high-tier individuals she's put up against on this site are superior physically to her. If you've been browsing the battle forums lately, you'll know that a majority give WW the edge over powerful foes like Thor mainly due to speed, skill, and her weaponry. Some even believe she can beat the Avengers single handedly. WW is not underestimated on this site.

    Now regarding your other point

    point being she wasn't her normal self and would be easier to fight

    Yes, she wasn't her normal self....cause she was morals off due to the box. She was far more dangerous because she was willing to kill to obtain the box.

    and I'd call her more reckless and less controlled ... thus a less effective fighter. Like any sport you're trained to contain your emotions so that they do not make you sloppy.

    This is completely untrue. When she fought Artemis, and took her bracelets off, she became morals off and fought brutally but still fought with skill

    in that situation she was not "morals off, or bloodlusted" she was in control of herself, calm or cold even. She lost to FB when she was enraged and threw off her bracelets though.

    Then can you explain to me why she kept on attacking even after Artemis was knocked out? She had to be called out to stop. How is this not morals off?

    No Caption Provided

    She's not acting like an enraged Hulk here, she's using actual martial arts, speed and strength to overcome an opponent. She's obviously in control of herself, even if she does take a few extra hits ... see it all the time in MMA, that's why there are referees to stop fights.

    Well yeah, she's using skill. Isn't that what I said here...

    This is completely untrue. When she fought Artemis, and took her bracelets off, she became morals off and fought brutally but still fought with skill

    Because one becomes brutal and has no regard for a person's life does not mean they suddenly lose their ability to fight rationally

    I asked you to explain why she kept on attacking Artemis even after she was KO'ed. I'm still waiting for an answer, since you claim she had morals after removing the bracelets

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    ArchiZoom

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    @frozen: Wonder Woman didn't attack him, on the contrary, she stood there and didn't do anything.

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    MPfly88

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    The skill issue again? If anything, she looks 100x stronger than Zod and Faora.

    If we're going by the Aquaman example, Wonder Woman is stronger than Superman if we're going by the Doomsday logic.

    u wot?

    Also I didn't read the comic yet so my mistake for saying it's around 20 times bigger than Earth. If it is indeed 100x bigger and flying at 36,000 KPH, then holy shnikies. This definitely surpasses his benching of Earth for 6 days.

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    CSG_CL

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    @frozen said:

    @csg_cl: Feats matter. Trying to skip around that won't do your argument any good.

    Okay ... whatever ... you choose the feats that count and the ones that don't ... I didn't realize that it super-special-magic-sundipping was a whole new level of sundipping. Feats are moments in time, nothing more. One day SM moves a planet, the next he struggles to lift an aircraft carrier ... they are artistic devices not scientific. I love them as much as the next reader, but they can be undone as quickly as they are done. SBPrime shook all of reality with a punch, technically he's vastly stronger than SM based on this alone.

    • Getting amped by the God of The Sun is a super-special amp. He's the god of The Sun.....
    • Feats are not merely a momment of time. They are accomplishments which are a testament to one's ability
    • He did not struggle to lift an aircraft carrier, had he exerted too much force, the weak metal would have snapped
    • Superboy Prime IS stronger than Superman. He has manhandled Superman twice and towed thousands of planets at super-speeds

    Skipping around feats does not work. And Superman's latest feat in AC 34 certainly solidifies him as stronger, as does MMH.

    no, they matter to you ... to a writer or anyone who doesn't care they are meaningless fluff that adds some fun action to a comic.

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    frozen

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    #105 frozen  Moderator

    @csg_cl: They matter to my point --- Superman >>> most other Kryptonians aside from H'el.

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    CSG_CL

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    @csg_cl said:

    @unbreakable_fs4 said:

    @csg_cl said:

    @unbreakable_fs4 said:

    @csg_cl said:

    @unbreakable_fs4 said:

    @csg_cl: It's not that people nitpick with WW, it's that most times the high-tier individuals she's put up against on this site are superior physically to her. If you've been browsing the battle forums lately, you'll know that a majority give WW the edge over powerful foes like Thor mainly due to speed, skill, and her weaponry. Some even believe she can beat the Avengers single handedly. WW is not underestimated on this site.

    Now regarding your other point

    point being she wasn't her normal self and would be easier to fight

    Yes, she wasn't her normal self....cause she was morals off due to the box. She was far more dangerous because she was willing to kill to obtain the box.

    and I'd call her more reckless and less controlled ... thus a less effective fighter. Like any sport you're trained to contain your emotions so that they do not make you sloppy.

    This is completely untrue. When she fought Artemis, and took her bracelets off, she became morals off and fought brutally but still fought with skill

    in that situation she was not "morals off, or bloodlusted" she was in control of herself, calm or cold even. She lost to FB when she was enraged and threw off her bracelets though.

    Then can you explain to me why she kept on attacking even after Artemis was knocked out? She had to be called out to stop. How is this not morals off?

    No Caption Provided

    She's not acting like an enraged Hulk here, she's using actual martial arts, speed and strength to overcome an opponent. She's obviously in control of herself, even if she does take a few extra hits ... see it all the time in MMA, that's why there are referees to stop fights.

    Well yeah, she's using skill. Isn't that what I said here...

    This is completely untrue. When she fought Artemis, and took her bracelets off, she became morals off and fought brutally but still fought with skill

    Because one becomes brutal and has no regard for a person's life does not mean they suddenly lose their ability to fight rationally

    I asked you to explain why she kept on attacking Artemis even after she was KO'ed. I'm still waiting for an answer, since you claim she had morals after removing the bracelets

    becoming emotional affects performance ... anger affects how you think and react. Why do you think Ali talked so much trash before a fight? Smack talk is one of the oldest tricks in the books ... get under your opponents skin (it's what Faora was attempting with Diana too). An emotional opponent is a weaker opponent end of story.

    Because she was going to kill her opponent. Apollo stopped her from it. This is not a difficult thing to see, it also doesn't mean she was enraged or not thinking clearly. She was looking at it as the only way to stop Moon. Being willing to kill and being out of control are not the same thing.

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    unbreakable_fs4

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    @csg_cl:

    becoming emotional affects performance ... anger affects how you think and react. Why do you think Ali talked so much trash before a fight? Smack talk is one of the oldest tricks in the books ... get under your opponents skin (it's what Faora was attempting with Diana too). An emotional opponent is a weaker opponent end of story.

    Because she was going to kill her opponent. Apollo stopped her from it. This is not a difficult thing to see, it also doesn't mean she was enraged or not thinking clearly. She was looking at it as the only way to stop Moon. Being willing to kill and being out of control are not the same thing.

    It's almost like you didn't even read what I said.

    I didn't even say her skill was dampened. I didn't even say she was enraged. I said she was morals off. It means she is willing to kill, that is what I said.

    Even now you just said she was going to kill her opponent. Hmmm...I wonder why....Maybe it's cause she's morals off and has little regard if her opponent lives or dies. which is what I have been saying since.

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    CSG_CL

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    @csg_cl:

    becoming emotional affects performance ... anger affects how you think and react. Why do you think Ali talked so much trash before a fight? Smack talk is one of the oldest tricks in the books ... get under your opponents skin (it's what Faora was attempting with Diana too). An emotional opponent is a weaker opponent end of story.

    Because she was going to kill her opponent. Apollo stopped her from it. This is not a difficult thing to see, it also doesn't mean she was enraged or not thinking clearly. She was looking at it as the only way to stop Moon. Being willing to kill and being out of control are not the same thing.

    It's almost like you didn't even read what I said.

    I didn't even say her skill was dampened. I didn't even say she was enraged. I said she was morals off. It means she is willing to kill, that is what I said.

    Even now you just said she was going to kill her opponent. Hmmm...I wonder why....Maybe it's cause she's morals off and has little regard if her opponent lives or dies. which is what I have been saying since.

    I understand what you are saying. I'm telling you that this is different than being mind fuzzed and somewhat out of control under the influence of Pandora's Box, the instance where her skill WAS dampened. Being coldly capable of killing an opponent does automatically mean morals off either ... it's a decision she made for the "greater good" not some external force messing with her mind. Morals off would show her enjoying the act or making the decision frivolously. She's not acting in any way the "villain" in her fight with Artemis, she's doing what she feels she must.

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    CSG_CL

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    @frozen said:

    @csg_cl: They matter to my point --- Superman >>> most other Kryptonians aside from H'el.

    No they really don't. I don't need some meaningless action sequence to tell me Superman is the greatest hero in the world. He was the first, he is the inspiration to all the other heroes he is the reason the JL exists ... power levels or 1-on-1 match-ups are irrelevant to who his IS and what he stands FOR ... feats are simply an illustration of him doing something heroic, is he less heroic when he stops a bullet from killing an old woman than when he pushes a planet-sized spaceship out of orbit? Another hero could easily possess greater strength or be faster or smarter or have better heat-vision, but none of that matters ... he's Superman that's all that's really necessary.

    SM's feats tell us absolutely nothing about what other Kryptonians are capable of doing when sundipped and infected by DD virus.

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    CaptainMarvel4Ever

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    I'd say she could defiantly beat everyone on that list.

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    frozen

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    #111  Edited By frozen  Moderator

    @csg_cl: Nope. We've been over this before --- if you want to prove other Kryptonians are better than him or on par, they need feats to prove it. Semantics won't help you prove your case.

    Superman's feats tell us what HE'S capable of. For other Kryptonians to be on par with him, they need to prove it.

    Aside from H'el, Superman >>>>>>>>>>>>> other Kryptonians. And there is considerable proof for it.

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    CSG_CL

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    #112  Edited By CSG_CL

    @frozen said:

    @csg_cl: Nope. We've been over this before --- if you want to prove other Kryptonians are better than him or on par, they need feats to prove it.

    ou keep saying that, but the burden of proof is on you for making the claim that he is more powerful, his individual feats only prove what he is capable of, not what another is incapable of. By definition his powers come because he is a Kryptonian exposed to a yellow sun. All Kryptonians have the same power under the same yellow sun ... certainly there will be small variations based on the specific genetic makeup of an individual, but it's not going to be extreme unless you are postulating that SM is a mutant Kryptonian (please prove this if that is your contention) ... thus any feat we have seen SM accomplish is feasible for any Kryptonian put in the same set of circumstances (i.e. sundipped or exposed to the sun for the same amount of time etc...).

    It's pretty clear that Zod is at least his equal

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    CSG_CL

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    @csg_cl said:

    @fallschirmjager said:

    Wasn't even that debatable prior to today. Certainly not after today.

    Being a Kryptonian has never and will never make you equal to Superman. Just like being an Amazon doesn't make you equal to Wonder Woman (or being a demigod if you prefer). Being a Martian doesn't make you equal to MMH...(I could keep going, but you get the point)

    WW being equal to a Kryptonian means nothing. Especially being equal to Supergirl who is vastly inferior to Superman.

    Not like raw strength is all that important anyway (except for fan wanking). WW has better combat skills than almost any class 100, be happy that she's unique in that regard. Being unique>>>being the strongest dude. There's always someone stronger. (Not to mention badass weaponry and equipment)

    Not really ... being a Kryptonian is a biological fact. They all have the same basic abilities and metabolize sunlight into raw power. It's certainly likely that SM will be more powerful than some Kryptonians, but unless he's also some form of Kryptonian mutant he's not going to be significantly more powerful than any other Kryptonian.

    It's a bit different for WW as she's multiple things at once. Amazon's base level strength appears to be higher than a normal human, and she's the daughter of Zeus who as assumed the mantle of God of War ... there are wild cards in here that make her completely unique as an individual. Her powers are from a specific combination of her background and thus cannot be compared to another Amazon or even other Gods/Demigods. And she's become more powerful in a significant way since her statements to SG about being "closely matched"

    I agree with you however that raw strength is not the important ... her uniqueness is far more interesting that her ability to lift some heavy object. I keep saying what really sets SM apart from her is his superior level of invulnerability. He stands up and beats guys like Doomsday because he's nearly impossible to actually damage ... she doesn't stand up to the level of punishment he can take and that changes the power dynamic in a significant way when faced with a mindless killing machine like DD

    Yes really. They are not main characters, they will never be able to do what he does. Its frankly as simple as that.

    You trying to arguing it from a scientific perspective is irrelevant. And even if you wanted to, Superman has been exposed to yellow sun radiation for decades longer than any of the Kryptonian's who've appeared in the New 52 (save Hel, who is a product of blue Radiation? I didn't read the story and don't care about him)

    Shall I keep going?

    Being an Asgardian, doesn't make you equal to Thor. Being a Green Lantern, doesn't make you equal to Hal Jordan. Being an Atlantean doesn't make you equal to Aquaman. Being a irridated-hulk monster doesn't make you equal to Hulk.

    Hell, being a human doesn't make you equal to Batman.

    One writer even compared Superman to Supergirl like comparing a 29 year old man to a 16 year old girl. Mentioning the two in the same sentence is absurd.

    I'm not even going to address the DD comment because for some reason people on this forum keep wanting to overstate what actually happened. And I realize no one is ever going to be happy until WW is solostomping COIE Anti-Moniter.

    WW is badass and cool. Who the hell cares if she's as strong as Superman or if she isn't? She's strong enough and her greatest strength has nothing to do with her physical strength. No good character's greatest trait is how much weight they can bench.

    oddly enough I think we aren't that far off on how we think. I don't much care how powerful an individual really is ... I'm much more interested in a good story than a series of action sequences with little else.

    But let's explore the "science" angle

    1. Batman is supposedly the absolute top of what a human can be ... something he trained for years to become. His strength is only partially a product of his DNA. Without the intense training he would be a basically average human. BUT theoretically another human male could still become his equal because he is not beyond the range of what is actually human.

    2. The same premise is true of SM ... he's never stated to be something more than a Kryptonian. Any Kryptonian exposed to the same amount of yellow sun as SM should be roughly equal to SM. Zod was clearly on equal footing. SG, not as much, but she's a teenager, however, in raw power even she's not so far below him as to be mistaken for something other than a Kryptonian. Also it is also clear that the Kryptonian body can only hold so much energy at a given time, we know this because the effects of sun dipping wear off after time and physical exertion ... it does not set a whole new cap to the amount of energy SM normally carries around, or at least not significantly enough to be remarked upon. Thus Kryptonians have a base level of power where they start to work off the buildup of energy in their bodies at the same rate as they store it, otherwise sundipping would have no effect. Clark could potentially have a higher threshold, but again, that's totally unproven.

    3. Gods and Demigods differ in this nature because they each seem to be relatively unique. Strife is not a powerhouse, but she's clearly a powerful god. Apollo is clearly stronger than Eros ... Ares power levels look to have fluctuated based on his emotional state. Lennox and Shiraka and Cassandra each had unique singular gifts and each had different physical attributes.

    Anyway ... I agree that WW is a badass just as she is and it's rather irrelevant if she can bench press a planet or not to her character.

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    frozen

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    #114  Edited By frozen  Moderator

    @csg_cl: Again, read the comic - not only did Superman not want to fight but Zod was amped in the second fight, even prior to the super amp given by Apollo {hence Apollo saying ''it's taking too long}.

    It's the burden of you to prove Kryptonians can do what he can do - being a Kryptonian does not give you Superman's feats. Tag Superman experts if you wish, @lvenger, they will concur that Superman is more powerful than other Kryptonians.

    They have the same powerset. They do NOT have the same degree of strength, speed, etc. No feat that Superman accomplishes is feasible for another Kryptonian to do by the sole virture of being a Kryptonian, by your logic, Black Adam or Shazam can do this because they are Gods.

    Nobody is going to take your argument seriously if you haven't a shred of evidence for it, in addition to that, much evidence is against you.

    You need actual feats to suggest other Kryptonians can do what he can do. If Superman moves a planet, you cannot reliably say another featless Kryptonian can do the same.

    The reason Superman is far above other Kryptonians is because of FEATS - It proves what HE can do, if other Kryptonians have not shown the same capability going by FEATS, they are not at his level. To deny this is to deny fact.

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    CSG_CL

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    @frozen said:

    @csg_cl: Again, read the comic - not only did Superman not want to fight but Zod was amped in the second fight, even prior to the super amp given by Apollo {hence Apollo saying ''it's taking too long}.

    It's the burden of you to prove Kryptonians can do what he can do - being a Kryptonian does not give you Superman's feats. Tag Superman experts if you wish, @lvenger, they will concur that Superman is more powerful than other Kryptonians.

    They have the same powerset. They do NOT have the same degree of strength, speed, etc. No feat that Superman accomplishes is feasible for another Kryptonian to do by the sole virture of being a Kryptonian, by your logic, Black Adam or Shazam can do this because they are Gods.

    Nobody is going to take your argument seriously if you haven't a shred of evidence for it, in addition to that, much evidence is against you.

    You need actual feats to suggest other Kryptonians can do what he can do. If Superman moves a planet, you cannot reliably say another featless Kryptonian can do the same.

    The reason Superman is far above other Kryptonians is because of FEATS - It proves what HE can do, if other Kryptonians have not shown the same capability going by FEATS, they are not at his level. To deny this is to deny fact.

    This is tedious, your interpretation is dandy. But it convinces me of nothing. Feats are a pointless litmus test for proving anything as any writer at any comic company will tell you ... I don't refute that SM has accomplished feats that show he is a big strong super hero. I patently disagree with the premise that his feats have any bearing whatsoever on any other character unless the same feat actually shows the other character as unable to perform the feat.

    Superman is the equivalent to a base line human in Kryptonian terms ... i.e. he isn't a Kryptonian god or a Kryptonian meta-human ... he's a normal Kryptonian. If none of them were under a yellow sun they would essentially be the same state as a human and this conversation would be even more useless. He has more feats because he's the star of the DC Universe. SG is a bit player, the rest are villains ... of course they don't end up moving planet-ships to save the world, they are the one's trying to kill it. But it is completely logical to assume that under the same set of circumstances any Kryptonian will have the same base-level power as SM. Some will be stronger, others weaker ... some might have better visions others may be less invulnerable, but they are all going to fall within the same baseline norms. If there were 1,000,000 Kryptonians there would be some level of genetic variation between them, but the fact is there are like 5 and they are all pretty much from the same genetic background ... the WASP version of Krypton.

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    frozen

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    #116  Edited By frozen  Moderator

    @csg_cl:

    Feats are a pointless litmus test for proving anything as any writer at any comic company will tell you .

    Yeah, it's pretty much pointless arguing with you by this point. You have simply ignored my argument for some time now.

    You are taking your own interpretation and ignoring evidence which counters your view {that Superman, aside from H'el is the most powerful Kryptonian based on evidence, evidence is what people use, even in real life}, several others have attempted to tell you the same. Your viewpoint is conjecture, it lacks an empirical base. You are making up feats for other characters to suit your own argument.

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    CSG_CL

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    @frozen: not ignoring your argument. I simply disagree with how you interpret the value of feats and how they can be applied within the context of a fictional universe. As I've said a number of times it's your interpretation ... But it's not mine.

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    linkjt

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    @frozen: Thor is being hurt and struggling with things below planetary level in 99% of the stories he appears in,by consistent feats,pre 52 WW and Thor are in the same strength and durability class,unless you pick up a certain issue where a writer made Thor or WW take a planetary attack that is without a doubt not the usual durability level that most writers give to this characters in 99% of their stories,so it'd be nice if you stopped using so much ABC logic and stop picking up just the few high end feats from characters,high end feat that don't fit in when compared to the rest of the feats catalogue of the characters.

    sorry to bust your bubble but for every one of the few high end feats from new 52 Superman,he will be struggleing with pyramids and city size asteroids in other 15 appearances,and when he fights WW,Shazam,Orion,etc,you will see them making him bleed and putting damage on him even though he is supposed to be so much above them based on show off feats,you should know by now how it works,Superman ussually gets better show off feats than most characters,but that never stops the other characters from giving him a fight and causing damage even though according to your logic with his show off feats,he shouldn't be hurt by them at all.

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    CSG_CL

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    Pokeysteve

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    @frozen said:

    @pokeysteve: I've not seen anything to suggest she can tank Thor's planetary attacks.

    I haven't seen anything to suggest he could hit her with one.

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    Lvenger

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    I suppose I should take responsibility for starting the whole "New 52 Wonder Woman definitely isn't as powerful as Superman or MMH" trend now though the feats do speak for themselves. Something people aren't paying attention to on this thread with more relevance than it properly deserves.

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    frozen

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    #122 frozen  Moderator

    @frozen said:

    @pokeysteve: I've not seen anything to suggest she can tank Thor's planetary attacks.

    I haven't seen anything to suggest he could hit her with one.

    I have. She lacks speed feats.

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    #123  Edited By frozen  Moderator

    @linkjt: Me, Lvenger and Dondave went over all of this with you. Characters do not have to show 99% consistency in all of their appearances. Superman's feats are valid.

    @lvenger said:

    I suppose I should take responsibility for starting the whole "New 52 Wonder Woman definitely isn't as powerful as Superman or MMH" trend now though the feats do speak for themselves. Something people aren't paying attention to on this thread with more relevance than it properly deserves.

    I don't think so.

    But people are in serious denial if they believe the following.

    • Wonder Woman's strength is on par with New-52 Superman or MMH
    • Other Kryptonians are on Superman's level for the sole virture of being Kryptonian

    Honestly, it's undeniable after AC 34 that both are more powerful than WW.

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    Pokeysteve

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    @frozen said:

    @pokeysteve said:

    @frozen said:

    @pokeysteve: I've not seen anything to suggest she can tank Thor's planetary attacks.

    I haven't seen anything to suggest he could hit her with one.

    I have. She lacks speed feats.

    She wrecked Supergirl who was keeping up with Flash. She handled two Kryptonians. Thor is the one that lacks speed feats.

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    Madflavor

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    @lvenger said:

    I suppose I should take responsibility for starting the whole "New 52 Wonder Woman definitely isn't as powerful as Superman or MMH" trend now though the feats do speak for themselves. Something people aren't paying attention to on this thread with more relevance than it properly deserves.

    It is what it is though. You can't blame yourself for how WW fans are gonna take it.

    @frozen said:

    @pokeysteve said:

    @frozen said:

    @pokeysteve: I've not seen anything to suggest she can tank Thor's planetary attacks.

    I haven't seen anything to suggest he could hit her with one.

    I have. She lacks speed feats.

    She wrecked Supergirl who was keeping up with Flash. She handled two Kryptonians. Thor is the one that lacks speed feats.

    That said, it's a bit cocky to suggest Thor can't tag Wonder Woman.

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    #126  Edited By frozen  Moderator

    @pokeysteve said:

    @frozen said:

    @pokeysteve said:

    @frozen said:

    @pokeysteve: I've not seen anything to suggest she can tank Thor's planetary attacks.

    I haven't seen anything to suggest he could hit her with one.

    I have. She lacks speed feats.

    She wrecked Supergirl who was keeping up with Flash. She handled two Kryptonians. Thor is the one that lacks speed feats.

    Supergirl kept up with a tired Flash that held back. She then stated herself her speed was similar to Supergirl's, who in turn lacks speed feats and only has one which has massive context, in addition to this Supergirl got wrecked by a Superman clone who utilized no more speed than typical bull-rushes. The Kryptonians she handled were beating on a Superman that did not want to fight. That said, he can tag her with Mjolnir.

    Thor would wreck Supergirl, pre-52 or new-52.

    Having an ounce of super-speed does not give you a win over Thor. She needs several, consistent, on-panel quantifiable speed feats.

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    #127 frozen  Moderator

    @madflavor:

    it's a bit cocky to suggest Thor can't tag Wonder Woman.

    It's illogical. She has no feats in the 3 years she's had in the New-52 which suggest she can beat Thor.

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    Due to my recent calculations, I have deduced that Wonder Woman is 7,105,293x more powerful than a wet carrot.

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    That said, it's a bit cocky to suggest Thor can't tag Wonder Woman.

    It's not unrealistic. He doesn't regularly fight people of her power set. Assuming he could though, he'll never land one of these planetary level attacks that Frozen mentioned and that's what I'm talking about here.

    @frozen said:

    Supergirl kept up with a tired Flash that held back. She then stated herself her speed was similar to Supergirl's, who in turn lacks speed feats and only has one which has massive context, in addition to this Supergirl got wrecked by a Superman clone who utilized no more speed than typical bull-rushes. The Kryptonians she handled were beating on a Superman that did not want to fight. That said, he can tag her with Mjolnir.

    Thor would wreck Supergirl, pre-52 or new-52.

    Having an ounce of super-speed does not give you a win over Thor. She needs several, consistent, on-panel quantifiable speed feats.

    Flash holding back doesn't mean he suddenly allows people to hit him. He's not holding back his defense. She was fast enough to hit him. Supergirl also managed to blitz punch Clark during their first meeting. The clone incident was the writers way of showing you Superman's superiority in stats. Superman rarely wants to fight anyone. It's the Flash argument all over again.

    Arguable.

    You're right it doesn't. Her feats are great enough to know it's above anything Thor is capable of. Her skill set is also way above his. It's not just her speed that gives her a win over him. Same could be said for Supergirl.

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    Due to my recent calculations, I have deduced that Wonder Woman is 7,105,293x more powerful than a wet carrot.

    and in the DCU a wet carrot can bench 100x the mass of the sun whenever a writer decides that's critical to tell their story :)

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    #131  Edited By frozen  Moderator

    @pokeysteve:

    Flash holding back doesn't mean he suddenly allows people to hit him. He's not holding back his defense. She was fast enough to hit him. Supergirl also managed to blitz punch Clark during their first meeting. The clone incident was the writers way of showing you Superman's superiority in stats. Superman rarely wants to fight anyone. It's the Flash argument all over again.

    Arguable.

    You're right it doesn't. Her feats are great enough to know it's above anything Thor is capable of. Her skill set is also way above his. It's not just her speed that gives her a win over him. Same could be said for Supergirl.

    • Flash being tired and stating he's not at 100% because he's tired however clearly tells you he was not at his peak
    • He is holding back his defence. There are a dozen examples of characters getting hit while holding back. You can't hold back and then exert your full ability, to truly dodge, react, etc you must hold back less. He wanted to talk to her, not fight. You can't talk to someone while expecting to dodge everything, that makes no sense
    • The clone fight showed he was far superior in stats. She got bull-rushed
    • Based on feats? Not really
    • Her feats aren't really great thus far, they're unquantifable and undefined. Thor's destroyed planets, fought powerhouses far more powerful than Wonder Woman and has much better durability feats than New-52 Wonder Woman. Thor on general has much, much better feats than New-52 Wonder Woman --- Pre-New 52 he does not, but honestly, nothing New-52 Wonder Woman has done is that impressive, certainly not enough to grant a win over someone like Thor
    • Supergirl's skill-set did not help against Superman clone, or a Flash that got serious, and it certainly wasn't up to par with Wonder Woman's. It's hard to beat someone who as strength, striking power, durability and weaponry, in addition, more defined feats/battles against other characters
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    @frozen: you didn't debunk anything because you really can't,it's just obious that Superman styruggles with less 99% of the time,the moment new 52 WW fights Superman and you see her taking hits from him and hurting him with her blows like she has always been able to do,what would Superman's high end feats mean?,they will mean nothing like always happens to high end feats from all characters.

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    #133  Edited By frozen  Moderator

    @linkjt: Three debaters debunked your argument.

    It's funny because you praised Dondave's initial argument, but as soon as he turned against your opinion, you retorted. Your argument was debunked, essentially, if you read the other comments {another by Cosmicallyaware1}, you will see that many agreed your argument was wrong and ours was right.

    By your logic, Wonder Woman is featless. Because she does not fight Superman in 99% of her appearances.

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    @frozen said:

    @linkjt: Three debaters debunked your argument.

    It's funny because you praised Dondave's initial argument, but as soon as he turned against your opinion, you retorted. Your argument was debunked, essentially, if you read the other comments {another by Cosmicallyaware1}, you will see that many agreed your argument was wrong and ours was right.

    By your logic, Wonder Woman is featless. Because she does not fight Superman in 99% of her appearances.

    my argument wasn't debunked,and no,WW doesn't need to fight Superman 99% of the time,what it shouldn't happen is seeing a character struggle with things below planetary level 99% of the time if you really want to put that character at planetary level.

    these characters have an standard in their power level which is below planetary,they only get written at planetary level in very few occasions when the writers need them to be more powerful than what they usually are,it all depends on the writer and that is not consistency at all,consistency is how the characters are writen most of the time and that is below planetary level.

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    #135 frozen  Moderator
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    @frozen said:

    @linkjt: Yes it should - by your logic, Wonder Woman must fight Superman 99% of the time in all of her appearances otherwise it is not consistent.

    Your argument was debunked. You can keep saying it wasn't --- but 6 debaters debunking it cleanly is far more than enough to confirm it was.

    http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/wonder-woman-and-supergirl-vs-blue-marvel-and-king-1582606/?messageId=12568883&page=10#js-message-499

    no,WW doesn't have to fight Superman 99% of the time,because on a regular bias,all characters around WW's strengt level hurt Superman,all of them,so there you have the proof that on a regular bias Superman is writen at a level where these characters can give him a fight,that is how Superman is writen in 995 of the stories he appears in,so choose a side,you have 2 choises,Orion,WW and all the characters in this strength class are on Superman's level,or the thousand fioghts where all the characters around that class gave Superman a fight are PIS,what do yiou choose?.

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    #137 frozen  Moderator

    @linkjt: Nope. Because if I use the same logic, weaker characters than Superman have hurt Wonder Woman in 99% of her appearances, therefore she is far weaker by your logic.

    And again, your argument was deubked by 6 people - are you really going to attempt this nonsense again?

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    @frozen said:

    @linkjt: Nope. Because if I use the same logic, weaker characters than Superman have hurt Wonder Woman in 99% of her appearances, therefore she is far weaker by your logic.

    And again, your argument was deubked by 6 people - are you really going to attempt this nonsense again?

    correction most of the time she is hurt by characters that are writen(at least in fights against her)to be on her level,Giganta,Cheetah,Ares,Silver Swan,Gernocide,Devastation,Zeus,other gods,Queen Clea,Circe,etc,all of these characters are usually written around her level when they fight her because they were created according to her level to be threads for her.

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    #139 frozen  Moderator

    @linkjt: But by your logic, thus been shown in ALL of her appearances, and in ALL of her appearances, she has NOT fought Superman, thus you CANNOT assume she can fight Superman. The people at 'Superman's level' are not at his level either 99% of the time.

    Seriously, this logic is broken amd makes no sense.

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    @frozen: even if she doesn't fight Superman,he still fights another 1.000 characters through the years that are below planetary level and still hurt him,so all those times are not valid even though they are his most consistent showings?.

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    @linkjt: He's going to twist every feat and happening to suit his side. Don't even waste your time.

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    @linkjt: He's going to twist every feat and happening to suit his side. Don't even waste your time.

    he can do that all he wants,the facts still remain,Clark and Diana are hurt by things below planetary level on a consistent bias,so i don't know where did these users get that he has planetary durability on a consistent bias,he has better show off feats than most characters,but that never stops Diana,Shazam,Orion;maxima,etc to hurt Clark in a fight even though they don't have planetary strength,so no,Clark doesn't have planetary durability if we go by consistent feats,and if the concept of consistent feats applys to the others why not Superman?,hypocricy.

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    She can't even go to space, so I'd say not very much.

    she never had the ability to breathe on space,but had tools that allowed her to,like her earrings,that wouldn't be a problem,and it doesn't have anything to do with strength,speed,durability.

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    GanymedeOfThemyscira

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    New 52 Wonder Woman beats each one on the list as if the battles were spars.

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    #145  Edited By frozen  Moderator

    @pokeysteve said:

    @linkjt: He's going to twist every feat and happening to suit his side. Don't even waste your time.

    Right........

    Twist feats if I've proven you wrong on every single thread with actual evidence rather than simply arguing for the character I like? Or the fact that six users had to all chime in to debunk the other user's agument?

    You are twisting feats if you believe Supegirl is as fast as Flash {which has been debunked by not only me but several other users countlessly} or that New-52 Wonder Woman is on par with New-52 Superman.

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    @frozen said:

    @pokeysteve said:

    @linkjt: He's going to twist every feat and happening to suit his side. Don't even waste your time.

    Right........

    Twist feats if I've proven you wrong on every single thread with actual evidence rather than simply arguing for the character I like? Or the fact that six users had to all chime in to debunk the other user's agument?

    You are twisting feats if you believe Supegirl is as fast as Flash {which has been debunked by not only me but several other users countlessly} or that New-52 Wonder Woman is on par with New-52 Superman.

    I haven't been following this conversation at all, but if people are saying that then hoooo-boy.

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    #147  Edited By Pokeysteve

    @madflavor said:

    I haven't been following this conversation at all, but if people are saying that then hoooo-boy.

    I argued she was fast enough to hit him and that was all. Surprise, surprise, Frozen exaggerated and twisted that as well. His "evidence" was that he was tired.

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    #148  Edited By frozen  Moderator

    @pokeysteve said:

    @madflavor said:

    I haven't been following this conversation at all, but if people are saying that then hoooo-boy.

    I argued she was fast enough to hit him and that was all. Surprise, surprise, Frozen exaggerated and twisted that as well. His "evidence" was that he was tired.

    You argued she was comparable. Being comparable and being fast enough to hit {a tired} Flash are notthe same thing.

    It was debunked here - http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/kryptonians-vs-earthlings-1570136/

    My debunking was then acknowledged here - http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/challenge-a-viner-577832/?page=186

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    #149  Edited By linkjt

    @frozen said:

    @pokeysteve said:

    @linkjt: He's going to twist every feat and happening to suit his side. Don't even waste your time.

    Right........

    Twist feats if I've proven you wrong on every single thread with actual evidence rather than simply arguing for the character I like? Or the fact that six users had to all chime in to debunk the other user's agument?

    You are twisting feats if you believe Supegirl is as fast as Flash {which has been debunked by not only me but several other users countlessly} or that New-52 Wonder Woman is on par with New-52 Superman.

    excuse me but you and the others didn't debunk anything,saying that Superman has planetary durability because he showe it 5 times,when there are like another thousands of feats that show him getting hurt but less is what we call consistency proving that he is not planetary level in most of his stories,which proves that is how writers usually portray him,there is always a certain standard,a certain level that every character ranks in according to how most writers portray characters in most of their stories,and 7 users saying that 5 feats is more consistent than thousands of feats doesn't maen is true,if you ask all the countless writers that have writen Superman below planetary durability,what will they tell you?.

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