Hi, I'm new to comic vine and have been a WW fan since 2009. I was wondering what I'd post as my first discussion and, well, I guess I just had to get this off my chest. I understand this is going to be controversial, but I generally do want an honest and civil conversation here and I hoe we can.I apologize if my language come across as offensive or confrontational to anyone.

I've noticed how people are willing to accept Azzarello's characterization of the Amazons, stating it as more accurate to Greek myths. Alright, I can accept that even if I don't like it myself. However, it seems that any interpretations of Heracles in a less than positive light gets a similar reaction to how some people felt about Azzarello's Amazons. In fact, it seems that the Amazons reasons for hating men has been either downplayed or outright ignored, whereas Heracles' situation is made to be more tragic. Why do you think this is? Is it because the Amazons being victims makes it difficult for them to be seen as strong warriors?

In Joss Whedon's script, Ares fettered and imprisoned the Amazons, who were said to be greatest warriors in Ancient Greece because he grew envious of them. Hippolyta prayed to Athena for deliverance hence the goddesses created Themyscira to house the Amazons who lived in concealment and fear of men for the next 3 thousand years. This story portrays the Amazons as selfish yellow-bellies that rather hide away from trouble than face this god-forsaken world like we all have to.

@foamborn: In Joss Whedon's script, Ares fettered and imprisoned the Amazons, who were said to be greatest warriors in Ancient Greece because he grew envious of them. Hippolyta prayed to Athena for deliverance hence the goddesses created Themyscira to house the Amazons who lived in concealment and fear of men for the next 3 thousand years. This story portrays the Amazons as selfish yellow-bellies that rather hide away from trouble than face this god-forsaken world like we all have to.

That sounds more like them having an understandable reaction to a traumatic experience. Just because they're warriors doesn't mean they aren't human.

Yeah but if the Amazons can't cope with trauma and get back up on their feet then we can't very well tell tales of strong warrior women. Their story is not a very inspiring one to anyone who might've gone through whatever Hercules did to them.

@agent_z: depends on the era of WW you are reading. From the late 1980's until 2011 Heracles was the rapist and gaoler of the Amazon nation. He was not painted as more than an egotistical monster of Ancient Greece, until about year 2 of Perez run when he was discovered serving his punishment and ultimately forgiven by Hippolyta and the rest of the Amazons. Prior to Perez (who clearly adapted the Greek Labor) Heracles had been a foe of WW on andoff since the1940's, but was mostly painted as a bit of a muscle bound baffoon working for Mars (aka Ares). Azzarello made no reference directly about Heracles so we don't know if the N52 version ever encountered the Amazons, since he's been in a version of hell for thousands of years it's hard to tell.

@foamborn: Yeah but if the Amazons can't cope with trauma and get back up on their feet then we can't very well tell tales of strong warrior women. Their story is not a very inspiring one to anyone who might've gone through whatever Hercules did to them.

Well, I haven't read the Whedon script, but the Perez stories from the 80s have the Amazons eventually start a path to healing from old scars and reconnecting with the rest of the world. They even forgive Heracles for what he did to them. Yes it took 3000 years but to an immortal that may not seem like much, especially since their tragedy took place long before the idea of dealing with PTSD.

@agent_z: from what I've seen of Whedon's script I'm just as happy it got killed. But I agree with you here. As for Herc, I think he's easy to let off the hook in western society because he plays a much more heroic role in most western fiction. Rarely is his insanity shown and it's always explained or made to be some trick. In the recent Rock version it turned out he didn't actually kill his family. It's also easier to do that with an individual than a group though. Who doesn't love a good redemption story?

@csg_cl: from what I've seen of Whedon's script I'm just as happy it got killed. But I agree with you here. As for Herc, I think he's easy to let off the hook in western society because he plays a much more heroic role in most western fiction. Rarely is his insanity shown and it's always explained or made to be some trick. In the recent Rock version it turned out he didn't actually kill his family. It's also easier to do that with an individual than a group though. Who doesn't love a good redemption story?

That's my main point. Heracles gets a pass, not because it makes more sense, but because he's more popular. Kind of like how Batman is allowed to beat anyone because he's more popular. By contrast, the Amazons are almost always unsympathetic antagonists with no defining characteristics beyond, "kill men". Even Xena started out as a brutal warlord. Perez kept the man-hate, but at least framed it in a sympathetic and historically accurate light.

@agent_z: I agree to some extent. I think Heracles gets a pass for certain, I've debated with a few posters on here about the wisdom of trying to use Herc as the antagonist in the film ... I don't see that playing well to broad audiences because the majority only see him as a great Hero and won't accept that dark side, despite the actual mythology.

I don't think Perez really fully explored the man-hate with the Amazons, perhaps it's a product of the times, but I think he kind of glossed over it quickly and went straight to them forgiving and healing. Azzarello, on the other hand, went for broke on the hate and skimmed over the forgiving and healing bit ... But I do think Azzarello was more historically accurate.

@csg_cl: I agree to some extent. I think Heracles gets a pass for certain, I've debated with a few posters on here about the wisdom of trying to use Herc as the antagonist in the film ... I don't see that playing well to broad audiences because the majority only see him as a great Hero and won't accept that dark side, despite the actual mythology.

I don't think it has to be Heracles though. You could use someone like Theseus or Archilles who are usually less pleasant than Heracles. Hell, it doesn't even have to be some hero from Greek Mythology. Just say that the Amazons have been abused and mistreated by men and that leads to them being sequestered on Themyscira.

@agent_z: that's been my general position in it too ... Use Ares or Hades or First Born even. The story works with pretty much any overbearing male character and there are fewer potential pitfalls with the others. Heracles as a villain will just piss people off IMO

@csg_cl: I'm not sure about it pissing people off. Or enough that it might backfire. I mean Heracles was an antagonist in God of War 3 (though you could argue the guy he was up against was even worse). And while I'm sure there would be people who hate to see Heracles as a villain, I think even more would hate to see another evil representation of Hades.

In a nutshell the story goes as follows: Steve was on his way to deliver food and medical supplies to refugees in Albania when he crashed in Themyscira. Wonder Woman found him and they almost immediately fell in love. However Hippolyta sentenced him to death so Diana invoked an themysciran law that allows any Amazon to decide the prisoner's fate if they can best the greatest warrior in a duel aka the Queen. Obviously she won so she left with Steve to Albania where some chieftain claimed the supplies all for himself. She stood up to him and for that he shot her in the chest. She woke up 6 hours later and kicked his arse as well as his subordinates'. Then he took Diana to Gateway City where a woman named Callas, head of a armament manufacturing company used to worship Ares whom she also worked for in conjunction with his nephew, the God Strife. Their goal was to destroy half the city with a giant mechanical chimera that the company built. Wonder Woman met Strife while saving people from a decrepit building about to collapse (i'm not sure Strife was behind that), then she also met Bacco (Dionysius) in a nightclub who told Diana that Athena was dead. Wonder Woman and Steve fought Strife again this time in Spearhead H.Q where she had to submit to Strife and allow him to chain her hands thereby losing her powers or else Steve would've been killed. Strife took her to the Amazon rainforest where he left her to die. However she found a village where she as well as 5 other people were captured by a gang of mercenaries. A little girl asked Wonder Woman who she was and just like that she realized her mother had been watching her through the eyes of women so she kicked their butts, released herself and flew to Gateway City aboard the invisible Jet. In the end she defeated the mechanical chimera as well as Strife with his own spear. Upset by his own failure as well as his nephew's death, Ares made an apparition to basically threaten and curse at Wonder Woman. The movie ends in the Temple of Athena where she told Steve she can fly.

The script was rife with clichés and Wonder Woman was too much like the typical hot alien/robot girlfriend imo, I'm glad this never happened.

@agent_z: fair enough ... But I do think people would spend the whole movie wondering when Heracles will redeem himself :) He's just not a bad guy to the vast majority of movie goers.

Well in the Nu52, Hercules was one of the few good Demigods. He sacrificed himself to stop the Giant-borns from taking over the Earth. Unfortunately he has gone mad from all the centuries in a hell dimensions. Wonder Woman said something like "It would have been nice to have another good sibling" or something along those lines.

I personally hope they find a way to save Hercules and clear his mind. It would be very interesting to see Diana and Herc develop a brother/sister relationship. He could even become protective of her as an older brother, which would create interesting dialogue between him and Superman.

To the OP: The reason why people get upset about finding dirt on Heracles or Hercules lies in that he was the original Superman, the hero god that got into terrible trouble but managed to overcome every obstacle. And thats a perception thats lasted as long as the myths. (you have no shortage of people who claim to be either related to him, being him reborn or just liked being seen as him (like shirtless-Putin).

Well in the Nu52, Hercules was one of the few good Demigods. He sacrificed himself to stop the Giant-borns from taking over the Earth. Unfortunately he has gone mad from all the centuries in a hell dimensions. Wonder Woman said something like "It would have been nice to have another good sibling" or something along those lines.

No so sure that's really true, most of the demi's seemed to be ok as long as you didn't do anything overly stupid. Add to this, beside fighting alongside the Atlanteans, we don't know what else Herc had been up to prior to incarceration or how he was. He could after all have been every bit as vile as Vandal Savage (hence why the Atlanteans locked him up) and only joined that old fight because it amused him.

All that said, DC does have all the reasons to redeem him now since the First Born has pretty much taken his role as horrendous muscle mountain man antagonist to WW.

@outside_85: Well in the annual Aquaman and Wonder Woman #2 Diana says "It would have been nice to have the one noble hero of my extended family back in the world" clearly stating Hercules used to be a noble hero.

Yes and no ... He didn't really "sacrifice himself" if the story AM told us is accurate ... more like he was sacrificed by the Atlanteans. Obviously he was fighting the Giant-born, but we don't really know his motivations.

As to Diana's commentary about him ... she's obviously going on hearsay about him rather than experience. There is plenty of room in the N52 for him to end up being a total creep if someone wants him to be. But it does sound like he had any involvement with the Amazon's in this continuity.

No, thats just how he is remembered, the same way he was remembered in the post-Crisis world. Like we real people tend to remember him for his heroic exploits, while forgetting that he also killed his wife and child and was sent on his labors because he gravely offended powerful people and had to make amends.

@outside_85: Hera made him kill his wife and child. Once he realised what had happened, he completed the twelve labours to rid himself of sin and obtain immortality.

Diana isnt a normal person who learned about Hercules in school or online. She clearly has a more reliable source being an Olympian herself. For all we know she got the info directly from the other gods or amazons who would have no reason to lie. All we know so far about Nu52 Hercules is that Diana believes he was a noble hero.

What Diana believes and what actually was are two different things. The gods and her sisters could have all sorts of reasons to keep her in the dark (see the sex raids).

Why can't Hercules just be the hero that he's supposed to be. In Greek Mythology he wasn't just a hero he was the greatest greek hero and in my opinion it's not worth sacrificing that just so we can have the Amazons, whose name is synonymous with "strong women", raped and sent into self-inflicted exile in a monumental display of weakness. I don't get why anyone would wanna rehash that story. I'd much rather see the Amazons portrayed as a fearless, triumphant nation of badass women that take sh*t from nobody.

@outside_85: Well since we don't yet know what actually was, what Diana believes is all we have to go on. I see no reason why Diana who practically grew up in greek history, wouldn't know about the greatest hero spawned by the Olympians. If you want to call into question Dianas knowledge about what kind of person Hercules was then you will have to question everything Diana knows about greek history, because as it stands, she is only 23 years old and wasn't there for any of it.

To be honest it seems like some people only question what Diana said because they don't like it. Had she said he was a ruthless killer I doubt you would be so questioning of Dianas knowledge. And Diana made the statement with no hesitation. She didn't say "I think he might've been noble" she said he was as if it was pure fact.

I have no problem with the Amazons being depicted as man hating, she warriors. Having a society built around the idea that all men are monsters is fraught with possibilities for Wonder Woman and other Amazon warriors. Clearly they are in the wrong, just like how they raped and killed men to continue their lineage, just like they are wrong for passing off all their male offspring to work as slaves, no sorry, "grateful children" (rolls eyes) of Aphrodite's cuckolded husband so he can make weapons for the gods.

It is possible to depict the Amazons as wonderful, strong warriors and also complete monsters. Just like the Spartans. They chucked skinny and small babies over the cliffs (or bashed their skulls in). Having Amazons learn they were wrong all this time to paint all mankind with the same brush could make for some interesting reading.

I'm not committed to this opinion, but that's how I feel as it stands now.

(what is up with the weird font sizing?)

(Never mind. Now it looks normal)

Because like everyother character and event, they can be whatever a writer wants them to be.

And because in the Wonder Woman setting he has always been depicted as such.

As we have seen already, the ones who would have lain any knowledge on her have been capable of lying and withholding information for their own reasons.

You are probably right, I wouldn't question her statement that much... but because we have nearly 80 years of Wonder Woman stories where Hercules was depicted as a monster to the Amazons, so him being a monster again is about as surprising as Dr. Doom turning out to be working for himself despite being on a team.

@outside_85: I get what you're saying, and it does make sense. However, for many years Wonder Woman was a clay sculptor brought to life by the Olympians. Hercules wasn't related to her. Now Diana is an Olympian demigod and sister to Hercules. The New 52 has almost completely changed Wonder Woman and the gods. I see no reason why Hercules would be an exception.

To give a little more context, Aquaman also said he sort of regretted forcing Herc back in the Hell dimension. He seemed to think Herc deserved better. The only problem was his insanity which I hope they find a way to cure.

@klaus: That is true, but I suspect that is more to do with Azzarello's person than anything else. I mean that in the way of that he basically kept WW to herself where the editors, for once, didn't mandate stuff like Superboyfriend appearing. Azzarello had the clout to make Ares into Diana's pseudo-father, and then kill him. I am not sure there are that many other writers that would be allowed to do that. (Like Simone had to put up with a lot of editorial interference, like the origins of Genocide, the Amazons attack on Washington and so on.)

@ms-lola:

I have no problem with the Amazons being depicted as man hating, she warriors. Having a society built around the idea that all men are monsters is fraught with possibilities for Wonder Woman and other Amazon warriors. Clearly they are in the wrong, just like how they raped and killed men to continue their lineage, just like they are wrong for passing off all their male offspring to work as slaves, no sorry, "grateful children" (rolls eyes) of Aphrodite's cuckolded husband so he can make weapons for the gods.

It is possible to depict the Amazons as wonderful, strong warriors and also complete monsters. Just like the Spartans. They chucked skinny and small babies over the cliffs (or bashed their skulls in). Having Amazons learn they were wrong all this time to paint all mankind with the same brush could make for some interesting reading.

I'm not committed to this opinion, but that's how I feel as it stands now.

Its not the Amazons being wrong about men that I have a problem with. It's that most writers don't really explore the idea that these women might have sympathetic and understandable reasons for not trusting men. Yes they shouldn't have painted all men with the same brush, but given the time they were born in can you really blame them?

@foamborn: Why can't Hercules just be the hero that he's supposed to be. In Greek Mythology he wasn't just a hero he was the greatest greek hero and in my opinion it's not worth sacrificing that just so we can have the Amazons, whose name is synonymous with "strong women", raped and sent into self-inflicted exile in a monumental display of weakness. I don't get why anyone would wanna rehash that story. I'd much rather see the Amazons portrayed as a fearless, triumphant nation of badass women that take sh*t from nobody.

Heracles was a complicated figure to even the Greeks and his stories were constantly being reinterpreted even back in ancient times. For instance, he once killed a man whose horses he stole (http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/herakles/moralmain.htm) and would sell women as war prizes to his friends (such Hesione of Troy). And there are other tales of him losing his temper that don't even mention Hera.

I don't think the Amazons being victims of rape makes them weak. Not anymore than Barbara Gordon (crippled by the Joker, Cassandra Cain (abused by her father), Dinah Lance (tortured and was rendered temporarily mute), Bruce Wayne (temporarily crippled) Clark Kent (temporarily killed) and dozens of other characters who have had all kinds horrible thing happen to them. It's all about execution. I understand your having reservations about such a story being told, especially superhero comics' history with the subject matter, but I've seen it done well in WW before by George Perez.

@agent_z: Heracles was a complicated figure to even the Greeks and his stories were constantly being reinterpreted even back in ancient times. For instance, he once killed a man whose horses he stole (http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/herakles/moralmain.htm) and would sell women as war prizes to his friends (such Hesione of Troy). And there are other tales of him losing his temper that don't even mention Hera.

I don't think the Amazons being victims of rape makes them weak. Not anymore than Barbara Gordon (crippled by the Joker, Cassandra Cain (abused by her father), Dinah Lance (tortured and was rendered temporarily mute), Bruce Wayne (temporarily crippled) Clark Kent (temporarily killed) and dozens of other characters who have had all kinds horrible thing happen to them. It's all about execution. I understand your having reservations about such a story being told, especially superhero comics' history with the subject matter, but I've seen it done well in WW before by George Perez.

I knew he killed Linus, his music teacher because he reprehended him, I guess Heracles was volatile and experienced sudden fits of rage like a man with a double Y chromosome ie tall, very strong males with explosive temperaments that are not necessarily ill-intentioned. Raising an army to vanquish and rape the Amazons though is something else entirely, it's an act of pure premeditated evil. Upon his death, Heracles still supposedly joined the Gods in Olympus for being the greatest Greek hero so he was obviously viewed as such. Maybe he killed those innocent people before he learned to channel his anger into becoming a hero, the myth of Heracles is a bit of redemption story anyway.

More than being raped, what I don't like about that story is how the Amazons deal with it and the fact that Hippolyta then actually fell in love with him. If the whole ordeal was what caused those women to break away and become Amazons in the first place perhaps I could get behind it. I wish the Amazons were just really accomplished and tenacious without relying too much on divine providence. I don't like the idea of imparting them wisdom and strength so that they may surmount the challenges of living in Paradise. I'd rather them do it with their own natural female configuration.

@foamborn:

I knew he killed Linus, his music teacher because he reprehended him, I guess Heracles was volatile and experienced sudden fits of rage like a man with a double Y chromosome ie tall, very strong males with explosive temperaments that are not necessarily ill-intentioned. Raising an army to vanquish and rape the Amazons though is something else entirely, it's an act of pure premeditated evil. Upon his death, Heracles still supposedly joined the Gods in Olympus for being the greatest Greek hero so he was obviously viewed as such. Maybe he killed those innocent people before he learned to channel his anger into becoming a hero, the myth of Heracles is a bit of redemption story anyway.

More than being raped, what I don't like about that story is how the Amazons deal with it and the fact that Hippolyta then actually fell in love with him. If the whole ordeal was what caused those women to break away and become Amazons in the first place perhaps I could get behind it. I wish the Amazons were just really accomplished and tenacious without relying too much on divine providence. I don't like the idea of imparting them wisdom and strength so that they may surmount the challenges of living in Paradise. I'd rather them do it with their own natural female configuration.

The gods weren't exactly paragons of virtue either. Them celebrating him as the greatest hero that ever lived may not mean much. Hippolyta falling for him afterwards was something that I would leave out to be honest and I'll confess I should have thought about that more. Also the gods didn't do everything for them. The Amazons had their own music, arts and philosophies and they built their temples and homes themselves. Don't forget that Themyscira was also home to a portal to Taratarus.

@agent_z: The gods weren't exactly paragons of virtue either. Them celebrating him as the greatest hero that ever lived may not mean much. Hippolyta falling for him afterwards was something that I would leave out to be honest and I'll confess I should have thought about that more. Also the gods didn't do everything for them. The Amazons had their own music, arts and philosophies and they built their temples and homes themselves. Don't forget that Themyscira was also home to a portal to Taratarus.

With divine endowments even chimpanzees could make their own music. To each their own I guess, personally I don't hold very dearly to those stories.

I think you're a bit confused by the relationship between the goddesses and the Amazons. The goddesses merely gave them the immortality and the island, but it was the Amazons who made it a home and a place of culture. If you like you can compare it to Superman's powers or the money Batman inherited from his parents - they may not have done anything to gain them but it's how they used them that matters.

It could work.

Beata

Honestly I'd rather he just be an antagonist for the ancient Amazon, and has long sense been dead sense the modern era.

Queen Hippolyte had a special piece of armor. It was a leather belt that had been given to her by Ares, the war god, because she was the best warrior of all the Amazons. She wore this belt across her chest and used it to carry her sword and spear. Eurystheus wanted Hippolyte's belt as a present to give to his daughter, and he sent Hercules to bring it back.

Hercules' friends realized that the hero could not fight against the whole Amazon army by himself, so they joined with him and set sail in a single ship.

After a long journey, they reached the land of the Amazons and put in at the harbor. When Hercules and the Greeks got off the boat, Hippolyte came down to visit them.

She asked Hercules why he had come, and when he told her, she promised to give him the belt. But the goddess Hera knew that the arrival of Hercules meant nothing but trouble for the Amazons. Disguised as an Amazon warrior, Hera went up and down the army saying to each woman that the strangers who had arrived were going to carry off the queen. So the Amazons put on their armor.

The women warriors charged on horseback down to the ship.

But when Hercules saw that they were wearing their armor and were carrying their weapons, he knew that he was under attack. Thinking fast, he drew his sword and killed Hippolyte.

Then he undid her belt and took it away from her.

Hercules and the Greeks fought the rest of the Amazons in a great battle.

When the enemy had been driven off, Hercules sailed away. After a stopover at the city of Troy, Hercules returned to Mycenae, and he gave the belt to Eurystheus.

In the myth of Heracles, Hippolyta's girdle (ζωστὴρ Ἱππολύτης) was the object of his ninth labor. He was sent to retrieve it for Admeta, the daughter of King Eurystheus. Most versions of the story say that Hippolyta was so impressed with Heracles that she gave him the girdle without argument, perhaps while visiting him on his ship. Then (according to Pseudo-Apollodorus), the goddess Hera, making herself appear as one of the Amazons, spread a rumor among them that Heracles and his crew were actually abducting their queen. So the Amazons attacked the ship. In the fray that followed, Heracles slew Hippolyta, stripped her of the belt, fought off the attackers, and sailed away.

Isn't N52 Diana really just a female Hercules?