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    Wonder Woman

    Character » Wonder Woman appears in 8717 issues.

    The Amazon princess, blessed with god-like super abilities, Wonder Woman is one of Earth's most powerful defenders of peace, justice, and equality and a member of the Justice League. She is considered an archetype for many heroines outside of comic book. Her initial origin depicted her as a clay baby brought to life by patron goddess Aphrodite, but in recent years she has been depicted as the daughter of Zeus and Amazon queen Hippolyta.

    Finch interview on WW

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    Outside_85

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    @agent41 said:

    then what was the point in giving her a father?.

    and i'm not disliking the book for no reasons,i dislike it because it changes WW's direction once again,she is the only iconic character that hasn't stability within her basics and concept,Post Crisis gave her a definitive concept about her origin and background,they should have tried to work better with those basics instead of changing everything,the only thing they do by changing her common ground is take away the stability of the character and take away any definitive concept about her,nothing good can come out of that.

    What I read. And if you don't know why, perhaps you should read the book.

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    Pokeysteve

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    @csg_cl said:

    First I've never stated Azz wrote her better. Nor have I said this is the greatest WW run in history. Also Perez is Post-Crisis and his rendition of her is what set the stage for the "Perfect Woman" bit ... his particular version of Diana was unsure of herself and naive in many ways in the early days but she quickly became an archetype and not nearly as relatable as a person. She was always more conceptual, fighting battles against enemies that represented evils rather than being truly evil. He was an excellent narrator who spoon fed his audience what he wanted them to know. I loved Perez version of WW, but I didn't always love the stories told about her.

    I'm curious WHEN you believe this happened. Gimmie an issue? You can ballpark it.

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    Pokeysteve

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    @pokeysteve said:

    We haven't seen her deal with the news she has an actual dad yet. She's been protecting Zeke and Zola for the last 3 years.

    Maybe because to her it is not a big deal?

    Her mother lying to her for 20+ years isn't a big deal?

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    Outside_85

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    Her mother lying to her for 20+ years isn't a big deal?

    That part was dealt with immediately by knocking over a small forest's worth of trees and Aleka before hitting the bar.

    Having a father on the other hand; doesn't appear to matter to her.

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    CSG_CL

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    @pokeysteve: I'd say it began as early as issue 7 or 8 when they first brought in characters like Mindy Mayer to be honest. The first arc of Perez was one of the best of all time, but by the time we get to Diana selling hotdogs it's changed considerably in terms of how relatable she actually appears, they tried a bit too hard and it starts to get preachy and over the top ... That's the thing with characters like Diana ... She has had arcs that were fantastic and then arcs that are bland as toast under the same writer.

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    Pokeysteve

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    #308  Edited By Pokeysteve
    @csg_cl said:

    @pokeysteve: I'd say it began as early as issue 7 or 8 when they first brought in characters like Mindy Mayer to be honest. The first arc of Perez was one of the best of all time, but by the time we get to Diana selling hotdogs it's changed considerably in terms of how relatable she actually appears, they tried a bit too hard and it starts to get preachy and over the top ... That's the thing with characters like Diana ... She has had arcs that were fantastic and then arcs that are bland as toast under the same writer.

    Issue 7 was almost all character development. I didn't really like Mayer but Wonder Woman matured considerably once she came into her life. If Wonder Woman can be considered "too preachy" than Superman and Batman should be unreadable lol. I don't remember Perez ever having her sell hot dogs either. Her working at the fast food joint was Loebs genius at work.

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    CSG_CL

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    #309  Edited By CSG_CL

    @pokeysteve: you asked when she started to become and archetype. It's not something that suddenly happens, I believe the ground work for it began around the second arc of Perez, but I don't believe he specifically drove her there ... I suppose she actually sold tacos or something, I was being sarcastic, but the point remains fairly early on she began to slide into this problem ... Look at the original Perez/Newel Silver Swan, she was a battered wife ... One in a long line of villains that were more about an evil concept than an evil individual. Many, if not all, of Diana's rogues from this era were women who were victims in some way. I'm not trying to downplay the era, but there are reasons she's been called unrelatable by many a critic over the years. Loeb was one of the worst offenders, but certainly not the only one.

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    Pokeysteve

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    @csg_cl said:

    you asked when she started to become and archetype. It's not something that suddenly happens, I believe the ground work for it began around the second arc of Perez, but I don't believe he specifically drove her there ... I suppose she actually sold tacos or something, I was being sarcastic, but the point remains fairly early on she began to slide into this problem ... Look at the original Perez/Newel Silver Swan, she was a battered wife ... One in a long line of villains that were more about an evil concept than an evil individual. Many, if not all, of Diana's rogues from this era were women who were victims in some way. I'm not trying to downplay the era, but there are reasons she's been called unrelatable by many a critic over the years. Loeb was one of the worst offenders, but certainly not the only one.

    Eh. Groundwork implies planning and intentions. I don't think Perez would ever have had her working at a taco place lol. The "unrelatable" issue with super powered heroes is dumb. Most of them aren't relatable and they sell anyways. Whether it's an evil concept or an evil person, evil is evil. Perez was very good at fleshing out main villains back stories also.

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    CSG_CL

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    @pokeysteve: not necessarily, Perez introduced the concept of WW's purpose being peace rather than justice as well as her being a "stranger in a strange land" and deliberately set her up as a figure that battled issues rather than villains. He managed to (mostly) tell good stories within these constructs, but he left her open to hokeiness such as "Wonder Woman Gets a Job"

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    Pokeysteve

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    @csg_cl said:

    @pokeysteve: not necessarily, Perez introduced the concept of WW's purpose being peace rather than justice as well as her being a "stranger in a strange land" and deliberately set her up as a figure that battled issues rather than villains. He managed to (mostly) tell good stories within these constructs, but he left her open to hokeiness such as "Wonder Woman Gets a Job"

    I think I can see that and I agree. Blaming him for something that someone else wrote doesn't seem fair though.

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    Outside_85

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    #314  Edited By Outside_85

    @csg_cl said:

    @pokeysteve: not necessarily, Perez introduced the concept of WW's purpose being peace rather than justice as well as her being a "stranger in a strange land" and deliberately set her up as a figure that battled issues rather than villains. He managed to (mostly) tell good stories within these constructs, but he left her open to hokeiness such as "Wonder Woman Gets a Job"

    I think I can see that and I agree. Blaming him for something that someone else wrote doesn't seem fair though.

    It was WML that had her get a job selling taco's. I wouldn't call it an unfair thing for her to do, because Circe had made Themyscira vanish, basically leaving Diana homeless and broke.

    That said, WW getting a normal job isn't that odd, it's the fewest heroes that can do their thing without having something to pay for it all, superheroes have to eat too :) (And while she probably could live off the land, Diana camping in the woods or whatever would seem equally odd)

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    Muffin_Sangria

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    @pokeysteve said:

    @csg_cl said:

    @pokeysteve: not necessarily, Perez introduced the concept of WW's purpose being peace rather than justice as well as her being a "stranger in a strange land" and deliberately set her up as a figure that battled issues rather than villains. He managed to (mostly) tell good stories within these constructs, but he left her open to hokeiness such as "Wonder Woman Gets a Job"

    I think I can see that and I agree. Blaming him for something that someone else wrote doesn't seem fair though.

    It was WML that had her get a job selling taco's. I wouldn't call it an unfair thing for her to do, because Circe had made Themyscira vanish, basically leaving Diana homeless and broke.

    That said, WW getting a normal job isn't that odd, it's the fewest heroes that can do their thing without having something to pay for it all, superheroes have to eat too :) (And while she probably could live off the land, Diana camping in the woods or whatever would seem equally odd)

    Didn't her being homeless and broke have more to do with the Maxwell Lorde incident? As far as I know the Amazons didn't fund the embassy. She made money by marketing the Wonder Woman franchise, and probably making some smart investments too. Eventually saving up enough to fund her embassy. She did have to close the embassy when the island disappeared, but I thought being homeless and broke had more to do with the government seizing her assets after she murdered a public figure.

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    Outside_85

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    Didn't her being homeless and broke have more to do with the Maxwell Lorde incident? As far as I know the Amazons didn't fund the embassy. She made money by marketing the Wonder Woman franchise, and probably making some smart investments too. Eventually saving up enough to fund her embassy. She did have to close the embassy when the island disappeared, but I thought being homeless and broke had more to do with the government seizing her assets after she murdered a public figure.

    Na, I am thinking the WML run, Circe made the island vanish over night along with the Themyscirans and the invading Bana. Which I think was before Diana became a really big name within the post-Crisis DCU.

    The embassy closed because it didn't have a nation to represent any more, Diana was nearly the only Amazon left. :) (Diana convinced the Amazons leave the world rather than fight OMAC's)

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    Pokeysteve

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    @pokeysteve said:

    I think I can see that and I agree. Blaming him for something that someone else wrote doesn't seem fair though.

    It was WML that had her get a job selling taco's. I wouldn't call it an unfair thing for her to do, because Circe had made Themyscira vanish, basically leaving Diana homeless and broke.

    That said, WW getting a normal job isn't that odd, it's the fewest heroes that can do their thing without having something to pay for it all, superheroes have to eat too :) (And while she probably could live off the land, Diana camping in the woods or whatever would seem equally odd)

    It isn't fair to blame Perez for what Loebs wrote. That's what I meant.

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    CSG_CL

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    @csg_cl said:

    @pokeysteve: not necessarily, Perez introduced the concept of WW's purpose being peace rather than justice as well as her being a "stranger in a strange land" and deliberately set her up as a figure that battled issues rather than villains. He managed to (mostly) tell good stories within these constructs, but he left her open to hokeiness such as "Wonder Woman Gets a Job"

    I think I can see that and I agree. Blaming him for something that someone else wrote doesn't seem fair though.

    I'm not blaming him for another's bad stories ... that's all on the individual writers shoulders (and whoever let that crap pass edit!) ... just saying it was possible because of the way he structured the character.

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    CSG_CL

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    #319  Edited By CSG_CL

    @outside_85 said:

    @pokeysteve said:

    @csg_cl said:

    @pokeysteve: not necessarily, Perez introduced the concept of WW's purpose being peace rather than justice as well as her being a "stranger in a strange land" and deliberately set her up as a figure that battled issues rather than villains. He managed to (mostly) tell good stories within these constructs, but he left her open to hokeiness such as "Wonder Woman Gets a Job"

    I think I can see that and I agree. Blaming him for something that someone else wrote doesn't seem fair though.

    It was WML that had her get a job selling taco's. I wouldn't call it an unfair thing for her to do, because Circe had made Themyscira vanish, basically leaving Diana homeless and broke.

    That said, WW getting a normal job isn't that odd, it's the fewest heroes that can do their thing without having something to pay for it all, superheroes have to eat too :) (And while she probably could live off the land, Diana camping in the woods or whatever would seem equally odd)

    Working isn't the problem, but fastfood? It's about the job concept being poorly executed. Come on like she couldn't get a professional job ... she was very well known by that point thanks to Myndi Mayer so there is no reason to think she would have had trouble getting a less silly job.

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    Outside_85

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    #320  Edited By Outside_85

    @csg_cl: With nothing save an ancient education from a place no one can get in touch with to go on? Eh... I don't think so.

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    CSG_CL

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    @csg_cl: With nothing save an ancient education from a place no one can get in touch with to go on? Eh... I don't think so.

    and references from a noteable Dr. of Archaeology from Harvard and several high profile Military officers ... pretty sure she could have done better than schlepping tacos.

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    #322  Edited By Outside_85
    @csg_cl said:

    and references from a noteable Dr. of Archaeology from Harvard and several high profile Military officers ... pretty sure she could have done better than schlepping tacos.

    It might work like that if said people had some really good friends who needed a hand of somekind they know Diana can provide. The military really can't (or shouldn't) provide her with anything due to security issues stemming from the fact she isn't a US native. Besides, I seem to recall that Meyers had ended up murdered (with Diana as a suspect) by the time of Diana's personal bankruptcy.

    Also, I suspect there could be a specific reason for WML to put her into that kind of 'lowly' form of employ. Diana is a princess, she's a high-flying celebrity superhero who often have to save the most powerful people on the planet from their own mistakes and those of others. So how is Diana going to keep her feet near the ground and interact with regular Joe Smoe, or more importantly, when are we readers going to see it?

    But might I ask what you would have liked to see her do, had she not been serving taco's?

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    Muffin_Sangria

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    @csg_cl said:

    First I've never stated Azz wrote her better. Nor have I said this is the greatest WW run in history. Also Perez is Post-Crisis and his rendition of her is what set the stage for the "Perfect Woman" bit ... his particular version of Diana was unsure of herself and naive in many ways in the early days but she quickly became an archetype and not nearly as relatable as a person. She was always more conceptual, fighting battles against enemies that represented evils rather than being truly evil. He was an excellent narrator who spoon fed his audience what he wanted them to know. I loved Perez version of WW, but I didn't always love the stories told about her.

    I'm curious WHEN you believe this happened. Gimmie an issue? You can ballpark it.

    I think DC character are better off when they're over the top iconic. That's what DC does best. Sometimes making a character too "relatable" can actually be a hindrance.

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    CSG_CL

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    @pokeysteve said:

    @csg_cl said:

    First I've never stated Azz wrote her better. Nor have I said this is the greatest WW run in history. Also Perez is Post-Crisis and his rendition of her is what set the stage for the "Perfect Woman" bit ... his particular version of Diana was unsure of herself and naive in many ways in the early days but she quickly became an archetype and not nearly as relatable as a person. She was always more conceptual, fighting battles against enemies that represented evils rather than being truly evil. He was an excellent narrator who spoon fed his audience what he wanted them to know. I loved Perez version of WW, but I didn't always love the stories told about her.

    I'm curious WHEN you believe this happened. Gimmie an issue? You can ballpark it.

    I think DC character are better off when they're over the top iconic. That's what DC does best. Sometimes making a character too "relatable" can actually be a hindrance.

    I think that's a matter of individual taste. I wouldn't disagree completely, but it's also something that can get cheesy quickly with an inferior writer.

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    Pokeysteve

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    @csg_cl said:

    @outside_85 said:

    @csg_cl: With nothing save an ancient education from a place no one can get in touch with to go on? Eh... I don't think so.

    and references from a noteable Dr. of Archaeology from Harvard and several high profile Military officers ... pretty sure she could have done better than schlepping tacos.

    Being multilingual wouldn't have hurt either.

    I think DC character are better off when they're over the top iconic. That's what DC does best. Sometimes making a character too "relatable" can actually be a hindrance.

    I agree with some of that. Making their characters larger than life is what DC does. Making them "relatable", whatever that means, doesn't really hurt them.

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    CSG_CL

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    @csg_cl said:

    @outside_85 said:

    @csg_cl: With nothing save an ancient education from a place no one can get in touch with to go on? Eh... I don't think so.

    and references from a noteable Dr. of Archaeology from Harvard and several high profile Military officers ... pretty sure she could have done better than schlepping tacos.

    Being multilingual wouldn't have hurt either.

    @muffin_sangria said:

    I think DC character are better off when they're over the top iconic. That's what DC does best. Sometimes making a character too "relatable" can actually be a hindrance.

    I agree with some of that. Making their characters larger than life is what DC does. Making them "relatable", whatever that means, doesn't really hurt them.

    good point ... translator for the UN all the way :)

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