@willienotwilliam: @jphulk26: @alsummers: I think I know where I messed up. How about Wonder Woman shouldn't represent the feminist movement, but she should represent the feminist ideals. I think I've stated that for the most part, but there could also be things I assume about the things I write that just don't come across, and I'm sorry for that.

I think it's an awesome idea to have her villains have a pseudo network in which they interact. I think that'd be an interesting use of Villainy Inc. to maybe use them as a connection between the villains. Maybe they sell henchmen or something. I think that's at least a place to start, at least for the less mythological characters. Doom's Doorway was a brilliant idea for her mythological characters that seem to be something that would work very effectively.

I think I read somewhere else on this thread say that superman's villains were kind of sci fi, and Batman villains were like the gangster and the sociopaths, but Wonder Woman's were mythological and political and I think that would be a very interesting correlation to have more deeply explored. I believe a character like Duke of Deception (preferably just called Deception) would be a great character to tow the line of those two concepts and explore that as opposition to Diana.

Also, curiosity question, visually how does everyone think these characters should be interpreted?

She doesnt have to declare herself a feminist but her character certainly embodies feminism and her creator purposely put feminist messages and ideas with in her world and her character. So the character may never claim to be one in story, though she has, but the character should never be seperated from promoting feminist ideologies.

As to your comparison.....maybe. in reality plenty of people are anti socialist solely because they are only exposed to socialism through an american/pro capitalist point of view, however this is somewhat of a false equivency because capitalist in our society arent as removed from socialist/socialism as themyscirans are removed from men and our world's gender dynamics.

You dont have to be a feminist to be against war and promote peace however peace and anti oppression go hand and hand with feminism. And imo to be thorough in any liberatory politic you need to have a feminist or womanist lens(though thats going way to deep for this convo).

i never asserted at anypoint that ww is a representation of all women and honestly anyone who makes a statement is absurd because no one character can or should even attempt to represent nearly half of the world's population because its just not plausible. Feminism isn't exactly about gaining rights and even if that was the main point of it, gaining rights goes hand and hand with being right.

truthfully Wonder Woman is a feminist character and feminism has been essential to her character ever since she was created as her creator was a feminist and had a specific feminist message in mind when he created and wrote her.

A few new villains, but the old ones just need to be writen better.

I´m not agaist writer introducing new villains as long as they work on her old ones. And ones that will stick, like Ares and Dr. Psycho and in my personal opinion Alkyone and the circle.

@jphulk26: Yeah I meant to put a few new ones but the old ones just need to be written better.

But I think her old ones are fine writters just have to write them better.

@willienotwilliam: Can I ask what you define feminism as? Like I feel like we're debating around ourselves too much when we should just be finding out what's best for the character, which is acting way too much like congress for me.

I guess I just find Alkyone just another version of a "Dark Diana" type of character. Not that far removed from a Genocide or Devastation IMO, probably what those characters *should*have been. But ultimately she doesn't stand out enough to me to put in the upper echelon of villains, in part because she doesn't have motivation outside of Paradise Island and the Amazons and I find that somewhat limiting. I"m also not sure I've ever loved the idea of Amazon Fundamentalists, it seems like an oxymoron to me as the Amazon's core is sisterhood.

Circe has more flexibility, despite originating as a public domain character. God-like powers, animosity toward Diana and the Amazons as well as a longstanding issue with men in general gives her a higher threat level IMO. I will say that I don't like when she's written as a dingbat as we saw toward the end of Pre-52 continuity, and let's not even get started on her JLU animated version. But her first appearances in N52 were pretty solid. I like making her the power behind the thug bad guys. Could have delved deeper into her backstory, but overall her portrayal was probably the best thing Tomasi has done on SM/WW.

I agree with your assessment of Circe, and I do think she is good villain. Just not worthy of Lex Luthor, Joker, arch-nemesis status. Every Superhero has a magic character villain, its as generic as the animal-type villains.

I have to say though I don´t see where you get the idea that Alkyone was a "dark Diana". She is not the opposite of Diana in anyway, her motivations are completely warped and border on borderline insane. The mixture of her completely warped mind and motivation, with her extremely adept mind for strategy, makes her an extremely dangerous threat and the fact she is fixated on Hippolyta to the point of homocidally obsessed, also tests Diana´s capacity for mercy. In a court of law, Alkyone would certainly be eligible for the insanity plea. That´s an intriguing characrer. She somehow has placed herself in the role of hero, and justifies what she is doing on the basis of wanting to protect Themyscira, but also has some underlying Lesbian infatuation with Hippolyta driving her. I mean how many villains are so dedicated to their mission that they are willing to carry it out, then face the consequences of their crimes, with their own death? And how is any of that an inversion of Diana? As for Amazon Fundementalist, I mean come-on? So you´re saying the Amazons always have to be perfect? That they can´t have even one flaw? That´s boring IMO? No I don´t want them as a society to be backward, or some martial, barbarian cult who rapes men and discards male children; but I think even within the rich spiritual and material culture the Amazons have created on Themyscira, they can afford to have just one or two nutcases, who are willing to spin Amazonian ideals to fit their own twisted motivations and views of the world. That is what Alkyone represents to me and why she is philosophically at odds with Diana. She take all the terrible aspects of Amazon culture that Diana objects to and celebrates them. The isolationism, the hatred of men, the lack of openess and fear of everything other.

In anycase I would like to see both Circe and Alkyone developed. The Circle was certainly the best part of Simone´s run and all the things to do with Alkyone were most fun. But I personally would like her taken in a darker direction and I think you´re right, they should expand her motivations, so that they become a wider threat to humanity as a whole. Circe, I still believe would best serve as a partner to other Wonder Woman villains. For me, specifically Venessa Cale and Alkyone would be a good team up for her because I think they will work well together, much like Lex Luthor and Braniac do when they team up against Superman. I can see how they will be in conflict with eachother but will also recognise they are better together.

I see Alkyone as simply an inversion of the ideals Diana holds as an Amazon. A twisted dark outcome to what is bright and beautiful about Diana. A woman who does not understand that you can love without being obsessive. I think you see far more in what Alkyone was than I do ... I think she was a decent concept, but ultimately was rather one-note to me ... maybe I'll go back and re-read the arc as it's been a while. Maybe I'll see more reading it after seeing your POV on her.

As for Amazons, no I don't think they should be perfect, far from it in fact. I think they should each be on their own path to enlightenment (for lack of a better word). I hate the idea of a faction of Amazons that have no desire to become better, to evolve, to learn, to change, as that flies in the face of what the Amazons are supposed to be. The beauty of the Amazons to me is the idea that they are always moving forward, they are curious and innovative. There should be no "fundamental" baseline within a society that is ever growing. Marston had the right idea IMO ... the Amazons were highly advanced because they never allowed themselves to sit back and think "this is what perfection looks like, let's never change". That leaves tons of room for missteps and bad decisions and even misguided ideals within each individual woman (like man haters, or obsessively in love with their Queen) but it also leaves us with a society that will guide these people onto a path that empowers them.

Like someone mentioned before, most of the writers today aren't acclimated to the foundation that Marston laid for the character when he was writing her. They don't understand her backstory, how she was created, her mythos, etc. If they can't even get the basics down how are they going to improve her villains? As for WWs rogues gallery, people are acting like she has the worst villains in comics, when in reality, her rogues just never got nearly as fleshed out as batman's, superman's or green lantern's rogues. Again, that mostly has to do with writers not understanding the character's mythos. I do think WWs current rogues have potential and never really been fleshed out to their fullest, so no, WW doesn't entirely need new rogues. She just needs a writer who cares about her and her villains.

she actually needs some good villains,i mean villains that are not earthbound.

Not at all, she just needs a better company than DC and the fitting writers.

Grail isn't a WW rogue persay but I think she's a great villain for WW to go up a against

I agree.

Currently, Grail is a bad villain with no motives. Also, WW deserves a better villain than a Darkseid rip-off.

@truethemyscira: opinions differ and I highly doubt Marvel would write her any better.....

I actually wasn't talking about Marvel.

No.