The Amazon princess, blessed with god-like super abilities, Wonder Woman is one of Earth's most powerful defenders of peace, justice, and equality and a member of the Justice League. She is considered an archetype for many heroines outside of comic book. Her initial origin depicted her as a clay baby brought to life by patron goddess Aphrodite, but in recent years she has been depicted as the daughter of Zeus and Amazon queen Hippolyta.
It took a while but it seem like writers are starting to take her serious. She not in the best stories as of now but good fights could always make up for a bad story, right?
Thanks to Johns and Tomasi for showing their interest in portraying a strong female. Wonder Woman recently unleash her wrath on Superman and didn't held back one bit in a fight where people underestimated her and thought she'd be stomped. Lets see if her Flashpoint counterpart can keep this momentum while going up against an even more worthy opponent. We might immediately think Wally got this in the bag but even he know better than to underestimate the Amazon Queen.
So where's the preview? also is Wally West THAT powerful ??
There's no preview, the issue comes out next month. Only the cover is out so far.
Is Wally that powerful? Depends. In McDuffie's JLA, Amazo considered Wally a bigger threat than Superman. On paper, Wally could beat someone like Wonder Woman easily, and he does have quite a few actual feats to support that (he's stated he could drain all of Superman's speed and leave him completely immobile, he's moved so fast Wonder Woman was frozen in time relative to him, and Diana herself has said Wally could in theory hit her thousands of times before she could react), but his powers tend to be so potentially story-breaking that he's written down, pushed into the background or used for the Worf effect. You want to drum up a character's strength, have them overpower Superman. You want to drum up a character's speed, have them trip up the Flash. Johns himself wrote Barry as fast enough to leave Superman in the dust without much effort in Rebirth, but Barry is barely involved in his Justice League run. That level of power often doesn't fit in a team context unless we're talking about something like the Morrison/Waid/Kelly-era JLA where they fought cosmic threats rather than just zombies and fish people.
Wally in particular is so powerful than one of his writers, Marv Wolfman, said he had to deliberately write Wally as slower, weaker and not as smart as he actually is because otherwise there'd be no reason for him not to solo every problem his team went up against. Which, granted, could be said about a few other characters in team settings as well, but tends to be especially relevant for Flashes given that their power is essentially to be faster than every other living soul in their entire universe.
As for the actual fight, Wally might defeat her on his own or he might team up with Fastback to defeat her; either way I doubt she's going to win considering Flashpoint Wonder Woman is a pretty unlikable, unsympathetic character and Wally is a fan-favorite fighting to protect his kids from her.
@saren: It is well known in the comic world that when a story isn't good most fans will conform themselves with a good fight. It's the reason why so many stories of questionable quality can get away if the fight was good enough to distract most of the audience from the actual writing. I don't support this logic but it is the way it is.
No? I have no idea how this is supposed to be "well known".
@saren: Well you could say the same about Princess Diana. "On paper" no one's mightier than Wonder Woman. "On paper" she's almost as strong as Superman, as swift as Mercury, as wise as Athena, unrivaled in skill, she's well equipped with magic weapons and she's got no weaknesses. "On paper" Wonder Woman could slice Darkseid's head off and get the whole thing over with. "On paper" Wonder Woman is a far more formidable opponent than Superman yet somehow the stink of defeat clung to this nigh-invincible woman
@agent41: It definitely will be nice. It is not that hard to write good stories with a character like her. Tomasi is doing a better job than Finch IMO. I love how he's using Circe in order to try and break Wonder Woman emotionally and physically. I still confused as to why Finch has Diana and Donna feuding with each other.
@brunnhilde: On paper, Wonder Woman was never any of those things and never could do any of those things. Flash has literally been the Fastest Man Alive since the day he was created. And it's not just on paper, Wally has actually done a lot of that stuff, including fighting and defeating the same Mongul who curbstomped Wonder Woman, outracing death and the end of the universe, and being the only member of the League to defeat the White Martian sent after them in their original appearance when the Hyperclan were one-shotting people like Diana and Arthur.
Although I do perfer Barry to Wally, this is actually gonna be a pretty interesting story. I like this more ruthless Diana in contrast to her main counterpart who has fallen head over heels for Clark and is being roasted by her fellow sisters for being a bad leader. And how could I forget that she loves "everyone" now? Of course, most people obviously don't share this opinion with me so eh.
In the end, Wally's gonna win. He's the hero. She's an unlikeable (not for me) savage. And Wally is more powerful than her, if he were to go all out. Most likely FP Diana will surprise attack him.
@brunnhilde: On paper, Wonder Woman was never any of those things and never could do any of those things. Flash has literally been the Fastest Man Alive since the day he was created. And it's not just on paper, Wally has actually done a lot of that stuff, including fighting and defeating the same Mongul who curbstomped Wonder Woman, outracing death and the end of the universe, and being the only member of the League to defeat the White Martian sent after them in their original appearance when the Hyperclan were one-shotting people like Diana and Arthur.
Or is it that Wonder Woman's cup is always half-empty while Wally's is always half-full, I mean while Wally's triumph over Mongul and the White Martian seem to have elevated him in stature, going neck-and-neck with the Great Wally West does absolutely nothing for Wonder Woman's reputation. This matchup doesn't elevate Flashpoint Wonder Woman to Wally's level, on the contrary, you reckon that they'll have to bring him down to Wonder Woman's otherwise it's a walk in the park. It's just like when Superman destroys Sinestro's constructs, it's seen as a great feat of strength but when Wonder Woman breaks them, it's seen as an embarrassment to Sinestro. While men are defined by their greatest, most incredible accomplishments, Women are defined by their most embarrassing failures. Unfortunately Wonder Woman's had more than a few throughout her checkered career.
@saren: Well you could say the same about Princess Diana. "On paper" no one's mightier than Wonder Woman. "On paper" she's almost as strong as Superman, as swift as Mercury, as wise as Athena, unrivaled in skill, she's well equipped with magic weapons and she's got no weaknesses. "On paper" Wonder Woman could slice Darkseid's head off and get the whole thing over with. "On paper" Wonder Woman is a far more formidable opponent than Superman yet somehow the stink of defeat clung to this nigh-invincible woman, you know, much like Maxima.
WW is stronger than Hercules and faster than Mercury. But that doesn't make her invincible and she has never been the best figther either. She has been within a power level high enough to put up a good fight against Superman as well. And that is good enough. She doesnt need to be as powerfu as him to prove she is a top tier. Her weapons can kill characters above her level and they have done it. But that doesn't mean she will always win either. I wouldn't like a story where she is invincible. An epic legendary warrior must have real challenges or there won't be dynamism in the story.
I actually think she's considered the best fighter on the League.
I feel like a lot of Gods and mythological entities are kind of shafted, for no particular reason when they actually do get involved.
Arguably the most involvement they've had is Mercury giving Jay his powers on Earth-2.
I actually think she's considered the best fighter on the League.
You bring up some interesting points.. but just saying:
What if they refuse to? Some people aren't happy with Diana's demigoddess origin or the SM/WW relationship..
Typically, in the myths, wasn't it said that the gods couldn't get too involved with mortal affairs? I mean, they could meddle, but nothing more than that.
On here Wally West is unbeatable so you can forget that part of it.
I also like how this is only under the Wonder Woman section that is pretty hilarious.
But as for her, and Superman fighting and people thinking she would get completely stomped:
Everyone thinks it is such a stomp but obviously the writer doesn't and some even push more for Wonder Woman this became apparent when she was able to take Zod and Faora, while Superman was getting stomped by Zod alone. Some push for Superman however like when she was losing to Doomsday and Superman had to save her. The New-52 fights that they have are depicting them as equal, and on certain occasions one can get the upper hand on the other, but for the most part you can kind of see the writer is depicting them as equal fighting wise.
The only way Flashpoint WW wins is if DC has decided Wally is to be permanently retired as a Flash. Not impossible given his treatment with N52 ... Power levels have zero to do with it, he's the hero and she's a psycho warlord queen ... She only wins if they want Wally to vanish post-convergence, which seems unlikely.
@brunnhilde: Wonder Woman loses battles like all characters. It' well stated that wally can beat Superman as well. There is always going to be somebody more powerful. WW has won countless of battles. She has defeated Hercules,Mercury and Athena in many challenges of strength,speed and inteligent. She has given Superman a run for his money in all of their fights. Her feats clearly translate to vctories and achievements in terms of performing great feats. And what she respresents as a character has nothing to do with super powers.
Sure but showing Wonder Woman defeated time and again ad nauseam really doesn't help the readership develop a positive perception of the character. It's high time Wonder Woman started living up to her billing, particularly in elseworld stories
@44orhsaj: I'm a Wally fan too ... Red headed and goofy sarcastic Wally is my favorite Flash by a very long margin. Barry is fine, but Wally got screwed in N52
I feel like a lot of Gods and mythological entities are kind of shafted, for no particular reason when they actually do get involved.
Arguably the most involvement they've had is Mercury giving Jay his powers on Earth-2.
I actually think she's considered the best fighter on the League.
You bring up some interesting points.. but just saying:
What if they refuse to? Some people aren't happy with Diana's demigoddess origin or the SM/WW relationship..
Typically, in the myths, wasn't it said that the gods couldn't get too involved with mortal affairs? I mean, they could meddle, but nothing more than that.
Really? They consider her even above Batman?
Thank you, Super Soph.
And some people don't like a lot of stuff. Just don't mess with it if you don't like it.
Good point. However, I think when you have people like Superman and Martian Manhunter roaming the planet, the rules change.
I believe so. She's been trained since she was a child, hasn't she? She's arguably the best Amazonian fighter, so it makes sense.
@brunnhilde: On paper, Wonder Woman was never any of those things and never could do any of those things. Flash has literally been the Fastest Man Alive since the day he was created. And it's not just on paper, Wally has actually done a lot of that stuff, including fighting and defeating the same Mongul who curbstomped Wonder Woman, outracing death and the end of the universe, and being the only member of the League to defeat the White Martian sent after them in their original appearance when the Hyperclan were one-shotting people like Diana and Arthur.
Or is it that Wonder Woman's cup is always half-empty while Wally's is always half-full, I mean while Wally's triumph over Mongul and the White Martian seem to have elevated him in stature, going neck-and-neck with the Great Wally West does absolutely nothing for Wonder Woman's reputation. This matchup doesn't elevate Flashpoint Wonder Woman to Wally's level, on the contrary, you reckon that they'll have to bring him down to Wonder Woman's otherwise it's a walk in the park. It's just like when Superman destroys Sinestro's constructs, it's seen as a great feat of strength but when Wonder Woman breaks them, it's seen as an embarrassment to Sinestro. While men are defined by their greatest, most incredible accomplishments, Women are defined by their most embarrassing failures. Unfortunately Wonder Woman's had more than a few throughout her checkered career.
Does Batman fighting Wonder Woman elevate him to her level in your eyes, or do you think Wonder Woman's being written down to make it a fight?
@saren: There are two type of people that write for Batman: Batman fanboys and people that use logic. One writer allowed Batman to make Wonder Woman look bad and another had him barely stalemating Lady Shiva. The bigger question is which Batman writers are being more realistic?
@saren: There are two type of people that write for Batman: Batman fanboys and people that use logic. One writer allowed Batman to make Wonder Woman look bad and another had him barely stalemating Lady Shiva. The bigger question is which Batman writers are being more realistic?
There aren't just two types of people for anything, and if Batman hopped in a ten-ton robot suit, he'd smear the pavement with Shiva. That's why he doesn't pop into the suit for everything, and that's how the conventions of most serialized storytelling work.
@saren: It's very well established that Batman is a street-leveler, he's human (ish) hence bound by the limits of his human configuration. He can't rise very far above his species. Wonder Woman, on the other hand, has no such constraints, she holds an unspecified slot in the pyramid's highest echelon and she's actually been repeatedly said to be ranked 2nd behind Superman. So yeah it seems to me that Wonder Woman, unlike Wally and Superman, is defined by her failures rather than her triumphs.
@saren: Now mate why would he all of sudden need a suit to do things out of his league? Did writers realize that die hard readers would think those type of showings are bulls**t and rant? I could smear the pavement with you if I was in a ten-ton robot also. He doesn't need a suit at all when some writers just going write him as a "god" anyways.
@saren: It's very well established that Batman is a street-leveler, he's human (ish) hence bound by the limits of his human configuration. He can't rise very far above his species. Wonder Woman, on the other hand, has no such constraints, she holds an unspecified slot in the pyramid's highest echelon and she's actually been repeatedly said to be ranked 2nd behind Superman. So yeah it seems to me that Wonder Woman, unlike Wally and Superman, is defined by her failures rather than her triumphs.
Substitute Batman for any other character that's commonly thought to be below Wonder Woman in terms of how formidable they are as a combatant. Supergirl, for example. If Supergirl gets slated to fight Wonder Woman, would you think Kara was elevated to Diana's level?
She's defined by her failures if you want her to be. I could rattle off a long list of defeats for both Wally and Clark, but I'm confident the people on the Flash and Superman forums wouldn't sink into a crestfallen gloom and believe they were constantly undersold, degraded and disrespected because they're capable of seeing all the good things as well. Wonder Woman fans tend to have this chip on their shoulder that stops them from ever being happy about the character. If you want to seek out the worst possible interpretation of everything, there's not much that can be done.
@saren: Now mate why would he all of sudden need a suit to do things out of his league? Did writers realize that die hard readers would think those type of showings are bulls**t and rant? I could smear the pavement with you if I was in a ten-ton robot also. He doesn't need a suit at all when some writers just going write him as a "god" anyways.
The first question answers itself, and the rest is just babbling.
And some people don't like a lot of stuff. Just don't mess with it if you don't like it.
Good point. However, I think when you have people like Superman and Martian Manhunter roaming the planet, the rules change.
I believe so. She's been trained since she was a child, hasn't she? She's arguably the best Amazonian fighter, so it makes sense.
Heh. You're welcome. :)
Ah, I see. Okay then.
I agree with this, actually. The planet is filled with people who from myth, incredible powers and some in particular can literally hold the weight of the world. Actually, this has got me thinking, what if they did a mini or limited series on the gods from various pantheons?
Hasn't Bruce been training as well since he was young? Idk. But yes, regardless she is skilled.
And some people don't like a lot of stuff. Just don't mess with it if you don't like it.
Good point. However, I think when you have people like Superman and Martian Manhunter roaming the planet, the rules change.
I believe so. She's been trained since she was a child, hasn't she? She's arguably the best Amazonian fighter, so it makes sense.
Heh. You're welcome. :)
Ah, I see. Okay then.
I agree with this, actually. The planet is filled with people who from myth, incredible powers and some in particular can literally hold the weight of the world. Actually, this has got me thinking, what if they did a mini or limited series on the gods from various pantheons?
Hasn't Bruce been training as well since he was young? Idk. But yes, regardless she is skilled.
I think it would be fun. Realistically, since these are in the Public Domain, DC could do some great things with mythological characters, the same way Marvel has done for the Asgardians. Plus, I've always loved Greek and Roman Mythology, so anything that brings them to the forefront is cool by me. Same goes for lesser known religions like Voodoo/Hoodoo and the Lao, (I believe that's the spelling.) Vixen is also said to draw her powers from a divine source, and I'd like to see the Anansi the Spider character from Static Shock brought in.
I think so, but not as young as Diana, and her divine origins also probably play a part in her being a natural. It's like comparing Tim Drake and Dick Grayson. Wonder Woman is Grayson in that this should all come easy to her. Bruce is like Tim, in that he can do what Dick does to an extent but he has to work much harder for it.
Are we supposed to be cheering at the revolting Flashpoint depiction of Wonder Woman that was nothing but a figurehead for her backstabbing auntie and is partially responsible for the sinking of Europe and forced neutering/massacre of every male human onthe british isles and countless other atrocities?
This is the kind of garbage thats landed us with Wonder Woman #40.
@44orhsaj: I'm a Wally fan too ... Red headed and goofy sarcastic Wally is my favorite Flash by a very long margin. Barry is fine, but Wally got screwed in N52
Not as much as his fans did though. I'll never understand the decision to bring Barry back, when Wally is clearly the better character. Then they added insult to injury with the New 52 version, that was DC sticking up their middle finger.
@44orhsaj: I'm a Wally fan too ... Red headed and goofy sarcastic Wally is my favorite Flash by a very long margin. Barry is fine, but Wally got screwed in N52
Not as much as his fans did though. I'll never understand the decision to bring Barry back, when Wally is clearly the better character. Then they added insult to injury with the New 52 version, that was DC sticking up their middle finger.
Yeah. I felt like it was personally done to say "Barry's the permanent Flash now." I mean, I like Barry better, but yeah Wally's great..
Substitute Batman for any other character that's commonly thought to be below Wonder Woman in terms of how formidable they are as a combatant. Supergirl, for example. If Supergirl gets slated to fight Wonder Woman, would you think Kara was elevated to Diana's level?
She's defined by her failures if you want her to be. I could rattle off a long list of defeats for both Wally and Clark, but I'm confident the people on the Flash and Superman forums wouldn't sink into a crestfallen gloom and believe they were constantly undersold, degraded and disrespected because they're capable of seeing all the good things as well. Wonder Woman fans tend to have this chip on their shoulder that stops them from ever being happy about the character. If you want to seek out the worst possible interpretation of everything, there's not much that can be done.
If Supergirl were recurringly billed as DC's numero due and fought evenly with numero uno, I would think of Supergirl as a worthy, challenging adversary not just to Wally but to anyone in these Hunger Games. She's only thought to be below Wally by you and the battle-board folk. Suppose Wonder Woman dealt with Doomsday in smww, would that move her up the ladder like it did Wally or would you just chalk it up to pandering?
A lot of fans feel like Wonder Woman is undersold because she is. She's forgotten in all major events and when she's not, her role is being a motivation to Superman, a lover or just his lapdog which is a bit unpleasant and actually kind of messed up when you think that Wonder Woman's a member of DC's trinity, the top female superhero and how iconic she's become. You yourself say she's insignificant. Wonder Woman is basically like a bamboozle bean that's $3 apiece, you never know whether it's gonna taste like mud or chocolate or some other brown substance. However in good comic book fashion we place the onus on the fans that sustain the character.
I hate to say this but I'm rooting for Wally West. He's got more to lose and Wonder Woman is a bad*** villain here. It's because of the plot that I'm hoping Flash wins.
But I know, Diana will not go down easily. She's only weak in the battleboards which is really more opinion-based than anything else. If she wins, fine by me.
I apologize to all you fans if Wonder Woman is really being treated unfair. I don't read much of anything involving her so I can't do much. Don't let the way people are treating or portraying her change your perspective of the character. If you love her then continue to do so. That what happens when you throw a woman in a universe full of powerful men. She will always get in an situation where she looks inferior to them no matter how strong she is.
I also apologize that y'all have to deal with immature imbeciles on a daily basis just because they want their favorite character to look better. I know it gets annoying but y'all have to keep on smiling and ignore the hate :)
@somayareece: Tell me about it. It's hard to keep a cool head especially if they start to name-calling and throwing some insults as their tactics coz they don't know how to debate. Wonder Woman losing is fine by me as long as the story is good. And this issue is gonna be great. I love how Wally is given the burden to protect his city at all costs. He knows what's at stake. He's only human. A morally good human.
Flashpoint Diana meanwhile eats pressure like this for breakfast. Being an immortal warrior queen with no no qualms about killing, she knows what needs to be done.
It's not hard to root for Wally even if I have to go against my favorite character.
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