This part for me wasn't disgraceful at all. It was actually very sad. He was her mentor and he'd helped her in her quest to save Zeke when he didn't have to, and she had to kill him to keep the First Born from receiving his power. It wasn't like she completely blindsided Ares. The look he gave her said that that was what he wanted, and that he would much prefer dying at her hands than the alternative. Plus, through the whole story I've felt like Ares was old and tired, and he didn't want to go on any longer. It wasn't a disgraceful victory. It was a victory that came at a cost that deeply affected her. Just my opinion.

The god of war. Old and tired and just ready for a woman to take him out because he can't win a battle.

Homer be still in your grave!

This is what passes for great writing today.

New 52... how long before old Darkseid gives way to depression and let's a Maggie from the Simpson's put him out of his misery? That would make as much sense.

@sinisteri: Different strokes for different folks. Sorry you don't like it.

What are you talking about? Ares was completely humiliated every time he took to the battle field in the Iliad. Homer showed him as being practically the laughing stock of Olympus.

I like her demigoddess heritage better (tho technically, like Heracles in myth, Diana has ascended to full-blown deity status as the Goddess of War). So may have called her clay origin unique, and it certainly was. But now, it feels like she is part of a larger world. She has family now - real family. Real family issues, more personal friends, a whole new mythos surrounding her now.

And as petty as this is, her status as a goddess now opens the floodgates to allow he to become even more powerful - not just with punching like Supes, but with divine powers, like the other gods have. I couldn't have been happier with it.

@reactor:

Did you know Diana was the Goddess of Truth years ago, and she was treated much better then than now? Guess being a goddess now is in name only and doesn't come with respect or honor from the pantheon. Appollo offered her a chair so that he could use her amongst his number not as a measure of equality in his ranks.

Also, the former goddess WW without blood ties to the gods also had Devine powers. The bloodline was not a pre-requisite.

while that is true, that doesn't mean she doesn't care about hera at all, especially when you see how diana treats her following her decent to mortality

i already acknowledged that, doesn't change the fact that it's a rehash of every made out the ground plot none to man lol

so it's ok to change the backstory for the amazons but when it comes to wonder woman, that should be holy ground? if you read the new 52 arc you would know that only a select few besides the queen know the real circumstances of diana's birth.

uh et says hi. so does roswell. aliens are a duel edge sword when it comes to being depicted as either nice or bad. where as the amazons were portrayed as mostly hostile. nice try though.

well for one, instead of fearing their wrath her equal footing allows her to challenge their authority instead of pleading with them. and instead of going on errands to receive their help or favor, she can demand it. the reason she cant knock her troublesome siblings out the way is that she wants to avoid conflict and solve matters diplomatically among her new family. wanting her to do the opposite shows that your just nitpicking when in reality it's more consistent to her character.

see what the other said in regards to your last 2 points. you really are being selective with your memory on this one

Very briefly as a gimmick, and she ended up getting kicked out by them. Now there, she really was just a goddess in name only, and there is nothing wrong with WW having to prove her worth to the other gods before they just auto-rep her. In my opinion, now she has the potential to be a goddess both in name and in power.

And you know what, I like that she was a sculpted clay model, but I never knew the details about how the soul was placed inside her body. Is it true that her soul was fashioned with a combination of a male and female soul?

In Justice League, Hades didn't know that Hippolyta had a daughter, but then when the episode "The Balance" came, he told Diana that he and Hippolyta fashioned her clay body together. So...maybe, if there was truth to that, due to his separation from Hippolyta, he may have forgotten about that event that took place with her. I don't know.

I still think a storyline with Diana, Hippolyta, and Hades would be more interesting that whatever they've got going on now.

Meh, I like the Demigoddess Version better, never read any WW before other than this so I don't understand the hate.

hey WW fans i need some help http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/which-team-would-put-up-the-best-fight-against-the-1519764/#1

I find it strange how so many people have trouble wrapping their heads around the clay origin. How can it make her unrepeatable if 99% of origin myths involve the first man being created out of clay? It makes her exactly like the rest of us. Really what her old origin was about was her being a symbol for female independence. All the changes that have been made in the new 52 have been about taking away that independence.

@wonderwomanfan8: if written properly her being a child of zeus ain't bad she is not her father. Look at the percy jackson heroes of olympus series written damn good and they are also on a long list of bastard children of gods.

@primebonnick I just don't see what was so terribly wrong with her original origin. In my opinion, I feel like Azzarello changing how she was created after many years was like an easy way out for him. Was there no way that he could've worked the clay origin into his plot? I may be speculating here, but perhaps he may have thought his origin would've made it easier for him to write for her, or make her more 'relatable', or make sense of her powers, whatever that means. For me, I was content with Diana's closest tie with Zeus being her containing a portion of his power in her bracelets formed from fragments of his aegis shield.

For me, I wish her history with Hippolyta and Hades was explored more. I think it was an interesting storyline to go deeper into Hippolyta's relationship with him, as well as his claim to helping her fashion Diana from clay. And although Diana didn't seem to be too concerned by the claims he was making, it would've been interesting to go deeper as to why she wouldn't think her soul was created by a male and female soul breathing life into her, or to call into question the reason why she was made and what her mission in life would be. That seems more interesting than just being another super-powered love child.

But hey! That's just me.

@wonderwomanfan8:

There was a version in which the Amazons are reincarnated from abused and murdered women from the Stone Age. Hippolyta had been pregnant when killed, and this fueled her desire to have her unborn child.

The Amazons were enslaved by Hercules and his men. Part of the condition of their freedom by the gods was isolation on Paradise Island with the term that if any mortal man stepped foot on the island they would lose their immortality. They were distrustful of man and his need for war and conquering.

Somehow, some here seem to translate that into man hating women. As much as some say they hate that version of Amazion, they praise the new 52 version for being truly depicted as a rapist murdering society that somehow produced WW who only seems to favor the male god of war instrumental in her people's suffering and who keeps her mouth shout about the power and honor of being a woman.

This is a man's man WW.

What do you mean by this?

A WW dependent on her powerful male mentor and her powerful male allies.

you can keep regurgitating the same storyline from the original all you like, that doesn't change the fact that it's a. historically untrue b. irrelevant to the current storyline. it's funny how you have nothing to say about actual amazonian mythology's treatment of men but when the originals had it the other way around, it's a travesty.

@kidstandout:

If WW the comic suffered from what you seem to think was historically untrue then the character you think you are defending would not have survived beyond her first appearance back in a time you currently think is irrevelant.

It's funny how people base their love on new 52 WW on the truth of mythology on one hand claim on the other hand how the full fruition of that line of reasoning is why the original WW was so bad and needed to change.

The outcome of a society of women who raped and murdered men is not a woman who could care less about standing up for women while praising, living up to a male god and not once saying one word about the women who made her who she is.

Or are you saying Amazon mythology is all about praising Ares and males and denying female power solely by itself and of itself?

Not gonna get into this argument but bravo.eri said:

by the way historically acurate WTF, this isn´t mythology/greek history 101. Its a goddamn superhero comic. Just like the creator Superman took elements of the jewish diaspora, science, and cosmology to create a new modern mythos for superman, So did Marston take elements of Greek myth, feminism, and comic book mythology and synthesised it to create something new. He also did that with specific purpose and if you knew anything about wonder woman´s mythos Marston referenced the original myth of the Amazons, explaining why he changed it. This is a superhero story. wonder woman is a superhero, born of the atomic age, she is not some scholarly device to bore us with someones oh so clever take on Greek Mythology. Its boring, the story arch is boring. Stop trying to justify it by claiming accuracy. Once you have a world where people can fly and move planets, I think accuracy to history becomes a moot point don´t you?

@jphulk26:

Pretty much.

This. Clay all the way!

I like the Demi-Goddess idea more, it's closer to Greek Mythology.

in responce to your first post, the whole reason her original arc took off was mainly because marston wanted to depict women with empowerment. while that is a good thing, the way he went about it not only changed the mythology he used into one that distorts hercules, but comes off as radical and double standard. he gave a sympathetic view to a group of women who historically were as bad as their view of men in the original comics. that's as feminazi as it gets. amazon mythology is about showing how men and women are the same, we are all capable of doing atrocious things, not just men. but i didn't expect you to grasp that since your so quiet about what actually happened in the mythos as opposed to what happen in the original book.

as for your second response, guess what? when you use work that isn't yours and change the elements to suit your needs, that isn't creating something new. it's no different then writing fanfiction, all your doing warping characters and events to push your beliefs and message down peoples throats. and before you say the new52 ww is just as guilty of doing that, atleast their sticking with the actual mythos and making ww good inspite of it instead misrepresenting it. all superheroes are relevent to the history that is incorporated in their backstories, saying that because she is a super-hero, the writer has an excuse to change that history is a farce. if this were the other way around and the amazons became rapists and killers instead of victims, you would be throwing a bitch-fit and you know that. so why is it that marston gets a pass when he's panting them in a more positive light? i'm not saying you can't make your own version of myths or stories to suite a story your trying to tell but don't sit here and pretend that your version is the definative version or how things should be just because the characters are getting a rework to make them more sympathetic. and make up your mind, you prefer a rehash of the same storyline of the original comics but claim that the new 52 arcs are boring for incorporating the actual mythos which is ancient history? nostalgiotard detected, good day

#

For me, Zeus being her father doesn't really add anything noteworthy to her storyline. I was content with Diana's closest ties to Zeus being her containing a portion of his power in her bracelets. You want to give her a supporting cast? Fine. Great! But why not expand upon her previous support group? Where's Steve Trevor and Etta Candy?

It just seems like there's been an encroachment of overwhelming male influence for Wonder Woman in the new 52. She now has a father, who is the source of her power and strength. Instead of her Amazon training, she now owes her fighting prowess to War. Outside of her own title, she's in a relationship with Superman where it seems as if her character is being exploited to mainly benefit Superman...Just saying.

But steve trevor's purpose to be WW's love interest.Now that that role's been fulled by Superman,there is no point in introducing him in her stories.

@wonderwomanfan8:

Good points. Why is this version of a male centric WW the best version ever to some?

Did this WW even have one strong female role model or follow any female god ever?

It's also funny how she has fully embraced her "new" family without questioning the conflict of her past to her present or ever mentioning her Amazon training or heritage.

WW has been absorbed into the gods world as part of their story as much as she is Supes girl absorbed in his world.

Where are the powerful females in the title? There are more than 3 female gods.

Demigod gives her male influence for which she is depicted grateful and humbled for having.

Clay gave her patronage to Aphrodite, Athena and Artemis.

Getting rid of the clay removes her from the female gods devoting her existence to love, heart and intelligence in former depictions and positions her to dependence on male support, indefinite babysitting and living up to war's image.

should have been a poll , anyways I like the demi-god origin

She was made out of clay and blessed with her abilities by Olympian Gods. The original origin explained everything.

Oh, I definitely get that and I understand yeah, it's comics and anything can happen. I just feel that for me, Diana actually being a demi-god resonates to why she's so powerful figure, both in power and impact amongst the heroes in the universe. The whole clay thing and being blessed by the gods, I don't know dude :P

QFT. I could have enjoyed the current title more if there weren't the ridiculous origin of WW and the horrible and unnecessary history of the Amazons. I think it is just a cheap excuse to get rid of the Amazons and to focus on the gods. But really, it wouldn't make much a difference if she were made of clay in the current story. She would still be the champion with responsibility of the gods and she would do her best to find the truth behind all these mess.

@scorpio_cassadine: Isn't that a little harsh? Just because someone has a different view doesn't mean they can't think. And people like CitizenBane and Deranged Midget have said why they like the Demi-God more.

I don't know how long Azz is going to stay on Wonder Woman, but whoever takes over after him, I hope they just change the origin back.

dont expect nostalgiotards to be reasonable and unbiased. at the end of the day, the whole argument against the demi origin boils down to the fact that the new 52 ww appeals to men as well as women instead of just women. i just feel that the circumstances of the demi origin makes her relatable to everyone who picks up a WW comic, on top of being a more plausible explanation for her powers. there is something seriously wrong with people who refer to her as a man's WW or a women's WW. WW is not just a symbol, she is person above all us.i can understand the lack of female guidance(even though that role has been reversed in the form of her guiding zola through parenthood) but this whole "man's WW" nonsense is laughable. its just reinforcing the stereotype that when a male character appeals only to men its wrong but when a female character appeals only to women, it's empowerment. feminazi logic at its best lol

@kidstandout:

How is WW guiding Zola through parenthood? Did she teach her to change diapers and talk teething between panels or behind the scenes?

In the WW title, WW has not one female ally with the power to do anything equivalent to Orion or Ares. Pointing that out isn't nostalgia--- it is fact.

This WW is depicted dependent on males and thankful for males. When has she noted any gratitude toward any female during this run?

Women readers are probably falling all over themselves at this heroic image of a female grateful to males and surrounding by big, powerful men to help her because that is the ideal modern woman to females. Why is it Superman can handle multiple adventures singlehandedly while WW needs her make crew with her? Oh yeah, cause this "best" version of WW is not his equal.

@kidstandout: yea I agree a lot of what the people for clay are saying seems A: to just be for nostalgia B: saying its iconic while I had no idea she was made out of clay until. I read some of her comics and C: because Wondie should be purely Feminine with no males at all.

Do why know for a fact that the new origin was Azzarello's idea? I've kinda got the feeling that it was actually Geoff Johns's idea to change her origin and Azzarello just wrote a story to work that in.

Her clay origin, reminds me of the story of Pygmalion (and probably other myths) but i prefer that one :). Plus, the gods can give her whatever gift (superpower) they want.

Demi-god for me, it only makes her a female version of hercules, and those other kids gods left around earth :-p. In my opinion, the origin of a demigod has been over, and over played in the stories of hercules, plus marvel has some hercules guy running around.

@ancient_0f_days: For all that lack of knowlegde, i blame dc/wb. They only give spotlight to superman and batman, so in general most people know their origins, or are sick and tired of them. Other characters origins may be unknown to people who don't read comics. And probably those who do. I read comics, and i still have no clue of green arrow's origin, granted i don't watch arrow, nor read comics with him around, so i am to blame for it probably. :P Which makes me wonder.... i have to find out Vixen's origin. Time to do some research.

@gwhh: You should make this a poll.

I have to go with Clay blessed by the Gods. IMO its far more original and interesting.

Did anyone read Alex Ross's Justice? This isn't a major spoiler but one of the plot points is that the Cheetah uses a poison blessed by the Dark Gods on Wonder Woman that is slowly burning her out from the inside. Slowly she burns down to the clay she was sculpted from.

Ross really portrays the progression beautifully in the series and Diana's final fate is intrinsically tied to the fact that she was sculpted from clay. Its little things like that from the past 30 years of comics that makes me side with her clay origin.

This is certainly the most graphic depiction of what happens to her, but there are alot of parts during her progression that are really powerful.

@jhaigo99:

Agreed.

Great story.

@onemoreposter:

Also, it should be noted that some people confuse nostalgia with simply knowing history and simply having taste for something unique. Diana was not the first to be molded from clay, but it is not something common amongst her peers or the gods with whom she primarily interacts.

Iconic is not dependent on someone new to a character and/or character background knowing details they never knew. It would be like waiting on an infant to tell the U.S. That the flag was iconic and perhaps convey its history to the older folk. It's ok that you didn't know she was made from clay because that was an iconic detail before you were born.

The argument that people are not ok with WW having male allies clearly indicates a miscomprehension of point. She has had very welcomed powerful male allies throughout her history... The question you fail to acknowledge is why she has zero powerful female allies this entire run?

All weird that people who read about about a woman would be criticized for wanting to read more woman centered stories. Oh the crime!

@sinisteri: Did someone call us nostalgiatards? wow. I just think this conversation is not worth having. No matter how reasonably one points out how these changes were unnecessary, wouldn´t have happened to any of the main male characters, or how they´ve violated the character of wonder woman beyond recognition, so now not only is she truly a female superman (no wisdom, no animal empathy, no loving heart) but she´s pretty much just a different character from the last 75 years. I´d love to see how this so called amazing story would be doing if they were just honest and didn´t call it wonder woman (because it isn´t) and actually this was just some "sandman" like seperate comic published by DC. I´m sure it would be doing great.

Also people talk about being blessed by the Gods and becoming champion of the Gods makes less sense to them in terms of how she got her powers. I´m at a loss to understand why that is so difficult for people to understand. Its as simple as an alien getting powers from the yellow sun because his cells drink in the radiation, which allows him to fly. How the hell does that make sense? or a man who hit by a gamma bomb and turns into raging beast when he gets angry. or an Amazon who sleeps with the king of the gods and therefore they have a child with godly powers who learns to fly when she pricked by the feather of hermes. Please can someone explain why these origins are any more difficult or easy to wrap ones head around. What people couldn´t wrap there head around is a strong, wise, female protagonist with an original story that wasn´t a rip off of a male hero, or a woman who was powerful without men tutoring her and providing her with said power. Unwilling to admit this they turn to deceptive means such as "historical accuracy" to try and justify their own insecurity as men. The fact they feel challenged by women, or somehow resentful with the opportunities women get, as they feel that the movement for female equality has somehow turned to giving women advantages over men in society. Unable to deal with this anywhere they see depictions of strong, independent women, they feel threatened and frightened to their very core. That is why they attack wonder woman as a character, that is why the comicbook industry is so sexist and threre concept of a strong female protagonist is one with big boobs, ass, and somehow a sidekick to men. In their most honest private moments they know this to be the truth, wonder woman as a character threatened their masculine sensibilities. I know this because I´m a man, but heres what happens, one grows up and realizes these things aren´t a war, and every one suffers: women, men etc etc we may not be able to see it, but we all have problems. Once you break through and see this then you will realize just how slanted culture is in the representation of women, ethnic minorities, homosexuals etc and why they need there own heroes too.

I´m not a feminazi either, i´m just someone who can read between the lines of nonsense.

see i agree that the lack of female support is a valid critisism of her arc, but what does that have to do with this discussion? do you think her being made of clay would change this? this is the reason that "miscomprehension" seems more like a nostalgio-rant. this whole thread i've seen people make similar points as if WW being zeus's child is some how responsible for her lack of gal pals.

you can blame dc for not exposing WW enough but iconic generally means something most people would know without looking into the subject. the fact is the clay origin does not fit this description. playing the age card doesn't help since there are alot of people who didn't invest into WW until now compared to the cult following of yonder

well guess what, just because the story is about a women, doesn't mean it should cater only or more to women. especially when the women in question is seen as a hero to everyone. in one instance, you complain about her not being exposed enough for people to know the clay origin yet you also want to limit the audience WW appeals to. you see the hypocrisy in this?

fair point, but her being made into zeus child for no apparent reason is indicative of the problems in this arch. its a white wash through and through. everything wonder woman was and represented has been de-faced; mainly for shock value and in the name of "dark and gritty" and being more relatable. But for me this take is not darker or grittier or more relatable or mature, its just bad storytelling IMO. Greg Ruckas arch was darker and grittier, so was simones, and there was more potential to expand upon the ww mythos. these aren´t updates or changes, this is reinventing the character; the current ww has no relation whatsoever IMO opinion ton previous incarnations.

The lack of strong female allies in Diana's camp shows that there's a lack of strong female allies that she can get help from or identify with. There are men in her life now that have basically replaced the roles past women, including herself perhaps, have served. Her new father is the reason why she has her strength, and Mars is now the reason why she has the fighting prowess she does. But where does she get her loving heart from? Her patience? Her kindness?

You could say that the details about her clay origin are not widely known by the general public. That much might be true. But then, who's to blame for that? Is she at fault because she wasn't as popular as her male contemporaries? And if so, how can we fix the ignorance about her origin?

If you just asked random people on the street about how Wonder Woman came to be, how many would say "Oh, Wonder Woman? She's Zeus' daughter!" I don't think many would say that to be honest. However, if you were asked for random people to draw what Wonder Woman's costume looks like, I bet that many would draw what people refer to as the "bathing suit" costume. So while the details around her origin may not have been widely publicized, there are elements about her character that have resonated with people for many years now. Perhaps the focus has been too much on who Wonder Woman is and what she does/represents as opposed to who Diana is, what she wants out of life, and why she left Themyscira to begin with.

bravo.

see it's your seocond paragraph that makes me believe people with your sentiments are feminazis.

1 there is no such thing as an original story anymore. the concepts for both origins borrow from other stories like just about everything out nowadays. just because the demi one is more common doesn't mean the clay one is any more original.

2 it's not that the clay origin is hard grasp, it's hard to relate to. there is not a single person who can relate to the concept of being born from the ground. the closest people get to that is being an outcast but thats it. and just about every other character who shares this concept were either not fully human at first (Pinocchio) or the predecessor for humanity (adam and eve). the only plus it truly brings is making her different from everyone else, which is the exact opposite of being relatable. and it's really funny how her be given her powers from the gods is somehow more honorable then having to train and develop them.

3 what is deceptive about fact? its a valid claim backed up with indisputable evidence. i wonder how quick you would do the same if the facts were on your side.

4 are you trying to say that men as a whole feel threaten by female empowerment? incase you forgot, there were men in support of susan b anthony and the many other activists that spearheaded the womens rights movement. so before you continue panting that picture, stfu and listen. just because a man helps a women or vice versa does not make either of them inferior to the other. your just as bad for saying that as the sexist pigs running the comic book industry you seem to be rallying against. if a woman is just as capable of being strong, why does it matter who trained her? you can't preach equality and at the same time say that having her be mentored by men makes her seem weak or dependent. since you are a guy, you must be aware of the lose-lose situations us guys have to deal with all the time. hold the door and we see them as dependent, don't hold the door and we're classless deuchebags. don't even get me started on the numerous BS stereotypes we have to deal with bro. but back to the main point, WW doesn't have this distorted view that males are sexist pigs, in every arc i have read or heard about, she always believed in equality going bothways. she was activist for women but she didn't treat men like dogs. can you honestly tell me she would be just as effective a super hero if she stuck to the amazonian mindset and never left themyscira

I love these threads cause love wacthing people argue ALOT